Folklore: Pogue Mahone

Subject: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:13 PM

I know this is gealic for "Kiss my Ass" but can anyone come up with an origin to this saying. IE: who was Mahone ...is it a Sir name of significance? I also know that this is the name of many Irish Pubs and a band as well. Thanks...

LL

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 Feb 04 - 11:26 PM

G'day LL,

I do remember a radio program about Carolan dealing with some recorded instances of feuding between harpers. A harper named McMahon accused Carolan of not speaking English ... and Carolan retorted that he knew the English for "McMahon": 'son of an arse'! (I will mention that persons I know called MacMahon swear that it actually means 'son of the bear' ...!).

Anyway, this suggests that there is a longstanding Gaelic word that can be so construed ... but you need a Gaelic speaker!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:32 AM

Pog = kiss
mo = my
hone = hind end

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:59 AM

Póg - kiss
mo - my (causing lenition of following consonant)
tóin - arse.

Mac Mahon or Mahoney from Ó/Mac Mathghamhna (Mod. Mathúna). Mathghamhain was an old word for bear (another was milchobur 'honey-lover'). Gamhain is still used for a one-year old calf.

Connacht Irish stresses the first syllable of words; Munster Irish stresses the second syllable; therefore, when Munster speakers say "Mac Mathúna" it is phonetically equivalent to "mac mo thóna" in Connacht Irish (ó becomes ú when close to a nasal 'n').

Therein the joke of the butt.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: breezy
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:17 AM

so its not Port then

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

to follow up 'AN Puca''s post, lenition is a softening of the consonant. in this case the possessive pronoun 'my' - 'mo' requires lenition , so 'tóin' becomes 'thóin'; the initial 't' is 'softened', it becomes silent, so pronounced 'hone'

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:08 AM

sorry, so in a phrase it would be written 'póg mo thóin'

long 'o' as in 'home'

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 12:32 PM

Now I get it! So Pogue Mahone is nothing more than the english phonetic spelling of pog mo thoin! I was wondering if the sir name Mahone also entered into the joke? Seems "Kiss my Ass" is a funny name for a pub?
Thank you all for your help.
LL

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:55 PM

Lyrical Lady

apart from your inability to fathom that Mahone was an arse not a person I think you should also be told that it is a surname not a sir name.

blessings

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 03:36 PM

Pogue Mahone to you then....sweet guest Pedant. Oh... one more thing....fuck off ....ya nasty eegit.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

The phrase crops up in the Dubliners' version of "Monto".

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 04:22 PM

it's a verse of the song, should be in everybody's version:

Now the Queen she came to call on us, she wanted to see all of us
I'm glad she didn't fall on us, she's eighteen stone.
"Mister Melord the Mayor," says she, "Is this all you've got to
show me?"
"Why, no ma'am there's some more to see, Pog mo thoin!"
And he took her up etc.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

Yeah, Bill! That verse makes the song!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM

As a footnote, I recently saw a World War II photo of a USAAC B-17 bomber with the nickname "Pog Mahone" painted on its nose. Fortunately, there was no accompanying illustration.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:14 AM

And of course it also gave the Pogues their name!

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:22 AM

"Fuck off you nasty eegit" not terribly lyrical nor ladylike. Besides eejit is spelt with a j not a g. Who knows I might rather like to pogue your mahone.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:32 AM

Will you to get married and have done with it.

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 06:39 AM

And in the old Bowery Boys movies, Leo Gorcey occasionally played a character called Pug Mahoney.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM

"pogue YOUR mahone" - some pedant!

Regards

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM

Actually, I thought she was being ladylike. I would have said much worse to such a smug reply.

Insecure people never miss a chance to lord over others whatever small amount of knowledge they have.

Good on ya, LL, for seeking the answer. Don't worry about the opinion of Pedant. I am sure this person's "Irish" would have a hard time filling a thimble.

Mick

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:09 PM

Thanks Mick. I appreciate the support.

I've been checking over Pedant's past posts and as far as I can see the only thing she/he has to offer is spelling corrections....how bloody boring!
Pedant must be a frustrated teacher who's without a classroom to practice in or a lawyer whose practise is washed up.

The reason for seeking information on Pogue Mahone is because the mother of a young friend of mine recently got a job working at a pub called Pogue Mahone and he wanted to know if it truly meant "Kiss my Ass"...so I told him I would check in with my friends at Mudcat and get a answer for him. Somewhere in my memory bank I recall that " Mahone" was a British badguy, not well thought of in Ireland. Therefore, I was wondering if Pogue Mahone was a play on words to slander the SURNAME "Mahone".   My research tells me that the word "pogue" in English translates to a derogatory term describing military headquarters or a person of lesser rank.   I just can't help thinking that there is a double meaning to this saying. I've been in many Irish pubs where there have been several banners on the wall either in Irish or Gaelic but I've not come across a saying that has been changed into phonetic english spelling before...therefore I think there could be more to the story!

