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Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?

DigiTrad:
GILGARRY MOUNTAIN (There's whiskey in the jar)
WHISKEY, YOU'RE THE DIVIL


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: Musha ringum duram da... (115)
meaning - musha ring dumma do dumma da (99)
(origins) Origins: Whiskey In The Jar (164)
Firearms query from 'Whiskey in the Jar' (72)
Whiskey in the Jar by the young fellow (2)
Lyr Req: Whisky in the Jar parody (10)
Whiskey in the Jar (36)
Lyr Req: Whisky in Jar, Jug of Punch (23)
Lyr Req: Scriptures on the wall (2)
Lyr Req: Tequila in the jar (8)
Lyr Req: Bold Lovell (6)
Lord, There's alot of Whiskey in the jar (19)
Why is Whisky In The Jar... (32)
Whiskey in the Jar (12)
Tune Req: Whisky in the Jar (4)
Gilgarry Mountain a/k/a Whiskey in the Jar (14)
Lyr Req: Whiskey in the Jar (2) (closed)


GUEST,Len Wallace 04 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM
Joe Offer 04 Feb 04 - 12:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 04 Feb 04 - 12:41 PM
Clinton Hammond 04 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM
Leadfingers 04 Feb 04 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Jeremiah McCaw 04 Feb 04 - 02:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM
bill\sables 04 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Feb 04 - 03:13 PM
Banjo-Flower 04 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM
Cluin 04 Feb 04 - 05:37 PM
cobber 04 Feb 04 - 05:40 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Feb 04 - 06:02 PM
Bob Bolton 04 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM
Bob Bolton 04 Feb 04 - 06:24 PM
Joybell 04 Feb 04 - 06:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Feb 04 - 07:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 04 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM
Malcolm Douglas 04 Feb 04 - 10:25 PM
GUEST 13 Jul 04 - 10:26 AM
Amos 13 Jul 04 - 10:39 AM
Desert Dancer 13 Jul 04 - 06:18 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Jul 04 - 09:26 PM
UB Ed 13 Jul 04 - 09:59 PM
Mudlark 13 Jul 04 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Jul 04 - 02:58 PM
greg stephens 14 Jul 04 - 03:13 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 04 - 03:54 PM
Nerd 14 Jul 04 - 03:59 PM
emjay 14 Jul 04 - 04:14 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Jul 04 - 05:14 PM
Bernard 14 Jul 04 - 08:49 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Jul 04 - 08:55 PM
Nerd 15 Jul 04 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Jul 04 - 11:02 AM
Nerd 16 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Jul 04 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Arne Langsetmo 16 Jul 04 - 03:30 PM
fumblefingers 19 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Liberty_Hops 19 Dec 06 - 05:25 PM
Dazbo 20 Dec 06 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Ole Bull 20 Dec 06 - 11:07 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,JTT 20 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Harlan 20 Dec 06 - 09:21 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 20 Dec 06 - 09:56 PM
GUEST,Terry K 21 Dec 06 - 03:06 AM
Dazbo 21 Dec 06 - 03:19 AM
Malcolm Douglas 21 Dec 06 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,JTT 21 Dec 06 - 04:01 AM
Dazbo 21 Dec 06 - 05:08 AM
GUEST,JTT 21 Dec 06 - 09:28 AM
Scrump 21 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,Ole Bull 21 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Hamish 21 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 21 Dec 06 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,guest 23 Mar 10 - 02:08 PM
Tootler 23 Mar 10 - 03:25 PM
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Subject: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM

Hello Mudcatliners,

Okay - - "Whiskey in the Jar" or "Kilgary Mountain". I heard a number stories about its origins. I know it's considered Irish, but it also may have Appalachian origins. Anyone know?

Also, The Black Velvet Band. First line is usually sung as "In a neat little town they call Belfast", but aren't there versions which could place it as English in origin?

thanks gang.

Len Wallace


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:40 PM

I've wondered the same - It seems that if we find a European version of a traditional American song, we assume the song must have originally come from Europe. Are there songs that went the other way across the Atlantic, beginning in the U.S. and then migrating to Europe?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:41 PM

Your questions have all been answered in some detail in earlier discussions archived here. Have a stab at the search engine ("Lyrics and Knowledge Searcg" at the top of this page).


