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Folklore: Pogue Mahone

MartinRyan 16 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM
Malcolm Douglas 16 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 16 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM
barrygeo 16 Feb 04 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,An Púca 16 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM
Mr Happy 16 Feb 04 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Tony sans cookie 15 Feb 04 - 10:24 PM
GUEST,Haveth childer everywhere 15 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Feb 04 - 07:05 PM
Felipa 15 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM
MartinRyan 15 Feb 04 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,An Púca 15 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,An Púca 15 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,Twat 15 Feb 04 - 01:19 PM
Lighter 15 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM
Felipa 15 Feb 04 - 03:25 AM
Felipa 15 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM
MartinRyan 14 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM
Big Tim 14 Feb 04 - 03:40 PM
MartinRyan 14 Feb 04 - 03:18 PM
Big Mick 14 Feb 04 - 03:10 PM
MartinRyan 14 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,An Púca 14 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM
Lighter 13 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Philippa 13 Feb 04 - 11:49 AM
Jim McLean 13 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Philippa 13 Feb 04 - 04:40 AM
LadyJean 13 Feb 04 - 12:24 AM
jeffp 12 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM
Cluin 12 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,Philippa 12 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM
GUEST,Pedant 12 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 12 Feb 04 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Philippa 12 Feb 04 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 12 Feb 04 - 05:39 AM
Daithi 12 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM
Big Mick 11 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM
Lyrical Lady 11 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM
GUEST,Pedant 11 Feb 04 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Maurice 11 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,Pedant 11 Feb 04 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 11 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM
Big Tim 11 Feb 04 - 10:46 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 11 Feb 04 - 06:42 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 11 Feb 04 - 06:40 AM
Jim McLean 11 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,An Púca 11 Feb 04 - 05:51 AM
LadyJean 11 Feb 04 - 12:47 AM
Lyrical Lady 10 Feb 04 - 01:09 PM
Big Mick 10 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:09 PM

smasher --> smashing, rather than vice versa, as far as I can make out.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM

MacBain was last revised in 1911, and is of course out-dated in many respects. His work is accessible, though (I believe it's on the web somewhere, now) and is still useful, more especially if used in conjunction with other works of reference. I quote him here because the relevant entry is fairly straightforward and uncontroversial so far as I can tell. It is sensible to add a caveat, however, and the point is well made.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 07:22 AM

Dear Mr. Earwicker

I knew we had it somewhere! That nicely confirms Frank Harte's estimate.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: barrygeo
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:01 AM

Guest Tony

Liathroidi = balls


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM

I was wondering when MacBain would be mentioned. Always wise to seek "a second opinion" in relation to the etymologies therein. Having siad that, many of them are correct and an ON antecedent of "both" would be of no surprise. As said previously, Vendryes (in French, paperback, many vollumes) is still the man in this area and it really is time a team-production historical dictionary of both Gaelic languages was available. (Its coming! Its coming!)

I don't want to send those with a casual interest in the wrong direction either -

MacBain the only accessible dictionary of that type available and most of it is grand. Just that you won't know when it is dangerous.

Vendryes - not for the casual browser. Mainly concerned with etymologies (Indo-European roots etc.) of Old Irish forms, therefore not dealing with forms of words likely to occur in current songtexts.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 03:53 AM

Thanks to all above for the most enlightening info.

For me, 'Pogue Mahone' in Luke Kelly's rendition of 'Monto' on a scratchy 2nd hand vinyl LP always sounded to me like 'Poke ma hole!'    .

Some sort of Mondegreen?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Tony sans cookie
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 10:24 PM

Can any of the Gaelic experts translate for me 'Liathroidi' - which appears in a version in a previous thread and was sung in a Dubliners version I have on record?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Haveth childer everywhere
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:23 PM

See here for more about Monto than you really want to know! ( but it still only dates back to 1958.)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:05 PM

There's no argument about the immediate derivation of English "bothy" from (Scottish) Gaelic, so far as I know; but both Gael. "both, bothan" and "booth" may in their turn derive independently from Old Norse "buð" or a cognate form. MacBain (Etymological Dictionary of the Gaelic Language) cites these and other examples from further languages, including both Cornish and Lithuanian.


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Subject: more crack
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:57 PM

point taken about booths and bothys - Scottish Gaelic also has the word "bothan" and "buth"; the latter is now used for a shop

Níl aon tóin tinn mar do thóin tinn féin


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:05 PM

Well said!

