Shirley Collins - can she sing?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

So to summarise:-
Jim wrote:-
"Shirley Collins was instrumental in popularising the 'head tone' singing in the revival"

and I asked for
I'd be interested to know if Jim can
a) give a satisfactory description of that term
b) provide any evidence that Shirley set out to sing using whatever a 'head tone' is rather than singing the way that her aunt Grace, her uncle Fred or her mother or others in her family did.
c) provide any evidence that she was 'instrumental in popularising' such a style.

and Jim's responses were:-
a) 'Not sure I can' (though you were happy to use the term)
b) - not dealt with
c) - not dealt with

Now, Jim, I hope that you realise that I am not not trying to start an argument on this, I am merely trying to seek elucidation on some things that were given by you as a bald factual statements and not an opinion or a summary of studies etc. I am interested to know.

Some other points from your last post in response to my questions:-

You wrote:-
We have an example here where an excellent singer with a wonderfully rich speaking voice is on the verge of abandoning singing altogether because (thanks mainly to the fags) she can no longer handle a head tone and ends up gasping for breath at the end of lines.
So:-
* You say early in your post that you cannot give a satisfactory description of 'head tone' - yet you persist in using the term.
* You insinuate that heavy smoking cause her to lose this undefined 'head tone' gasping at the end of lines whereas the reason that she stopped singing was a traumatic incident that I don't think I should mention on a public forum - though I'm sure that Shirley would tell you if you were to ask her.
* I presume that you can substantiate your statement that Shirley is and was a heavy smoker because throughout my very long friendship with her this has not been so.

The problem for me, Jim, is that you express opinions such as Personally I find the tonal range of her singing voice far too limited to sustain my attention over a number of songs, but this is entirely down to my own tastes which nobody could possibly object to but you mix them up with statements which I feel I have to challenge. Another example - you talk about her gasping for breath at the end of lines. Can I again call for evidence or examples?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:40 AM

"I'm not sure criticising someone else's style/voice is helpful or can lead anywhere meaningful. Rather negative I would opine"

Funnily enough I had a bit of a youtube seach on this singer as I haven't heard much of her. She can obviously sing but also she is not averse to voicing her opinions on other singers herself. Didn't like Lonnie Donegan, thought Dylan was a lesser Rambing Jack, and didn't think much of Paul Simon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdzeeeORQLc


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 11:27 AM

But constructive criticism is very different from slagging a person off, for example [hypothetically] mentioning words that may not be apparently clear to a listener, is a minor criticism of diction, but is not slagging off.
BREATH CONTROL, is an important technique, and can be taught by classical singing teachers, by yoga teachers, and can be self taught using some of the exercises used by the critics group, breath control is a technique, it has in my opinion nothing necessarily to do with singing style., other than it will make the performer more confident.
Here are two exercises for improving breath control used by yoga teachers, take a deep breath from the diaphragm, release air slowly, take another deep breath from the diaphragm, then expel air quickly , this is known as the cleansing breath., this very simple exrcise helps breath control. THIS MAY BE OF INTEREST.BREATHING EXERCISES

      A 20% reduction in oxygen blood levels may be caused by the aging process and normal breathing habits. Poor breathing robs energy and negatively affects mental alertness. Unless breathing is exercised, aging affects the respiratory system as follows:

      Stiffness: The rib cage and surrounding muscles get stiff causing inhalation to become more difficult. Less elasticity and weak muscles leave stale air in the tissues of the lungs and prevents fresh oxygen from reaching the blood stream.

      Rapid, Shallow Breathing: This type of breathing, often caused by poor posture and weak or stiff muscles, leads to poor oxygen supply, respiratory disease, sluggishness, or heart disease.

BELLY BREATH EXERCISES

         The following exercises are simple ways to deepen breathing and to cleanse the lungs. These exercises will also increase energy and decrease tension.

          Lie flat on your back to get a proper sense of deep breathing. (Have some small pillows available to reduce strain by tucking them under the neck and knees. The natural course of breathing in that position will create a slight rise in the stomach upon inhaling and a slight fall upon exhaling.)

