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Origins: Leaving of Liverpool

DigiTrad:
LEAVING LIVERPOOL
LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (new version)


Related threads:
Lyr Req: Fare Thee Well? / Farewell (Bob Dylan) (9)
Lyr Add: The Leaving of Limerick (16)
Obscure Dylan song: Fare Thee Well? / Farewell (38)
Lyr/Chords Req: The Leaving of Liverpool (3)
Chords Req: Leaving of Liverpool (7)


Steve Parkes 03 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM
Leadfingers 03 Feb 04 - 11:52 AM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM
Ringer 03 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM
JedMarum 03 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM
Steve in Idaho 03 Feb 04 - 12:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM
Brakn 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM
JedMarum 03 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM
alanww 03 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Feb 04 - 01:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM
Little Robyn 03 Feb 04 - 01:44 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 03 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM
the lemonade lady 03 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM
DonMeixner 03 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM
alanww 03 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM
Herga Kitty 03 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM
dick greenhaus 03 Feb 04 - 05:38 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM
Lighter 03 Feb 04 - 06:29 PM
Malcolm Douglas 03 Feb 04 - 06:38 PM
Lighter 03 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Dolphin 03 Feb 04 - 06:54 PM
Gareth 03 Feb 04 - 07:04 PM
Blowzabella 03 Feb 04 - 07:10 PM
Liam's Brother 03 Feb 04 - 11:21 PM
Little Robyn 04 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 04 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM
Steve Parkes 04 Feb 04 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Chanteyranger 04 Feb 04 - 11:39 AM
Melani 04 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM
Liam's Brother 04 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM
Shanghaiceltic 04 Feb 04 - 11:51 PM
MartinRyan 08 Feb 04 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,An Púca 08 Feb 04 - 09:24 AM
MartinRyan 08 Feb 04 - 05:37 PM
Malcolm Douglas 08 Feb 04 - 06:55 PM
Gareth 08 Feb 04 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,satchel 08 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM
bfolkemer 11 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM
MartinRyan 11 Feb 04 - 01:17 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM
Gareth 11 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM
GEST 12 Nov 04 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,Toenails John 13 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM
GUEST,MV 16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM
GUEST 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 AM
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Subject: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM

There doesn't seem to be much variation in versions of the lyric in my experience, and a web search doesn't contradict that. Does this suggest it was originally a published song, by a known author, rather than a traditional anonymous song? There was a ship Davy Crockett, and the figurehead still exists in a museum in the US; I dare say there was a Captain Burgess too, which would date the song fairly accurately -- or at least give an earliest date.

Any more info?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:52 AM

Isnt this another 'Traditional' song that was actually written ( or
possibly ) assembled by the Liverpool Spinners ?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM

It seems that only one example of the song was ever recorded from tradition, with all modern forms deriving from that. It was published in Doerflinger's Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman (1951); he got it from an American, Dick Maitland, who, while bosun on the General Knox around 1885, had learned it one night from a Liverpool man. The song rapidly became popular with revival singers. Roy Palmer (Boxing the Compass, 2001) gives Burgess' captaincy of the Davy Crockett as 1863 to 1874, and reasons that the song dates from that period or a little after.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Ringer
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

I've always thought that the words and the tune were ill-matched. This is the song of a sailor leaving his girl and his home, but the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters.

I was delighted to find recently that John Prentice evidently agrees with me, because he sings it to a beautiful new tune of his own which is beautifully well-matched to the longing that can be heard in the words.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM

I heard a great , ripping, blue grass version of this song last year at the Tucson Folk Festival. The words/story had been Americanized, the band gave no explanation in their intro - and I suspect they had no idea where it came from.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:45 PM

Hey Jed - they have a CD or tape with their version of it?? My little group does it bluegrassy, well I do anyway, but would love to hear their version - and we do tend to move the song along -

Thanks
steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM

"... the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters." Only because that's the way people sing it. The tune can perfectly well be sung meditatively, to match the words, and, done that way, it matches them very well.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Brakn
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM

Awhile back, in Liverpool, someone told me this was originally called the Leaving of Limerick. I will find out more.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: JedMarum
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM

I don;t know if the Tucson folks have a recording. I don't remember who they are.