LL

Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:47 AM

A friend taught me pogue mo breachan, kiss my lawyer.

In that my great grandfather, both my grandfathers, my father, and my sister are/were all attorneys, I find the phrase amusing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:51 AM

I would think the reason for the phonetic spelling could be that the phrase is a translation of the English "kiss my ass" which translation took place in an English-speaking milieu. We always thought growing up that the phrase was American and would have heard it from American cousins rather than from neighbours.

In that context, it would be interesting to know if the verse from Monto given above can be dated.

For those who are interested, the phrase which filled the semantic position of pogue mahone in the Irish of my neighbours would have been rendered "kurdevaire mahone" phonetically in English.

And a hidden instance of phonetic spelling of a Gaelic phrase in English would be "Smashing" with the meaning '(very) good'. This is derived from "Is maith sin/Is math sin" meaning 'That is good' and probably entered the English language from Scottish Gaelic. The final 'g' is a hypercorrection where it was felt that the pronounciation smashin was recte smashin'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM

There was a parody on Westering Home which started 'Festerin hone and a pong in the air ....

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:40 AM

A Phúca,

"Monto" was written by G D Hodnett for a theatre revue sometime in the late '40's or so. Whether the phrase was in the original, I'm not sure.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:42 AM

BTW - I think that "smashing" story, though smashing, is folk etymology.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:46 AM

Martin: "Monto" - 1940s? Surely it's older than that? That stuff about the Invincibles, Skin the Goat, etc relates to the Phoenix Park murders in 1882. Any info on Hodnett?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

He was jazz critic of the Irish Times for years! I'll check on the details of the show for which it was written - but the basic story is correct.

Monto itself, of course, is older than the song.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:32 PM

Lyrical Lady,
Not a lot of research needed I've only ever posted under this name to this thread.I'm not a frustrated teacher - just frustrated. There may be other pedants posting to other threads.
Big Mick,
And a bloody small thimble at that - have I claimed to be Irish? This is about the only phrase "of that ungodly language" I know - in quotes because it is a quote not my opinion. Don't eat yourself up with your pomposity. Lyrical does a good job of defending herself. I didn't mean to be smug it was intended as a rather arch joke occasionally less of the falling down water is a good idea before I mess with this thing.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

While we're being pedantic, "eegit" is a common pronounciation for "idiot" in the Irish midlands, elswhere (in Ireland) it's "eejit".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:20 PM

Shakey finger there - are you the Maurice who is sometimes called the gangster of love - or is that a different Maurice or then again you mibht be the space cowboy. How do we know from pronunciation whether it has a g or a j? does anyone other than James Joyce write it down?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM

Excuse me Pedant...Did you mean to spell "mibht" with a
"g" instead of "b" ....?
I'm sure it was just a slip up.....easily done isn't it?
LL

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

Isn't it interesting, LL, how they always make a smart ass comment and then try to turn it around. Does the question, "Moi?" come to mind.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Daithi
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

An Púca 7 Martin Ryan - I often wonder how much of this stuff really is folklore as M. R. suggests. How do you feel about "galore" = "go leor" or "shanty" = "sean tigh" (should be "teach sean", an ea?)

On the other hand it's well established that words have entered English from the languages of countries at one time occupied by the British (e.g. Hindi words - khaki, dekho, snooker ? etc) - so why not from Irish?

le gach dea ghui - Dáithí

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:39 AM

Dáithí

There's no doubt at all but that lots of words have moved from English to Irish - and vice versa, so to speak! I'm no expert but I know it can be very difficult to establish whether a given case is genuine or represents a "back-creation" where the sound or, sometimes, spelling of a word suggests an origin from another language when, in fact, its either coincidence or something that developed in both languages from a third, common root.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:44 AM

Since "Mahone" is a surname, pogue Mahone means "kiss Mahone". It is clearly a PUN on pó mo thóin. Tóin is not a naughtly word per se, but I suppose kissing someone's bottom is naughty. There is area of Rann na Feirste (in County Donegal, Ireland) called "Tóin an Bhaile" and I hardly think the residents would translate that as "the arse of the town"!

It seems to me that some of you would also be interested in looking up the "Pedantic Crack" thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:08 AM

Never heard Mahone as a surname! Ma-hone-ee as an American version of Mahoney (stress on first syllable), certainly.



Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM

Sure is Lyrical - these keys are just too close together.;-)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

admittedly, I haven't come across any Mahones either! Malones, Mahons and Mahoneys, yes. In Ireland the latter the "hon" of the latter two names is pronounced as in "honey", while in the US Mahoney has a long "o", as given by Martin Ryan. I think there are a few Irish surnames that are pronounced differently on either side of the Atlantic

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM

There is a pub rock band called The Mahones. They sound a lot like the Pogues.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM

In the American Civil War, the Confederate Army had a Brigadier General Mahone. The name might have been changed upon the family's entry into the US. It's been known to happen.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:24 AM

Good Lord! Somebody literally made an ass of him!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 04:40 AM

Although the American way of pronouncing "Mahoney" sounds strange to us in Ireland, I'm thinking it may well have come directly from the Gaelic. There was a huge wave of emigration from Ireland in the mid 19th century (famine time) and many/most of the emigrants would have been native Irish speakers. I'm not sure what Gaelic surname is associated with Mahoney or O' Mahoney, but MacMahon is equated with Mac Mathúna. In Munster Irish, the stress is on the middle syllable of "Mathúna", and it sounds closer to the way the Americans say Mahoney than the way the way the Irish do.

Next we should demonstrate that "Baloney" is an Irish word ... and did you hear the one about the politician Dukakis being not of Greek origin, but Irish; his immigrant forebearer a Dubh-Chathasaigh from Gréig na Manach?

and - seriously - another spin-off from the Pogues was a band called the Popes

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM

Philippa, how about moccasin ... mo cas sin!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 11:49 AM

is bocht do chas!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM

Back when I was a Civil War buff - long before this discussion - I read that Confederate General Mahone did indeed pronounce his name to rhyme with "my own." (And Gen. Taliaferro pronounced his as "tolliver.")

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM

Orality and Literacy!

The American pronounciation of Mahoney (Ó Mathúna) is a matter of litearacy and the orthography adopted when the name (derived from Mathún < mathghamhain as indicated earlier in the thread) was anglicised.   The rendering of (Ó) Mathúna as Mahoney obviously took place in a prototonic milieu (a lovely word for stressing the first syllable) and would have caused no trouble in a context where the oral pronounciation was known independently of the spelling.

In a context where this "oral" knowledge didn't exist (e.g. in America), the pronounciation was attempted from the written word and became Mahoney to rhyme with Baloney, which is deuterotonic (just as lovely a word for stressing the second syllable).

A parallel to this process would be the pronounciation in England of the Irish surname Moran. In Ireland, this is prototonic (< Móráin) with a long o sound and clipped final syllable. When the Dublin Gaelic Footballer went off to Manchester to play soccer with United, the Irish suddenly heard English commentators say the name with an unstressed initial syllable and a long flat a sound in the final. This was new to a lot of us. Again, just a question of context and whether precedence is given to a pre-existing oral knowledge or to presumed parallels in orthography.

The American long o pronounciation of Mahoney would not have been derived from an Irish pronounciation carried across the Atlantic. The -ún- < -amhn- would not have given a long o sound in any situation (historical phonology is what separates "etymology" from "folk etymology"???).

It is interesting however that the long u sound, stressed in Munster Irish doesn't seem to have survived in any anglicised version of the Ó/Mac Mahon/Mahoney names. Any known instances of surnames containing an element such as Mahoon in the various parts of the mudcat world would be of great interest.

The use of Mahone and reported pronounciation with long o, while interesting, is likely based on the American Mahoney pronounciation rather than derived from Mahon. Sound phoney to anybody?

And in an attempt to save the bearers (pun there?) of Mahon and Mahoney surnames from constant reference to the posterior, let us leave the delicate area for the delicatessen and submit another etymology to the mudcat examiners: Mayonnaise named from a Mac Mahon of the Wild Geese in France. This language contact is outside my area but at least it should give any Mahons or Mahoneys some material to distract people from the pogue mahone stuff.

Unrelated: The Irish surname Flaherty became something like Flarity (under metathesis) in America. I am wondering if another surname, Cloherty, ever underwent the same process giving names such as Clority or Clarity (hardly that, in the area of etymology!). Any instances would be greatly appreciated.

And one final question, does "folk etymology" mean "wrong/incorrect etymology"?

Martin - Is maith sinn agus is maith sin!

Dáithí - galore < go leor, deifinitely. Shanty < seantigh - a new one on me and I don't know: sean would come before tigh (that adjective always precedes the noun it qualifies) so your "teach sean" objection can be dismissed; however, the areas where the old dative tigh is retained as an independent nominative or accusative form also retain a final g sound in the phonetics which would give shantig in English if the derivation were true. That would have to be overcome if the etymology were to be proven.

BTW, anyone read Godel's Theorem of Incompleteness. A "little bit" mathematical, but I'd put it on the required reading list for anyone dealing with etymology.

Oh, while my hand is in it, and as surnames are part of it -

Hooligan - this is from Ó hUallacháin (Houlihan) and represents a stage when the -ch- sound retained more phonetic value than it does in the Houlihan anglicisation.   The word nicely racist to those Irish who are not suffering a mother-in-law née Houlihan.

Larrikin - an Australian coinage, looked on with a little more affection than a hooligan but probably derived in the same way from the Irish surname Larkin (Ó Lorcáin). Used as an adjective as well as a noun in Oz I think (we await confirmation).