          Place your hands palm down on your stomach at the base of the rib cage. (The lungs go that far down. What fills them deeper is the pushing down of the diaphragm. The diaphragm creates a suction which draws air into the lungs. the air is then expelled when the diaphragm pushes up. In this process, the life-giving oxygen fills the lungs and gets into the blood stream for distribution to the cells. Carbon dioxide is expelled from the blood into the about-to-be exhaled breath, thus cleansing the body and blood of waste products.)   Lay the palms of your hands on your stomach just below the rib cage, middle fingers barely touching each other, and take a slow deep breath. (As the diaphragm pushes down, the stomach will slightly expand causing the fingertips to separate somewhat.

          This movement indicates full use of the lungs, resulting in a truly deep breath rather than the "puffed chest" breath experienced by many as the greatest lung capacity. Chest breathing fills the middle and upper parts of the lungs. Belly breathing is the most efficient method. Infants and small children use only this method until the chest matures. The yoga breath or roll breathing combines belly and chest breathing.

    FOR BEST RESULTS, PRACTICE THIS EXERCISE FOR 5 MINUTES.

COMPLETE BREATH EXERCISES

       1. Sit up straight. Exhale.

       2. Inhale and, at the same time, relax the belly muscles. Feel as though the belly is filling with air.

       3. After filling the belly, keep inhaling. Fill up the middle of your chest. Feel your chest and rib cage expand.

       4. Hold the breath in for a moment, then begin to exhale as slowly as possible.

       5. As the air is slowly let out, relax your chest and rib cage. Begin to pull your belly in to force out the remaining breath.

       6. Close your eyes, and concentrate on your breathing.

       7. Relax your face and mind.

       8. Let everything go.

       9. Practice about 5 minutes.

HUMMING BREATH EXERCISES

         Follow the instructions for inhaling the COMPLETE BREATH (Steps 1-3 above). Now, as you begin to slowly exhale, make a HUM sound. Keep making that humming sound as long as possible. Pull your stomach muscles in, squeezing out a few more seconds of humming. Then relax. Practice for 2 to 3 minutes.

CHINESE BREATH EXERCISES

         A very fine, short (though not shallow) breath exercise comes from the Chinese Tai Chi Chuan. Three short inhales are done through the nose without exhaling. On the first inhale, the arms are lifted from the sides straight out in front at shoulder height. On the second, the arms are opened out straight to the sides while still at shoulder height. And on the third, the arms
    are lifted straight over the head. Then, on the exhale through the mouth, the arms are moved in an arc back down to the sides. Usually, ten or twelve breaths are sufficient and will not cause light headedness. If light headedness should occur, simply stop the exercise. This exercise also has the effect of really opening up people physically. In subtle ways, this exercise uses the body in leading the mind and spirit to greater openness with each other and the environment.

         CAUTION !! Especially for older people: Never do panting or shallow breathing except while seated. Hyperventilation may occur. As long as one is seated, hyperventilation will not be a problem because, even if a brief blackout should occur, the body's automatic breathing apparatus will immediately take over.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 10:52 AM

Hi Vic
"give a satisfactory description of that term"
Not sure I can - I hadn't realised there was an established definition - will look it up later.
I've always considered the description Mike gave adequate enough for general use "breathy, unearthly quality" - though it has never particularly "alienated" me.
We did use a more detailed analysis of the technique in the Critics Group and several of the singers already used or wanted to use it in their singing, but that was more based on how the tone was produced rather than how you defined it.
The two problems I mentioned:
Gear change - the inability to maintain a single tone as the singer moves up and down her range culminating in a jump from a deep substantial tone to a light airy one.
Breath control.
The 'head tone' requires at least twice as much air to produce, often limiting a singer to a restricted time before she needs to take a breath, irrespective of whether a breathing gap fits into the text of the song or not.
Can I make it clear that I in no way intended my comments to be a criticism of Shirley Collins singing - it is a long time since I heard her speak and I honestly can't remember if her speaking voice is as unsubstantial as I remember her singing voice to be - a long time since I heard her sing.
Personally I find the tonal range of her singing voice far too limited to sustain my attention over a number of songs, but this is entirely down to my own tastes - nothing more.
What does concern me are the hordes of women singers who have deliberately adopted the head voice technique as a permanent way of delivering a song, despite the fact that the tone is a million miles from their natural speaking voices.
We have an example here where an excellent singer with a wonderfully rich speaking voice is on the verge of abandoning singing altogether because (thanks mainly to the fags) she can no longer handle a head tone and ends up gasping for breath at the end of lines.
As I said - not a criticism, just something to be aware of and dealt with appropriately.
My (separate) point remains - no singer is or ever should be above criticism, no matter how experienced.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 10:24 AM