When I played with Eammons Kitchen we had an up tempo, blue-grassy groove to the song - and it worked well for us.

I've heard Danny Doyle do a
lovely, soulful version of the song - on a live recording he made at O'Flaherty's in New Orleans. The whole record is wonderful, by the way.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: alanww
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM

When I was in Mystic Seaport last October I looked up some info on the Crocket in their museum.
Apparently it was lauched there on 18 October 1853 and John Burgess, who as Malcolm says was the captain, lost his life overboard off the River Plate on his last journey before retirement on 25 June 1874. Now that's tough luck!
Any more useless facts, anyone?
"And Burgess is the captain of her ...!"
Alan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:26 PM

A little more in thread 17920, and chords. Leaving Liverpool

The hull plan of the clipper Davy Crockett is at American Memory (Item 20, Search "Liverpool"). Notes say "Hull plans for the ship Davy Crockett. Lines drawn by Edson I. Schock from a model by Carl C. Culter." The plan is at Mystic Seaport and is part of "Westward By Sea."

Not sure how it ties in, but the same notes say: "The Comet was a clipper ship built by George Greenman and Co. in 1853. She often sailed on the New York to San Francisco run but also made several voyages to Liverpool. Lost in 1899."
Were the two ships built to the same hull, or was the Comet re-named?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM

John Burgess...lost his life overboard..."

In the light of the verse below (which isn't the one in the DT, but I think I've heard it more often), the question occurs, "Did he fall, or was he pushed?":

"I have signed on a Yankee Clipper ship
Davy Crockett is her name
And Burgess is the Captain of her,
He's a bastard, and the Mate's the same.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:44 PM

Before we ever heard the Liverpool Spinners, I was singing the Bob Dylan modified version which is much more sentimental. Thank you Mr Zimmerman.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

Two dates for the loss of the Davy Crockett, 1874 and 1899, at the same museum!

Not that this has any bearing on the timing of the song's origin, except that the lyrics are post-1853. Not mentioned in either of the two books I have by Hugill.

I have a feeling that Brakn may be at least partly correct- The Burgess-Davy Crockett lines added by someone after seeing material at Mystic.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM

I always sing this in my head every time I have to leave Liverpool, and my Schantieman, and get on the train at Lime Street to go back to Bishop's Castle. (Actually the nearest station to BC is Craven Arms)

8-(

Sal


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM

I am aquainted with the family of John Burgess, the Captain of the Davy Crockett. I have seen the double lock dispatch box from the ship, several boarding passes and bills of laden from this ship. My friend Berta has significant documentation and artifacts from the ship itself.

If any one who is interested will email me I'll be speaking to her this very afternoon and ask her if she would share any of this history outside the family.

Don Meixner


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: alanww
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM

Q: I didn't say that the Crocket was lost in 1874, only that Burgess was lost overboard in that year.
I have no info on what the fate of Crocket was, except that it made many trips from Liverpool to New York and then on to San Fransisco and back, which apparently took around 261 days each way!
"And they say she's a floating shame!"
Alan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM

I'd normally be quite dubious about claims for an Irish antecedent for a song like The Leaving of Liverpool (mainly on the grounds that people are always saying things like that, but rarely seem able to back it up), but, according to Dan Milner, the suggestion came from Tom Munnelly, who I'd expect to be reliable on that sort of thing. I've never seen or heard The Leaving of Limerick, though. Is anyone able to quote it? Any reference to a traditional source would be useful, too; revival recordings may be of little help unless they provide substantive information. I know that Deirdre Scanlan, for example, has recorded a song of that title; but does she say anything about it?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM

Ringer

Yes, John Prentice does a lovely slow ballad version, and it's on his CD, the King's Shilling, but the melody is actually a harmony of the generally known tune.

