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BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...

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InOBU 19 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 08:53 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM
artbrooks 19 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM
Bobjack 19 Feb 04 - 09:56 AM
Dave Hanson 19 Feb 04 - 10:05 AM
Bobjack 19 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 10:24 AM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM
Steve Parkes 19 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM
Grab 19 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM
Peace 19 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM
Chief Chaos 19 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM
Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 01:55 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 02:17 PM
Amergin 19 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM
The Shambles 19 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM
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Raptor 19 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM
Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 03:44 PM
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Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 03:54 PM
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michaelr 19 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM
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Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM
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Metchosin 19 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM
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Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 07:55 PM
dianavan 19 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM
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Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 19 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 19 Feb 04 - 10:50 PM
Little Hawk 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM
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Dita 20 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM
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Sam L 21 Feb 04 - 01:00 AM
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The Walrus 21 Feb 04 - 07:08 AM
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Donuel 21 Feb 04 - 11:01 AM
Strick 21 Feb 04 - 11:33 AM
Peace 21 Feb 04 - 12:05 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 21 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM
GUEST 21 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM
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GUEST 21 Feb 04 - 01:01 PM
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InOBU 22 Feb 04 - 07:49 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 23 Feb 04 - 06:10 PM
Cluin 23 Feb 04 - 07:02 PM
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LadyJean 23 Feb 04 - 11:24 PM
InOBU 24 Feb 04 - 08:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM
Frankham 24 Feb 04 - 05:04 PM
Cluin 24 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM
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Dave the Gnome 25 Feb 04 - 05:42 AM
InOBU 25 Feb 04 - 08:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Feb 04 - 08:51 AM
MAG 26 Feb 04 - 01:43 AM
The DeanMeister 26 Feb 04 - 04:02 AM
Nerd 26 Feb 04 - 10:56 PM
Kim C 02 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM
Kim C 02 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 02 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM
InOBU 02 Mar 04 - 05:45 PM
Gareth 02 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM
dianavan 02 Mar 04 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 02 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM
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InOBU 03 Mar 04 - 01:26 PM
Cluin 03 Mar 04 - 01:26 PM
Peace 03 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM
Backstage Manager(inactive) 03 Mar 04 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 03 Mar 04 - 11:23 PM
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Amos 03 Mar 04 - 11:49 PM
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Peace 04 Mar 04 - 10:51 AM
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Cluin 05 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM
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Subject: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM

Mel Gibson's dad said on radio last night, there was not enough gas to "cremate" six million Jews in Germany... Jews are seeking to control the Catholic church and set up a one world religion and government, Greenspan (the Fed Ecconomic chief) should be hung... Well... Mel Gibson has once said his father never lied to him... Kind'a makes you understand where he's coming from with racist films like "Patriot" and a film where the Jewish people killed Christ and Pontius Pilot was a nice guy who was forced to do it...
Oh my...
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:53 AM

So the jewish people didnt kill christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:07 AM

Not that I'm arguing but what about the Patriot was racist? I don't remember it that well just that it was historicaly inacurate, and made the americans look like they won.Oh yeah and the bad acting.

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:47 AM

Raptor, Jesus was condemned by the Roman's puppet government in Jerusalem and executed by the Roman army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Bobjack
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:56 AM

Chill people. Old folks say the strangest things............... just read most of these threads to see what I mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:05 AM

Who you calling old, Katie.
eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Bobjack
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM

You! You bugger! I bet you are old and grizzled and have a beard. Go on then, deny it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:24 AM

Not this bullshit, again. On offence, but anyone who seriously entertains the idea that six million didn't get murdered or that the Romans didn't kill Christ probably has a really sore back, because he's got his foot in his mouth and his head up his ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM

Mel contends that his script was The Bible!

I haven't read it, Mabey I should.