Earlier on I posted some highly complementary reviews of Shirley's singing, not so much to defend her, since she needs no defense, but as a contrast to the unpleasant remarks made by the troll who resurrected this thread. Once again, his snide attempts have shown that trolls serve a purpose. They elicit thoughtful, knowledgeable responses from people who understand the music. Some of us instinctively respond in kind to the trolls. Others are more sensible, more sensitive.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 09:07 AM

Andreas Scholl, the countertenor, made a record of folk songs and I thought it was bloody awful (do note "I thought...") Can he sing? Of course he can sing. Kathleen Ferrier sang folk songs to Britten's piano arrangements. It sounded lovely but it doesn't do it for me at all as "folk music" (I keep it in my stash of classical music). Could she sing? You bet!

How you respond to a performance of a song (apart from said response being incredibly subjective) is very complicated and it unconsciously takes into account all manner of stuff such as genre, the words, gender of the singer, nationality of the song as well as the singer, complexity of the arrangement, your own previous listening experiences and preferences, your mood at the time, the company you're in and probably about 20 other factors. To say that such-and-such is a crap singer, or whatever, marks one out as a total prat, not worth conversing with. I think Bob Dylan's a crap singer. But dig deeper and you'll find that I also don't care for most of his songs, obscurantist lyrics don't do it for me at all, I dislike his harmonica playing, he's sold his soul to the commercial devil, he ripped off Nic Jones (IMO), he's a bit rude, etc. etc. So, very subjective stuff, this. There is no one way of singing well. One man's fish is another man's poisson. In many ways, hardly worth talking about!

(So I'll probably shut up...)

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Only about nine years late to issue a correction - but I do remember mentioning this post....

From: GUEST,Shirley Collins - PM
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:06 AM

Bugger off the lot of you!

.... to Shirley at the time and she assured me that she had never and would never post on this forum.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 09:01 AM

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but the last 20 postings or so. I've listened to Shirley's singing for most of my life, and whilst her voice/style is completely opposite to the way I sing I have always enjoyed her singing. Many of our traditional songs suit this style well. Whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, I'm not sure criticising someone else's style/voice is helpful or can lead anywhere meaningful. Rather negative I would opine.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:48 AM

Jim Carroll:-
"Shirley Collins was instrumental in popularising the 'head tone' singing in the revival"

"Interesting!" I thought, "I wonder if there is a satisfactory definition; I'll do an internet search for 'head tone' singing."

I did - and there was one.... on Wikipedia!

I'd be interested to know if Jim can
a) give a satisfactory description of that term
and
b) provide any evidence that Shirley set out to sing using whatever a 'head tone' is rather than singing the way that her aunt Grace, her uncle Fred or her mother or others in her family did.
c) provide any evidence that she was 'instrumental in popularising' such a style.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:19 AM

Drift re Wikipedia, as it has occurred already:

All depends how well an entry has been 'policed'. I can assert, for instance, that the entry on my late wife Valerie, who was a writer &c, is sound. I didn't put it up in the first place, and have no idea who did; but I have edited it and so can guarantee its 100% accuracy. It is my impression that the entry on Shirley [to mitigate the drift] is reasonably accurate as to fact, and moderate as to opinion.

I agree entirely with Dick's last post. Of course there are infinite ways of singing, most of them valid. Guest-troll's sillinesses are never going to take anybody in.