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

"Have a stab at the search engine"

Except that the search engine is so convoluted and twisted in it's implementation, it's just easier to re-ask the same questions over and over and over...

Especially if one is NOT particularly net savvy...

Like MOST people @ Mudcat aren't....


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:27 PM

There is an American Burlesque song about a Little Brown Jug written in the late eighteen hundreds that was 'Collected' as a traditional
song in England about ten years after it was published in America.
'My Pretty Little Brown Jug That I Love Dear' Which seems to have a lot in common lyricwise with Good Ale.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Jeremiah McCaw
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:01 PM

Off the original subject, but in answer to Joe's query:

"Are there songs that went the other way across the Atlantic, beginning in the U.S. and then migrating to Europe?"

Assuming my info is correct (always problematic where origins of folk music is concerned), there a Quebecois fiddle tune called "Reel de Ti Jean" which crossed the pond to England becoming known as "Little John's Reel". It then crossed back over and settled in the US, familiar to fiddle players under the name "Liberty" or "The Liberty Twostep".

How's that for migration?


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM

See thread 3116: Whiskey The best available answer is here; Malcolm Douglas post of 23 Dec 03, 08:42 PM with link to "The Sporting Hero," printed in Leeds and Manchester, England, 1850-1855 (Bodleian coll.).

This question has come up before; Thread 3116 has the most information on this song, which seems to have come out of the music hall.

I am posting "A Sporting Hero," although the words don't differ much from what already is available in 3116, in that thread.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: bill\sables
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM

One song that crossed from the USA was Aragon Mill recorded by the Fureys as Belfast Mill


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 03:13 PM

Aragon Mill, written by Si Kahn, is copyright Joe Hill Music.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

"Reel de Ti Jean" isn't that the English tune called"The Tipsy Parson"?

Gerry


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:37 PM

Hasn't "Banks of Ponchartrain" become kind of an Irish folk standard? As well as "Sonny's Dream"?


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: cobber
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:40 PM

Here in Australia we have lots of "traditional" songs in that they spent their time doing the rounds of camps etc before being collected towards the end of the 1800's through to present. A lot of tunes came here in the 1850s with the gold rush and grew Australian stories. Many were music hall tunes that were played in the big gold towns like Bendigo and Ballarat and were taken bush by the miners. English miners who "made their pile" generally took their fortune back to England and it is quite conceivable that a song with an American origin could have arrived in England via Australia. It's possible that All for me grog" could even be one of these. I remember the Dubliners telling me that they learned it from a friend who had picked it up in Australia, but variants exist all over. The tune that comes to mind that sprouted many Australian songs is "The little old log cabin in the lane". I've always thought that was American. Does anyone know?


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:02 PM

Cobber, "Little Old Log Cabin..." is American, written by Will S. Hayes, 1871. He was with Manning's Minstrels. Sheet music at American Memory.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

G'day all,

Len Wallace: Interestingly, when Australian folklorist Ron Edwards had a grant to view all the broadsides in major British (that's geographically British ... so it includes Republic of Ireland) collections, he found that the oldest broadside version of Black Velvet Bands in all the collections had the same town ... Barking! (Apparently the sort of suburb where a poor young London Apprentice would find digs ... ?). I had always thought that local broaside printer had used their nearest large city name ... but, I seem to be wrong!

cobber: Just as interestingly, a lot of the source songs for Australian songs of the 19th century were American:

Click go the Shears is a direct parody of Henry Clay Work's song Ring the Bell, Watchman, celebrating the end of the American Civil War. The British sailor's song Ring the Bell, Second Mate, is also a direct parody of the original - and, probably, contemporary with Click go the Shears. Old dance music players in Australia still know the tune (popular as a schottische ... and, later, as a barn dance) as Ring the Bell, Watchman.