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 02:10 PM

Re. smashin(g) < is math sin; this etymology actually does not emanate from any folk other than the academic folk. There is no evidence disproving it. However, the evidence for it is merely (90%) the shared phonemes (in Scotland only) and shared semantics.   That's why I mentioned Godel and incompleteness - many things are true but cannot be proven without doubt. An etymology for smashing from smashing, breaking (of plates) cannot be disproved either.

On that side of the scales, you would have to consider the greatest "Irish" word in contemporary English. This one, "craic", has managed to recover from earlier "anglicisation" unlike "pogue mahone" which gave rise to this thread.   This is probably because of the spelling "crack" being usurped by the drug. No one now writes "for the crack" when they mean "for fun" even in the English-language contexts. The word "craic", however, is merely the English word "crack". It was borrowed in slang usage such as "he's cracked (in the head)".   From slang usage such as craiceáil for having fun, craiceáilte for being funny, mad etc. came craic for the fun itself. Earlier printings of "the crack was ninety" were not therefore anglicisations at all but retention of the original spelling of a borrowing from English into Irish. We are unlikely to see again the near contemporary usage of the word in Irish and in Hiberno-English as it is nearly all one-way traffic at this stage - from English to Irish.

It does however show that a breakage can be considered good, which is smashing crack altogether in this context.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

Felipa

I must confess that there were high-seas in the Sruth na Maoile of my mind when writing of shanty and I did not consider the Gaidhlic pronounciations. If shanty is from sean and teach then I would consider Scotland the place where it happened. The reason for pubs (and everyone's house in normal usage) being called tigh Sheáin or tigh Mháirtín is that these were mostly used in the dative case due to people traveling to or from them or speaking of something in them etc. All these situations require simple prepositions which in turn required the dative. The same phenomenon of old datives being used as nominatives is seen in placenames (for the same reasons) - therefore Aird instead of Ard etc. This usage of tigh doesn't occur where the adjective sean- could be placed before it in Ireland except in Munster where the final g is pronounced without lenition.

Bothy - this is definitely of Gaidhlic and Gaeilge origin. The word both is in the earliest legal tracts and in the Old Irish glosses and means hut. (In one instance I remember it glosses the Latin for tabernacle.)   We usually use a diminutive form, bothán in modern Irish. I'm sure you still have both North of Malin Head as well, possibly spelt buth these days. Your word for shop could be related and then also the English booth, but I don't know if these have been investigated or not and I am uaigneach without my reference library on the continent at the moment.

I don't recall the etymology of both in Irish only (previous to the etymology of bothy < both) so I can't say if it is based on bó or not without a joyous reunion with Vendryes. However I don't think bothy in English comes from a compound of bó and taigh; rather from both or a diminutive of it. I remember that there is an abstract formation bothas in a 7th century legal text called Críth Gablach and that it meant servile tenancy or cottier status. The person of that status was a bothach.

Bó is however definitely the basis of bóthar.    Another very common word derived from bó is buachaill used in the modern language for a boy. It originally meant a herdsman and we still use it as a verb "ag buachailleacht" to which is added (superfluously among etymologist farmers) "na mbó". This is a bit like saying Oileán Í of Iona when Í already means island (and is cognate of it and isle in English, ile in French etc. - inis a purely native Irish word for island).

BTW, iona is Hebrew for dove and Colm is Irish for dove, so when did it first get called Iona?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Twat
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:19 PM

Such erudition about kissing an arsehole! Makes this site worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM

An Puca & Felipa, I for one appreciate your learning and lore.

While I remain positive about "Taliaferro/tolliver," reading the Irish details has made me very shaky about the reported pronuciation of "Mahone." Deep meditation is persuading me that what I read as a teenager was that Gen. William C. Mahone of Virginia (1826-1895) [just checked that!] allegedly pronounced his name as "mahn" or "mah-hun."

Plausible?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:25 AM

An Púca, did you see my message to you on the tune for Tá mo chleamhnas déanta (tá mo chleamhnas á dhéanamh)re Tá mo mhadra scaoilte/díolta? (Radhalum raindí and Téir abhaile have their own threads now)


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Subject: an tSeanbhean Bhocht
From: Felipa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM

an Púca wrote:
"Shanty < seantigh - a new one on me and I don't know: sean would come before tigh (that adjective always precedes the noun it qualifies) so your "teach sean" objection can be dismissed; however, the areas where the old dative tigh is retained as an independent nominative or accusative form also retain a final g sound in the phonetics which would give shantig in English if the derivation were true."