Much too much...apologies.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM

A Phúca,

To me, anyway, "folk etymology" means at least lacking in evidence and at worst, contrary to evidence.

Incidentally, I was talking to Frank Harte last night and asked him about "Monto". He reckoned it was even later than my '40's estimate - he thinks it was written for a John Molloy show as late as late '50's or early '60's - around the time Luke Kelly came back from Engalns.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:10 PM

I thought the same, Martin, but deferred to others. Seems like I read that somewhere. I am digging about now trying to track that down.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:18 PM

... and that was England .......

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Martin. Anything of a documentary nature?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM

Big Tim

Not yet! I'm fairly sure I've seen the details in print at some stage - but no idea where or when, for now.

Regards

Subject: an tSeanbhean Bhocht
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM

an Púca wrote:
"Shanty < seantigh - a new one on me and I don't know: sean would come before tigh (that adjective always precedes the noun it qualifies) so your "teach sean" objection can be dismissed; however, the areas where the old dative tigh is retained as an independent nominative or accusative form also retain a final g sound in the phonetics which would give shantig in English if the derivation were true."

I've heard about shanty before (not the song, sea shanty or chantey, related to chant, 'chanson', etc). I think sean-tigh is a likely derivation because we also have bothy, reputedly from "bo" for cattle. In that case the word order is unusual, I think, but that does happen sometimes in placenames. Also think of the Irish word bóthar" which I read was originally a lane or road wide enough for cattle.

In Scottish Gaelic, the word for "teach" is "tigh" or "taigh" (usually pronounced something like tie). In Ulster and Connacht there are pubs known as "Tigh Jack", "Tigh Ruairí" etc. I haven't noticed people saying "tig" except in Munster; in Donegal it sounds rather like "tee", like the genitive "tí"

also, there is your point that sometimes people base their pronunciation on reading rather than on hearing, and I would also say that people mishear or change unfamiliar sounds (vowels seem to be very mutable tomayto, tomahto) I believe it was common for immigrants to America to speak their names, which were then written down by immigration officials and sometimes the surnames changed from that point on.

I've also heard "is math sin" = smashing, as in mavellous, said to be from Scottish Gaelic. I like this, but I don't know what the evidence or authority for that is. If you want "creative etymology", how about a reference to Greeks having a smashing time with the plates when they party?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:25 AM

An Púca, did you see my message to you on the tune for Tá mo chleamhnas déanta (tá mo chleamhnas á dhéanamh)re Tá mo mhadra scaoilte/díolta? (Radhalum raindí and Téir abhaile have their own threads now)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM

An Puca & Felipa, I for one appreciate your learning and lore.

While I remain positive about "Taliaferro/tolliver," reading the Irish details has made me very shaky about the reported pronuciation of "Mahone." Deep meditation is persuading me that what I read as a teenager was that Gen. William C. Mahone of Virginia (1826-1895) [just checked that!] allegedly pronounced his name as "mahn" or "mah-hun."

Plausible?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Twat
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:19 PM

Such erudition about kissing an arsehole! Makes this site worthwhile.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

Felipa

I must confess that there were high-seas in the Sruth na Maoile of my mind when writing of shanty and I did not consider the Gaidhlic pronounciations. If shanty is from sean and teach then I would consider Scotland the place where it happened. The reason for pubs (and everyone's house in normal usage) being called tigh Sheáin or tigh Mháirtín is that these were mostly used in the dative case due to people traveling to or from them or speaking of something in them etc. All these situations require simple prepositions which in turn required the dative. The same phenomenon of old datives being used as nominatives is seen in placenames (for the same reasons) - therefore Aird instead of Ard etc. This usage of tigh doesn't occur where the adjective sean- could be placed before it in Ireland except in Munster where the final g is pronounced without lenition.

Bothy - this is definitely of Gaidhlic and Gaeilge origin. The word both is in the earliest legal tracts and in the Old Irish glosses and means hut. (In one instance I remember it glosses the Latin for tabernacle.)   We usually use a diminutive form, bothán in modern Irish. I'm sure you still have both North of Malin Head as well, possibly spelt buth these days. Your word for shop could be related and then also the English booth, but I don't know if these have been investigated or not and I am uaigneach without my reference library on the continent at the moment.

I don't recall the etymology of both in Irish only (previous to the etymology of bothy < both) so I can't say if it is based on bó or not without a joyous reunion with Vendryes. However I don't think bothy in English comes from a compound of bó and taigh; rather from both or a diminutive of it. I remember that there is an abstract formation bothas in a 7th century legal text called Críth Gablach and that it meant servile tenancy or cottier status. The person of that status was a bothach.

Bó is however definitely the basis of bóthar.    Another very common word derived from bó is buachaill used in the modern language for a boy. It originally meant a herdsman and we still use it as a verb "ag buachailleacht" to which is added (superfluously among etymologist farmers) "na mbó". This is a bit like saying Oileán Í of Iona when Í already means island (and is cognate of it and isle in English, ile in French etc. - inis a purely native Irish word for island).