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

I bet he doesn't believe Stalin murdered ten million Russians either. I'm not going to ask him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM

If you read the Bible, this is what you will find:

1. Jesus was himself a Jew.

2. He preached to the Jewish population in what is now Israel/Palestine/etc...and he also preached to anyone else who would listen, which included Romans, Samaritans, and so on...

3. Rome was running Palestine politically and militarily, and was in charge of legal matters, such as trying, imprisoning, and executing people.

4. The Jewish clergy was in charge of religious matters as pertaining to the Jewish population of the region...this included religious laws, customs, rituals, and so on.

5. The most bitter and deadly enemies of Jesus were the hardliners among that Jewish clergy, the scribes and pharisees. They were the people who hated Jesus and wanted him dead. Why? Because he was changing and greatly liberalizing the Jewish religion, and many common people were following him. Most of those common people were Jews.

6. The people whom Jesus reserved his harshest criticism for were the scribes and pharisees. He accused them (rightly) of hypocrisy, of using their exalted postion in society strictly for their own gain, of not serving God or humanity. He was dead right.

7. The highest council of the pharisees, commanded by Caiphas, decided that Jesus had to die...although he had committed no civil crime. They did not have legal authority to execute him, but the Roman governor did. Therefore, they had to convince the Roman governor that Jesus should be executed.

8. These same pharisees arranged for Jesus to be falsely accused of various crimes, arrested, and brought before the Roman governor (they also had him brought before Herod, a Jewish bigwig of the time, but Herod passed the buck to the Roman governor).

9. The Roman governor, Pilate, interviewed Jesus. He investigated the situation as best he could. His conclusions were that Jesus had committed no crimes against anyone and was an innocent man. He suggested to the Jewish clergy that Jesus should not be executed. They went berserk. They demanded in the strongest terms that Jesus should be executed. Pilate, after some soul-searching, decided that it was politically safer to execute one innocent man than face a possible insurrection in Palestine, which was already a very rebellious and difficult province of Rome. He gave in, reluctantly. He symbolically washed his hands, so as to say, "his blood is not on my hands, but yours" (directing that toward the Jewish clergy).

10. So...the Romans did the actual physical and legal actions necessary to carry out the crucifixion of Christ, because they were the only authority empowered to do so. They did not initiate the accusation against him, were not the moral force behind his condemnation, and had no particular ax to grind in the matter whatsoever.

To say that "the Romans killed Jesus" may be literally true. To say that the Jewish scribes and pharisees killed Jesus is a whole lot closer to the heart of the issue. The Romans were the finger that pulled the trigger...the Jewish scribes and pharisees were the accusing and hating mind that directed that finger to pull the trigger. Where does the greatest responsibility lie?

Furthermore! Most of Jesus most dedicated supporters and followers were Jews and Jesus was a Jew. So if some rich, powerful Jews (scribes and pharisees) decide to falsely accuse a Jewish prophet and conspire to have him killed against the wishes of still other (but not so rich and powerful) Jews...HOW THE HELL does depicting that factually add up to anti-semitism???

If all Mel Gibson has done is to depict factually what is already in the Bible, he is not attacking Jews. If someone chooses to interpret the story in such a way as to find justification in it to condemn ALL Jews then that someone is not playing with a full deck...nor is the person who thinks that such a depiction is anti-semitic either.

As for Mel Gibson's father, yeah, he may well be a holocaust denier. Does that necessarily have anything to do with this movie? Maybe...and maybe not. Why not read the Bible, see the movie, and then decide for yourself?

Jews are exactly like all other people. They do good things and they do bad things. They may be hero or villain. They are not cut from a single piece of cloth. To forget this is to descend into some kind of politically dictated insanity...and you see the results of that kind of purblind thinking in the Middle East on a daily basis...where Jews and Muslims treat each other like subhumans because they cannot look past the dark myth they carry in their minds about "the other".

