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Subject: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 06 Feb 04 - 08:09 PM Oh Dear God. I hope someone else will join this thread because I do not know what I can adequately say. 19 souls were drowned yesterday on Morecambe Sands, not 40 miles from here. The sands form part of the flood plain that connects West Lancashire to the Irish Sea. The people who died were, as far as I can make out, illegal Chinese immigrants who were (in all likelihood) smuggled into this country by criminals who knew that because of our racist immigration laws these people could be hidden from sight by the simple expedient of paying them their pittances in cash. The sands run out for miles at low tide. However, when the tide turns, it runs in faster than a horse can gallop. No-one who knows the tides gets caught out there if they can help it. I do not doubt that these poor people were not told of this, nor were they with anyone who knew. Doubtless, they were on a piecework deal to collect as much shellfish for the tables of the upper-middle classes of the English North-West as they could. No doubt, there were many days in the past when they just about got away with it and the petit-bourgeoisie of Cumbria, Lancashire, Greater Manchester and the Wirral were able to comfortably feast on the fruits of their sweated labour. Maybe we have all been able to do when we have bought our takeaways from Sainsbury's and ASDA. If so, God forgive us all. So what are we going to do? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Sorcha Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:20 PM How very sad.....I had not seen anything about this....(Yooser here...[USer]) |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: michaelr Date: 06 Feb 04 - 10:43 PM I just heard about this on NPR. What a horrible thing, Chris. What are we going to do? Elect better politicians who enact better policies... |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:00 PM So far this has not been mentioned on any news broadcast in China. That is not unusual in cicumstances such as these. When the 48 illegal immigrants suffocated in a shipping container two years ago that received no mention here. The Chinese Government is embarassed by this sort of thing as it points out the fact that people are desparate to leave 'The Motherland' to find a better life. Sad to say that it is what are called Snakeheads, people who smuggle people, make a good living off these people. In this case these Snakeheads are Chinese who will see a dollar to be made and take advantage of others. Sadder to say as a long term resident of China I am not surprised by this sort of thing, just resigned. The police will find it hard to investigate exactly where these people came from. The Chinese resteraunt owners in the UK who employed them will stay silent, the other illegals who survived will also stay silent as they will be sent back here. If they talk then they could be subject to some very nasty treatment by the Snakeheads who smuggled them. They will also be punished by the legal system here and probably do a stint in a 'lao gai' a 'reform through labour' camp. To many Chinese, anywhere but China has to be a better place, that is why this sort of thing happens. These poor souls often hand over $2000-3000 or more to be got out of the country. To put this into persepctive the would be illegals often earn only the equivalent of $200 or less per year, they are often from remote areas of China and have no education or any idea of the world outside China. Hence they are ripe for exploitation. And they are exploited by their fellow countrymen. Not unsual. Before anyone calls me a racist, I have worked in China for nearly 12 years and my wife is Chinese. I do have an idea of how things operate here, exploitation is a norm here not an exception. Last year an illegal fireworks factory exploded and killed 25 people, the coverup did not succeed as the 25 dead were schoolchildren who as part of the payment for theie education were made to assemble and pack fireworks in their own school. The headmaster, the local education office and many other officials were well aware of what went on in that school, hence the attempted cover-up. Luckily a brave reporter managed to get his story printed despite threat of retribution. Before verbally beating up people for enjoying sea food and such in the UK please take on board the fact that it has been the actions of the Chinese Communist Party members that have resulted in such exploitation by limiting the liberty of their own people in order to stay in power. Most people in the UK would never be aware of the sad effects of exploiting illegal immigrants until an awfull things occurs such as the Morecombe Bay incident. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 06 Feb 04 - 11:33 PM heloo, i lived near morcambe for a while, it was really nice, and you can get really big massive ic creams thrre amd 2 dufferent colours, like red and white, and really big and olny about 50p in that time , probly gomne up a bit now. morecumbe is shit, apart from ice cream places, but one pub, [queens hed]? or something, does nice big meals for coulpie of quids.john |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: rangeroger Date: 07 Feb 04 - 01:24 AM I've read stories that when the British expelled the Jews (13th or 14th Century?) many were taken by boats to flats such as that and were told other boats would come and pick them up. Of course, there were no other boats,just the tides. So it is nothing new. rr |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: greg stephens Date: 07 Feb 04 - 03:27 AM Woody Guthrie's "Plane Wreck at Gatos" says it all on this subject. It is just dreadful. I don't see, by the way, what is gained by suggesting that eating cockles is an upper middle class activity. A wander along Morecambe front in the summer will soon show you who is eating jars of cockles. I am sure the Morecambe tourist indutry would love a slightly posher clientele, but they don't get it. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: fat B****rd Date: 07 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM jOhn from Hull, Is that your idea of irony ? If not then your usually amusing claptrap is misplaced here. The Gangmasters have been operating in many rural areas for years. There was even a TV investigation some years ago and the obligatory MP who "proved" that it was a perfectly reasonable way to make a living. At one time people on Social Security were the main victims but I imagine that illegal immigrants are even cheaper to use and abuse. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: ard mhacha Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:19 AM Well said, Fat one, I usually find John`s postings amusing, but, this was as heartless as it gets. As a one time migrant who was happy to do the most menial tasks, my heart goes out those exploited people. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Nemesis Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:27 AM It's an appalling and senseless tragedy. Britain is way behind where its global economic status would indicate it should be when it comes to, even, "legal" worker protection and also attitude towards worker protection. There is some good information and ideas etc for links and campaigns where you can make a difference on this website: Simon Jones Memorial Campaign http:/// |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Herga Kitty Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:28 AM It was pointed out in news broadcasts yesterday that Morecambe Bay is a public and unregulated fishing ground, with cockles worth £6 million pounds. It has attracted cocklers from all over the country, and beyond, who aren't familiar with the tides and quicksands. Thursday night's tragedy has prompted suggestions from various people (including the Bishop of Lancaster) that the cockling ought to be regulated. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Nemesis Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:30 AM Darn .. mucked the clickie up .. sorry, another attempt Simon Jones Memorial Campaign http://www.simonjones.org.uk/ |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Dave Hanson Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:37 AM jOhn you are a pillock. 19 senseless deaths. Some fucking joke about Morcambe eh. eric |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Gareth Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:58 AM For those of you not in the UK, the BBC reports Click 'Ere One can only pray that those callus idiots who put these souls in harms way will end up in prison. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 04 - 07:50 AM Anyone who has been to Alan Bell's Fylde Folk Festival, at Fleeetwood, will have seen Morecombe Bay, and likely dropped into the Fleetwood Museum - here's a link to a museum site about the bay and the fishing and so forth. It's notoriously dangerous, the sands there, for anyone who doesn't know the ins and outs of the tides. Putting people in there without the guidance they'd need was bloody murder. Here's a link to a song I made about the awful episode that Shanghaiceltic mentions, when 58 young Chinese men and women died in a shipping container - "A Dreadful Disaster" |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 04 - 08:58 AM How awful and possibly all for £1 a shift! I don't know Morcambe Bay at all but I do know areas such as towards Blakeney Point near me for example where you can be looking out to sea and find the tide is coming in behind you. Armed with that sort of knowledge, I can only agree with McGrath - not to alert people to these sort of dangers is criminal. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Blowzabella Date: 07 Feb 04 - 09:42 AM I work in Morecambe and my office is right on the sea front. Yesterday was terrible - what would normally have been a glorious day - sun shining, sea flat calm, and yet there were search helicopters flying overhead, the hovercraft and lifeboats out, the lifeboat station being used as a temporary morgue for these poor people. And, of course, the world's press had converged. There were lots and lots of people just standing, gazing out across the bay - not necessarily morbidly - just, I think, considering what a beautiful yet fearsome spot it is. I have crossed the bay by foot, led by the official guide (it's still a royal appointment and goes back to monastic times) but would never venture out onto the sands without him. As well as the tide sweeping in, there are also quicksands and deep channels which move about. Terrible terrible tragedy and I hope the people who orchestrated it are caught. Quite what an appropriate punishment for them would be I don't know. Another thought which worried me is that, the group who were sent cockling might not have known each other very well which might mean that not all the victims will be able to be identified and their families might not learn what has happened. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: greg stephens Date: 07 Feb 04 - 11:29 AM An old local saying on the shores of the bay is "Kent and Keer Part many a man and mare". These poor people were out, in the dark, between the Kent and Keer channels, after four days of prolonged rain. The Kent and Keer were both in flood, as were the other rivers flowing into the bay. I was up there all week and have never seen more floods on roads round the bay. The flood waters cut holes in unexpected places in the sand, move the channels, and generate quicksand areas. The conditions were as lethal as can be. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,JTT Date: 07 Feb 04 - 01:25 PM I woke in the middle of the night, having left the radio on, and heard the desperate voice of a reporter talking about the search, helicopters flying low over the tides, sweeping and sweeping in hopes of finding those poor kids - most of them teenagers or in their early twenties. God rest the dead, and God help the living. Shanghai, you know that people don't have to hate their country to want to go and earn and learn elsewhere. Ireland is full of Chinese youngsters at the moment. I've never talked to one who didn't hope to go home with good qualifications and a bit saved - just the same as Irish people did, and in some cases still do. The English police have published two helplines (for those ringing from abroad, put your international code (such as 00, for instance) and then 44 for England, and then take the 0 off the beginning of the number - Shanghai, if there are any Chinese net sources that might need them, maybe you might be able to post these?: For witnesses or those with information - 01524 63333 For worried relatives - 0870 9020999 |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Henryp Date: 07 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM Each tide the siren moans across the bay, "Beware you pilgrims walking on the sands" And every traveller hurries on his way To put his foot upon the Promised Land. Ring out anew you careworn Cartmel bells To tell that nineteen folk have lost their race, And peal across the lonely Furness Fells That nineteen souls today seek God's good grace. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: akenaton Date: 07 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM worth a thought that these people were being exploited by their own brothers in the land of exploitation. People are tempted to come into the capitalist system for money,and this often leads to the exploitation of the weakest. Im afraid this is Capitalism in the raw....Ake |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: open mike Date: 07 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM were there any survivors or witnesses? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Nigel Parsons Date: 07 Feb 04 - 02:21 PM Guest HenryP: thank you, is it all original, or is it an established verse with a second added? Whichever, I think I'll be haunted by it tonight Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Blowzabella Date: 07 Feb 04 - 03:12 PM There were sixteen survivors open mike - two white Eurpoeans and the others were all Chinese. I heard on the news that it was thought that most had only been in the UK for about three weeks. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Herga Kitty Date: 07 Feb 04 - 03:27 PM BBC news bulletins are now saying that the police and powers-that-be are going after the gangmasters, with co-operation from the Chinese authorities (interesting after the post from Shanghaiceltic). They're also saying that even if the people who were drowned were illegal immigrants the legal requirements for protecting the health and safety of people at work still applied. It's also being reported on BBC Radio 4 that the pay rate was 10p an hour... |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Henryp Date: 07 Feb 04 - 05:16 PM Thank you, Nigel; it's all original. It's a very sobering experience to cross the sands with the Queen's Guide, the sand pilot. It's very impressive to hear the tidal bore rushing into the estuary too. Sadly, there is a long record of misfortune on the sands recorded on the gravestones in Cartmel Priory churchyard. In 1652/53, George Fox, the founder of the Quakers, narrowly escaped disaster on the sands; From Lancaster I returned to Robert Widders's, and: from thence I went to visit Justice West, Richard Hubberthorn accompanying me. Not knowing the way, or the danger of the Sands, we rode where, as we were afterwards told, no man ever rode before, swimming our horses over a very dangerous place. When we were come in, Justice West asked us if we did not see two men riding over the sands: "I shall have their clothes anon," said he, "for they cannot escape drowning, and I am the coroner." But when we told him that we were the men he was astonished, and wondered how we escaped drowning. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 07 Feb 04 - 07:51 PM All of a sudden, a majority in the UK population is receptive to the possibility that illegal immigrants are human beings. Even tabloids that routinely excoriate such people are trumpeting their righteous indignation. Still, it's little enough to show for such a tragedy. Even during my childhood holidays at Grange-over-Sands some 50 years ago, it would have been hard to miss warnings about the hazards of Morecambe Bay. Sending immigrant Chinese to work in the bay at night within three weeks of arrival in the UK is tantamount to murder, but I don't see how it would be possible to charge the gangmasters with anything worse than breaches of employment law. Ard, Eric and Fat Bastard: there's an argument for cutting jOhn some slack. His lapses of judgment are usually not intentional. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 07 Feb 04 - 08:02 PM Still no reports in the Chinese media. My experience here leaves me with a nagging feeling that the Chinese authorities help will be limited to some trite quotes to satisfy foreigners. If they were concerned then a phone line number would be given and information published in the newspapers and on national TV. It has not been. I will talk to Chinese friends about getting the phone numbers posted on some of the main web sites. The government interest here will be in trying to catch the Snakeheads, if they are caught then the leaders can expect a bullet in the back of the head. Much of the Snakehead activity is centered around Xiamen in Fujian province. An investigation there two years ago resulted in many top local government officials being arrested, tried and shot for their involvement. Those that did not get the death sentence received life sentences. However the investigation petered out when it started to get rather close to those in power in Beijing with connections in Fujian. So yes there is government help offered but it will be done in a way to suit the powers that be here. Those illegals that survived and are returned will be in dire trouble with the authorities. As I said in an earlier post they can expect prison sentences, however it is not just those who left China will have problems. It is the nature here to punish the families too. This is done by adding comments to a document called a danwei. It is held by the authorities and every registered Chinese citizen has one. They cannotread it or et access to it. So all have a secret file held on them. Adverse comments on a danwei can affect the chances of education for their children etc. A fitting punishment for those Chinese who employed and killed these people would be to deport them if they only hold a visa and not a British passport. Then they can be placed in the hands of the police here. Providing the police handling them are not themselves corrupt (not unknown) then they too could well recieve the 'peanut' as the bullet is euphemistically called here. My wife and I discussed this tragedy and she said that if the government was more open with the media then the problems would be illegal emmigrants face might deter some. But for the government to admit that people want to leave China is a loss of face. True many Chinese are studying overseas and returning. These are young, savvy and itelligent. But they are able to leave only becuase they have an education and can speak the language of the country they will go to. The Morecombe Bay victims were most likely from the provinces and would never be allowed to travel legaly overseas because of their lack of education and work skills and language capability. Hence they are open to be exploited. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 08 Feb 04 - 03:39 AM I have just found out that there is no official extradition arrangement between China and the UK, so sadly the gangmasters if they are only holding Chinese passports might be able to stay in the UK. I hope not! |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,JTT Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:12 AM The scariest thing, Shanghai, is that the US is increasingly owned by China: http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/09/21/story947255360.asp US is deeply in hock to China By David McWilliams By 2016 China will be more important to the world economy than the EU. Think about that.This forecast comes from Lehman Brothers - one of the most respected investment banks in the world. Also this week, figures were published showing that Ireland's imports from China increased by 64 per cent last year. A glance at any pub, convenience store or supermarket in Dublin shows that the hardest workers are Chinese kids. In the financial world, China is fast becoming one of the biggest lenders to America. In fact, Chinese money is keeping the US afloat. It is clear that Chinese workers will have as much influence on whether George Bush gets re-elected as Saddam Hussein. China is emerging more rapidly than people expected. The 19th century belonged to Britain, the 20th to America and the 21st may belong to China. If it does,what will it look like? And will China's ascent be smooth and trouble-free? China is having a remarkable effect on the price of manufactured goods worldwide. This effect is similar to the impact America had on agricultural goods in the late 19th century. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 08 Feb 04 - 06:39 AM JTT, I honestly couldn't care less right now who owns America in the 21st Century. 19 people drown doing slave labour in one of the richest countries in the world and you're worried about the price of CD players. The issue here is how we treat the people whose labour we live off. If the chinese have the moxie to overtake the EU and the US as the world's biggest economy, good luck to them. But the Morecambe Bay tragedy happened here - not in China. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 08 Feb 04 - 08:30 AM Thanks for all the info, Shanghaiceltic. I believe the Chinese Ambassador in the UK has at least been up to Morecambe Bay. JTT, what's scary about China punching its weight? It's got far more than a billion people, compared with 450 million for the EU (that's after enlargement), and they are all governed by one central administration, like the US but unlike the EU. It's not a development born out of a command economy. It's born out of embracing capital markets, just like the west always urged them to do. I guess you're scared because the days of the west living off the rest are numbered. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:33 AM At last today (Sunday) the Morecambe Bay tragedy is getting air time on th Chinese media. The reports here are quite factual and state that the people drowned were illegal emmigrants. However the TV reports are just showing the staff from the Chinese Consulate on the scene, but there is no general comment from the Foreign Minsistry. A Foreign Ministry comment is quite important as it would set the tone and allowance for the main Chinese media comment. I spoke to some Chinese friends tonight and they have been watching the more liberal websites and the feeling I got from them was one of anger that people could be exploited in this way. It is quite interesting here that while they know the websites are being monitored, the people logging on making some quite hard comments (within reason) and that these could be taken on board by the monitors. Most Chinese websites are self regulating but with the sheer number of people with access it acts as a kind of straw poll. I just hope that means there is a more postive kind of action from the people in Beijing. Though China has a new president (Hu Jin Tiao) this man is still feeling his way and the power play is between him and the previous president (Jiang Ze Min) who still retains overall power via way of control of the Chinese Military Commitee). For me the intersting thing will be how Hu Jin Tiao plays this one. On past perfromance he has been more open, but there has been a conservative backlash headed by Jiang Zi Min. If the comment on websites here is strong enough then I think that there will be stronger action against the Snakeheads. I noted a previous comment about China becoming a stronger world economy. That is fact, it will do. Look at the labels in your clothes and on the back of your electronic and elctrical devices. Once a made in Japan was a joke. Wellington once said 'Beware of the sleeping dragon'. Part of the problem of the Morecambe Bay drownings is that as a re-developing country Chinese are very keen to make money but with little regard to the human cost. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:34 AM Shanghaiceltic This thread in my view is about the poor souls who have died, whilst trying to earn a living. For us to give our thoughts and condolences to family and friends. NO they probably wont even know they have been said, BUT we have said them with the best intentions, STOP hi-jacking the thread for your own political thoughts, that is for another time. These poor people have died - God bless them |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Amos Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:42 AM GUEST: Excuse me, but I found Shanghaiceltics discussion germane and of interest. Poor souls, indeed, and woefully ignorant about the facts of the environment they ended up in. Life is twice as hard for those who don't know what they are doing, a tough fact. A |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Feb 04 - 12:05 PM A contribution from inside China added greatly to the value of this thread in helping us to understand how this could happen. How do you come to be there ..celtic? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:33 PM I too have enjoyed celtic's clear and detailed knowledge. Keep up the good work please. These unfortunate people are exploited almost beyond comprehension. They reputedly pay £20,000 to be smuggled inot GB. Clearly that is beyond the reach of ordinary chinese people, indeed very few in my home town of Sheffield could raise that sort of cash except by selling their homes. So presumedly they "work off" their debt. At the cockle-pickers rate of pay of £1.00 per day it would be over 300 years!. Assuming they don't spend any money in the meantime. The more publicity this gets in China the better. Regards, Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Blowzabella Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:52 PM I have just been having a drink in a hotel bar just outside Lancaster, only five miles from Morecambe. There were two journalists in the bar, writing their stories for tomorrow's papers - one of them for The Times. One of the journalists couldn't just send his story 'down the line' due to problems with his laptop and so had to read it down the phone to a colleague and, consequently, could be heard in the bar. One of his quotes referred to a chinese lady, who is one of the immigrants who was not out on the sands that night, but who does the same work. They have been told that the cockling work will continue. They are living 40 to a house and pay no rent. She went on to say that if they do not fish (cockle) they will have nowhere to live. She said she dreads hearing the sound of the Boss' minibus pulling up outside the house, as it will mean they have to go out to 'fish'. Presumably this could all happen again then... |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 08 Feb 04 - 04:06 PM I agree with Keith A that the contribution from China was valuable in giving some background to the context in which the gangs that smuggle people operate. Thanks for that, Shanghaiceltic. However, the 'Observer' today indicates that police are looking at known (white) villains from the Liverpool area in connection with this particular operation. I don't really know what help we can expect or not from the Chinese authorities but in any event, the underlying issue, it seems to me, is the way we allow people from other parts of the world who come to the UK to try and find a better life to be treated - regardless of where they come from. I would also be wary of any suggestion that part of the cause of this disaster lies in the nature of Chinese society. I know that isn't what Shanghaiceltic is suggesting but one can imagine what he says being distorted and misrepresented in that fashion. As I said, this happened in England and it is the issues that it raises concerning the nature of British society that are most urgent to address. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: open mike Date: 08 Feb 04 - 06:47 PM what they should do is watch those big bags of cocles and mussels and pick up anyone who tries to get them...they may be the ones who hired them to be harvested-and they might come in to claim thier goods--if they are stupid! on the news reports there seem to be huge bags of what might be these shell fish... |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 08 Feb 04 - 07:25 PM Guest, I have no political axe to grind. I have merely written of the situation I see here in China. I too feel for these people and their families but I would be pleased to see better information given to people here so that they can make informed choices and that this sort of thing might not happen again. Chris B's final comment above is good one. The root of this disaster lies in many areas. But until people understand the pressures on life in some countries then there will be little sympathy for the plight of illegal immigrants. Many people in the UK do not have contact with, or have visited the countries that any of the illegals immigrants have come from. How often do you really really speak to a Chinese person in the UK? I do it on a daily basis and I admire them and find them very hard working with a focus on life. But the picture is very complex. If there was more understanding then there would be a chance that the exploitation could be controlled somewhat by new and more sympathetic immigration and labour laws. It is only when this sort of thing happens that ordinary folk in the UK are made aware of the problem. A very good book on modern China is Jasper Becker's 'The Chinese'. It covers many of the issues faced by the Chinese today and it would give an insight to those who have never really met and spoken with Chinese people. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Amos Date: 08 Feb 04 - 07:44 PM very hard working with a focus on life. Shanghai, I wonder if you could expand on these -- I know what hard working means, but in what way does the focus on life manifest? A |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 08 Feb 04 - 10:42 PM As this thread is really regarding the Morecoambe Bay tragedy I have replied by a message to Amos. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: dianavan Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM Human smuggling is as profitable as arms, drugs, porn and prostitution and is not limited to Chinese. It is one of the fastest growing enterprises in the world. Many people are smuggled in cargo containers and they are usually quite young. With only their hopes and dreams, they are faced with the reality of trying to repay their "bosses" for food and accomodation (and sometimes even their passage.) Of course they are unable to find legitimate employment because they do not have the required paperwork. They are enslaved by gang members and probably live and die without many of us being aware of their presence among us. It is worse than slavery! |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,jennifer Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:25 AM A sick twist is the situation in Lincolnshire where Portuguese who in fact do have the right to work in this country are being told by the gangmasters that they don't and are illegals. Therefore they don't dare complain at whatever treatment they get. More accidents waiting to happen. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Mr Happy Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:21 AM I saw a news item about other tragedies at Morecambe. There was included a piece about Spanish fishers there, but the big difference was that they'd got their fishing boat with them, high & dry on the sands. Obviously aware of tidal dangers, they'd be able to reach safety easily. I suggest to lessen hazards like being caught by the tides, that the licensing authorities insist that pickers have a boat of some sort with them. I know this doesn't address the problem of exploited workers, but could at least help to save lives. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,JTT Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:33 AM Thinking that the ownership of what's currently the most powerful and influential country in the world has no effect on working people is naive. But you're right, Peter et al, it's not the subject of this thread. Read the whole piece if you're interested in your future, though. The deaths of these slaves have plenty of implications for English working people. If a country allows people to be enslaved within its borders, its own people will quickly be enslaved too. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:25 AM I read the article, JTT. But what's your point? You don't have to read about it to know it's happening. On Mudcat in April 2001 I said: "In my own travelling in the States (California, Oregon, Illinois, Alaska) I was sometimes in stores where it was impossible to find goods that had not been made in China. In other words, cheap Chinese labour is funding the American way of life. I am delighted that this is so. It means the Chinese economy is expanding at a phenomenal rate, while the US economy is languishing at best. This is good [...] It will help reduce the disparity between a rich nation and a poor nation [...] America's trade with China is massive, and the benefits go both ways. It can't be turned off at will. On Mudcat in July 2001 I wrote: "The Spanish, the Ottomans, the Brits have had their turns. America had the 20th Century. Now it's China's turn again. And there ain't anything you can do that's going to stop it." I'm sorry for the thread drift, but not that much. This thread, as much as any other, is about the state of the world we're in. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Dave Bryant Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:25 AM It was definitely a very sad incident. Linda and I visited Morecombe a couple of years ago when we came up for the Lancaster Easter Marine Festival. We deliberately drove there because of the fame of it's shellfish, but found only one shop which was closed. We saw no shellfish stalls anywhere in the Blackpool area either. Do the folks up there actually eat shellfish, or are they all sent elsewhere ? If I went to any resort on the south coast, there would be plenty of stalls around - even in our area of SE london/NW Kent we could find probably half a dozen stalls within a few miles on the weekend. I suppose that means that these poor souls probably drowned trying to supply markets down here. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:01 AM The residents of the area will confirm that this has been going on for ages with groups of illegals being shipped in and large, identifyable, refrigerated trucks disrupting the roads. The authorities, namely the police, immigration, social security and councils have done sweet f.a. about it. If they had acted seriously about gangmasters, illegal immigrants, snake head gangs, associated crime and social security fraud we would not be discussing this now. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:07 AM Some questions relating to your post above Big Dick. What have the, "the residents of the area" done about it if they knew that those working the beds were illegals, and I dare say that the vast bulk of those, "large, identifyable, refrigerated trucks disrupting the roads." were completely ligitimate. It should also be remembered that, "The authorities, namely the police, immigration, social security and councils", can only do something about it if the matter is brought to their attention - at the time and with some form of hard evidence to go on. So please do not say that they, "have done sweet f.a. about it." Unless you know for a fact that these activities have been reported and that the agencies you referred to refused or failed to respond. In fact they had a blitz on it earlier on in the month and detained 37 illegal immegrant cocklers. For those agencies to act seriously, "about gangmasters, illegal immigrants, snake head gangs, associated crime and social security fraud" then they need information - The residents of the area would appear to be the best place individuals to provide this. If they do then, we will not have to discuss in the future. To our Born again Scouser Guest: Your inverted snobbery and class envy are showing, the introduction of which lends nothing to the point you are seeking to make. As someone has pointed out above - Cockles? The diet of the upper-middle classes and the petit-bourgeoisie - hardly. The immigrations rules for entry into the UK are no more racist than any other country's and a damn sight less stringent than most. The reason that Dave Bryant didn't find any shellfish in Morecombe, is probably due to the fact that that less than 10% of shellfish harvested in the UK goes to the domestic market, the main markets being, Holland, France, Belgium and Spain. Five arrests have been made, all were among the survivors, rescued from the sands. The pick-up used by this group has also been recovered by the police, who expect to make further arrests soon. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:17 AM You're nit-picking, Teribus. No-one did anytning about it, notwithstanding that what was going on was clearly an abomination by any reckoning. God knows what miseries these desperate people fled from, but it surely could have been no worse than the welcome that waited them in Britain. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 08:19 AM And hey, you guys, it's MORECAMBE. As with the comic genius from whom it takes its name. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:16 AM Teribul, If you would care to read the detailed article in yesterday`s "Sunday Telegraph" (page 19), you will find much justification in my comments concerning, pre-knowledge, threats, intimidation, official inactivity, lax licensing, zero deportations, zero gangmaster prosecutions. Need I go on. Similar activities are going on all over the country and are regularly reported in the press. For anyone in who is not aware must be in need of counselling. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:21 AM Peter K (Fionn) Nit-picking? Or purely looking at things realistically? The Authorities have tried to crack down on this twice according to BBC reports (Not by Gilligan). Take a look on any beach and tell me who should be there and who shouldn't. Cockling is licenced but it is all but impossible to regulate and police - that is the reality. You ask the question - "God knows what miseries these desperate people fled from," Probably the same as around a billion of their fellow countrymen find tolerable. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) Date: 09 Feb 04 - 10:17 AM Thinking about the future, it seems to me that there are agencies besides the police who have a part to play. One of these is the Inland Revenue, who besides being responsible for collecting Tax and National Insurance are also responsible for policing the minimum wage. Part of the problem here is that since the old Contributions Agency (which used to be part of the Department of Social Security) merged with the Inland Revenue in 1999, there are, I'm told, far fewer criminal convictions for NI and minimum wage offences than there used to be. One of the reasons for this is the IR culture of confidentiality which allows much less co-operation with other government departments than used to occur when the DSS used to handle these sort of questions. Also, criminal prosecutions in the Inland Revenue are mainly initiated by their Special Compliance Office which won't take action unless it is sure of a conviction and there is a decent chance of a large return of unpaid tax and NI. They won't go after this sort of operation because there isn't enough money in it and the effort and manpower involved can't be justified. I think one place to start would be to write to MPs demanding that more resources be put into chasing the sort of people who run these sort of rackets and that they be subject to criminal, rather than civil, prosecution. The 'Guardian' today states that raids have been carried out in the Merseyside area and some evidence has been siezed. However, even if there are convictions they are only likely to be for minor employment law infringements which are only likely to attract modest penalties. If this is the case, then as with the Zeebrugge disaster in 1987, the law on corporate manslaughter needs to be revisited, at the very least. I'm getting the impression that the police are doing their best but the problem seems to be that the law doesn't seem to provide for adequate punishment. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Jon Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:20 PM I see this BBC article says 5 people have been arrested on suspicion of manslaughter so maybe there is some hope of stronger charges. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,JTT Date: 09 Feb 04 - 01:51 PM What an ill-tempered series of postings! Today on the TV it was saying that Morecambe Bay is empty of cocklers, because it is being treated as a giant crime scene; they showed mounted policewomen patrolling and neighbours putting bunches of flowers on the sands. They also said that the crowded houses where the Chinese workers were living in shocking conditions have been deserted in haste; and TV footage showed rooms in an indescribable state. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:44 AM Teribus: Five arrests have been made, all were among the survivors, rescued from the sands... Isn't this a bit like victimizing the victim? Do you really think that any of the people out there were in any way responsible for this situation? C'mon - the people responsible wouldn't be caught dead in a place like that. And Terribus, don't forget, many of these people are sold to the snakeheads, etc. by family members to pay drug debts. Others are lured by myths of an America where the streets are paved with gold. d |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 04 - 04:28 AM dianavan, Not victimizing the victims at all, some scumbag gathers together a work-force of illegals to work a cockle-bed, do you honestly believe that they are just turned loose to - a. Get there by themselves b. Just pick up what they are supposed to be doing (on job training self-taught) c. Gather up what has been harvested and transport it back to their masters. I somehow doubt it, while maybe not senior management in the organisation, those at present under arrest will be those who were part of the scheme and who can provide links to those who were actually in charge of it. While myths may exist, "of an America where the streets are paved with gold." Morecambe is one hell of a long way from those streets. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:10 AM Dianavan, I gather that two of the people detained were English, did not leave the shore and were found in a van nearby. Gangmaster`s lieutenants maybe? With the economic industrial boom going on in China one would have thought these souls could do better at home in an environment they know, a culture they know, no language barriers and nearer to their families? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Rustic Rebel Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM I have to be honest, I've never thought of illegals and laws in other countries. I only have wondered how we- in the US can possibly justify NOT letting people come in, because most of us, or our ancestors came from somewhere else. Is it a problem like here, where our government only allows a certain amount of people? I apologize for being dumb, will someone enlighten me? Is it a problem in Britain to go to the immigration office and ...sign up? This thread is very enlightening for me. I am sorry for all the folks that struggle to find the green grass on the other side of the hill. I also may be sounding dumb and I understand that people think there are only so many jobs and only so much land to go around, but, I think there is still plenty of earth everywhere, to share. I think as a human, having little choice to live with the consequences of being human, we have to deal with what the human race has evolved into, therefore living with one another on such a small piece of space is inevitable. Deal with it, live with it, share it. Peace, (small piece to all) Rustic Sorry if this is a thread drift~ quest~tion. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Mr Happy Date: 10 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM Well if you think so, have a look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3472691.stm |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM Rustic Rebel, We are informed that England has become the most densely populated country in Europe which can only be the result of decades of immigration from Commonwealth countries, and more recently, emerging Eastern and Asian lands. Our government is quite happy to encourage the building of new houses to the tune of hundreds of thousands and spread concrete at an alarming rate. Also. it is envisaged that most of this will occur in the South East which does not bode well for our "green and pleasant land" (Apologies to Blake) |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: greg stephens Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:19 AM A peristent myth is growing up, and you can find it in these postings, that the unfortunate victims of this tragedy were working for £1 a day. Now, I obviously havent had the opportunity to examine the payslips of the people concerned, but I have to say that I think this is extremely unlikely. I work and socialise with a lot of refugee/asylum-seekers, so in the general course of life I hear a lot about the various underbelly/crap/black economytype jobs that are going. And I would guess that,even allowing for accommodation/transport "contributions" being creamed off by the bosses, you'ld have to be a helluva slow picker to only manage £1 a day cockling. Most crap jobs,I would guess, by the law of supply and demand, are in the £20-40 per day range. This is not to minimise what has happened, just trying to inform the debate a bit. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:41 PM I doubt if the gang bosses in this case gave payslips. If they had 'borrowed' money from the snakeheads for there payment to be smuggles to the UK this would have to be paid back. Additionaly as most of these people were from provinces in poorer areas of China, they would be unlikely to speak English. In fact they would probably have to work through someone who understood their dialect as they probably would not speak standard Chinese (Putonghua or Mandarin as it is also known)to a normal level of conversation. As such they would rely on the bosses to tell them what was happening, no way they could cross check the info given. Yes they could try doing a runner but the they would also be frightened that some form of revenge would be exacted on their families here in China. That is not unknown. In most cases of smuggling by snakeheads it is run as a business whereby they do take most of the money and little remains in the hands of the Chinese workers. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM To Greg There was an article in the Sat/Sun broadsheets that gave the rate as £15.00 per bag (not sure of size/weight.probably 100 lbs......10 kilos or so....) of cockles minus £4.00 fee and sometimes minus other unspecified costs..............it was possible to do two bags a tide......if you lived............. To Guest Hugh....... Apart from a couple of years when immigration bills were going through from memory 1960/1961 and 1967....GB has always been a net exporter of people. Think of the 500,000 in Spain........