BTW, iona is Hebrew for dove and Colm is Irish for dove, so when did it first get called Iona?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM

Re. smashin(g) < is math sin; this etymology actually does not emanate from any folk other than the academic folk. There is no evidence disproving it. However, the evidence for it is merely (90%) the shared phonemes (in Scotland only) and shared semantics.   That's why I mentioned Godel and incompleteness - many things are true but cannot be proven without doubt. An etymology for smashing from smashing, breaking (of plates) cannot be disproved either.

On that side of the scales, you would have to consider the greatest "Irish" word in contemporary English. This one, "craic", has managed to recover from earlier "anglicisation" unlike "pogue mahone" which gave rise to this thread.   This is probably because of the spelling "crack" being usurped by the drug. No one now writes "for the crack" when they mean "for fun" even in the English-language contexts. The word "craic", however, is merely the English word "crack". It was borrowed in slang usage such as "he's cracked (in the head)".   From slang usage such as craiceáil for having fun, craiceáilte for being funny, mad etc. came craic for the fun itself. Earlier printings of "the crack was ninety" were not therefore anglicisations at all but retention of the original spelling of a borrowing from English into Irish. We are unlikely to see again the near contemporary usage of the word in Irish and in Hiberno-English as it is nearly all one-way traffic at this stage - from English to Irish.

It does however show that a breakage can be considered good, which is smashing crack altogether in this context.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:05 PM

Well said!

Regards

Subject: more crack
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM

point taken about booths and bothys - Scottish Gaelic also has the word "bothan" and "buth"; the latter is now used for a shop

Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn féin

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:05 PM

There's no argument about the immediate derivation of English "bothy" from (Scottish) Gaelic, so far as I know; but both Gael. "both, bothan" and "booth" may in their turn derive independently from Old Norse "buð" or a cognate form. MacBain (Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language) cites these and other examples from further languages, including both Cornish and Lithuanian.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Haveth childer everywhere
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM

See here for more about Monto than you really want to know! ( but it still only dates back to 1958.)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Tony sans cookie
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 10:24 PM

Can any of the Gaelic experts translate for me 'Liathroidi' - which appears in a version in a previous thread and was sung in a Dubliners version I have on record?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:53 AM

Thanks to all above for the most enlightening info.

For me, 'Pogue Mahone' in Luke Kelly's rendition of 'Monto' on a scratchy 2nd hand vinyl LP always sounded to me like 'Poke ma hole!'    .

Some sort of Mondegreen?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM

I was wondering when MacBain would be mentioned. Always wise to seek "a second opinion" in relation to the etymologies therein. Having siad that, many of them are correct and an ON antecedent of "both" would be of no surprise. As said previously, Vendryes (in French, paperback, many vollumes) is still the man in this area and it really is time a team-production historical dictionary of both Gaelic languages was available. (Its coming! Its coming!)

I don't want to send those with a casual interest in the wrong direction either -

MacBain the only accessible dictionary of that type available and most of it is grand. Just that you won't know when it is dangerous.

Vendryes - not for the casual browser. Mainly concerned with etymologies (Indo-European roots etc.) of Old Irish forms, therefore not dealing with forms of words likely to occur in current songtexts.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: barrygeo
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:01 AM

Guest Tony

Liathroidi = balls

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM

Dear Mr. Earwicker

I knew we had it somewhere! That nicely confirms Frank Harte's estimate.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM

MacBain was last revised in 1911, and is of course out-dated in many respects. His work is accessible, though (I believe it's on the web somewhere, now) and is still useful, more especially if used in conjunction with other works of reference. I quote him here because the relevant entry is fairly straightforward and uncontroversial so far as I can tell. It is sensible to add a caveat, however, and the point is well made.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

smasher --> smashing, rather than vice versa, as far as I can make out.

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Daithi
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:29 AM

Fascinating stuff for sure...here's another for you: how about codger = cairde? Some nonGaeilge speaker , upon hearing a Gaeilgeoir address his mates as "A Chairde!" took the word to mean old duffers.
(Ok, ok, bainfidh mé mo chóta...)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 07:45 AM

This afternoon, I take a class on Irish Songs and Singing with some foreign students. Amongst other things, they asked me to teach them the Irish National Anthem, which is always sung in Irish/Gaelic. "No problem" thinks I, "I'm sure I can find a phonetic version somewhere on the Net.". Which I did, of course. Mind you, the author of the site, who cannot seem to bring himself to mention the word "English", seems to be under the impression that the song was originally written in Irish and provides a translation into "American" - which is Kearney's original English !

There's nowt as strange as folk!