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Grab
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

My dad said "bloody gypsies, can't keep their hands of anything that's not nailed down". Although we love them dearly, our dads frequently come out with a right load of bollocks... ;-)

Re your other comment about MG's new film, check out the Bible. Paraphrasing: "Who do you want released?" "Barabbas!" "You sure?" "Hell, yeah!" As far as who actually killed him, the Roman army would obviously be doing it bcos they didn't have police back then.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:46 PM

So, Mel Gibson's Father is in denial. So? Mel Gibson has made his beliefs very clear, and they are diametrically opposed to his father's. Why try to tar and feather Gibson for his father's belief's? I'd hate to be judged by some of my Father's beliefs. Who knows... maybe my kids would rather not be judged by mine.

Seems like muddy water in here..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:48 PM

Stoning was the Jewish method of bumping someone off. Crucifixion was Roman. LH is right when he says that the Sanhedren wanted to get rid of the trouble maker. However, the phrasing that Jews killed Christ has been used by Christians to persecute Jews. So, maybe we go to the expression that the Sanhedren killed Christ with Roman help just as today we say that Nazis killed Jews, not Germans killed Jews.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 12:52 PM

Yeah, boy I would hate to be judged by my father's beliefs too. Guilt by association is not a premise I have much faith in. Read the bible. See the movie. Then decide what you think about it. The rest is mere rumour and conjecture.

I suspect that no one will ever succeed in making a movie about Jesus that doesn't upset a whole bunch of people who think they have a monopoly on Truth and Righteousness.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:16 PM

creating a controversy is a sure way of making sure the movie succeeds...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM

So the jewish people did kill Christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:30 PM

No, Raptor....the Canadians killed Christ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM

Those rotten Bastards. Thats it lets get them. Lousy, stinkin, canuck, good for nothing, hangashore, pricks, we otta...   Hey! Wait a minute...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:42 PM

Todays members of the Jewish faith did not "kill" Jesus in the same way that "I" did not harass, kill, enslave, etc. the African slaves or the native Americans.

But we are both cultures with those crimes written large upon our forebears. When asked by Pontious Pilot on the passover which of the prisoners he should spare, in accordance with the hebrew tradition, the people (those making up the population of the area, thus mostly Jews) responded "Give us Barabus", thereby condeming Jesus to the crucifiction.

This in no way should be construed as any reason whatsoever to harass, subjugate, despise or in any other way take things out on the Jews. Jesus new from the moment of sentience that that was exactly what was going to happen. God is after all omniscient.

Unfortunately the people who so oft proclaim to be Christians are likely to be the ones who show the least Christian attitude. I personnaly believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died for my sins, for all mankind to cleanse them of their sins, to forgive them of their transgressions against God. In that same way I can forgive the Romans and the Jews regardless of who nailed who to the cross.

There was a holocaust. It is undeniable. Millions of Jews, gypsies, and those that Hitler and the Reich found undesirable were murdered either by gas, by rifle shot, by starvation or by medical experimentation. May God be merciful to all of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM

I've always been suspicious of people who play polkas.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:55 PM

So Lawerence Welk Killed Christ?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 01:58 PM

Noone is responsible for their parents' views. And when someone says something like "My father never lied to me" they are talking about something rather more personal, not about cranky ideas they ight have had. ("Lying" in any case doesn't mean saying somethig which is false, it means saying you believe something is true, when in fact you really believe it to be false.)

The Gospel account of the Passion has Jesus killed by the Roman occupiers, with the support of some collaborators among the Jewish authorities and population. The kind you get in any occupied country. In the same way that the deportation of Jews and Gypsies from occupied countries under the German occupation was not done without the help of locals and local police and so forth.

The anti-semitic thing is to pretend that this somehow means that there is guilt for this resting on the Jewish people at that time or throughout the ages, any more than upon the people of Rome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:17 PM

Thank you Little Hawk, after reading the opening post I thought all that I recalled learning in Sunday School of what led to the crucifixion of Christ was, in fact, a figment of my imagination. I thought too, that perhaps the lady who who delivered a wacking great blow with a hymnal, to the back of my head when I was 5, during a service, because someone beside me had whispered something, had really inflicted a far harder hit, than I initially remembered.

