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BS: Oil will run out
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: CarolC Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:04 PM And there's nothing like a big old oil spill (or a little one, for that matter) for killing birds and other kinds of wildlife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Pied Piper Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:22 AM Hydrogen does not need to be stored as a comprest gas Metal hydrides can be formed that absorb the gas reversible. Metal Hydride Storage PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Wolfgang Date: 07 May 04 - 06:20 AM I think this is an interesting article to this theme: It was supposed to be a green solution to the environmental crisis. But Britain's 'wind rush' - the world's fastest expansion of renewable energy - has split the green lobby and whipped up a storm of protest from a powerful coalition of countryside groups. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 07 May 04 - 07:14 AM Sooner or later, the oil will run out ----- Yes it will; but not in either of our lifetimes. There are numerous oil wells that have been capped in the U.S. because it is not cost effective, or political reasons that keep it being pumped from the ground. In the Anwar reserve (in Alaska) are billions of barrels of oil enough to replace ALL of the oil we buy from Saudi Arabia for the next 30 years. In World War II; germany developed a way to transform coal into petroleum, and there is enough coal in the U.S. to supply ALL of the current energy requirements for the next 400 years! Then there is the the renewable energy sources. In 1978-1884; I heated my home by burning wood. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 07 May 04 - 09:01 AM This is a really great discussion. Lots of information with no name calling. Oil will run out so pick your poison: 1. Coal burning plants- huge initial investment. Most polution 2. Gas burning plants- huge price volatility 3. Nuclear- very mixed signals. Clean air people love it because it is the cleanest energy. Others hate it because of storing waste. Bad press and huge safety issues (terrorists and regulations) make it hard to build more nuclear planats 4. Wind- very economical but an eyesore, noisy, and issue with birds. Amazing how many "environmentalists" are fighting them. THe best wind area in the country is from Minnesota to Texas 5. Solar- great concept but so far very expensive. In MIchigan where I live you can only get 40% of your energy needs from solar. 6. Hydro- great if you live in those areas. Very expensive anywhere else. 7. Geothermal- I have a geothermal heating and cooling system in my house. It has reduced our energy bills by $1,000 per year. It is very efficient (4 times a normal furnace/2 times a normal air conditioner) The problem is that it is more expensive than a conventional system and most people won't spend the initial investment. IN addition, the loop makes it harder to install so most builders want no part of it. The DOE used to promote it, but dropped funding. There may be about 1 million geothermal out there. If there were 20-50 million out there it would have a huge impact on our energy needs. Too bad- proven technology, highest comfort level, lower bills, no carbon monoxide, no outdoor unit. My guess is that we will not get into hydrogen or fuel cells until we have to. That seems to be the way things work. I hate to repeat myself, but this is my issue- so here goes. WHY NOT ENFORCE EXISTING BUILDING CODE LAWS? We have a national buidling code and 20 states don't meet it. My state of Michigan adopted the national code in 1994 and than repealed it in 1995. This has cost residents 900 million dollars in higher utility bills. (I am on the States energy committee) Our current building code is 60% lower than the national code. The only penalty was that we had to write a letter to the DOE explaining what we did. For political reasons we never even wrote the letter. Houses use more energy than cars. If we would just force the 20 states to adopt the national code (by reducing federal funds to states that don't) it could have a huge impact on our consumption of energy. That logic makes me a radical, but I continue to promote it. In addition to worrying about hydrogen cars, I say we need to insulate the basement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: s6k Date: 07 May 04 - 10:13 AM if we carry on as we are... 2040 we wont have any oil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: pussycat Date: 07 May 04 - 10:19 AM thats actually quite a scary prospect, and yet the thought of going backwards in development terms actually has a sort of nostalgic quality... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Amos Date: 07 May 04 - 10:42 AM Larry: Could you describe your geothermal system for me? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 08 May 04 - 01:36 PM if we carry on as we are... 2040 we wont have any oil ----- If you want to believe that; be my guest. There are THOUSANDS of oil wels that are already drilled and capped because it is not cost effective to pump the oil when oil gets as low as $20 a barrel. The reason it is not cost efective pu pump the oil that is here is because the U.S. has a higher cost of living, and U.S. Workers are paid a lot more, and there are environmental restrictions that cost oil producing companies millions of dollars. There is the Anwar reserve with BILLIONS of barrels or oil. It would replace all of the oil we buy from Saudi Arabia for the next 30 years. Then there is enogh coal (by using a technology developed in the second World War to supply current oil requirements for the next 400+ years. The probles is NOT an energy supply problem. It is the cost of U.S. workers, AND most importantly governmental regulations. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: pdq Date: 08 May 04 - 02:11 PM Great points by several people here. Remember though, every new human born is a new drain on a finite amount of natural resources. We really don't have an energy crisis, we have an overpopulation crisis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Ebbie Date: 08 May 04 - 02:47 PM Two bears, I live in Alaska and I have NEVER heard any such prediction as the statements you are making as to the amount of recoverable oil in ANWAR (Alaska National Wildlife Refuge). As for whether or how much it would reduce American dependence on foreign oil, until comparatively recently a hefty share of the oil brought down by pipeline from the North Slope was exported by the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: pdq Date: 08 May 04 - 03:25 PM Ebbie...the distribution of oil is world-wide and very carefully controlled. A barrel needed in Japan is going to go the shortest possible distance - it will actually come from Alaska, no matter who agreed to sell it to them on the open market. It will most likely be replaced by a barrel from Venezuela, which is refined in Florida, payed for by...around and around... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 11 May 04 - 10:20 PM Two bears, I live in Alaska and I have NEVER heard any such prediction as the statements you are making as to the amount of recoverable oil in ANWAR (Alaska National Wildlife Refuge). As for whether or how much it would reduce American dependence on foreign oil, until comparatively recently a hefty share of the oil brought down by pipeline from the North Slope was exported by the US. ----- I NEVER said that the Anwar would replace ALL of America's oil needs for 30 years. I use the qualifier that it would replace all of the oil that we import from Saudi Arabia. There IS a difference. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 11 May 04 - 10:29 PM Ebbie...the distribution of oil is world-wide and very carefully controlled. A barrel needed in Japan is going to go the shortest possible distance - it will actually come from Alaska, no matter who agreed to sell it to them on the open market. It will most likely be replaced by a barrel from Venezuela, which is refined in Florida, payed for by...around and around... ----- PDC; you are absolutely correct. Most of theredineries are on the East coast, and the Alaska oil is on the west coast. It makes more sence to sell the Alaskan oil to Japan, and other countries in the area instead of shipping the oil 15,000+ miles to go around South America, and bring the crude oil up the East coast. Oil is fungable. Sweet crude is sweet crude, and is sold at a set price for that specific day. They sell the Alaska oil to Japan, and other places, then they take that money and buy sweet crude on the East coast without the cost of oil going sky high to transport the oil down by North and South America, then Up the East coast. The tankers and most Navy ships are too large to pass through the Panama Canal. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Blackcatter Date: 11 May 04 - 10:34 PM We won't have to worry about oil running out - the coming plagues will kill nearly all of us off. Imagine AIDS and SAR together with a mortality rate of 80%. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Bobert Date: 11 May 04 - 10:45 PM Well, gol danged it, if we're gonna run ou6t of oil then lets at least do it during our watch so we can go down in history fir somethin'... I'm going down to my local Hummer dealer and order one. 7 miles per gallon? Hey, don't get no better than that... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dianavan Date: 12 May 04 - 01:56 AM GM has predicted that by 2025 over 50% of the automobiles in North America will powered by fuel cells. Apparently by day they are transportation and at night they are little power plants. It is also said that if you get in on it early, you will pay less for the hydrogen and you will be able to sell back your extra energy to the grid. Meanwhile, those that come along later, will be paying high prices for the energy you create. I'm not sure if I believe this but I am waiting to purchase a vehicle until they get these babies on the road at an affordable price. Diana P.S. I hope nobody tells the states that Canada has oil. We definitely do not want to be the object of any attention from Bush. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 12 May 04 - 02:55 AM GM has predicted that by 2025 over 50% of the automobiles in North America will powered by fuel cells. Apparently by day they are transportation and at night they are little power plants. It is also said that if you get in on it early, you will pay less for the hydrogen and you will be able to sell back your extra energy to the grid. Meanwhile, those that come along later, will be ----- Diana Hydrogen is the most abundant substance in the Universe, and sny high school kit in a chemistra lab can extract hydrogen from plain water. Water is H2O 2 molucules of hydrogen bomded to one molecule of Oxygen. Now to your second point. If you generate more energy that you need; you can sell the extra energy to the electric plant; but you will only be paid for the energy at the wholesale rate. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: MarkS Date: 12 May 04 - 09:50 AM How about using tidal energy to make electricity to separate seawater into hydrogen? Seems you could put in a facility that would not be environmentally harmful, the primary energy source (tides) are completely renewable, the raw material (water) is right there with the tides, and the plant could produce enough power to store the product. Just leave it alone and come by every few days to pick up the full containers and hook up the empties. Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 May 04 - 11:16 AM Right now it takes a lot of energy to produce that hydrogen--you'd have to fire up the coal burners to make the energy to make the hydrogen, a no-win situation. I doubt there is a technology that is available and affordable for that "tidal energy" recovery. Solar and wind are closest to being viable. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 12 May 04 - 11:19 AM In Germany they are doing some remarkable things with photo-voltaic cells and energy production. Here is something about it. They scoff at the little bit that Americans have done so far, and they're in a good position to hold that attitude. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dianavan Date: 12 May 04 - 12:52 PM two_bears - I'm way over my head, here. I got this information from a radio show the other night. I'll admit I was half listening but I was sure they were talking hydrogen. Maybe not. In fact, they were saying, GM has reconceptualized the car, stating that it was now a power plant at night and that the excess power could be sold. My daughter tells me that the hydogen fuel cell is not the answer in as much as the parts required also produce a great deal of pollution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Blackcatter Date: 12 May 04 - 02:38 PM While is still takes energy to creat the hydrogen, if it is done at large scale plants, the process is very efficient compared to millions of tiny internal combustion engines. A great deal less polluting too. Imagine our country using a similar system for elelctricity for homes and offices. Each of us having a generator in the back yard. Imagine how much more fuel and how much more pollution we'd need and have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 12 May 04 - 03:25 PM Amos: Sorry I am late getting back to you. I was away and haven't had a chance to check this site. A geothermal is a water source heat pump. (different than an air source heat pump) They operate very similar to a refrigerator or a water cooler that produces hot and cold water. It is listed as a renewable energy source. The way it works is that the earth remains a constand temperature below the frost line (5 feet deep) of 50-55 degrees. The geothermal system has loops buried under ground that uses this heat stored in the earth. Through a refrigerant and compression it converts the 50-55 degrees to 70 degrees (or whatever the desired temperature in the house) Because you always start at 50-55 degrees it is very efficient. About 350% -400% efficient on the heating side. (compared to 80-95% for a furnace) and a SEER rating of 14-22 on the cooling side (compared to 10-13 for an air conditioner) A geothermal unit looks like a furnce and has a thermostat that operates like a furnace. The only difference is that it has a reversing valve so it does both heating and cooling. NO need for an outside air conditioner. It also how no flame so it has no carbon monoxide. It is more comfortable than a conventional system. The only disadvantage is the initial cost for the loop in the ground. This can range from $1,000 to $12,000 more than a conventional system depending on the property being used. Imagine the savings in energy bills, polution, and energy needed if millions of people would use geothermal. And it would save them money in the long run. I live in a 2700 square foot house with a 1200 square foot basement in Michigan. (fairly cold weather) My total gas and electric bills for the year run from $1400-$1500. Let me know if you want more information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 May 04 - 03:37 PM What nobody seems to mention is that the reason we use oil is that it's CHEAPER than the alternatives, most of which have been around for decades. Large-scale plants for extracting hydrogen from water face the twin problems of a) it still takes a great deal of energy to split out the hydrogen and b) if you get a lot of hydrogen in one place, how do you get it to where it's needed. Most of oil's current alternative require expensive equipment (which in turn uses energy to produce) and high maintenance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Amos Date: 12 May 04 - 03:56 PM Well, so does the supply chain from crude down to petroleum. WHat we need is a methodology that uses renewable resources (tide, wind, light, etc.) to produce something portable (fuel cells or charged superbatteries) which can then be used in transport. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,robomatic Date: 12 May 04 - 05:08 PM I'm real impressed, there's been a lot more common sense than nonsense in this pile o'words. I've got two cents, or tuppence ha'penny: Alaska. I've worked around the oil 'bidness' up here for a few years and while there is a great deal of oil left up here, the rate of oil flow has already maxed out. The question here is if the U.S. will take advantage of the fact that there is more oil available (both in ANWR and NPRA). It will not threaten any endangered species. It will turn some pristine coastal land into non-pristine coastal land. It will not take the place of existing oil imports, it will simply defray having to increase our dependancy even more than it is right now. Hydrogen. As stated above, hydrogen comes from hydrocarbons in a process called 'reforming'. You feed natural gas into a reformer, you get out hydrogen which is your fuel and what do you know, you also get out hydrocarbon waste products. In theory you can reform any hydrocarbon fuel, but you have to deal with the waste products. Where fuel cells become efficient is when their heat output, which is usually extensive, can be utilized to keep living areas warm. (This procedure is also used with local diesel generators and sometimes called co-generation). Wind & Solar. Other folks have already had plenty of information on these, they are wonderful local energy sources but they aren't 'friendly' in that when you need the power you can't count on the wind to be blowing enough or the clouds to be out of the way of the sun. Wind & Solar can be used to supplement a power grid, i.e. help take care of the base energy demands. You still need generators to keep up with the sudden demands. The other thing going on right now is that design and manufacturing of better generators and more efficient and cheaper solar arrays is happening at such a pace that whatever you buy, you can be sure something cheaper and better will be available next year. So a lot of people sit on the fence, manufacturers can't find buyers and development gets stalled. And here is where we are facing lack of leadership on the part of our political leaders. How about some CONSERVATION? How about mandating that the automobile companies live up to their fleet averages and closing the loophole that lets them sell Ford Excursions and GM Hummers as 'trucks' and doesn't require them to be counted in the fleet averages? Ultimately, the market will sort things out. You've probably seen LED flashlights hit the market, LED turn signals, and now LED traffic lights. Pretty soon we'll be able to light houses with LEDs, heavy loads like television sets and computer terminals should become a great deal more efficient, and other gains will get made. Oil will creep up in price but we won't need as much. As for predictions, I think you'll find that real scientists are not making predictions, just some media gurus and they're probably using weasel words that the broadcasters edit out. I remember in about 1999 when the price of oil went down to $9 a barrel and there were media 'experts' saying that could last for 5-10 years. So take predictions with a grain of salt. Oil will not suddenly run out. And as it goes up in price, a whole lot more energy sources become available. The real danger is that at some point China could go to high sulfur coal in a big way, and we folks living downwind will suffer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 May 04 - 08:07 PM I once stated in a magazine article, "Predicting future energy costs and availability requires balls--either crystal or brass" Sooner or later fossil fuel will become too expensive, and several alternatives will replace them--problem is that alternatives need government subsidies to compete at present.Consevation is, of course, the simplest and safest alternative. Birth control wouldn't hurt, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST Date: 12 May 04 - 08:42 PM Oil will run out! That's why the power companies are pushing LNG down our throats in Casco Bay. Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Bobert Date: 12 May 04 - 08:50 PM Well gol danged tree huggin' commies, far as I can see... Well, I went tdown to the Hummer dealer but they is back ordered 6 months so what I do? Well, I'll tell ya... Seein' as Dick Cheney thinks we need to consume more oil to keep America great I had to do my part so Iz taken to drivin' my 1976 M880 military truck everywhere I need to go and leaving the Toyota parked... Hey, this is America. Home of the brave an' land of the free and I gotta burn up a hundred gallons of oil a week then no pinko gay marriage supportin' commie gonna stand in my way unless they wanta get their bell bottomed, Red Book readin', flower child seffs driven over by my 7 mph M880. No sir! This is America, dang it... Hey, answer me this one if you will... If it wasn't important to burn up this oil as fast as we can then how comes the Big Three auto makers are bilding so many 500 horsepower cars and SUV's? Yeah answer me that one and don't go bad mouthin' Henry Ford either 'cause he was a good American. Yep, answer me that one, will ya? Stroker Ace Bobert (new and improved) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,petr Date: 12 May 04 - 09:38 PM hey robomatic, good points there. no matter how many other oil reserves there are, (the amount is questionable anyway since Shell just got into trouble for overestimating its reserves and a lot of other big oil is probably doing that as well) the easiest and cheapest to extract crude is in Saudi. there are also many