A number of Clay's popular songs of the 1860s turn up in Australian collected versions - His Ship That Never Returned (which, much later, gave us the MTA Song on American Hit Parades) has an Australian timbergetter's version, generally called Only One More Drink or The Man That Never Returned. There are a number of other examples of Clay's songs sprouting Australian songs, e.g. the later goldrush song The Golden Gullies of the Palmer - with its "Music Hall" origins - but using the tune of Clay's Marching Thro' Georgia ... anyway, I need to get back to work!

The song collected in an Australian version as The Gum Tree Canoe (not a Clay song ... I need to look up the origins ...) is a localisation of an American song of the same name ... about a canoe of Mississipi Red Gum!

These are just random examples ... but we should never fall into the trap of claiming "British" ( ... or "English" ... or "Irish") origins for all our songs.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:24 PM

G'day again ... esprit de l'escalier time ...

cobber: As Q says, Little Old Cabin is a Will Hayes song/tune - and it was well known ... and used for Australian songs like the shearers' song Waiting For The Rain, with its first line:

Well, the weather had been sultry, for a fortnight's time or more,
And the shearers had been battling, might and main, ...

(I heard a program, many years back, of Canadian songs - one of which began:

Well, the weather had been freezing, for a fortnight's time or more,
And the wolves were howling, out there on the plain, ...!)

Anyway, Hayes' tune was also widespread in British circles as the tune for the old Methodist hymn starting:

He's the lily of the valley, He's the bright and shining star ...

From this form, it seems to have warped a little to become the tune for the Liverpool sailors' song Maggy May (the earliest written version of which turns up in a ship's log of the early 1830s) ... which got transported to Australia by sailors - and, probably, also with a few of Maggy May's "sisters" transported for "playing the game".

(BTW: I have heard some Americans describe Little Old Cabin as "the tune to every bluegrass song ..."!)

Regards,

Bob


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 06:42 PM

I once started a list of songs using "Little Log cabin..." as their tune and I got tired of the project after I reached 70 songs. William Shakespeare Hays is rarely credited with the writing of it. He should be!! It's a perfect tune. Joy


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:21 PM

"British Isles" includes Ireland (though some object to it), because it's a geographical expression. But "British" never does.

.........................

The "Kilgarry Mountain" version is presumably a reimport from overseas, since there's no such location in Ireland. "Far famed Kerry mountain" is in Colm O'Lochlann's 1938 collection, as learned in childhood.

The Lily of the West is also there - if that's an import from America, it's not a recent one.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

The Bodleian examples of "Sporting Hero" or "Whiskey in the Jar" have Mulberry Mountain. Neither it nor Kilgarry Mt. are American. Cork and Kilkenny are mentioned in the broadsides. Is there a Melbrow town? (none in America, but it is a surname from the British Isles and there would be Melbrows anywhere members of that family settled).

There is no reason for any of the names in the song to have significance with regard to the song's origin.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 10:25 PM

Flora, Lily of the West is a British Isles song, probably of broadside origin. The usual tune was earlier used for the song Caroline of Edinburgh Town, and would appear to be Scottish. Some of those broadsides credit it to a G[eorge] Brown, also sometimes credited with The Constant Farmer's Son and The [Bonny] Bunch of Roses. These are generally supposed to be Irish (the tune to which the latter was specifically set certainly is) but commentators have occasionally been puzzled by the fact that "George Brown" isn't a particularly Irish name. There's no particular historical need for him to have been Irish, as it happens. Napoleon was just as appealing as an iconic figure to English radicals as he was to Irish nationalists; and for the same reasons, though this is often ignored by people who don't look beyond "received wisdom" on the subject.

There are plenty of songs which became popular in Britain and Ireland from the 19th century onward which had their beginnings in America. These often went unrecorded by the folk song collectors of the early 20th century because they knew them to be popular commercial songs of relatively recent composition, and that wasn't what they were looking for; as often as not, they knew them already.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:26 AM

Just tiptoeing in your passionate debate, but it occurs that I found the lyrics of this song to-day, after having heard this song for the first time 40 years ago, in 1964. This song impressed me a bit at the time 'cause of its melody and rythm, as it was performed. And this song which was on a disque vinyle 33 t called "Western Memories" was entitled "Gilgara Mountain".
So? Irish? Appalachian?