My dear old mother of 83 has deteriorated into a racist old cow in her declining years. My brother and I believe it is because she has regressed mentally to the age when she first learned her beliefs, but it is hard to say, because she never espoused such crap to us when we were growing up.

Most recent event of many, was when her hot water tank sprung a leak and I sent for a plumber for her. She was aghast as she watched the fellow arrive in his van from her window, then turned to me and said in an outraged tone, "He's black!"

Not long after, we took her to a resturant for dinner, where she proceeded to tell all and sundry within earshot that she no longer watched much television as there were too many negroes on it.

Now I'm not saying that my mother has never lied to me. In fact I recall quite vividly, when I was small, that she told me my cat had run away, when in fact, my father had drowned her in our rain barrel because she was pregnant and my mother never told me the real circumstances of my cat's demise until many years later.

God knows what kind of stuff would come out of her mouth if she was ever interviewed or queried by someone in the media, I have no idea, but I'm damned certain if it were racist or anti-semetic, it certainly wouldn't reflect my brother's nor my beliefs and attitudes.

I have no idea what Mel Gibson's personal beliefs and attitudes are nor have I seen the movie. Film personalities and such, have never been much of a priority on my radar screen, unless they have entered politics, so for the time being, I will withold judgement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM

no no no...I'm sorry I was wrong before...it was Bill Clinton! Bill Clinton killed Christ! He is the one who endangered the soul of the American people with his satanic liberal ways! let's get Bill Clinton! Come on Boys! Maybe we could tie him up to three Nascar racers and have them go in three seperate directions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 02:59 PM

How do those stages go?

My dad knows everything....
Then-
Dad you know nothing....
Then-
As my dad used to say....

I wonder at what stage Mel Gibson is at with his dad?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM

Mel Gibson, by the bye has stated his belief that Christ died on the cross for all of us so that our sins would be forgiven, and we would have a chance for salvation. He was pretty straigthforward about it.
He believes that he bears the guilt for Christ's death on the cross as much as anyone, because of his own sinfulness. That's quite a different interpretation of who killed Jesus than Mel's father. As far as Mel is concerned, he (Mel) did it.

Me too..

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Raptor
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM

So Bill Clinton is a polka playing Canadian?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:44 PM

I think so Raptor, didn't he win a grammy or something like that, year after year, for his polka tunes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

Mel Gibson and movies - still haven't forgiven him for "Braveheart" biggest load of crap I have ever had to endure in my life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 03:54 PM

oops Bill only won one, Walter won a lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:26 PM

So Bill Clinton is a Canadian, Ozzy, American Christ killing polka dancer? Man! No wonder we Yanks could never figure out which Bill Clinton was talking to us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Strick
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:33 PM

"Mel Gibson, by the bye has stated his belief that Christ died on the cross for all of us so that our sins would be forgiven, and we would have a chance for salvation. He was pretty straigthforward about it."

Yep, that about covers it. Worrying about who was there at the time is a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:37 PM

Gibson told Diane Sawyer that he believes in the bible literally, which tells me he's got a screw loose. Seems to run in the family.

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 04:47 PM

Bill Clinton was the guy who did for the cigar what Che Guevera did for the beret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

I guess we'd have to talk to Mel some and get him to expand a bit on that and explain his literal belief in the Bible. I suspect that if you got ten or twelve people together who all claimed a "literal" belief in the Bible, you'd still end up with them disagreeing about the meaning of many passages. The Bible isn't something you read once, like a radio assembly diagram. It's a life study.

brucie - No, Fidel Castro did that for the cigar! :-) Bill Clinton did it for the concept of someone having sex with you, but you not having it with them...at the same time...a concept so complex and subtle that it has to stand out among the most memorable philosophical ideas of all time.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM

(thread drift coming up...)