Regards

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:15 AM

Tony sans Cookie: As an intersting aside, in Father Peter O'Leary's autobiography "Mo Sgeal Fein" in one chapter entitled "Tri Liathroidi Dubha" (Three Black Balls) he describes as as young school boy seeing what appeared to him to be three slender poles with three black balls on top of them on the top of Macroom Castle. He later found out that they were iron spikes holding the skulls of three executed men.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fiolar
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM

Felipa: I agree with you about the usual aspect that the adjective nearly always follows the noun in Irish. There are of course exceptions as in "an sean bhean bhoct" and Peig Sayers' autobiography "Machtnamh Seana Mhna." However to throw a spanner in the works according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "Shanty" could possibly be Canadian French "chantier" meaning a "lumberjack's cabin".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Snuffy
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM

Or an Ashanti dwelling

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 17 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

Martin

A great one I heard once about the Irish national anthem. A group of musicians playing in a pub were asked to play the one with le words "Shoving Connie around the field" in it. No one knew what was being requested. Persistence of insistence the pestilence which followed. Then the enlightenment - "every band plays it, usually the last thing they play." Seo libh canaidh amhrán na bhfiann!

Now there's a phonetic version for you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:04 PM

liathróidí are balls, but testicles are colloquially referred to as stones, at least by Scottish Gaelic speakers I've heard

I don't have time just now to search for info., but I though shanty towns were originally where Irish emigrants stayed. You're welcome to offer evidence pro or contrary.I don't know how long the word has been in English. I do think I've read it in American novels circa 1920-30. You'd have to consider the use of "tigh" in Irish at the time the word shanty starts appearing in English rather than its use at present

Subject: RE: pedantic crack
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:32 PM

more arguments re crack vs craic are at Pedantic crack (at the beginning of the thread)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pierre
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 03:14 PM

Chantier "Canadian French meaning a lumberjack's cabin" - mon cul - peut etre c'est francais pour un "workshop". Qui sait.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM

JOHN KERRY POGUE MO BREACHAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Squinty
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM

For what it's worth, Pogue Mahone is in fact just an anglicised spelling of the Irish (Gaelic) phrase póg mó thóin (the accents indicate long vowels) which does simply mean kiss my ass, or arse as we tend to say in Ireland.

What a fascinating thread on a fascinating website.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bridget
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM

Thank you all! Feeling like the only Irish descendent stuck in an midwestern USA German-Dutch town, I saw "Pog ma Thoin" on a bumpersticker, and finally found the meaning here -- am LOL!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

too many threads to read em all...so sorry if I'm re-wording anyone else....I dont think there's any great indepth reason for the term..simply gaelic is it not?.."pog mo thoin"...kiss my arse.....slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:24 AM

I thought by now that someone would have mentioned Family Mahone a real bunch of ***holes fronted by Radio 1 DJ Mark Radcliffe.
Seen them several times worth seeing live. They have a web site somewhere.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: TS
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

What about The Mahones?..great Celtic-Rock type band from Kingston Ontario...lots of Pogue(or at least McGowan) references in their songs....Slainte!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:02 AM

What about `em? Any three-chord wonder band who knows how to shout obscenities at the top of their lungs can do what they do.

So, obviously, they are a good time.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Annie
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:17 PM

In 1983 a great old guy named Frank Shean walked up to me on the main road in Rann na Feirsde and, pointing to a large bruise on his forehead, said, "Bfhuil me mo sclata cleagann ar toin a bhaile" (pardon my rusty fast spelling.) That transliterally means "I hit the board of my head on the arse of the house"...ie "I hit my forehead on the back of the house".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 05 May 04 - 03:46 PM

or maybe 'a slate hit me from the back of the house', though I don't know that it should not be 'bhi me...', rather than 'bhfuil me...'

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Fear Faire
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:28 PM

Tóin an Bhaile is the name of one end of Rann na Feirste - the bottom of the town(land). Bhuail could sound like "bhfuil" from a Rann na Feirste native. "Bhuail scláta mo chloigeann ar Thóin an Bhaile" possibly - a slate hit my head in Tóin an Bhaile.

Tóin is quite a common element in Irish placenames - the most interesting one being those that are called Tóin le Gaoth or Tóin re Gaoth - arse to the wind - denoting the last resort of sheltering one would suppose. These are anglicised in different ways but the Armagh version Tandaragee would be the best known to Mudcatters and singers I would imagine. Tonragee the most common anglicisation.

FF

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 06:07 AM

I love these discussions of the history, etymology and pedantry behind simple music but does anyone know who lead the pedants revolt?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 07:11 AM

Tanderagee in County Armagh, Toin-re-gaeith, meaning backside to the wind, built on a hill slope facing east, away from the prevailing westerly winds.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Raven
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 01:19 AM

From an Aussie point of view, 'Kiss my arse' is widely used over here as a reply to anything that doesn't deserve a dignified response. Also is has been twisted into 'suck a fart' or 'tounge me (my)pucker'....instead of saying 'kiss my arse you idiot', one might say, 'go suck a fart ya wanker' or 'tounge me pucker ya fucker'

other words you may wish to discuss the origins of are;

Nong - a simple person
Bludger - lazy person, layabout
Bodgy - of inferior quality
Brown-eyed mullet - a turd in the sea (where you're swimming)
Chunder - vomit
Cark it - to die, cease functioning
Clacker - pucker, date, cackpipe, poochute or bumhole
Goopsock - comdom

Now I've given you all the shits......I'll rack off.