Had a good afternoon from France, on the eve of "Bastille Day".


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:39 AM

Obviously an early version is Irish (for example, the brother in the army could be down in Killarney) but it became adapted to an Appalachian environment by the time Frank Warner collected it, and recorded it without any Irish to it.

That's my opinion anyway!

A


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:18 PM

When you say "Appalachian", remember that's the northern end of the range: New Hampshire (as in New England), for Lena Bourne Fish in this case.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 06:49 PM

The 1850s stuff from England is still the vintage "whiskey" as far as we know. The sporting hero succumbed to drink before telling us where his jar came from.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 08:16 PM

True; but to be fair, the text of Sporting Hero (Whiskey in the Jar / Bar) was based on the rather older Patrick Flemming, a genuinely Irish broadside song so far as we know: and it does contain some quotes from it. The situation is confused (in America) by Lovell, a related song presumably also based on Flemming, and by oral survivals of the latter which are often confused with Whiskey in the Jar because the stories are essentially the same.

Anyway, people who would like to know more should look at the previous discussion Q indicated earlier, where all that has already been gone into in greater detail. There isn't really a great deal of point in repeating here speculation which has already been addressed. Substantive new information on the song's history (as opposed to its modern commercial incarnations) would best go there as well.

Perhaps I should repeat Q's link. Origins: Whiskey In The Jar


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:26 PM

What seems to intrigue people is not the story of Flemming, or our sporting hero, and their watery pistols, but the chorus, which is not found with the early song.
Is there any earlier evidence of "whiskey in the jar," or "whiskey in the bar," than the music hall mentions of 1850-1860? None has been noted, as far as I can see, in previous threads.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: UB Ed
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 09:59 PM

"Cork and Kerry Mountains"...


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Mudlark
Date: 13 Jul 04 - 10:19 PM

Always a great joy to hear the scholarly discourse, including older threads, from those that clearly know so much more than I do. I did wonder, tho, at the exclusion of Mulberry Mt. being a possibility. Mulberries are a common tree, all thru the ozarks, and I presume the Appalachians, as well. And there is at least one Mulberry River and the town of Mulberry. Probably beside the point but it made me pine a bit for those lovely trees, and the good wine made from the berries.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 02:58 PM

It can't be American, because we don't drink out of jars. Glasses, cups, mugs, bottles, shot glasses, snifters, or flutes, yes, but not jars.

Jars are what you put things like pickles and jam in.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:13 PM

Cajuns drink out of fruit jars (at least, according to Hank Williams they do).


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:54 PM

In Texas we drank out of Mason jars in a number of western-cowboy-Texas barbecue eating places. Some places had special jars made.
Moonshine was usually sold in jars.

Leeana, who in tarnation is this "we"?


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 03:59 PM

Yes, and there were two bands from the South called the "fruit jar drinkers" and the "fruit jar guzzlers," so I think this was a common rural practice throughout the south and the west at least. I didn't drink out of jars much in the (urban) Northeast, but it wouldn't surprise me if rural folks in the northeast did.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: emjay
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 04:14 PM

Jars were the only kind of glasses my aunt could keep in her house and they didn't match. We all drank from them if we were thirsty.
A little bit on the topic of this thread. I heard and liked the Metallica recording of Whisky in the Jar. It was a surprise, though.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 05:14 PM

Now that we have unfairly taken Leeana to task on jars of the Mason type, just what was meant in 1850 by "jar"?
There were several kinds; the term not being as restricted as it seems to be now.
Of course there was the preserving jar, often used by the poor to drink from, but there were also jars of various kinds in which liquor was meant to be kept.
Some 'jars' were attractively designed china or glass containers. Shape could vary a lot; one in the shape of a teapot is offered by this antique dealer: whiskey jar

It was an easily learned trick to drink from one gallon pottery whiskey jars - bend the arm at the elbow, lay the jug in the crook with the neck toward the face, and tilt the elbow upward. I remember learning this as a kid (just fresh cidar, folks). These jars are mostly called jugs now.

