Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:16 PM

The last I heard we were going to have Michael Meeking and friend (guitar & fiddle excellent!!!)) performing FRIDAY 7th MAY - Alec was supposed to organise this as I have been working nights for the last 3 weeks and will also be unable to attend tomorrow. If he's sorted something with the landlord great.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:07 AM

Although your MP should help, the issue is really one for the local musicians to take - up with Greenwich Council through their Councillors.

It is not an easy course as demonstrated by my continuing attempts here. The New Star session RIP

However my attempts are not much supported locally, it may make a difference in Greenwich if their was a concerted effort made to get common sense to prevail.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:58 AM

Woodsie, the other night at the Cricketers, Linda and I were told by Alec Goreham, that the Landlord had come to some sort of agreement with the council and was able to have entertainment until Christmas. Is he just talking out of his rear orifice ?

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:17 PM

Our MP is Nick Raynsford - I wrote to him a couple of times regarding the application/interpretation of the law by Greenwich council. I did receive one letter back from him saying that he would investigate the matter. Never heard a thing!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 May 04 - 12:35 PM

What is the latest news?

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:42 PM

Who is the MP for Greenwich?

How about writing him a letter (cc to Tessa Jowell), explaining the Greenwich LA's practice of charging for a PEL based on number of nights, & asking him why they are being allowed to get away with treating the PEL as a taxation measure/income generater rather than a public safety/public order measure?

If the letter is ignored, organise a "session" -- a BIG one -- at the Town Hall (the more bagpipes you can round up, the better! ). Notify your local paper(s) of the opportunity to cover this wonderful news event. Write some clever, catchy songs (suitable for printing in a newspaper!) about the situation. If you get chucked out of the building, continue the session just outside. (If you're feeling ambitious, determine ahead of time which offices belong to the Council Chief Executive and/or the Leader of the Council; if/when you get chucked out, make sure the session continues right outside their offices. If they stick their heads out to see what the **** is going on, be surre to be *friendly*; smile, wave & invite them to join you (that'll *seriously* confuse 'em!). Who knows, they might even send someone to find out what all the fuss is about.)

Make it clear that you will not ask for/accept any money during the session (or they might be able to use anti-busking laws to disperse you).

You might also organise people to take turns approaching the reception desk and ordering beer... explaining that if the session at the Star & Garter had not been shut down, you would be ordering your pints (& playing) there instead...

Think it could work?

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:49 AM

A thought occurred to me. We all assert the (qualified) right to freedom of expression under the Human Rights Convention, but what about freedom of assembly? Assumption it is for mostly trade union purposes, but it doesn't say so.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From:
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 06:59 AM

Never mind - I hear the Woodman in Lee is getting a bit "folky" now they've got different people in.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 05:39 AM

We in Greenwich are totally pissed off! These people have been constantly hounding us. Every time we try and set up an informal music session they home in like vultures. What makes me sick is that we pay for this through our council tax!

The borough is covered in graffiti the schools are crap and the streets are unsafe day & night, yet these new-labour controlled, overpaid shitbots think it is their duty to destroy any culture and creativity that tries to emerge.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:38 AM

We can have two play - but it would have to be the SAME TWO for the whole evening! The council were quite specific about that.

The council's officers may well be specific but that does not mean that they are right or that the law actually supports such a position.
If the case ever came to court the council would have to prove this view. It is possibly not a very good idea just to accept this interpretation without a challenge. Have you tried the local councillors?

This from Hamish Birchall in a letter to my council's legal dept.

Where the word 'performer' is concerned, all that has been said in the Toye case (by way of 'obiter', which as you know is not binding) is that s.182 should mean no more than the same two performers must be allowed throughout the course of the entertainment. And even this conclusion was not fully supported by one of the two judges (Forbes as I recall). Toye therefore has not determined whether or not a member of the public must count as a 'performer' under s.182 if they sing as part of an informal folk session in a pub (or anywhere else).

If it is any help, I can supply details of an event such as this that has been advertised every week snce June 2003 in a pub with no PEL?

My local authority will claim that they have not seen this advert, even though they have written that they examine the local paper on aregular basis. However, it may still be a good idea to get your council's officers to contact Weymouth and Portland Borough Council and ask them how they have enabled this type of activity here without a PEL for so long, when your officers claim they MUST prevent it.   