Kitty


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM

That's rather what I guessed, without hearing it. Changing the speed and the mood of a tune can easily make people think it's a wholly different tune.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:38 PM

Like Rivers of Texas, Leaving of Liverpool is, for all purposes, a single-source song. There was a second source, for a somewhat different version, which Dick Swain played at a symposium at Mystic Sea Music Week a couple of years back, but everything any sings seems to be a re-working of Maitland's song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM

So what was that second source? Do you recall details?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:29 PM

Does anybody know for certain what Swain's source was? Hugill prints a version in his "Songs of the Sea." I'll put the words it in a separate thread right now.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:38 PM

Why a separate thread? This is the place to put it, surely?


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill)
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM

Stan Hugill published his version of the song in his last book, "Songs of the Sea" (1977)(all spellings sic):
^^
THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill)

    Fare-ye-well the Princess Landing Stage,
    River Mersey fare-ye-well.
    I am bound to Californaye-a.
    It's a place I know right well.

    CHO:
    So fare-ye-well, my own true love,
    When I return united we will be.
    It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me,
    But me darling when I thinks of ye.

    I'm bound to California,
    By way of ol' Cape Horn,
    An' I bet that I will curse the day
    An' the hour that I was born.

    I've shipped in a Yankee clipper ship,
    Davy Crockett is her name.
    Captain Burgess he is tough, me lads,
    And the mate he's just the same.

    'Tis me second passage with ol' Burgess,
    An' I think I knows him well.
    If a man's a sailor, he can get along,
    But if not, he's sure in hell.

    Fare-ye-well to Lower Frederick Street,
    Anson Place, and Parkee Lane.
    'Tis a long, long time, me bucko boys,
    Ere I see you again.

    So fare-ye-well my own true love,
    Goodbye, my love, goodbye.
    'Twill be a long, long time, my dear,
    But my darlin', don't ye cry.

Hugill's tune is virtually identical to Maitland's, as printed by Doerflinger. Of the song itself, Hugill states merely that Maitland's was "the first version to be printed." There is no way to tell whether Hugill heard this somewhat modified and shortened text at sea, or whether - perhaps more likely - it was simply his own adaptation of what he saw in Doerflinger.

BTW, versions containing the stanza beginning, "The sun is on the harbour, love..." appear to have originated with the Clancy Bros. and Tommy Makem, ca.1963.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Dolphin
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:54 PM

FACT The Leaving of Liverpool was collected by William Doerflinger from an old sailor who was a resident at Snug Harbor Staten Island New York. The is documentary evidence there to support this!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Gareth
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:04 PM

Hmmmm ! It all depends upon how it is sung

The Spinners version, a rollicking pub/concert version as a love song.

Other versions (I had a good tape untill some B****d torched my car) a contemplative ballad.

Fact to be bourne in mind.

The only hard and fast rule on ships names was only one name per port of registry thus we could have the "Davey Crocket" of New York, and the "Davey Crocket" of say Mobile.

Scond fact. In the days when I had a free run of the Lloyds of London libuary and records section have now long gone. I am working from memory but the commercial life of a wooden hull was not that long. The 'Perils of the Sea', decay, wear and tear, and commercial reality saw to that.

It is very possible that here were more than one "Davey Crocket" on the transatlantic run.

Again from Memory the "Black Ball Line" existed. It is also worth holding in mind that many an Irishperson left for the 'New World' via Liverpool. I do not believe that Liverpool and Limerick were not interchangeble.

Just the thoughts of a dilitante nautical historian

Gareth

PS On the Davey Crocket theme is there not a chanty involving Santa Anna ???


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Blowzabella
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:10 PM

More than one Gareth, but I'm sure there are many more expert than me to give detail (I'm a fan but not an expert - not enough to put anything on the page)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:21 PM

William Main Doerflinger recorded "The Leaving of Liverpool" from two sailors, both in New York City. Dick Maitland's version is the one in Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman as Malcolm points out above. The second version was from Patrick Tayleur and that has not been published. Captain Tayleur's version is very much free form and indicates to me that, possibly, he never actually sang the song himself but heard others do so. He knew the story line but not the actual poetry of it. When I asked Bill about it, he simply said Captain Tayleur did not sing "The Leaving of Liverpool." Bill was a very kind, courtly man. I did not press him but I believe he was telling me that Captain Tayleur did not have a real grasp on the song and it was a matter not worth pursuing.