~M~

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 08:06 AM

Of course she can sing.
As far as I am concerned different styles of singing are what make traditional and contemporary folk singing interesting, whether people like a particular persons style of singing is always a matter of taste.
when people post on this forum and start saying things about other singers[such as can they sing?. or she shames the whole folk scene, or any other slagging off of any singer, WHOEVER that is] it is in extremely bad taste, and shows the petty minded nasty nature of those who do it,vindictive, bad mannered, unpleasant people.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:58 AM

""voice has a breathy, unearthly quality, which alienates some people".
Shirley Collins was instrumental in popularising the 'head tone' singing in the revival - it was, and still is a main feature of folk singing among some women singers.
Personally, I find the somewhat untraditional technique somewhat limiting in respect to the range of material open to the singer, but it can be a valid style of singing if used sparingly and skilfully.
The main problem with it is the technical difficulties it brings with it - breath and tone control (the dreaded 'gear-change').
On Folk Britannia Sirley made clear her resentment to her appearance on the scene as having been described by Bert Lloyd as "bucolic", so criticism of her performance is by no means limited to Wiki or anonymous guests.
Her contribution to folk song, as a singer and because of her involvement with collecting, makes her a major figure on the English folk scene - she continues to be just that, but this in no way invalidates comments on her singing style.
On the contrary, the influence that her style has had on other singers makes critical discussion highly desirable, if not essential - but please, please not using terms like "She has never been able to sing, and shames the whole folk scene"
The folk scene is fairly unique in attempting to build a cast-iron defence against all forms of criticism, dismissing them as begrudgery and often describing them as "folk policing".
Positive, thoughtful and well-meaning criticism can only bring about the much needed changes on the scene, certainly far more than sycophantic and uncritical praise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:26 AM

Wikipedia is notoriously untrustworthy. When I was giving seminars to university students on the most accurate and productive ways of using the internet for research, I recommended to them that they didn't touch Wikipedia with a bargepole.

I used to ask them what proportion of the files on the internet was freely readable and available by using a web browser like Firefox. Their answer was inevitably something huge, like 90%+. The true answer is more like 10%, believe it or not, with the remaining 90% being absolutely private or available only by payment. My university paid in the region of £300,000 per annum for online access to thousands of academic journals, the contents of which were available only through subscription. That may have changed slightly with time.

End of my thread drift.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 07:08 AM

I wouldn't call the wiki statements 'detractions', actually, so much as attempted summaries of various opinions.

Still, take your point, Vic.

~M~

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 06:04 AM

There is an interesting anomoly in the post by Michael Grosvenor Myer.

In describing our troll, correctly I would say, he states:-

It ill becomes an anonymous detractor to animadvert against her qualities and achievements, and then, without revealing who he is or what qualifications he claims, to urge his democratic right to his opinions...

However, he has already stated in his post:-
The author of Shirley's Wikipedia entry speaks of her "plain, austere singing style", adding that her "voice has a breathy, unearthly quality, which alienates some people".

... but we don't know who wrote this. Wikipedia entries are largely uncredited and the huge site is notoriously unreliable and is avoided (or condemned) by large sections of the academic community. Could it be that whoever wrote this opinion of Shirley could be regarded as an 'anonymous detractor'?

Mistakes and misjudgements on Wikipedia? A recent newspaper article began:-
Up to six in ten articles on Wikipedia contain inaccuracies, according to new research.

.. and that article must be the absolute truth because it was published in..... The Daily Mail.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM

"Oh dear, Jim Carroll is paranoid. I don't know who you are,"
Guest - guest
I don't know who you are either - I use my name in my postings, you don't.
I am certainly not "paranoid"
I took what I believe to be the appropriate steps to prevent this discussion from following the fate of numerous threads on this forum of disappearing into the ether due to a rather unpleasant vendetta - sorry to have interrupted your train of thought - carry on.
Best wishes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,IanG
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Van
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 06:17 PM

It is odd that someone reopens a 9 year old thread to cause offence but even odder that others rise to the bait.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:37 PM

I am sure that Joe is right - but the guest troll claims to be a good singer and musician. Where can we see/hear evidence of this? Because without evidence I don't believe him/her.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:20 PM

On Oct 21,2010 in The Guardian, Robin Denselow called Shirley Collins "One of the finest and most inventive traditional English singers of the folk revival."

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 05:05 PM

On Nov. 24 2010, Dust Magazine called Shirley Collins " The finest singer of the mid-20th century folk revival."

