Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan

Subject: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:23 AM

I was ambling through the pages of O'Neill's Music of Ireland, and in the O'Carolan section I came across a tune named Una in Irish and Winnifred in English. I thought it was a jaunty tune that people would like, so I have sent it in as a MIDI file to be included in the Mudcat.

Yes, there are two n's in "Winnifred." It is number 644 in the collection. The tune was in F, and I have changed it to G to be more playable for guitar and recorder.

Three things about it. 1. How does one get Winnifred out of Una?

2. There is a G# in the 13th measure. I don't like it - sounds Victorian. I suspect some fiddler of adding it. What do you think?

3. Why would a harp tune be in F? I thought folk harpers preferred sharps.

---

Click to play

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:45 AM

X:1
T:Winnifred
N:O'Neill's 644
N:tempo : moderate
I:abc2nwc
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:F
z6D E|G2G3/2 A/2 G E D E|G2G3/2 A/2 G E D E|A2A3/2 B/2 c2E3/2 F/2||
A2A3/2 B/2 c2A2|d2d3/2 e/2 f2e d|c A G E C D E C|D4D2||
A B|c2c d c A G A|d2d e f2e d|d3/2 c/2 A G E2D E|C c G E C2D E||
F2E F G2^F G|A d d e f2e d|c A G E C D E C|D4D2z2|]

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 11:59 AM

The tune isn't in 'The Complete Works of O'Carolan' nor at Contemplator - at least not by the name 'Winnifred' or 'Una'. It might be under a different name or a misattribution. I'd be curious to learn more.

F, for all practical purpuses, has a sharp - A#. We have harpists here and they play tunes in F all the time. Quite a few of them are Carolan tunes.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Feb 04 - 12:41 PM

Missing 4th measure: |G3E D2 E3/2G/2

This tune sounds to me sort of like a pipe tune that should be written in D with an inherently flat 3rd. I may just need more medication though.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 01:06 AM

tune added - see links above.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:40 AM

G'day leenia,

... 3. Why would a harp tune be in F? I thought folk harpers preferred sharps. ...

Here in Australia ... and, I gather, in most other parts of the world, many fiddlers tuned to a tone lower (against the "Old High Tuning" of the day ... usually British Kneller Hall pitch, where A = 454 Hz, not the modern 440 Hz). Fiddlers found the higher pitch a hazard, particularly with gut strings that could shrink tighter in hot weather (metal strings slacken off in hot weather).


As a result old tunes were often played in "C" and "F", where they would be in "D" and "G" today. The harpist who played with fiddlers would have to comply and tunes in "F" ought to be common in the days when the O'Neills (Capt. and Sergeant) collected tunes from passing Irish musicians in 19th century Chicago.

How that matches with actuality ... or published key signatures is something I have never bothered checking, but I suspect a lot of the tunes played could have been in keys quite unfashionable today ... more than a century later.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:49 AM

O'Neill didnt get his tunes from harpers,presumably, so keys would have related to fiddlers or possibly pianists, not harpists, I suppose.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 12:12 PM

Joe - too many '.mid's in the link at the top. Should be http://www.mudcat.org/midi/midifiles/winnifredtemp.mid

corrected - midi-clone

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Helen
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:51 PM

I tried to listen to the Midi file but the error message said that the source file could not be read. Is that just because someone else was trying to access it at the same time and I should try later, or is there a problem?

Okay, it was only Netscape which had the problem. IE was okay.

I haven't heard the tune before, and if it isn't in the Complete Works or at the Contemplator site it is probably not a tune by O'Carolan, unless it is in there under a different name.

Helen

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:46 PM

Well, whom do we believe, some guy named Contemplator or a well-known Chief of Police working purely for love of music?

I say they should change the name to "The Incomplete Works of O'Carolan".

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Helen
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 09:12 PM

"Some guy named Contemplator" is a woman, and a Mudcatter.   Her site is one of the best on the 'Net in my opinion.

The Complete Works of O'Carolan: Irish Harper & Composer (1670-1738)
2nd Edition, Ossian Publications
1989, Ireland
ISBN 0 946005 16 8

is a work entirely devoted to studying Carolan's music and is based on extensive research. Capt O'Neill did an absolutely excellent job of collecting a huge number of tunes, but many of the attributions could have been hearsay when the tunes were collected from musicians who picked them up from other musicians over time.

If you are not prepared to have an open mind when you put things up for discussion here then I suppose you can dismiss the work of both of these sources. But, if you have evidence to prove that O'Neill has more factual data than the other two sources, then please share that evidence with us.

I am always open to learning more about Turlough O'Carolan and his music.

Helen

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:36 PM

I fully echo Helen's sentiments above. A lot of the tunes attributed to Carolan in the O'Neill Collection are not actually his (which of course is no reason not to play & enjoy them).

Incidentally, Captain O'Neill, though no academic, was a fascinating character in his own right, and Ossian publish an interesting pictorial biography of him which is well worth a read.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 09:11 PM

We all know that O'Carolan lived and died long ago, and that one was keeping careful records of what exactly he composed. Nobody can claim to know whether any piece attributed to him is truly his or not, research notwithstanding.

Lighten up and get out your instruments.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 11:13 PM

Leeneia,

Perhaps you could also "lighten up"? A little self-evaluation of the tone you convey in your post of 14 Feb 04 - 05:46 PM may help you to realise that "lightening up" is a two-way process, as it its opposite which could, in this context, be called "darkening down" a friendly discussion.

Helen

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 11:37 PM

Knowing who wrote or didn't write a tune isn't important to whether or not I play it. I just like knowing the history of the music. The people who compiled the 'Complete Works' and Lesley Nelson-Burns of Contemplator have done quite a bit of research on Carolan. Chief O'Neill collected tunes. It's ALL important.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 06:43 AM

Just for information, the sourcebook for both Carolan's life and music is "Carolan: The Life, Times and Music of an Irish Harper" by Donal O'Sullivan, published by Ossian Publications, 40 MacCurtain Street, Cork, Ireland; who can be contacted on [e-mail]

This book is an update of Dr. O'Sullivan's definitive 1958 work, and was published in 2001. It has replaced Ossian's "Complete Carolan Collection" referred to above (which showed only tunes without text). This volume contains extensive notes on the music plus a biography and a great deal of other historical info. There is also an appendix (which I wrote) devoted to some subsequent discoveries in a manuscript found in Scotland, plus some other updates and an interesting 1779 memoir by the harper Echlin O'Kean.

Leeneia, you might take a look at some of that "research notwithstanding" before dismissing it.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:35 PM

I'm not particularly interested in who wrote the tune. I'm interested in sharing something beautiful that I came across.

Subject: RE: Tune Add: Winnifred, by O'Carolan
From: harpgirl
Date: 16 Feb 04 - 10:54 PM

Well, I do not consider myself anywhere near sentient regarding O'Carolan's music although I know many of the tunes. This one is not one I am familiar with but "F" is a key that many lower registers sound good in. Patsy Stoneman sings in "F" and many autoharp tunes sound good in F.
love, harpgirl