To the best of my knowledge, Ewan MacColl was the first person to record "The Leaving of Liverpool" commercially. That's where I first heard it. It's a very nice rendition, slow and soulful. Lou Killen was one of the chorus singers at that session. Lou took up the song and he believes that Luke Kelly of the Dubliners, who was living in England at the time, probably heard it from him. Luke undoubtedly brought it to the Dubliners and the Clancy Brothers probably got it from them. Along the way, everything started to rhyme and "My darling when I think on you" became "My darling when I think on thee."

Bob Conroy and I were guests at the Aonach Paddy O'Brien a few years back and sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at a session. George Henderson, whose thoughts grace the Mudcat from time-to-time, was the moderator and asked Deirdre Scanlan to sing "The Leaving of Limerick" next. The melodies are very, very close and a number of similar themes occur in both songs. When I asked him later, Tom Munnelly told me that, like "The Leaving of Liverpool," "The Leaving of Limerick" (or "The Leaving of Ireland" as it's also known) is a very rare song. One sprang from the other.

Bill Doerflinger was a lovely and very interesting man. You can read about him at Bill Doerflinger tribute. I sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at Bill's memorial service.   

All the best,
Dan Milner


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Little Robyn
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

I've just refreshed the thread on Bob Dylan's version
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM

Malcolm

Deirdre Scanlon's recording is the only one I know of. I have a copy (somewhere) but, if memory serves, she gives little detail on source - and doesn't print the lyrics. Like you, I would trust Tommy Munnelly's comments. If I can find his current email address, I'll drop him a note.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:36 AM

The verse
Now the tug is waiting at the Pierhead
To take us down the stream,
Our sails are loosed and our anchor[']s stowed,
So I'll say fare thee well again.

doesn't sound as though it quite fits; it doesn't sound enough to me, somehow; and if the ship was already hitched to the tug, wouldn't he have been aboard long since?

I've always liked it sung rather slow and sad, like a real farewell for a two-year trip would be. It's a very good finishing-off song, especially as an encore to a more lively song.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:39 AM

BTW, the figurehead of the Davy Crockett is on exhibit in the museum at the park where I work, San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Melani
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM

Right, Chanteyranger. The one at Mystic is a bad copy of our original. Though I'm told Mystic is rather put out by our having the original, since the ship was actually built there.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM

Martin and Malcolm...

Deirdre's version comes from a lady who lives in or just outside her town, Neanagh. The name Nora Butler springs to mind. I hope that's not wrong.

My recollection of the conversation with Tom Munnelly is that "The Leaving of Limerick (or Ireland)" has been heard 4 times in Ireland. Three times in Munster (Tipperary once, Cork twice) and once at Malin Head where Martin and I will be in a few weeks time. The Malin Head version was never written down. The others were.

See you there Martin. All the best to you and Josephine.

Dan


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:51 PM

I have a referance to this as

' An English ballad popular also in Ireland'

Here is an intersting link to leaving Liverpool in 1848.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~dadds/leavingofliverpool.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 05:33 AM

Here's a quick transcription of Deirdre's version:
^^
As I roved out one evening, down by the Assembly Mall
I heard two lovers speaking as me and my love passed on
And the words that passed between them, they were but very few
Its not the leaving of Limerick that grieves me, but my darling, leaving you

In the morning when I am going, I will take you by the lily white hand
And I'll wave it oer my shoulder saying adieu to the Limerick strand
So farewell to the boys of Thomond Gate, It's to them I'll bid Adieu
Its not etc.

And now that we must be parted, I know you will understand
Why I must go broken hearted, far away from my native land
Though my fond love I must leave you, you know my heart is true
Its not etc.