(300,000 in Andalucia alone) and you start to get the idea.......and this is without Australia, Canada.....etc.... Name a comment about immigrants of any sort..........and I can show you a similar quote from the past century or so describing a totally different sort of immigrants....... No Irish need apply comes to mind. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:22 PM I may have got the kilo translation wrong there........... Let me try another pill........... Dave |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: dianavan Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:38 PM oops - Morecambe is a long way from America but I think you get the idea. Myths are myths. We are not talking about well-educated people. When your life is hard, you probably believe just about anything is better. When you are so far down in the heirarchy of organized crime to actually be in the company of illegal migrants, you are not likely to "rat" on the bosses? Very doubtful. Especially when their families would be endangered if they did talk. Yes, I do see these people as victims. Rustic Rebel: It is never dumb to ask an honest question. I do not know about English immigration policies but in Canada its not that easy to get in. Once in, though, its hard to get them out if they are found to be involved in criminal activity. To get in you need money in the bank, a sponsor, a job or family. As far as I know, the only other way is if you claim refugee status. In that case you have to prove that you are in mortal danger. Canada actually encourages immigration because of our low rate of population growth. We need more employed people to sustain the social security plan. Its not that easy to "sign up" if you don't speak the language. The paper work is overwhelming and then you have to jump through the hoops. I guess you might say that because many try to take a short cut, they are not entirely innocent. In my opinion, they are victims, nevertheless. d |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: pdq Date: 10 Feb 04 - 08:54 PM Rustic Rebel...minor point, but the United States allows more LEGAL immigration than all other countries on planet earth COMBINED. The goal has always been to keep a common language and to assimilate the new people without losing our national identity. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:09 AM The Daily Telegraph quotes a couple of survivors as saying they were paid £6-£7 an hour, which seems to confirm Greg's point. Shanghaiceltic, you said you were waiting for reaction from China's Foreign Ministry. The following extract is from a story now posted on the BBC website: "The Chinese Government attaches great importance to the incident," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said. "We are ready to work with the British side to jointly crack down on international criminal activities, like the illegal smuggling of people." Chinese security officials are expected to come to Britain, and a law enforcement official is set to be posted to the UK's Beijing embassy. Ms Zhang said Chinese diplomatic staff in Britain were also working with the British police to identify the dead and any missing, and to help the injured. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:20 AM Thanks for that Peter, Things move slowly here but the new top man Hu Jin Tao seems to be more of an operator than expected, and it will be him that this is coming from. I cannot get the BBC website as it is blocked here in China, but bizzarly I can get the BBC live on broadband. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:57 AM Folkiedave, We are informed the population of England was about 10 million in medi-aeval times, 30-40 million in the 1700-1800`s, 59 Million at the moment going on 62 million in the next decade. This has got to be the result of natural population development and net emigration. Blunkett is credited with saying there is no limit!! |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Folkiedave Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:29 AM And who do you think populated.......... USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc......... Until well into this century Ireland (whether we like it or not) was part of the UK. They "exported" about 3 million. Huge numbers of Scots left at the time of the clearances, etc..............now we go to Spain etc.... Dave |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:10 PM Look at the figures Dave. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM Yesterday, a Saudi plane went down with now 45 dead. The pilot has prevented a bigger accident by clever steering. Wrong thread? No. The flight was full of foreign workers who just had to fly out of Saudi Arabia for a very short time in order to renew their work permission (fly out, renew permit, fly in). That was the only (silly) reason for this flight. Being a foreign worker in most countries (for differing reasons) is less safe than being a native worker. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,09085623 Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:15 AM There's another rescue operation going on a the minute, according to BBC News. Same place, same problem |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,009085623 Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:57 AM Forgot the link, didn't I? |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: ard mhacha Date: 12 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM Geraldine Smith MP for Morecambe was on Channel 4 News stating, that she warned the Emmigration authorities six months ago of an impending disaster, if nothing was done about the cocklers. She was told by Immagration that they hadn`t the resources to act. To-day it was reported that another squad of cocklers were rescued from the Bay, this time they were reported to be English. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: GUEST,cujimmy Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:02 PM Just heard this song on BBC folk awards sang by Christy - this stood out for me among all the other songs and achievements - very well done everyone - but this is outstanding - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rR7wPofjbE |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: Jean(eanjay) Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:20 PM I saw Christy on the Folk Awards too - just wonderful. Here is Kevin Littlewood. |
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Subject: RE: Morecambe Bay Tragedy From: LesB Date: 10 Feb 12 - 03:00 AM Whilst it's dissapointing that Kevin's song didn't win, at least it brought it to a wider audience. Kevin is a resident singer at our club Bothy Folk Club as is Chris (who plays the fiddle on the video). Cheers Les |
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