See the large old jar (Glasgow made) at the Limerick City Museum: Conway whiskey jar >

These jars are popular with collectors and have become costly.

(hope my links work)


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 08:49 PM

Black Velvet Band

1. As I went walking down Broadway
    Not intending to stay very long
    I met with a frolicksome damsel
    As she came a-tripping along
    A watch she pulled out of her pocket,
    And slipped it right into my hand
    On the very first day that I met her,
    Bad luck to the black velvet band!

Chorus:
         Her eyes, they shone like diamonds,
         They called her the Queen of the Land
         With her hair thrown over her shoulders
         Tied up with a black velvet band.

2. Before Judge and jury next morning
    Both of us did appear,
    A gentleman claimed his jewellery
    And the case against us was clear.
    Seven long years transportation
    Right down to Van Dieman's Land
    Far away from my friends and companions
    To follow the black velvet band.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jul 04 - 08:55 PM

Black Velvet Band, a broadside song of English origin, has been dealt with extensively in other, earlier threads. Now that the search engine is working again they can easily be found.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 03:06 AM

Too true, Q. Also, in the song he doesn't say he drinks from the jar, just that the Whiskey is there.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jul 04 - 11:02 AM

I still think I'm right. Drinking from a jar just isn't American enough to persist as a title for 150 years. Of course, that's not conclusive, it's just an indication.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Nerd
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 10:37 AM

The title isn't "Drinking from a Jar," but "Whiskey in the Jar," which could just refer to a place to store the moonshine. Anyway, the title often isn't "Whiskey in the Jar" either, but "Gilgarra Mountain," "Kilgary Mountain," "The Sporting hero," etc, etc, etc....

I agree with you that it's not an American song, but not with your reasoning.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 12:53 PM

The history of the song's origin is clearly English, with Irish, American, and music hall chorus variations added with time. I don't recall anyone claiming that Patrick Flemming was American.

Jar, in the 19th c was a common name for the container in which wine and liquor, including whiskey, was sold. More recent usage is jug. Medieval French jarre, Spanish jarra (from Arabic), was applied to an earthenware drinking vessel. Original usage in England (see OED) was for a large earthen vessel for holding water, oil, wine, etc. In 1732, Pope wrote of a Spanish vessel bringing 1000 jars of oil.
Our modern canning jars are the result of studies by the late 18th c. Frenchman, Nicholas Appert and have nothing to do with containers for liquor, oil, etc.

"Jar" has nothing to do with the song's origin, one way or t'other.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Arne Langsetmo
Date: 16 Jul 04 - 03:30 PM

I've drunk Irish whiskey from a jar: It was poteen,
and like Appalachian moonshine, that's the way it
comes. . . .

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: fumblefingers
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

It's clearly an Irish song if for no other reason than the lyric, "I'd like to find me brother, the one that's in the army. I don't know where he's stationed, in Cork or in Killarney."

I can find these places on a map and they are all in the Southwest of Ireland. So, as far as I'm concerned, that settles it. Certainly it's possible that there are places in Appalachia with the same place names, but it isn't very likely that the song isn't Irish.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Liberty_Hops
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 05:25 PM

I'm wit you Fumblefingers, anyone who would take the time to listen to the lyrics would know that this is an Irish Song, the rest of you guys take a few college geography lessons and put this one to bed, case closed!


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Dazbo
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 07:59 AM

<>

Bollocks!

This is no indication of the song being Irish. Could just as well be an English soldier in an English regiment stationed in Ireland (just as a soldier stationed in England could just as likely be Irish). As was mentioned further up the thread locations in songs changed when the songs migrated (In Bruton Town, In Burton Town, In Scarlett Town are all the same song).


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 11:07 AM

Ok; more for the obsession with this one.

I have a US version song sheet published 1858 by Oliver Ditson as "Whiskey in the Jug."

