bbc folk awards

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Mart XX
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

It's got to be a good thing that the BBC is recognising Folk music and, at last televising it. We must encourage it.
I, like many others, was surprised and disappointed to see american "country and western" music featured on the show. There is enough confusion in this country about what constitutes "Folk" - most think any music featuring a fiddle or melodion must be Irish, while others remain confused by what went out as folk in the sixties.
If we invite contributions from outside the UK (which I think we should) perhaps we could feature some of the excellent traditional music and song from our nearer neighbours like France and Sweden.
What do you think?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:20 PM

See also BBC Folk Award Winners 2004

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Glyn Owen
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:32 PM

June Tabor was just amazing - she seemed to live the words - but her performance was the only one the sound guys seemed to get right. To give Jim Moray his due, it seemed he had trouble hearing himself (or am I giving him an excuse for being out of time), and his perfomance did remind me of Frank Spencer as well. I think he has got an amazing ear for how folk music could be presented but I can't seem to get on with his voice. Someone had told me he won the unacompanied singer award at Bromyard last year! I'm afraid he wouldn't get my vote in that catagory.
But a great night and well done to the BBC for putting it on.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: okthen
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 08:30 AM

It seems to me that it doesn't matter how little or how "bad" the folk music is on TV if we ALL say "thank you" and "how much we enjoyed it" the BBC will be encouraged to show more of a higher quality.
If we want to see more folk music on TV then we should write to the BEEB and say how good their coverage was and that we are looking forward to more of the same.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Enjoy it
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:28 AM

All people are all "the real folk"

If it had been shown on BBC1 people would moan because it had been on main stream televison. BBC can't win. Lets ban it all and keep the moaners happy.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:21 AM

BUT the fact remains it is a move in the right direction, we previously didn't have anything. It's simply that the structure of the evening is to bring in as many viewers as possible.

If the aim was to bring in as many viewers as possible - why was it shown only on BBC 4?

And I am not too sure if it is a move in the right direction. If the direction is to create more work and income for profesional folk musicians this may not be a bad thing - but is it the only thing?

Is it the right direction to try and turn these professional folk musicians into celebrities like pop and movie stars and further distance them from 'the real folk'?

For have we not been there before in the 60s?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 07:10 AM

Yes, Teresa, My personal taste of course always having precedence over anyone else's...;-)
Ok, dealt with that, now to square the circle...

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Teresa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:33 AM

Ok, at the risk of getting myself in trouble, and with the disclaimer that I didn't particularly care for the Unusual Suspects' brass Arrangement. (Well actually, it did seem like they were having fun, just listening to the calls and whistles when the fiddlers started another tune ...)

How much of an outcry or grumble or etc. was heard from some when fairport Convention and Steel Eye Span came on the scene? Now in some circles they are considered "canon". Oh, I like them, too, bTW. These discussions could be endless. :D

With an enthusiastic nod toward Dransfield and Brass Monkey ...
Teresa

Ok, it's a matter of personal taste.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:13 AM

thanks for the contribution 'enjoy it' but is it that simple ?

I may be a bit long in the tooth but television has been around for fifty years and folk music for thousands of years. to suppose that this crumb off the table tucked away on beeb4 marks a movement towards greater recognition of our preferred music has to be wishful thinking

the optimists amongst us have viewed every short snippet as a 'step in the right direction' for decades and yet in your own words 'previously we didn't have anything'

come and join us cynics - it can be fun pontificating from the safety of your own living room and like me you don't have to have any musical talent at all !!!

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Enjoy it
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 06:01 AM

Why don't the moaners all just try and enjoy something that is for their entertainment. YES I know you don't agree with everything that was screened and indeed didn't like certain things that was screened. BUT the fact remains it is a move in the right direction, we previously didn't have anything. It's simply that the structure of the evening is to bring in as many viewers as possible. This I believe is a good thing, people who watched the programme, in my view, will be more inclined to go to a folk session/concert than not.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:50 AM

Oh god no, not again: 'What is folk music'? Ain't never heard no horses... etc etc.

Led Zeppelin - the loudest folk band in the world! Great stuff, though a pity they didn't pay that much heed to other artists' copyrighted arrangements.

And I *loved* Robin Dransfield's Spencer the Rover. What is more 'music of the people' than a colliery band?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:25 AM

it's not an issue of brass or no brass - it's folk music or not folk music

guitars are used to play folk music but that doesn't make Led Zeppelin a folk band

of course brass can be used to play folk music but that doesn't make the performance of unusual suspects on the night folk music - to me it was some sort of fusion of a style that I personally found distinctly unappealing - despite the occasional thread of folk from some sections of the band

if we want to discuss what is folk music and what isn't we could get really boring

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 05:18 AM

Oh yes, Alan, Brass Monkey. And John Kirkpatrick was saying last week that plans were afoot for another tour and album.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Lanfranc
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 04:59 AM

Brass and folk. It's all down to the arrangement and the mix. "Spencer the Rover" on Robin Dransfield's album "Tidewave" and "When an old cricketer leaves the crease" on Roy Harper's "HQ" are standout IMHO. Don't forget the New Victory Band, and didn't Martin Carthy have a lineup that included brass at some stage?