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:33 PM

"one of England's greatest cultural treasures." That's what traditional folk icon, Billy Bragg calls Shirley Collins. It must be so.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:23 PM

Anybody with a good voice can sing, but it takes real talent to wow the audience with a mediocre voice. Leonard Cohen does it every night he works, to a packed, adoring house.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM

Why dredge up an ancient thread? Because he wanted to, I suppose.

Why did people get all in a tizzy about an anonymously unpleasant person? Because they wanted to, I suppose.

If nobody had responded to this troll, would this thread be a problem?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:38 PM

Of course everyone has a right to his opinion, but why dredge up an ancient thread to make unpleasant remarks about a highly respected public figure and public performer? Even the aficionados at La Scala are more polite, and this sure as Hell ain't La Scala. Pisses me off, but I presume that was the point.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM

I'm mostly into Irish, but Shirley Collins occupies pride of place in my CD collection. She sings with a lovely, unforced, natural voice and the recordings she made with Dolly accompanying on the pipe organ, and Anthems In Eden, are coming to my desert island. Anthems, No Roses and a collection called Fountain Of Snow are wonderful.

Just thought I'd mention it! :-)

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:14 PM

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to delete this thread.

I personally don't like it that people can post here without using a consistent name, but that's the policy here.

Shirley Collins is a public figure and a public performer. As such, her performances are open to criticism, even at the time of her mother's death. And it would seem to me that at this time, Shirley Collins would have better things to do, than read a Mudcat thread.

I'll watch the thread and I may close it temporarily to let things settle down, but I don't see any reason to do it now.

And personally, I don't like her voice, either. I can listen to her only in small doses. A lot of good folk musicians have horrible voices - but their singing often tells the story well, nonetheless.

I think MtheGM has given us a wise and balanced response, as he often does. I would add that the age-old rule here at Mudcat says: Don't respond to trolls. It's sound advice.

-Joe Offer, Music Editor-

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM

The author of Shirley's Wikipedia entry speaks of her "plain, austere singing style", adding that her "voice has a breathy, unearthly quality, which alienates some people". She is quoted as saying, "I like music to be fairly straightforward, simply embellished – the performance without histrionics allowing you to think about the song rather than telling you what to think."

I think this a fair summary of her work and approach. She is not a flamboyant performer, but has always maintained a consistent quality. I always gave her records favourable, but not excessively enthusiastic, reviews.

I have known her, not closely but with that sort of distant friendship which subsists between people with respect for one another's work, for many years; though have rather lost touch recently (I think we last met at the Bob Copper Memorial Concert at CSH in about 2005), and grieve to hear of her troubles.

Whatever one's view of her as a singer -- it is clear that tastes differ greatly with regard to her -- I do not think it can be denied that she has for long years been a tireless worker for English folksong and for the folk scene, from her early accompanying of Alan Lomax on his American and British field trips to her own impressive recording and performing history. She well deserved the award of the EFDSS Gold Badge, and her appointment by HM The Queen to Membership of the Order of the British Empire for her services to folksong.

It ill becomes an anonymous detractor to animadvert against her qualities and achievements, and then, without revealing who he is or what qualifications he claims, to urge his democratic right to his opinions when taken to task for such perverse conduct and vile manners.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Nick
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 02:17 PM

>>of course she can sing, this is dafter than tony haynes
saying i wasnt good enough to be a professional singer, and jim carroll criticising me because i did not sing in his approved style, why dont these wankers just fuck off.

It just goes to show that if you are driven enough you can always hijack any thread and end up on the same subject - ie talking about oneself and the wrongs and rights etc etc

Personally I think more bananas should be served at folk clubs and will try and get this into every thread I contribute to regardless of the subject because people need to know.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:57 PM

Bullying? Nonsense! You haven't even got the courage to reveal your identity. What possible warped pleasure can you gain from trolling like this?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:52 PM

Can't tolerate opinions then? What is the point/integrity of this site? This isn't about sentiment. It is supposed to be about art/music.You can't blame a contributor with an opinion for not knowing what is or isn't going on with her life. Am I supposed to feel guilty about her mum? I lost somebody recently too. Stop bullying me.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:42 PM

Matt Milton
What a bizarre and petty and hateful comment to pointlessly resurrect an ancient thread with. "Shames the whole folk scene"?!! Fuck off, you odious, cowardly little shit.