The tune is recognisably related to The Leaving of Liverpool but very slow ( three minutes for three unaccompanied verses)and wistful. Beautifully sung by Deirdre.

I have slightly mixed feelings about printing the above words. It has always been my attitude that if someone asks me for a song - they get it, no question. That's how I was treated and that's how the whole thing works. But the thought of someone taking these words and trying to hammer it into the inflexible strait jacket of the typical way in which the Leaving of Liverpool is usually belted out......

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 09:24 AM

That's the way (Martin's text) Nora Butler sings the Leaving of Limerick so I'd say Liam's brother is right. Some Aussies around the site might have a recording of Nora singing it on a CD related to a tour of Australia by musicians and singers also including Séamus Connolly and Eileen O'Brien. One I heard in a friend's house over there a few years ago and I don't think there was any commercial release other than sales at concerts. I haven't seen it in Ireland. Nicky and Anne McAuliffe were also on that tour (a lot of fiddling talent on one jumbo jet) as well as Donie Nolan and Willie Fogarty as far as I can remember. Just in case people want to track down the recording from participants.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: MartinRyan
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 05:37 PM

Eileen O'Brien would quite likely be the connction to Deirdre Scanlon, OK

RTegards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, Martin. Do we have an earliest date for that? Leaving of Liverpool is, according to Doerflinger's source, at least as old as c.1885, so we ought to try to make sure that the relationship (unlikely, perhaps, but you never know) isn't in the other direction.

I notice that Limerick is now marked for harvesting. Might I just echo Martin's concern about it? As it happens, the midi file attached to the DT entry for Liverpool is very slow, but it wouldn't be appropriate to imply, as midi links in the DT often, by omitting all source information, do, that the tunes are interchangeable. We would do well to pull together a bit more information -and, if possible, a transcription of the tune- before closing the page on this one.

I notice, incidentally, that the DT file acknowledges neither Doerflinger nor Maitland, though it does mention recordings made by several well-known revival performers. It would be good to have the source information in the next update.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 06:56 PM

Mmmm ! - My orginal thoughts were that the "Leaving of Limerick" was a subtle varient of the " L of L'pool" Given these words I fear I was wrong.

But I will stand o my original comments regarding both Limerick and Liverpool being the gateway to the New World.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,satchel
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM

Dan Milner's (Liam's Brother) and guest-Dolphin's comments are the only ones that aren't based on pure speculation. Gareth, a self-proclaimed nautical historian, should keep his day job--please. Even a cursory search of Lloyd's registries wouold show that there was only one ship David (not "Davey," --he was in Congress, after all) Crockett, and the one built in Mystic, CT did indeed have a Captain John Burgess.   

Doerflinger collected the lovely song, it does not, when sung by someone who cares, sound like a rugby song, and yes, the folk process has been hard at work with this puppy for most of the 20th century.

There are plentiful sources to document this song completely, in all of its permutations--please stop guessing--this is how rumors get started. Oh, and while you're at it, don't bother to even read this post, because Milner and Dolphin are the only ones worth listening to.
--Cheers!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: bfolkemer
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

All,

Thanks for this discussion and the text of "Leaving of LImerick." Martin, please rest assured that I will not try to put it into the "strait jacket" of the tune I have for "Leaving of Liverpool." However, I'm eager to hear/see the music for "Leaving of Limerick." I have the capablility of turning an ABC file into a MIDI file, or converting written music into a MIDI file. If I can somehow get a recording, sheet music or an ABC from one of you, l will do that. Il probably need some help in putting it up on this site, but I'm sure I can learn to do that too.

Regards,

Beth


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 01:17 PM

It seems to me that we don't have any real evidence as to the order in which the two songs developed - nor any real idea of the time of origin. My own instinct, for what it's worth, is that the Limerick one may well precede the Liverpool one. It just seems more likely that an emigrant song got slightly roughed up by sailors than that a sailors song was made so gentle! but it IS speculation.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:09 PM

Just another song for which the only secure datum is time of publication. So far everything else is anecdotal. Interesting nevertheless.