I've heard about shanty before (not the song, sea shanty or chantey, related to chant, 'chanson', etc). I think sean-tigh is a likely derivation because we also have bothy, reputedly from "bo" for cattle. In that case the word order is unusual, I think, but that does happen sometimes in placenames. Also think of the Irish word bóthar" which I read was originally a lane or road wide enough for cattle.

In Scottish Gaelic, the word for "teach" is "tigh" or "taigh" (usually pronounced something like tie). In Ulster and Connacht there are pubs known as "Tigh Jack", "Tigh Ruairí" etc. I haven't noticed people saying "tig" except in Munster; in Donegal it sounds rather like "tee", like the genitive "tí"

also, there is your point that sometimes people base their pronunciation on reading rather than on hearing, and I would also say that people mishear or change unfamiliar sounds (vowels seem to be very mutable tomayto, tomahto) I believe it was common for immigrants to America to speak their names, which were then written down by immigration officials and sometimes the surnames changed from that point on.

I've also heard "is math sin" = smashing, as in mavellous, said to be from Scottish Gaelic. I like this, but I don't know what the evidence or authority for that is. If you want "creative etymology", how about a reference to Greeks having a smashing time with the plates when they party?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM

Big Tim

Not yet! I'm fairly sure I've seen the details in print at some stage - but no idea where or when, for now.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:40 PM

Thanks Martin. Anything of a documentary nature?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:18 PM

... and that was England .......

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:10 PM

I thought the same, Martin, but deferred to others. Seems like I read that somewhere. I am digging about now trying to track that down.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM

A Phúca,

To me, anyway, "folk etymology" means at least lacking in evidence and at worst, contrary to evidence.

Incidentally, I was talking to Frank Harte last night and asked him about "Monto". He reckoned it was even later than my '40's estimate - he thinks it was written for a John Molloy show as late as late '50's or early '60's - around the time Luke Kelly came back from Engalns.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM

Orality and Literacy!

The American pronounciation of Mahoney (Ó Mathúna) is a matter of litearacy and the orthography adopted when the name (derived from Mathún < mathghamhain as indicated earlier in the thread) was anglicised.   The rendering of (Ó) Mathúna as Mahoney obviously took place in a prototonic milieu (a lovely word for stressing the first syllable) and would have caused no trouble in a context where the oral pronounciation was known independently of the spelling.

In a context where this "oral" knowledge didn't exist (e.g. in America), the pronounciation was attempted from the written word and became Mahoney to rhyme with Baloney, which is deuterotonic (just as lovely a word for stressing the second syllable).

A parallel to this process would be the pronounciation in England of the Irish surname Moran. In Ireland, this is prototonic (< Móráin) with a long o sound and clipped final syllable. When the Dublin Gaelic Footballer went off to Manchester to play soccer with United, the Irish suddenly heard English commentators say the name with an unstressed initial syllable and a long flat a sound in the final. This was new to a lot of us. Again, just a question of context and whether precedence is given to a pre-existing oral knowledge or to presumed parallels in orthography.

The American long o pronounciation of Mahoney would not have been derived from an Irish pronounciation carried across the Atlantic. The -ún- < -amhn- would not have given a long o sound in any situation (historical phonology is what separates "etymology" from "folk etymology"???).

It is interesting however that the long u sound, stressed in Munster Irish doesn't seem to have survived in any anglicised version of the Ó/Mac Mahon/Mahoney names. Any known instances of surnames containing an element such as Mahoon in the various parts of the mudcat world would be of great interest.

The use of Mahone and reported pronounciation with long o, while interesting, is likely based on the American Mahoney pronounciation rather than derived from Mahon. Sound phoney to anybody?

And in an attempt to save the bearers (pun there?) of Mahon and Mahoney surnames from constant reference to the posterior, let us leave the delicate area for the delicatessen and submit another etymology to the mudcat examiners: Mayonnaise named from a Mac Mahon of the Wild Geese in France. This language contact is outside my area but at least it should give any Mahons or Mahoneys some material to distract people from the pogue mahone stuff.

Unrelated: The Irish surname Flaherty became something like Flarity (under metathesis) in America. I am wondering if another surname, Cloherty, ever underwent the same process giving names such as Clority or Clarity (hardly that, in the area of etymology!). Any instances would be greatly appreciated.

And one final question, does "folk etymology" mean "wrong/incorrect etymology"?

Martin - Is maith sinn agus is maith sin!