Interesting points, Little Hawk. But I've always had some questions.

So Jesus was a Jew. Did He practice Judaism? Was it important to Him? He drove the moneylenders from the Temple. So it seems it mattered to Him.

What was going on in the Temple? Animal sacrifice, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. So did Jesus believe in animal sacrifice?

Some believe He was to be considered the ultimate sacrifice for mankind's sins. But He didn't fit the bill according to Judaic custom: it wasn't a blood sacrifice (crucifixion death is by suffocation), He wasn't cloven-hoofed or cud-chewing (as far as we know), He wasn't unblemished (being circumcised), and He wasn't sacrificed by a high priest in the temple.

But if He really was an avatar as Christian doctrine asserts, it hardly seems to matter; what would, really? He could make up His own rules. Did He ever speak out against the blood sacrifices going on in the Temple?

Seems like there might be other questions to ask rather than the pointless one of "Who killed Christ?" when it was meant to happen anyway for atonement of mankind's supposed original sin (whatever THAT was).

Just wondering...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM

Cluin, we gotta get back to the important question here. It's about the aesthetics of hand-rolled cigars and sex. LH is onto something important. His idea opens new areas of the mind to conceptualizations that involve something other than blow-up dolls (speaking of which?) and tawdry thoughts of you know what. In fact, the thoughts are so tawdry that only Canadians would really understand them. Whew. He is an unsung genus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

Mmmm ! So Belson was a "holiday home" - Well when XXX Corps drove north of Hanover in 1945 one of the first units in to Belson was 94th/63rd RA(Anti-Tank) J troop. (M10's, with the 17 pdr modification)

The commanding officer of J Troop, a Lt Williams, had some awkward moments, his troop Sgt used a 0.5" Browning MG to stop the SS Gaurds escaping.( At least that was the official verdict ).

Father suffered nightmares about what he found up until his death in 2001.

So please - No denial of the Holecaust. You dishonour the dead.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM

Well I think you've totally missed the point, Walter Ostanek is the polka king of Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

My ex father-in-law spent three years in a camp. Anyone who says the holocaust didn't happen is a f#ckin' liar. That's as politely as I can put it.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 07:55 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the King of Polka will always be Louie Bashell and His Silk Umbrellas. When the Beatles hit, The Silk Umbrellas were still posting top ten hits in Milwaukee. Can't keep a good polka band down. Kinda like radishes.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

So - Clinton did not polka da intern in Canada and it wasn't even sex?
It would logically follow that Jesus did not die for Canadian sins because they weren't even born then. Close, but no cigar. God created this whole mess so let him figger it out.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 08:52 PM

I think that's a very fair assesment dianavan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 09:41 PM

I think the roots of anti-semitism lie elsewhere. The "Jews killed Jesus" line has been essentially a cover-story for people who wanted to pick on the Jews for quite other reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

The roots of anti-semitism may indeed go back in good measure to the earlier Christian churches' convenient interpretations of Jews as the condemners of Christ. I think it was a major factor in anti-Jewish feeling in the Middle Ages when the Church of Rome held tyrannical sway over all of Christendom. However, there were other reasons behind early anti-semitism. The Jews, like the Gypsies were a wandering people who lived in many lands as a despised and persecuted minority. They made good scapegoats. This tends to happen to wandering minorities who don't belong to the mainstream, and it happened in a big way in the Middle Ages. Anyone who didn't belong to the mainstream could expect to be periodically driven out or slaughtered just because they were different. Jews were also often moneylenders...which meant they were both valued...and hated. Typical situation of moneylenders in any society.

One would think that anyone who read the Bible with some care would realize that it's entirely inappopriate to blame all Jews for the death of Jesus...but how many people read the Bible with care? Most just relied on their priest or spiritual leader to do that for them and then TELL them what to believe, and what to do. Until Martin Luther changed the scene no common people whatsoever read the Bible...only monks and clerics did. Therefore the common people believed whatever tripe the priests decided to program them with.