Alan

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:46 AM

My problem with the Unusual Suspects was not that they used brass but the way it was used. It may have been the sound problems involved but I think that it was more that the brass arangement was not very imaginitive and did not really compliment the other instruments.

The overall effect was like the recent Hogmanay TV show and the way that the BBC generally use the fine musicians in their resident bands.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Teresa
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:41 AM

Warning: minor rant ...

Or maybe the idea of an "awards" program is anathema to the "common folk"? Personally, in my heart of hearts, I enjoy playing and singing, or participating in poetry readings, without judging or being judged. The closest I came to really getting into awards was at summer camp, where every camper got an "acknowledgment" for some one or a few of their characteristics.

but maybe that's just me.

Now if you really want to be a purist, look at the "primitive" societies. People sang and played when they felt like it; not because they were "talented".
Teresa

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:24 AM

Since when is a brass back line part of folk music?

Think of Brass Monkey. Think of NW Morris. Think of West Gallery music before it was supplanted by organists.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 03:14 AM

I think the 'chosen few' invited onstage from an invited audience already comprising of a talented 'chosen few', to sing the closing song with Joan Baez and the title of the closing song chosen - summed-up for me anyway, these awards in this current format. 'You ain't goin nowhere'.

Except for possibly Kate Rusby. Who will be seen next year eating bugs in the Australian jungle in I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here. *Smiles*

A folk awards show that thinks it can leave 'the real folk' out of it - even for one night - is not going to be taking many people with it - wherever it may think it is going.

In my view for this show to have any credibilty - all the nominations and all the voting must be done by 'the real folk'. Why do you think this rather obvious idea is resisted by the producers? Could it be that they fear that the winners established by this method, would not be presenting the image of folk music that the producers wish to show?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM

I was looking for the lyrics of "In my time of need" which Joan Baez sang. No luck on the digitrad - could be incompetence - anyone have them or an address for them?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Teresa
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 04:11 PM

June Tabor rocks! er, folks. :> :-P I liked Martin simpson's John Harding. Personally, I don't rely on the likes of the folk awards for my music recommends, but it was a good excuse to hear some good music! Well, also, because of a teensy snippet of Dr. Faustus, I'm getting their recording. :)
Teresa

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:55 PM

Despite our feelings folk is seen as a minority interest. Good to see any of it on telly regardless of which channel. Life moves on why worry about which channel it's on. Most people have umpteen channels and the trick is to use them to find what you want to watch. no one can force people into watching they might like just by shoving it onto a "major" channel. All in all it was a refreshing break from the usual shit we get fed. This is a good Friday night slot - next week Kate Rusby. Voice of an angel I think - but I haven't heard enough of her to really have an opinion. I think that the programme was shortened and we missed a lot from what I read in the guardian preview. Nice to see my pal Robin get a standing ovation from Steve Earle etc. Jammy bugger got to sit next to Joan Baez too. I'll just have to content myself with being one of life's losers. That and not being too self important.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Since when is a brass back line part of folk music?

Traditional music has been played by brass bands since the 19th century. Jazz, for example, grew out of the folk music of New Orleans in the early decades of the 20th century.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,rafflesbear
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:41 PM

thank goodness for the bloke in the corner - I was beginning to think that I was in a minority of one in thinking that unusual suspects were completely out of place. being on first my immediate reaction was to check the programme guide to see if this really was the folk awards

considering her high profile, how come joan baez gets just one mention in this thread ? (unless I've miscounted) could it be that we are all too reverent to criticize ?

nice to see she hasn't lost any of her acid tongue regarding Arnie being a neanderthal - but hang on - wasn't it joan baez who sang all the protest songs about oppressed people. ok given democracy they elect Arnie isn't that what it was all about ?

grumps over, it was good to see at least some folk music on telly and having got past the opening act I enjoyed the rest of it - but yes they could do more and they could do it better

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Bloke in the Corner
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM

Since when is a brass back line part of folk music? Couldn't hear the free reeds at all, fiddles and whistles fine, but why not leave them alone to play, without jazznig everything up?
I must admit also, I really want to like what Kate Rusby does, but she is, in truth, a bit boring and seems a little too self concerned, though I don't know the lady and wish to cast no aspersions.
At least we were spared the dull wailing of Norma Waterson,plus the Waifs were just fine -GOOD female harp player - and the flashbacks of the mighty Mr Swarbrick were just too short.
Well, them's my views, shoot 'em down if you want to.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Llanfair
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM

To me, Guest, he was about doing what I was doing at his age, trying to make the songs his own. He appeared excited about the traditional songs, and really keen to express them his way.