I can send the details via Email if you contact me. [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:52 AM

Terry - it might be safe in the pub - is it safe for people and property outside when the football fans leave - especially if their team has lost.

It's also bloody stupid that a pub can only be safe for a music session twice a week for a payment of £400 pa, but becomes safe for entertainment 7 days a week merely by paying twice as much again ! - thats how Greenwich council works.

We even have a club (with a membership system) at a lovely venue - The Tudor Barn, Eltham which is unable to get an entertainments license without structural modifications. The problem is that it's a listed building and the council won't allow the landlord planning permission. Who owns the freehold - Greenwich Council.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Limerick Dan
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 06:42 AM

Anybody noyice that this authoritarian control and limitation of personal freedom has only been happening since these new labour shites have been in power!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM

But it is still Bloody Stupid that a pub is 'Safe' for eighty people
to watch Football on a wide screen T V , but NOT safe for forty people to sing and play acoustically !

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 12:03 PM

Although the new act has become law, it has not actually been implemented, which leaves things in a sort of limbo. Even whether the "Two in a bar rule" still applies is open to discussion - so I don't think that arguments on how it is meant to be applied will be very fruitful.

Greenwich council has for some time regarded the granting of entertainments licences as a way of raising some extra revenue - the session at "The Cricketers" proves this. I expect that they are trying to get every last pennyworth out of the old system as in theory a landlord should be able to get a license, merely by ticking a box when he applies for his first license under the new system. I think that it will be very difficult for the council to find any grounds for refusal (or insisting on structural changes) for any premises which they have granted a license under the old system.

The new guidlines have only just been published, but they are only referring to a procedure that will not be implemented for at least another year.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM

What are these "guidelines" that are coming out in at couple of months? - first I've heard of this.

The issue of two at a time or during the course of the evening has been one which is apparently been left to individual councils to interpret how they wish.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:49 AM

Why not have a couple of evenings with only 2 performers ?   It would at least keep the continuity of the event. Linda and I would be happy to do an evening, and I'm sure there's others who could manage a whole gig.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:25 PM

ya I know it would have to be the same two player for the whole evening, thought originally it was just two player at a time, obviously the goal post have been changed, but that Greenwich's interpretation of the ruling, I believe, maybe the pub would be best to wait the couple of months until the guidelines are out, as it would seem Greenwich, and maybe other borough's also charge accordingly to how many nights per week music is played in the pubs, the guidelines will ensure that some borough's do not over charge, as Dave said 'Considering that the main reason for the license is supposed to be to ensure that the premises are safe for the events - it seems strange that paying more money suddenly makes them safe for more nights per week.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:45 PM

We can have two play - but it would have to be the SAME TWO for the whole evening! The council were quite specific about that. We won't be losing the gig - Karen is getting a 2 days a week PEL which will take another couple of months to come through.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM

Why cancel Woodsie??? just have two people only playing, or have the council changed the goal post again?? anyway it's a great pub and landlord so this is one venue we must NOT lose.

rc

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:56 AM

Greenwich council seem to consider the PEL as a type of entertainment tax. They closed down the session at "The Cricketers" until the pub got a PEL. They also base the charge for a PEL on the number of nights that the pub want to have entertainment. Considering that the main reason for the license is supposed to be to ensure that the premises are safe for the events - it seems strange that paying more money suddenly makes them safe for more nights per week.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Bassic
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

Well suprise suprise! I think we should still all go on April 2nd and indulge in spontaneous singing of "God Save The Queen" in 47 part harmony. Then they can arrest us all. Would that make them guilty of treason? Could they still get be-headed......and locked in the Tower? If GS the Q is allowed......the singing of a German Hymn tune........then why not some lovely English tunes and songs? This whole thing is so f**ing rediculous that I may emigrate to Scotland!!!

Dummy spat..........baby thrown out with bath water......nose cut of to spite face..........there, I feel better now!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

Bastards!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM

The next event which was due on 2nd of April has been cancelled. The Greenwich Council Nazis sent the pub a threatening letter.