Doerflinger's informant also may have modified a song to his taste and changed names or added the Burgess-David Crockett lines- this could have no bearing on the date and place of origin of the song.

The Mystic Museum has the name Davy Crockett for the ship; it was not a commissioned US naval vessel and at the time it was built Crockett already was in folk history and penny dreadfuls as Davy.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM

Guest Satchel -

If LR can confirm the name and existance, well find.

However I respectfully refer to my orginal post :-

"The only hard and fast rule on ships names was only one name per port of registry thus we could have the "Davey Crocket" of New York, and the "Davey Crocket" of say Mobile.

Scond fact. In the days when I had a free run of the Lloyds of London libuary and records section have now long gone. I am working from memory but the commercial life of a wooden hull was not that long. The 'Perils of the Sea', decay, wear and tear, and commercial reality saw to that.

It is very possible that here were more than one "Davey Crocket" on the transatlantic run."


Gareth


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GEST
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 03:41 PM

Some facts from Ships of the World: An Historical Encyclopedia, Houghton Mifflin:

David Crockett

Clipper (3m). L/B/D: 218.8 × 41 × 27 (66.7m × 12.5m × 8.2m). Tons: 1,679 bm. Hull: wood. Built: Greenman & Co., Mystic, Conn.; 1853.

Named for the celebrated American frontiersman and built for Handy & Everett's transatlantic packet trade between New York and Liverpool, the clipper David Crockett combined large carrying capacity with good speed and was regarded by some as "almost perfect." As it happened, she made only a few voyages on the transatlantic run before entering the Cape Horn run between New York and San Francisco under the house flag of Lawrence Giles and Company. In this hard trade, David Crockett proved one of the most successful clippers ever launched. Having cost $93,000 to build, by the time she quit the Cape Horn trade in 1883, after twenty-five passages from New York to San Francisco, she had earned a net profit of $500,000, and there is no record of any loss to her insurers for any cause. Sold first to Thomas Dunhams Nephew & Company and then to S. W. Carey, she was rerigged as a bark for service in the Atlantic. In 1890, after nearly four decades under sail, she was sold to Peter Wright & Son, of Philadelphia, and cut down for use as a coal barge "to any port where there is water enough to float her." With leg-of-mutton sails set from stump masts, in this ignominious work she ended her days around the turn of the century. Her figurehead, which was displayed only when in port, survives in the San Francisco Chamber of Commerce.
Howe & Matthews, American Clipper Ships.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,Toenails John
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:20 PM

I would agree with the leaving of Limerick theory, here's why.

I was told years ago that the leaving of liverpool was an Irish song. During our mass emigration to the UK and the states there were a few passages that a person could travel, one such route was to the states, via the port of Liverpool, where some emigrants jumped ship to make a go of life there, only to rejoin another ship later for the onward journey, having to leave again, whatever he has made his in liverpool, ie a relationship, while having no personal attachment to the actual town.

"It's not the leaving of liverpool that grieves me, but my darling when i think of you"

This theory has always held it's own for me, but i don't know if it is a 100%fact

I once heard a different version called The leaving of everything and all I love?? anyone know about that version or was it just somebody trying to be original (unsucsessfully!!)


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST,MV
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:48 AM

It's clear from the lyrics in the version most people know that the singer is a Liverpool based sailor and there's no connection to emigration.

The sailor has a fondness for parts of Liverpool that you wouldn't expect from someone recently arrived from Ireland before going on to America.

There doesn't seem to be any evidence to determine which came first Leaving Of Liverpool or Leaving Of Limerick. I consider this song a Liverpool sea shanty rather than an Irish folk song.

A lot of people seem to think this is an Irish folk song about emigration and this might have come about as a result of it being played by Irish folk groups and singers.

MV


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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:00 AM

Okay I'll take a guess at which version came first. I would suggest that the Liverpool version came before the Limerick version because the Limerick version reads to me like a more polite remake of the Liverpool version.

MV


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