I was alarmed by the VERY SCARY woodland creatures, but could see where he was coming from. It will be as embarrassing to him in a few years time as the baby photos his mum has are now!!!

I liked The Waifs.

I am a very deprived folkie here in mid wales, as there are no proper folk clubs less than an hour's drive away.

Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 06:16 AM

.... and Danu what about Danu - they were great as ever... and Mr Moray as I said on the other thread this Frank Spencer mimick really did sing about sheep. He definately sang "chew ewes" on more than one occasion in that song. None of the muppets of Farthing Wood apeared to be of the woolly variety either... what is he about?????

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 06:06 AM

Not "the worst", Shambles, that would be too subjective and somewhat dispiriting for the winner, but certainly for honestly trying.

If it is not too subjective to have awards for the best and not considered as dispiriting for those who do not win - I can't see that it would be too subjective to decide the worst. It would at least be more encouraging to the losers of this particular award.

Not that this is a totally serious suggestion.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,Sooz
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:46 AM

My video malfunctioned - I think I'm glad its on again tonight!

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

On the whole I thought the show was excellent, even Mike Harding.
I never liked Jim Moray but he was much better seen ln live performance, [ except for the background film, yeeuch ]. For me the low point was The Waifs, like some teeny weeny pop group.
Overall our great traditions are in good hands.
eric

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:23 AM

I keep hearing that the idea of these awards is to raise the profile of folk music. So is the BBC trying to do this or raise the profile of digital television? Well I reckon whatever it is doing, it is not succeeding. To raise the profile of folk it has to be stuck under the noses of the general public, that means BBC1 or possibly 2. The Beeb and the printed media are a long way from giving folk music the attention it deserves.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:07 AM

Metaphors, even.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 05:06 AM

Not "the worst", Shambles, that would be too subjective and somewhat dispiriting for the winner, but certainly for honestly trying. Something along the lines of "persistence in the face of adversity" (which could be lack of talent, of course, or PEL-related persecution).

Those that regularly attend sessions and singarounds; that strive to learn a new song despite a failing memory; the "newbies" and youngsters that try to cadge a floorspot in the middle of cliques (where they occur); those are the true footsoldiers of folk.

The "stars" are the carriers of the banner. They are needed, and they give heart to the rest. But they never won a battle just waving the flag.

Sorry, can't help it, we Greeks think in parables...:-)

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 04:38 AM

Good point alanabit.

If every time you went fishing - you caught the big fish, you would probably lose interest in fishing. You rather need the blank days - to make you appreciate the good ones.

The same is true of a TV show that is edited to show only the good bits. All the acts were good but you needed a bad, boring performance or just ordinary folk trying their very best to show just how good the acts were.

An award for the worst (but honestly trying) folk performer perhaps?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 04:09 AM

As much as anyone Roger. Folk is for everyone from the academic studying ethnology to the weekender who occasionally joins in a chorus of the "Wild Rover".
I am interested in the idea of capturing the essence of a good folk club (or session) on television. For sure, a very staged concert is something very different and is a lot easier for camaremen to film. The problem for the TV people is that they can never afford to have moments on film when nothing is happening (in the TV sense of that phrase). I think it would be worth putting a good folk club on television, but it would certainly involve a fair bit of cutting and editing. Watching TV and going to a folk club are two different experiences. This reminds me a bit of the debate which we had about the difference between an album and a live performance.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 03:37 AM

I saw bits of it and stayed to watch the Steve Earle concert but gave up after about three numbers- too much of a Dyleanesque drone and his songs (dirges) all sounded alike to me, made me think perhas MY voice isn't too bad after all!

RtS
(but what do I know?!)

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Feb 04 - 02:35 AM

There was a move toward the real folk a little - with the Best Live Act being decided by votes from the real folk. This was won and well-deserved by SoH.

I can't help but wonder what change there would have been to the winners if ALL of the awards were decided this way?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:50 PM

I too had to listen on the radio, can't get BBC4 in wildest Chesham. June melts me anyway, I expected that. I too am underwhelmed by the Moray bloke, but I feel guilty about it too - perhaps I'm not cutting the guy enough slack...give him a chance.

Televised awards for me have one useful function only: to drum up interest in the wider public. Like televising the Rugby world cup did. Or Wimbledon (if we could ever get a Brit to do well there). If this programme achieves the same, then it can only be good.