diff. kinds of crude (venezuelan is different than Saudi crude) Id say that CHina is indeed the wild card. It has over the last 20 years averaged 8% growth. Its no longer streets of bicycles either, and pollution has become a big problem. (A lot is due to people heating their homes with compressed coal cakes) The govt is trying to keep employment up, but has already forced many of the old polluting steel mills to close down or upgrade. If it should decide to implement, car pollution controls (no matter how stringent, the fossil fuel based cars will still pollute) on the other hand fuel cell vehicles would not. And you can bet with a billion strong market the big automakers would fight each other to make it work. sure right now the easiest way to extract hydrogen is reforming from natural gas, which still results in greenhouse gases. Electrolysis for instance is quite expensive. But one of the advantages of larger fuels cells is they make clean water (a plus isolated villages or places where water is a problem) also the whole idea of a distributed power generation system allows for less dependence on an old creaky electrical grid which can be an easy terrorist target. One tree fell over last summer and 50million people were without electricity in the worst blackout in history. a lot of large corporations, banks etc are installing fuel cell back up power supplies right now. A chip manufacturer lost 30million$ in production with a 1 hour power failure. plus I think quieter streets, cleaner air, and less dependence on fossil fuels from unstable parts of the world would be another plus. petr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Bobert Date: 12 May 04 - 10:09 PM Ahhhh, excuse me but this hydrogen that everyone keeps talkin' 'bout uses up a lot of energy to create since electricity is needed to make it... Now me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule ahve figured that if it takes an equivalent amount of coal or oil to produce the electricity neeed to free up the hyogen and the energy of the hydrgen is roughly equivalent to the amount of energy that would have been produced by just using the coal or oil, like why the big push for hydrogen? Hey, just askin? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Blackcatter Date: 12 May 04 - 11:30 PM Bobert - It's useful for vehicles because internal combusion engins are extremely wasteful and polluting compared to powerplants. Imagine that you p-roduce all the electricity for your house from a generator at your house - yo'd probably be using 3 or 4 times the amount of fuel to do so and probably producing over 10 times the pollution at the powerpnat down the road does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dianavan Date: 13 May 04 - 12:21 AM Bobert - I wonder how much oil it takes to run a war? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 13 May 04 - 07:24 AM Hey, answer me this one if you will... If it wasn't important to burn up this oil as fast as we can then how comes the Big Three auto makers are bilding so many 500 horsepower cars and SUV's? Yeah answer me that one and don't go bad mouthin' The problems goes back to when the covernment destroyed the family car the station wagon. The Station wagons were heavier, and could not conform to the CAFE standards applied to cars. After the Station Wagon was taken off the table; they needed larger cars to carry the family, sports equipment, etc; so Vans and SUVs became popular, These are built on truck frames, and they are not forced to meed the same CAFE standards for cars. I would much rather have a family in a station wagon that gets 17 MPG than in an SUV that is lucky to get 12 MPG. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Bugface Date: 13 May 04 - 07:30 AM science should look into recycling the biproducts in smokers lungs, everyone would benefit from that. Plus it's a great way to scare children, don't put that cig in your mouth or I'll be putting your arse into my petrol tank for the next year! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Two_bears Date: 13 May 04 - 07:30 AM Ahhhh, excuse me but this hydrogen that everyone keeps talkin' 'bout uses up a lot of energy to create since electricity is needed to make it... Now me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule ahve figured that if it takes an equivalent amount of coal or oil to produce the electricity neeed to free up the hyogen and the energy of the hydrgen is roughly equivalent to the amount of energy that would have been produced by just using the coal or oil, like why the big push for hydrogen? Doesn't it concern anyone that hydrogen was the lighter than air gas that was used for the HINDENBURG? Hydrogen is an excelent fuel because the Sun has been burning Hydrogen for roughly 4.5 billion years. I am just concerned; that car fueled with hydrogen will become fire bombs ; in accidents. Two Bears |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Wolfgang Date: 13 May 04 - 09:37 AM If the hydrogen was produced the way described by you, Two Bears, the situation would be worse than it is now. The hydrogen technology only makes sense, economically and environmentally, if the hydrogen is produced by a cleaner and preferably cheap renewable source. Why not use the renewable source directly? Well, wind doesn't blow all the time and sometimes the sun doesn't shine. Hydrogen is a good and transportable storage of energy which makes it attractive. Whenever energy is stored there is danger (dams can burst etc.). I wouldn't like to sit in a car with a fluid hydrogen tank or a very big gas tank. Thankfully, there are safer methods to transport hydrogen. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: MarkS Date: 13 May 04 - 10:22 AM I am just concerned; that car fueled with hydrogen will become fire bombs ; in accidents. They already are; when you drive you sit almost on top of a tank of highly explosive gasoline. If a car were fitted with enough hydrogen to go the same mileage as a tank of gasoline, your risk would probably be reduced, since hydrogen is lighter than air and would rise in the event the tank was breached. Also, figure on the fuel tanks being made of a material stronger than the fabric which contained the hydrogen in the Hindenburg. |
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Subject: Oh the Humanity From: robomatic Date: 13 May 04 - 11:04 AM petr: What you say is true, and I would say that what we should have government taking the lead on is financing technological development, NOT commercial development. Government should be used to advance technology in ways that aide and protect the people. Our capitalist system is quite efficient at filtering out what actually works from what is not productive. Case in point. A company out there is very self-promoting in claiming that it can provide transportation vehicles with fuel cells. What I've been told by people in the know is that in fact their fuel cell technology is inadequate, and the units need to be replaced after a very short time. Another point, as with bio-research, if patents are going to be awarded over vital matters of biology and technology, I would rather the people own them. That's why I think government cooperation with research can be a good thing. The point I made about wind and solar power being a good source of investment by government is arguable either way. I don't suggest that governments invest in sure losses (although this happens again and again in reality) but that, say, a handy limited range postal delivery cab might be something worth government interest. Speed and range will be less of an issue, and it will give industry of scale a boost. Likewise with government buying solar power arrays for powering remote weather reporting systems. (There's a neat unit in mid-Alaska used to power a railroad crossing that uses wind, solar, and battery storage, but damned if I can find out who designed it or paid for it - It's a hundred miles from the grid). THE GRID. The grid is a wonder of the modern world. I don't know if Europe or Asia has anything to compare with what holds North America together. It won't go away in a hurry. It allows power to be united from the great hydro stations of the west with the big coal burners of the middle and keep lights on in the east. It allows power to be shifted from the areas that don't need their lights on to those that do, and from the areas that don't need their air conditioners on to those that do. The alternative technologies we are talking about are in early stages of development, and have the problem I mentioned already of not meeting immediate demand. HYDROGEN Hydrogen has taken a bit of a bad press on being thought of as explosive, particularly when your average fox network news can so readily lay a hand to a film clip of the Hindenberg going down as the hydrogen goes up. Recent research indicates that the material used to dope the zeppelin's outer covering had the same formulation as modern solid rocket fuel. One nice thing about hydrogen (if you're outdoors) is that if you have a major malfunction your problems go 'up' and don't go flowing all around vulnerable property. Nevertheless, hydrogen as fuel faces significant technological development (Euphemism for not ready for prime time). Storage of Hydrogen. Hydrogen is the lightest element, it's a sneaky little atom, when pressurizing a tank, it also goes through the metal of the tank, kind of like air will seap out of a balloon. You won't want to leave your car alone for a few days in a closed garage where welding is going on. There are claims that there is a solution to this called 'hydriding', a solid material soaks up the hydrogen like a sponge. EFFICIENCY The Toyota Prius uses a battery to augment an internal combustion engine which by itself is undersized for the size of the car. The car is powered by electric motor acting alone off a battery, the engine charging the battery for the electric motor, or the gasoline engine physically linked to the electric motor to obtain maximum power to the wheels. One other important thing: When braking, part of the braking action is obtained by driving the electric motor from the wheels, turning it into a generator, and recharging the battery. This works well enough so that the reported miles per gallon is higher in stop and go city traffic than in highway driving. ENERGY Unless a fuel cell car incorporates such a recovery process, it may not be as efficient as today's Prius. Other things they don't necessarily tell you: A battery can only charge and discharge so fast because the chemical action that stores the energy is limited by the surface area to which the battery chemicals are exposed, and just as important is the temperature of the battery and its contents. This is also true of fuel cells, which act a great deal like batteries. A way to think of a fuel cell is that it