The good news is that we will be back in a few of months as they have applied for a PEL.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:06 AM

What no post-mortem?

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:38 PM

Little red bull, the well known Tommy Steele hit from Tommy the Toreador?

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Hooter & Fishman
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 01:09 PM

We'll be there!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:31 AM

Oh I thought you were going to sing "Little Red Bull", Richard.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM

Great stuff!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:09 PM

I'd like anything of Olivia Neutron Bomb's that I could get my hands on.

And I'll be there Woodsie, maybe with a traditional folk song by the ROlling Stones (I have another surprise of a smilar kind too now)

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:09 PM

Tomorrow night!

Please turn up and make this a great night to remember!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Tasty Frying Pan Dregs
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:04 AM

I prefer Olivia Newton John's Xanadu... Ooo Bi Doo ...

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 09:56 AM

If you can find your way from "Alph the sacred river" out through the "caverns measureless to man" just look for Greenwhich Park Street. While it's quite a nice boozer it's hardly "a Stately Pleasure Dome" though !

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Kubla Khan
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 07:56 AM

I'm down that way tomorrow, may pop in!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:29 AM

Linda and I are planning to be there. Anything's better than spending an evening with the gang of teenagers who will be staying over for Tom's birthday - we'll probably get back to find the place surrounded by police cars, ambulance, fire engines, the SAS . . . . .

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Blowpipe
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 04:54 PM

Soundz lyke a gud nyte!

I'll try and make it!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Woodsie
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:25 AM

Unfortunately Joe Bazouki can't make it, he's in Japan with The Uke Orchestra!!

Still hopefully plenty of good musicians will turn up.

This Friday (5th March) 8.30pm

See you there!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,Dave K
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM

Thought I'd better put something on before someone does it for me!.
Just to think you can spend a day in historic Greenwich rounded off by the company of Woodsie. What else can you ask for?.
The last Star and Garter was amazing - music all over the place.
Great acts and tremendous company. And it was good to see Dave Bryant in such good voice. No doubt getting in practice for Knockholt. About time Thomas Cook booked for the annual June romp.
If I do not do so much waffling we might get 30 acts on this time.
See you Friday.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,FAN
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM

Ladies & Gentmen D The K is about to enter this thread!!!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: rock chick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:54 PM

watch it Dave B or you will have Dipso, Shelia and myself on too you, there again i think you would rather like that, not sure about us ladies thou ;-/

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:36 AM

Of course - we even tolerate Kazoos and bodhrans - played in the loo only though.   :-)

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: GUEST,China
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:05 AM

Are banjo players welcome:

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 08:19 AM

I bet you booked the trip through Thomas Cook, Woodsie.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 12:08 AM

I did go to Orpington Folk Club a couple of times!!!

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:30 AM

Anyway - it's a bit of a waste of time trying to advertise your St. Albans club on this thread, Breezy. Most of the Folk Mob crowd who go to this session don't like travelling out of the borough of Greenwich. Woodsie regards the annual weekend jaunt at Knockholt as virtually a holiday abroad and Melodeon King is even worse.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:13 AM

And I bet you don't have free beer John.

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: breezy
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:12 AM

Now there's a coincidence! Our folk club meets on a Friday night in St Albans at...and thats where the coincidence ends



sorry but you have to pay to get in to ours.

This Friday Hamish and Lorna at the King Harry
then moving to the Duke Of Marlboro
n/w Mike Sparks
then Paley and Hunter
19th march george papavgeris CD launch - free admision
26th Paul Downes
2nd April Tommy Sands

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Arnie
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

Now there's a coincidence! Our folk club meets on a Friday night in Deal at.... The Star & Garter!! It's a Shepherds Neame pub on the seafront - bet the view's a bit different from the pub of the same name in Greenwich! Every Friday night in case anyone's in the area.....

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:43 AM

No - I just got one - but it did fill my quart tankard !

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: Dipsodeb
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:05 AM

Do you get 2 if you join in each session :))

Subject: RE: Star & Garter Greenwich (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:35 PM

I hope we get a good turnout as it could become a regular gig - There will be a small PA and possibly another acoustic session happening similtaneously in the back bar! I will make sure that the acoustic sessioneers get a free beer this time (if they are eatrly enough!)