Dáithí - galore < go leor, deifinitely. Shanty < seantigh - a new one on me and I don't know: sean would come before tigh (that adjective always precedes the noun it qualifies) so your "teach sean" objection can be dismissed; however, the areas where the old dative tigh is retained as an independent nominative or accusative form also retain a final g sound in the phonetics which would give shantig in English if the derivation were true. That would have to be overcome if the etymology were to be proven.

BTW, anyone read Godel's Theorem of Incompleteness. A "little bit" mathematical, but I'd put it on the required reading list for anyone dealing with etymology.

Oh, while my hand is in it, and as surnames are part of it -

Hooligan - this is from Ó hUallacháin (Houlihan) and represents a stage when the -ch- sound retained more phonetic value than it does in the Houlihan anglicisation.   The word nicely racist to those Irish who are not suffering a mother-in-law née Houlihan.

Larrikin - an Australian coinage, looked on with a little more affection than a hooligan but probably derived in the same way from the Irish surname Larkin (Ó Lorcáin). Used as an adjective as well as a noun in Oz I think (we await confirmation).

Much too much...apologies.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lighter
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM

Back when I was a Civil War buff - long before this discussion - I read that Confederate General Mahone did indeed pronounce his name to rhyme with "my own." (And Gen. Taliaferro pronounced his as "tolliver.")


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 11:49 AM

is bocht do chas!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Jim McLean
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM

Philippa, how about moccasin ... mo cas sin!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 04:40 AM

Although the American way of pronouncing "Mahoney" sounds strange to us in Ireland, I'm thinking it may well have come directly from the Gaelic. There was a huge wave of emigration from Ireland in the mid 19th century (famine time) and many/most of the emigrants would have been native Irish speakers. I'm not sure what Gaelic surname is associated with Mahoney or O' Mahoney, but MacMahon is equated with Mac Mathúna. In Munster Irish, the stress is on the middle syllable of "Mathúna", and it sounds closer to the way the Americans say Mahoney than the way the way the Irish do.

Next we should demonstrate that "Baloney" is an Irish word ... and did you hear the one about the politician Dukakis being not of Greek origin, but Irish; his immigrant forebearer a Dubh-Chathasaigh from Gréig na Manach?

and - seriously - another spin-off from the Pogues was a band called the Popes


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:24 AM

Good Lord! Somebody literally made an ass of him!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM

In the American Civil War, the Confederate Army had a Brigadier General Mahone. The name might have been changed upon the family's entry into the US. It's been known to happen.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Cluin
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM

There is a pub rock band called The Mahones. They sound a lot like the Pogues.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

admittedly, I haven't come across any Mahones either! Malones, Mahons and Mahoneys, yes. In Ireland the latter the "hon" of the latter two names is pronounced as in "honey", while in the US Mahoney has a long "o", as given by Martin Ryan. I think there are a few Irish surnames that are pronounced differently on either side of the Atlantic


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 09:23 AM

Sure is Lyrical - these keys are just too close together.;-)


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 08:08 AM

Never heard Mahone as a surname! Ma-hone-ee as an American version of Mahoney (stress on first syllable), certainly.



Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:44 AM

Since "Mahone" is a surname, pogue Mahone means "kiss Mahone". It is clearly a PUN on pó mo thóin. Tóin is not a naughtly word per se, but I suppose kissing someone's bottom is naughty. There is area of Rann na Feirste (in County Donegal, Ireland) called "Tóin an Bhaile" and I hardly think the residents would translate that as "the arse of the town"!

It seems to me that some of you would also be interested in looking up the "Pedantic Crack" thread.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:39 AM

Dáithí

There's no doubt at all but that lots of words have moved from English to Irish - and vice versa, so to speak! I'm no expert but I know it can be very difficult to establish whether a given case is genuine or represents a "back-creation" where the sound or, sometimes, spelling of a word suggests an origin from another language when, in fact, its either coincidence or something that developed in both languages from a third, common root.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Daithi
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

An Púca 7 Martin Ryan - I often wonder how much of this stuff really is folklore as M. R. suggests. How do you feel about "galore" = "go leor" or "shanty" = "sean tigh" (should be "teach sean", an ea?)