PS. Great dynamic you got there.
Raven

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 03:33 AM

What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?

I've no idea.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Brakn
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:06 AM

I didn't think that Mahone was a surname but there are 53 Mahones listed in th 2002 UK electoral register.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 09:35 AM

"What tiler led the Pedants Revolt?"

Although I'm not exactly LOL, I am chuckling inwardly. Good work!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Stephen R.
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 09:04 PM

Most people have probably heard of the legendary Pogue carburetor or carburettor if you like, designed by the Canadian inventor Charles Nelson Pogue in the 1930s and said by some to achieve 200 miles per gallon. It was never produced commercially, because, some say, it was suppressed by the oil companies, which wanted to maximize consumption of gasoline/petrol.

Several years ago a case of Pogue carburetors turned up in an old warehouse in Winnipeg (Pogue intended to call it the "Winnipeg" Carburetor), and were acquired by an engineer named Kevin Mohone. The engineer found that the carburetor performed poorly, but he expected that it would, because the composition of gasoline has changed significantly in the past seventy years. He re-engineered the carburetor to use with today's fuels, and plans to market it as the "Pogue-Mahone Winnipeg Carburetor."

Stephem

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:27 AM

Well, I'm glad this fascinating thread has been revived! Long years ago, my uncle Geordie (in a small place in Donegal) was told, insultingly and "as Beurla", to "kiss my arce". He replied, swiftly and Swift-ly, "If ye'd clean it I might kick it for ye".

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

There is, of course, the story of the first broadway production of The Hostage. Brendan Behan was acting as an advisor to the director, and explained that most Irish homes have a framed picture saying "God Bless this House", in Irish, hung on the wall. Behan generously offered to make such a sign for the set.

It was several weeks before the director found out what Pog mo thoin actually meant...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Alice
Date: 06 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

I have to laugh whenever I see or hear the ads for this popular restaurant in Billings, Montana. Most people in Montana have no idea this name is a take off from kiss my ass, (corrupting Pogue to Pug).   Click here, Pug Mahon's, Billings, Montana

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Grid
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Arseholes are cheap today
Cheaper than yesterday...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Nikon D40
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 10:10 AM

Gadzooks!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

The story popular around here is of the English roofer who got a job roofing a house out by Spanish Point Covent (known locally as Penguin Island). His workmates persuaded him that Pogue Mahone was Irish for 'good morning' so, being the polite feller he was, he would call it out to every nun that passed. He never understood why they all sprinted off at a rate of knots.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Jess
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:26 AM

On the note that many people seem leery that Mahone is an actual surname - it was my grandmother's maiden name and it does indeed rhyme with 'my home'. I'm unsure as to whether it is entirely an American-Irish surname, as I am researching the origins of this surname as I type (which is how I came across this fabulous site!!).

As a humorous side note, growing up in a predominately American-Irish area, the children at my grandmother's elementary school used to shout "pog mo thoin" every time her last name was mentioned. Luckily my grandmother had a wonderful sense of humor. :D

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 03:42 AM

There are several surnames such as Mahon McMahon O Mahoney etc which come from the Gaelic names Ó Mathúna or MacMathúna, rather than being anything to do with Mo Thóin. I havent come across anyone in this country that had an e (without a Y) in the name. It may be an American thing.

I've just checked the Dublin 'phone directory and there are no 'Mahone's in it, but many people with the other variants.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,GUEST,Stronggyrl
Date: 01 Jan 09 - 03:56 PM

Thank you all... I have not laughed my arse off like I did reading all the above entries in quite sometime...

Best of the new year!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,kazwaz1977
Date: 17 Feb 10 - 10:18 PM

I only wanted to know how you pronounce liathroidi - can anyone help please?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Joxer
Date: 18 Feb 10 - 05:36 AM

"lee-road-ee"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,John
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 01:14 PM

Can anyone tell me the Scottish translation for Pouge Mahone ? much appreciated

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:10 PM

Well John, the translation would be the same but in Scots Gaelic there is a bit less softening of the consonants. Pog mo thon would sound as "pawk mo hawn" rather than "pogue mo hone" . In either dialect the message would be "kiss my arse" and would be mutually and clearly understood. :-}

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Declan
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 04:31 AM

It's great to see this thread revived. Despite the slight unpleasantness early on, it developed into a great discussion.