Couldn't a moderator just close this thread please?

It's particularly pointless (and potentially hurtful) given the fact that - whether you liked her voice or not – Shirley Collins has been physically unable to sing for many years now.
I believe the condition might be called dysphonia, though what it's called isn't important.

 Thank you, Matt and well said. There are some cruel, opinionated, unwarrented comments on this thread and I just hope that Shirley does not see it or have it brought to her attention; particularly this week when she is dealing with the death of her 101 year old mother.
Please, for the sake of decency, could this thread be closed and deleted quickly?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:41 PM

Oh dear, Jim Carroll is paranoid. I don't know who you are, but you are obviously self-obsessed. Twat.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Will Fly
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:41 PM

She has never had a good voice. No control. Wavering all over the place and encouraging embarrassment from real singers and musicians.

What nonsense. I'm just listening to "Pretty Saro" from her album with Davy Graham - "Folk Roots, New Routes" - as I write this. Perfectly pitched, no wavering and completely controlled - one of the first recordings I ever heard of her. A classic album in my view.

I, as a good singer and musician

Well, we have only your opinion for that - any recordings we can see or hear - and perhaps compare with Ms. Collins?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:35 PM

Your response epitomises why I will never join your small minded bigoted 'folkie' website. why ask for an opinion and then insult the respondent. keep your self-opinionated rubbish to yourself. Low standards keep folk in the backwaters.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:35 PM

That should, of course, read Your egocentric behaviour
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:33 PM

"and jim carroll criticising me because..."
If you continue to stalk me, particularly on threads I have not contributed to, I will report you to the forum adjudicators.
Are you deliberately trying to sabotage these discussions?
My comments on your singing, nor your egotism have any relevance to this subject so please do not spoil it for those who wish to discuss Shirley Collins
If you post one more comment about me on one other thread I will ask you to be expelled from this forum-our egocentric behaviour has already been brought to your notice by others
Out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: breezy
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM

Dear soljer shrek

They were correct but then there's no accounting for taste

and no excuse for profanity

Yellow card

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

Guest guest is repetitious as well as nasty.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:20 PM

"..real singers and musicians", eh? Ignorant, arrogant twat!

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 01:02 PM

She has never had a good voice. No control. Wavering all over the place and encouraging embarrassment from real singers and musicians. I had no idea of her recent illness, and am sorry to hear about that, and I am sure she is a lovely woman, but am I, as a good singer and musician, not allowed my opinion? Her dysphonia is nothing to do with her having always had a weak, uncontrolled voice. She has been very involved with the folk scene, but her voice is unlikely to attract new converts to the 'scene'.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:52 PM

of course she can sing, this is dafter than tony haynes
saying i wasnt good enough to be a professional singer, and jim carroll criticising me because i did not sing in his approved style, why dont these wankers just fuck off.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:51 PM

9 years later, someone makes a special anonymous effort to be as negative as possible, with no explanation... after all the thoughtful comments.

I guess 'guest' needs a hobby to keep 'it' from roaming folk clubs and pointing out flaws.... oh, wait, was that YOU, guest?

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:46 PM

What a bizarre and petty and hateful comment to pointlessly resurrect an ancient thread with. "Shames the whole folk scene"?!! Fuck off, you odious, cowardly little shit.

Couldn't a moderator just close this thread please?

It's particularly pointless (and potentially hurtful) given the fact that - whether you liked her voice or not – Shirley Collins has been physically unable to sing for many years now.
I believe the condition might be called dysphonia, though what it's called isn't important.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Nov 13 - 12:30 PM

She has never been able to sing, and shames the whole folk scene

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 09:58 AM

Is that your age ted or the IQ of Hull ?

eric

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:12 AM

oh, 100 by the way.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 06:11 AM

Yes she can.

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:48 AM

Nah then Shirl behave thissen.

eric

Subject: RE: Shirley Collins - can she sing?
From: GUEST,Shirley Collins
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 04:06 AM

Bugger off the lot of you!