On the other hand it's well established that words have entered English from the languages of countries at one time occupied by the British (e.g. Hindi words - khaki, dekho, snooker ? etc) - so why not from Irish?

le gach dea ghui - Dáithí


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

Isn't it interesting, LL, how they always make a smart ass comment and then try to turn it around. Does the question, "Moi?" come to mind.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:35 PM

Excuse me Pedant...Did you mean to spell "mibht" with a
"g" instead of "b" ....?
I'm sure it was just a slip up.....easily done isn't it?
LL


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:20 PM

Shakey finger there - are you the Maurice who is sometimes called the gangster of love - or is that a different Maurice or then again you mibht be the space cowboy. How do we know from pronunciation whether it has a g or a j? does anyone other than James Joyce write it down?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Maurice
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 04:15 PM

While we're being pedantic, "eegit" is a common pronounciation for "idiot" in the Irish midlands, elswhere (in Ireland) it's "eejit".


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Pedant
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 02:32 PM

Lyrical Lady,
Not a lot of research needed I've only ever posted under this name to this thread.I'm not a frustrated teacher - just frustrated. There may be other pedants posting to other threads.
Big Mick,
And a bloody small thimble at that - have I claimed to be Irish? This is about the only phrase "of that ungodly language" I know - in quotes because it is a quote not my opinion. Don't eat yourself up with your pomposity. Lyrical does a good job of defending herself. I didn't mean to be smug it was intended as a rather arch joke occasionally less of the falling down water is a good idea before I mess with this thing.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

He was jazz critic of the Irish Times for years! I'll check on the details of the show for which it was written - but the basic story is correct.

Monto itself, of course, is older than the song.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 10:46 AM

Martin: "Monto" - 1940s? Surely it's older than that? That stuff about the Invincibles, Skin the Goat, etc relates to the Phoenix Park murders in 1882. Any info on Hodnett?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:42 AM

BTW - I think that "smashing" story, though smashing, is folk etymology.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:40 AM

A Phúca,

"Monto" was written by G D Hodnett for a theatre revue sometime in the late '40's or so. Whether the phrase was in the original, I'm not sure.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: Jim McLean
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM

There was a parody on Westering Home which started 'Festerin hone and a pong in the air ....


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Pogue Mahone
From: GUEST,An Púca
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:51 AM

I would think the reason for the phonetic spelling could be that the phrase is a translation of the English "kiss my ass" which translation took place in an English-speaking milieu. We always thought growing up that the phrase was American and would have heard it from American cousins rather than from neighbours.

In that context, it would be interesting to know if the verse from Monto given above can be dated.

For those who are interested, the phrase which filled the semantic position of pogue mahone in the Irish of my neighbours would have been rendered "kurdevaire mahone" phonetically in English.

And a hidden instance of phonetic spelling of a Gaelic phrase in English would be "Smashing" with the meaning '(very) good'. This is derived from "Is maith sin/Is math sin" meaning 'That is good' and probably entered the English language from Scottish Gaelic. The final 'g' is a hypercorrection where it was felt that the pronounciation smashin was recte smashin'.


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Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Feb 04 - 12:47 AM

A friend taught me pogue mo breachan, kiss my lawyer.

In that my great grandfather, both my grandfathers, my father, and my sister are/were all attorneys, I find the phrase amusing.


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Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:09 PM

Thanks Mick. I appreciate the support.

I've been checking over Pedant's past posts and as far as I can see the only thing she/he has to offer is spelling corrections....how bloody boring!
Pedant must be a frustrated teacher who's without a classroom to practice in or a lawyer whose practise is washed up.

The reason for seeking information on Pogue Mahone is because the mother of a young friend of mine recently got a job working at a pub called Pogue Mahone and he wanted to know if it truly meant "Kiss my Ass"...so I told him I would check in with my friends at Mudcat and get a answer for him. Somewhere in my memory bank I recall that " Mahone" was a British badguy, not well thought of in Ireland. Therefore, I was wondering if Pogue Mahone was a play on words to slander the SURNAME "Mahone".   My research tells me that the word "pogue" in English translates to a derogatory term describing military headquarters or a person of lesser rank.   I just can't help thinking that there is a double meaning to this saying. I've been in many Irish pubs where there have been several banners on the wall either in Irish or Gaelic but I've not come across a saying that has been changed into phonetic english spelling before...therefore I think there could be more to the story!

LL


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Subject: RE: Pogue Mahone
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:25 AM

Actually, I thought she was being ladylike. I would have said much worse to such a smug reply.

Insecure people never miss a chance to lord over others whatever small amount of knowledge they have.

Good on ya, LL, for seeking the answer. Don't worry about the opinion of Pedant. I am sure this person's "Irish" would have a hard time filling a thimble.

Mick


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