Words are pretty much the same, (ex. sub. "Jug" for "Jar"). Verse melody is different but the chorus melody is the same as today's standard.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM

The Levy Collection has "Whiskey in the Jug," 1858.
In the 1850's the song was very popular in the music halls and it was about this time (c. 1840-1850) that the nonsense chorus developed. See related threads linked above. Most of the broadsides with the chorus were printed in Scotland and England (cod-Irish, as Malcolm Douglas calls it).
A Glasgow broadside of 1850 (4th ed.) stated that the song was a nightly favorite in the Glasgow saloons, as "proverbial in the minds of the youth of Glasgow as 'Jim Crow.' (posted in thread 3116).

Older versions- Sporting Hero, Patrick Flemming, Whiskey in the Bar, etc.

Older versions of the song (see threads) did not have the chorus.
As for the soldiers, another version has 'two marines,' I don't think any locale was mentioned.

Whiskey in the Jug-
http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=099.044.000&pages=4


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:00 PM

it's an Irish song, typical of the carry-on of the wild young men of the 18th century. If you don't believe me, read Jonah Barrington's Recollections of Dublin in the 18th Century.


Ireland is not part of Britain, geographically or in any other way.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Harlan
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:21 PM

Oh here's a good Irish song - let's try and pretend it's english = WANKERS


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 09:56 PM

And typical also of the 'wild young men' of England and Scotland as well.
"But deep in my heart,
I do believe...."


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Terry K
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:06 AM

to pick up, rather pointlessly I suppose, on the drinking from a jar argument,

Leenia says

"Drinking from a jar just isn't American enough to persist as a title for 150 years"

I ate in a restaurant in Vicksburg, Mississippi where the glasses for your water and/or wine were in the shape of fruit jars, so they were clearly picking up on some traditional theme. All they served for food was catfish, which came with a number of accompaniments, including "hush puppies" (which to an Englishman means "cheap shoes") - I remember it being a real fun place.

I also seem to remember a song called Blue Suede Shoes.....

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Dazbo
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:19 AM

Oh here's a good English* song - let's try and pretend it's irish = WANKERS

How many Irish songs (and tunes) are actually Irish in origin? A damn sight less than you think Harlan.

* Substitute Scottish, Welsh, American, Canadian, Australian etc etc


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:20 AM

I'd suggest to "fumblefingers", "Liberty_Hops", "Dazbo" and "Harlan" (why do people give themselves such daft pseudonyms?) that they take the trouble to read what has been already said about the history of this song before repeating misapprehensions and arguments that were laid to rest long ago. This particular thread isn't especially helpful, because the person who started it hadn't realised that his question had already been answered. It isn't easy to plough through all the repetitions and irrelevancies that people insist on posting (along with the usual 'thread drift') whenever songs like this are mentioned, so the real information does require a little effort to find; and many people, it seems, lack the stamina for that.

To repeat:

Once upon a time there was an Irish highwayman called Patrick Flemming. He was not a very nice man; you can read about him in The Newgate Calendar.

After terrorising the countryside for some years, committing a series of robberies, kidnaps, murders and mutilations, he was finally arrested when the landlord of his local pub shopped him and his cronies, taking the precaution of wetting their firearms first. Flemming was executed in Dublin on Wednesday 14 April, 1650.

A broadside ballad was composed to commemorate the event. It may have been called 'Patrick Flemmen he was a Valiant Souldier' (a tune of that name was prescribed for a political song of c. 1684), but the earliest example we have is rather later; around the turn of the 18th/19th century apparently. It was called 'Patrick Flemming', and you can see the text at the late Bruce Olson's website:

Patrick Flemming

The broadside press and the early Music Hall were always recycling old material, and two new songs were made, loosely based on the old story. One is known in America as 'Lovel', while the familiar 'Whiskey in the Jar' began, so far as we can tell from printed evidence, a little before 1850 as a song called 'The Sporting Hero, or Whisky in the Jar' ('Bar' in some examples); it was rapidly reprinted under varying titles. It was this song that introduced the famous chorus that has been the subject of so much (sometimes frankly bizarre) speculation.

'Musha' was used in a great many songs made for the popular stage during the 19th century, as, like 'Macree', 'Whack' and so on, it provided instant 'local colour' for songs made on Irish topics; the market for these was good throughout Britain and the USA, and not just because many urban areas had, by then, large Irish populations; they were popular with everybody who went to the Halls.