is a battery you can re-charge with fuel. Well, a cold fuel cell is not a happy fuel cell. Some fuel cells have to be many hundreds of degrees up there to be happy. Another item that has been tried is to use a capacitor in addition to a battery. A capacitor is kind of like a battery with no electrolyte. It can store a charge of electricity with no chemical action, i.e. almost instantly. A capacitor doesn't usually care about the temperature. Unfortunately if something goes wrong, it can discharge almost instantly, too! What all this adds up to is that we are facing a lot of interesting challenges, and a lot of us are going to have a great deal of fun making things work and writing up why they didn't. This is a great time to be an electrical engineer! I think it would also be fun to work for consumer reports or som outfit that's going to test-crash all this new stuff and see what happens. As the song says, "The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 May 04 - 12:09 PM All right, It's time for me to sound off on one of my favorite topics. Everybody's lookung for the big, dramatic solution. Partial solutiond can have a tremendous impact without major disruption of anything. F'rinstance, putting a water tank in the attic and using it to supply water to your heater can cut summertime water heating costs in half--you just have to install valving to drain and bypass this tank when the weather gets below freezing. Using today's automotive technology on smaller engines and lighter cars instead of SUVs could cut fuel consumption by half--I recall getting speeding tickets with a FIAT 600 featuring 28 hp, so I'm not sure that 250+hp is needed. Geothermal-sourced heat pumps/air conditioners make a great deal of sense for large portions of the country. Solar-powered air conditioning for SunBelt areas make a helluva lot more sense than solar heating for the North East. AND THERE'S ALWAYS CONSERVATION. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Bobert Date: 13 May 04 - 01:06 PM Yeah, where's Jimmy Carter when we need him the most.. Heck, we got Dick Cheney, an oilman, holing up with a bunch of other oilmen to come up with America's "eneregy policy" and guess what? Ain't too much in it, if anything, about "conservation"??? It all geared toward "consumption"!!! How utterly narcisitic and arrogance... Robomatic, Thanks for yer thoughtful and time consuming post. It was well written and definately woke up a few sleepy brain cells... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: Kim C Date: 13 May 04 - 01:42 PM Let's find a way to use garbage instead. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 13 May 04 - 01:54 PM I agree with partial solutions and using what we have now while at the same time working on better solutions. We have compact florescent light bulbs. They use only 1/4th the wattage of regular light bulbs and last 10 times as long. They have come way down in price ($15 to $3) They used to be hard to find and only 1% of the market. Today they are 25% of the market and growing. (maybe more- my date is 1 year old) Someone asked about LED lighting for the house. I have just added LED night lights to my product line of indoor and outdoor lighting for my company. I think I am one of the first promoting these. The nightlights last 100,000 hours (between 10 and 20 years) only use 1/4 of a watt, and cost only 20 cents a year to operate. I am working on prototypes for LED outdoor post lights for the yard. I am hoping to have these on the market this year. These are simple things we can use right now. To answer the question about why Detroit is making Hummers. That is simple. Because people are buying them. Silly thing about business people. They tend to make what people want to buy. When more people want to buy hybrids, they will make more hybrids. Lets critisize car companies for giving customer what they want. The good news is that Hummer sales are way down this year. I am surprized you had a 6 month wait. In Michigan you can get one right away. They will probably even throw in a free tank of gas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: MarkS Date: 13 May 04 - 02:57 PM Let's find a way to use garbage instead. Kim - If I am not mistaken, we do. I believe both Philadelphia and New York are already running "trash to steam" plants to generate electricity. Cant say anything about how efficient it is, but it sure sounds like a good way to get rid of the trash and turn it into something useful instead,' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: GUEST,Aston University (Josh) Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:17 AM It is ur democratic right to vote America. Please vote for a president who is not so ignorant to the future troubles your children will suffer. Please help get the Kyoto protocol through. You are the biggest consumer of Oil in the world. Blood will be on your hands as well as the rest of us. Time to act now, not later!! Good discussion! Josh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: el ted Date: 12 Aug 04 - 08:44 AM 97 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: el ted Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:04 AM 98 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: el ted Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM 99 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Oil will run out From: el ted Date: 12 Aug 04 - 10:18 AM 100. hello wilfried! |