But hey...gotta answer Cluin's questions! :-) Hmmmm...

So Jesus was a Jew. Did He practice Judaism? Was it important to Him? He drove the moneylenders from the Temple. So it seems it mattered to Him.

Yes, he practiced it. Absolutely. But he went a lot deeper into it than most people of the time ever would have. He most likely studied in the mystery schools in Egypt. Only a few very serious spiritual seekers did that, and it wasn't easy to even get in. He looked way beyond rote practice and ritual. At age 12 he saw deeper into the meaning of the sacred writings than the priests at his parents' place of worship! He astonished them. So, yes, Judaism was profoundly important to him...but the true spirit of it, not the outer forms. He drove the moneylenders from the temple as a symbolic act, cleansing a spiritual place of totally unspiritual concerns in a very obvious way. It took tremendous guts to do that, and what must have been tremendous force of personality...personal authority. I've seen a person like that in action. You don't forget it.

What was going on in the Temple? Animal sacrifice, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. So did Jesus believe in animal sacrifice?

I don't think he did. He never directed people to perform it, as far as I know. I may be wrong on that, though, I'm guessing. I'll have to look further into it. It seems to me that he said God was not impressed with burnt offerings.

Some believe He was to be considered the ultimate sacrifice for mankind's sins. But He didn't fit the bill according to Judaic custom: it wasn't a blood sacrifice (crucifixion death is by suffocation), He wasn't cloven-hoofed or cud-chewing (as far as we know), He wasn't unblemished (being circumcised), and He wasn't sacrificed by a high priest in the temple.

It doesn't matter if it didn't fit Judiaic custom. He was changing things radically, reforming the Jewish faith. His reforms were rejected by the prevailing power structure (which feared losing their power) and they had him killed. He did other things that didn't fit prevailing custom too...like healing people on the Sabbath (you were supposed to do no work of any kind on the Sabbath). It's an interesting story. The Jewish priests rebuked him for it, and he said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath (powerful point!), and continued healing people.

But if He really was an avatar as Christian doctrine asserts, it hardly seems to matter; what would, really? He could make up His own rules. Did He ever speak out against the blood sacrifices going on in the Temple?

Exactly. It doesn't matter. He changed the rules as he went. Yes, he spoke out against blood sacrifices in this manner: he said that people should...Love God with all their heart, all their soul, all their mind, and all their strength. That that was the greatest commandment. That the second commandment was to love your neighbour (meaning any other human being) as much as you love yourself. And that if someone could do that, it added up to more than all the burnt offerings and sacrifices put together. The clear implication being: change your inner attitude of unlovingness and stop wasting your time burning animals' bodies up uselessly. Attend to your inner self rather than engaging in valueless outer rituals. That really is the message of his whole ministry...change your inner state of mind...become a new and loving person inside. If you do, you'll change on the outside too, and profoundly. No need to burn any animals.

Seems like there might be other questions to ask rather than the pointless one of "Who killed Christ?" when it was meant to happen anyway for atonement of mankind's supposed original sin (whatever THAT was).

Yup. It is pointless to ask "who killed Christ?". The point is to ask, "Why did they?" and "What was Christ actually demonstrating and saying to people, and what does that mean now to me?"

Only if you want to, of course... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM

Good discourse, LH. If you believe what Christ taught, his crucifixion was ordained. He spoke about it long before he made his triumphant (to be crucified) entrance into Jerusalem. He was crucified for a reason.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 10:50 PM

"...when the Church of Rome held tyrannical sway over all of Christendom."

That was never true actually, even setting aside that rather polemical terminology. "Christendom" covers the Eastern Church as well as the Western.