I often wondered what happened to An Púca - I always enjoyed his contributions here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Patrick in Billings
Date: 17 Apr 11 - 01:21 AM

Alice, a group of us play Irish Trad there every Friday evening. Great fun
Great place to have a meal also. Wish I owned the place
Patrick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: meself
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 02:48 PM

Mahone is a family name in Nova Scotia, and there is a Mahone Bay not terribly far from Halifax - scene of some naval action in the American War of Independence - and a 'wooden boat' free-for-all each summer.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:22 PM

I remember an interview many years ago where Shane MacGowan translated the band's name as "Kiss my hole" rather than "Kiss my arse". I don't know how well that stands up in strict etymological terms, but I've always liked the fact that it's that little bit ruder.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Quiet Friday
Date: 02 Mar 12 - 12:01 PM

On the reabsorption of European names from America - the name 'Floyd' is apparently derived from the pronunciation by Ellis Island immigration officers of the Welsh 'Lloyd'. I wonder if 'Mahoney' might be derived from a slightly lackadaisical registration of Gaelic-speaking Irish immigrants.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 01:38 PM

Our band BLARNEY got together recently to record an impromptu performance of our original drinking song "Pogue Mo Hone (A Song in Praise of Drinking)", in our build-up to our annual St. Paddy's Pub Nite gig.
I wrote most of the song while walking my dog a couple of years ago. The tune is about 99% "Rosin the Bow".

BLARNEY sings "Pogue Mo Hone"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 09 Mar 13 - 10:35 PM

my irish is weak, but in scotts gaidhlig the pog is prounounced pok, ma, han(rhymes with pawn)

in ole cape breton it was a common familiar greeting between young guys. don't say it to a girl if she has brothers or uncles.

right up there with"are ya workin" byes"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 12:58 PM

Oh, that's weird - I posted a silly reply that I can't be bothered replicating, and it didn't post!

But the purpose of that posting was to direct people to the http://www.abair.tcd.ie site, where you can type in any word or phrase in Irish and have it pronounced, in either Donegal or Connemara pronunciation.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Mar 13 - 10:38 PM

Can anyone tell me when the Irish language was first written down? and by whom?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:46 PM

old irish was one of the first and oldest written languages in europe. most of what people think of as old irish is actually the literature of late medieval irish and not the old irish. all the gaelics are dialects of old irish, not separatr languages as some say. my gaelic isn't so good but when i was out on the west coast of sithern irish there weretimes i understood basic things better tan the local english. like doractions on the roads and how ro find food drink and a "rest station. which musch surprised me.

there are existing manuscripts from the 9th century, i believe but i would have to look that up. ducuils may be the oldest, again i'd need to research ot. however it's known that the copyists were already recopying from the time of christ for some works, and probably earlier for a few.

after the celtic church was established, they were the educated and literate people in europe out side byzintine territory. they were the denizens of the scriptoriums , so familiar in myth and fact. the irish monks(or those trained in the irish tradition) communicated with each other over thousands of miles and decades byt writting "glosses in the margins of the manuscripts. this is how the oldest irish was rediscovered. theirneissen, the great german philogist, collected all the glosses, and reconstructed the language. with many students they were able to get a complete picture of the language. these copyists wrote poems, a few phrases of music, gossip and theological discussions. most of these monks were dstill pelagians, a catholc heresy, so they hid it in the gaelic glosses.

these copyists were well established in ireland in ad 200, in iona by 450, in lindisfarne(holy island and its branch harrow) by ad 600, across central germany italy by 900 to 1100, all the way to slovenia,where the poem panguar ban was written.

one of the oldest tales gives exact and detailed discriptions of a chariot used circa 1800 bce by central suropean gauls. a chariot style never seen in ireland . showing the teaxts preserved details millenoium old.

the earliest gaelic is found on ogham on stones. hard to date bu there are attemps/

i just had a operation, but i'll try to look up the oldest known irish writing.

the older the writing the more complicted the grammar. the oldest versions have a case and mode system much more complicated than latin,if any of you remember latin class. this allowed the same meaning to be written in about a third the space--very good when you are writting on stones, and allowing poetic complications not easily understandable to anyone who is not familiar with cases and modes. scotts gaelic preserves some of this but not much. an example is you don't have to say "he said " or she said" in scotts, the case change tells you when a woman or man is speaking. you don't have to explain deferential and bowing down talk, the case change tells you you are defering and speaches by the powerfull tell you by case not extra words the speaker is powerfull.

this gets very very complicated in the oldest irish.

so in a general answer, theoldest irish was mostly written down by irish chuch monks from the second century. possibly by druids of the same era. many manuscripts were altered to conform to christianity but a lot is preserved. i would guess it was written quite a bit from the trun of the centuries from bce to ad

Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: ollaimh
Date: 11 Mar 13 - 06:52 PM

ps the dating is getting older and older and older, every decade since the explosion of celtic studies programs. university of toronto has a great one. of course there are many in scotland and ireland.

the bannytine society has preserved thousands of manuscripts of which only a third have been translated. there's acedemic careers there for thos interested.