We don't know who wrote 'The Sporting Hero', or where, but we do know that it gained its initial popularity in the principal urban centres of England and Scotland; the inference is obvious. It was (very loosely) based on an earlier song (again, we don't know who wrote that, or where) about a real event that took place in Ireland two centuries previously.

Whether you prefer to consider it an Irish song because of its subject matter and ultimate (partial) derivation or an Anglo-Scottish song (or something on those lines) because of its more immediate origins, is up to you. There is no point in making stupid and ignorant remarks as "Harlan" has done. That advances the cause of truth not one whit.

For more information and broadside texts, see thread Origins: Whiskey In The Jar. It contains a lot of peripheral chat, and stuff that tells us nothing about the song (repeated postings of the words recorded by Thin Lizzy and Matallica, for one thing) but do at least read the posts from Bruce Olson, "Liam's Brother", Art Thieme, "Q", and me.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 04:01 AM

It's usually fairly easy to know what's Irish and what's not simply by the style of the tune.

The English have plenty of nice songs of their own. They just sound different from Irish songs.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Dazbo
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 05:08 AM

Funnily enough I don't recall ever saying where I thought this particular song came from. I was commenting on one post where the poster said it was Irish because it referred to a soldier being in Ireland. However the first part of my post has disappeard (probably through my own incompetence) which was:

"It's clearly an Irish song if for no other reason than the lyric, "I'd like to find me brother, the one that's in the army. I don't know where he's stationed, in Cork or in Killarney.""


My second post took exception to the tone of Harlan's post when a look at many books of 'Irish' tunes/songs shows how many have been imported to the tradition, Dirty Old Town being a recent example.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:28 AM

Oh yes, lots of English songs have been taken up by Irish singers, including the said Dirty Old Town. All Irish towns, of course, are clean and new.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:03 AM

If the song was alternatively known as "Whiskey in the Jug", did the first line of the chorus go something like this (excuse spelling):

Musha ring dumma doorum dug

As it would have to rhyme with "jug"?


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Ole Bull
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:21 PM

Are you serious? If so then it's

"Musha! Toor-an-ady O"

Maybe the Irish can't, or don't need to rhyme.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,Hamish
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM

"Daaah" disnae rhyme wi "Jar", pal. Except in slovenly, slack-jawed English-speak.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 03:14 PM

The jug - jar business also was discussed earlier. It would help not only if past information posted here was read, but dogmatic, uninformed statements were avoided.

Before the late 19th c. there was little distinction between jug and jar in definition.

The whisky jar of Ireland and Scotland in the 19th c. is what most people now call a jug- a stoneware container, constricted at the neck, with a single handle on one side.
The Limerick city Museum illustrated one on their website (posted long ago, the site may be changed or dropped so here is the Description):

"Whiskey jar of Thomas Conway, Wine and Spirit Merchant... Limerick. Half gallon. Made at Port Dundas Pottery, Glasgow. Stoneware jar, cream below, pale brown above. Tapered body, bevelled to a flat base, rounded shoulder to tapering and waisted spout at the centre top. Strap handle ...."

http://www.limerickcity.ie/applications/general/museum_details.aspx?RowID=4717

Malcolm, thanks for the summary. I doubt if it will help; some who post here listen solely to their own thoughts.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:08 PM

let us not forget the massive 19th century exodus from Ireland to all ... repeat all parts of Britain bringing their music with them.


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Subject: RE: Whiskey in the Jar - Irish? Appalachian?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:25 PM

let us not forget the massive 19th century exodus from Ireland to all ... repeat all parts of Britain bringing their music with them.

It is also well documented that Irishmen came over to England at harvest time for work and then return home when the harvest was in until well into the 20th. century.

These people will certainly have brought their music with them, and they will also have learnt new tunes and songs from the the locals and taken them back home, so it is often difficult to say where particular songs and tunes originated. The use of specific place and/or personal names is not necessarily a good indicator as these will have likely been changed and localised when the song moved to its new location.


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