But me, give me a good singers night at Herga (or any other good singers club) any day of the week. THAT is folk - participatory, flawed, brilliant and from the heart.

I think the Beeb is honestly trying, but it has one hell of a steep learning curve, as it knows (amazingly) sod all about promoting traditional music. Otherwise why does it promote "concert" and "stage" while it ignores "live" and "atmosphere"...

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

He looks like a young Martin Carthy .
Dont like his voice or presentation....Don't want to say too much after being sherricked by Eddi Reader, but his mind seems to be more on promoting himself to the "young team",than feeling for the music.
Junes the sexiest woman in two boots , what a voice ,what feeling ,Brilliant!!!.....Ake

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM

I could only listen and watch the folk awards via the BBC Radio 2 website. But I thought The Waifs were great, and I am definately going to buy Jean Tabor's album.

Not sure about Jim Moray though. MH has been pushing him a lot on his show. What is he like live, Moray I mean?

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Lanfranc
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:58 PM

I, too, am somewhat underwhelmed by young Moray. The "Animals of Farthing Wood" video band was too twee for words, and he performed the song as if it were a murder ballad. (Sorry, should that be "murdered ballad"?)

Liza does grow more like her Mum, soon her protest piercings will begin to look even more inappropriate and possibly even unseemly.

Joan Baez has aged well, but Maddie Prior has become positively matronly!

I bet Joe Boyd's picture in the attic isn't doing as well as he is.

Milkmaid or no, June Tabor still has it - in spades (or buckets?)

Harding is a pretentious prat, but I suppose he does some good.

Ten years ago we'd have laughed the idea of televised "Folk Awards" off the air. O tempora, o mores!

Alan

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,sick of Donkeys dying and ships sinking!
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:33 PM

Tooooooooooo Serious!!!

Folk Music can be fun too!

Had to wait till the break to try and find a sharp knife!

only lively stuff came from the opening band - and that was over produced, under mic'd, and poorly mixed!

No wonder the general public have such a weird idea on folk music if that's how it's presented to them.

Sham Swarb couldn't be there - he might have added some life to the occasion!

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:17 PM

Dont know if the whole idea of "folk awards" is good.
Shambles is right...Folk is becoming too clever. Its best point in the past,was that people could come along to a concert and be part of it all....Sing their hearts out ....raise the roof...what a feeling, a couple of hundred folk all of one mind,bound together by the music.
Now its all about making money and being a celebrity,Grump ,grump,grump.......

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:14 PM

Aye - doesn't she just, Bron.

Good show.

Harding - get a tailor :-)

Cheers

DtG
(With no satorial elegance at all!)

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Llanfair
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:08 PM

Happened upon it by accident and enjoyed every minute!! Major thoughts; None of us are getting any younger, Liza Carthy looks more like her mother every time I see her, and there's definite hope for the future of Folk.

Cheers, Bron.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: okthen
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 06:03 PM

Repeated Saturday night at 11:45pm BBC channel 4.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:50 PM

The Waifs were a breath of fresh air.

Jim Moray's performance reminded me of Michael Crawford's Frank Spencer's performance of the same song. It was the episode where he sings at a holiday camp and has fireworks under his coat........

Martin Simpsons guitar performance of John Henry was brilliant - but it and a lot of the other tight performances left me wishing to see some rough old pub band come on - to thrash out a lively if out of tune version of Wild Rover. It would have been nice to see some evidence of some folk being present.

The nearest thing to this was the Unusual Suspects - although the brass section was not really needed.

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: Willa
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

'Young geezer'is Jon Moray. I enjoyed the show; if you missed it you can probably find it in the archives. June Tabor was brilliant as ever. I put 'Echo of Hooves' on my Christmas list, without success. Must go out and treat myself to a copy!

Subject: RE: bbc folk awards
From: MARINER
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

Iwasn't very impressed by that young Moray chap but he has potential. I enjoyed Martin Simpson and Joan Baez and Steve Earle. June Tabor sounded like an angel as you said, but looked as if she had just come in after a hard day milking the cows.Meanwhile I'm still trying to figure out what the fuss is about Kate Rusby and I was shocked by the sight of the Swarb on oxygen, so sad!! Did you see the last of the Transatlantic sessions earlier in the night?

Subject: bbc folk awards
From: GUEST,alexis
Date: 13 Feb 04 - 05:29 PM

Just watched the folk awards on BBC 4. Wonderful. The Waifs were brilliant, the Martin Simpson song was so boring, June Tabor sang like an angel but reminded my daughter of the mad maid from father Ted. and my wife thought the young geyser who won traditional thingy and album (John Murray ?) fab.
Any thoughts?