Which comes first the chicken or the egg? Having a pseudo-religiuous excuse for wiping out your debts by killing the person to whom you owe money, for example, must have been very convenient at times. When diverting a mob to a scapegoat so that they leave your property alone, it comes in handy too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:11 PM

Quite right, McGrath. I had western Europe in my mind, and forgot all about the guys in Constantinople.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:31 PM

The Jewish "untruths" (such examples as a Rabi testifying to finger-nail scratchs on the "gas-chamber" doors of Dachu)



Have led more than a smattering-of-anti-semites to conclude that "big money" "old money" fuels the fires of Mordor for personal gain...and personal pride.....while in the historical wings, patiently sits Hubris .... soon to command center stage ....perhaps bringing on an overcooked course of baked-crow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:51 PM

Gibson pere should have heard what MY father said about Catholics.

I'm a Presbyterian. We have a great reverence for the Hebrew Scriptures. Like the Jews we respect scholarship, understand the value of money, and lay on the guilt with a trowel. Nobody in my church ever said the Jews killed Christ.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM

We JUST KNOW that The Mel must be Channeling for Christ, because that FANTASTIC script he wrote is in Aramaic!

I'm sure The Mel is so bloody brilliant that he not only reads dead languages, but knows something that linguists and biblical scholars don't know--which is how the long dead folk with Aramaic tongues pronounced the words. FEAR NOT! The Mel makes sure you understand it all, by providing subtitles as subtext, subterfuge, and...

The Mel's career has really been in the toilet lately. He needs a controversy DESPERATELY to rekindle his career. I'm sure he hopes this will be it.

It isn't. No one gives a shit about The Mel, his anti-Vatican II right wing rants, or his bogus movie he claims to be on a par with the work done by the biblical scholars who are resoundingly denouncing his crap film.

Oh by the way, did you know that The Mel is also claiming the pope gave his film two thumbs up?

That's show biz, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 03:03 PM

Even love can become a lethal weapon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 03:25 PM

I always have been hearing Jesus was a Jew, which is probably true. Christians are usually the first to admit this.

The way the Christian church has always depicted Jesus makes him look like the most goyisha looking Jew I have ever seen.

Never seen anyone as gentile looking as Jesus in my neighborhood or at any of the synagogues I've belonged to. Some time ago, I saw a picture depicting what Jesus probably did look like. Very Semitic looking dark features. Almost looked like my Uncle Seymour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 03:51 PM

Even if there's no direct evidence that The Mel shares his father's extremist views, in light of the film and surrounding controversy, can you really blame a person for wondering?

Gibson, like most ludicrously powerful, rich, undereducated superstars, is immune to logic or history, and if he wants to propagate the "Gospel according to The Mel" who can stop him? He's the director and therefore entitled to shade his story as he sees fit. His version of the story of the Scottish rebel William Wallace in "Braveheart" — as any student of Scots history can attest — was a joke, as many of us suspect his Hollywood Jesus movie is as well.

We shouldn't damn The Mel for the bigoted beliefs of his father. But it's worrisome, to say the least, especially when one ponders the fact that it may well be a publicity stunt to draw viewers to "The Gospel According to The Mel" film being released this weekend. Timing is everything, as they say.

And frankly, I do damn The Mel for "Braveheart" and hope he burns in hell for that colossal piece of film excrement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:23 PM

Can't really win in that business - William Wallace adjusted the history as recorded quite drastically, to fit in with current ways of seing the world.

This new film, by contrast, we gather, sticks rigidly to the written sources.

Either way it's clearly the wrong way...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:30 PM

Can't really win in that business - "Greatheart" adjusted the history about William Wallace, as recorded, quite drastically, to fit in with current ways of seing the world.

This new film, by contrast, we gather, sticks rigidly to the written sources.

Either way it's clearly the wrong way...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dita
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM

Nobody killed Christ - ain't that the point of Easter.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 06:59 PM

Well said, Dita.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Sam L
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:00 AM

movies about jesus usually aren't very interesting, I'm not excited. Mel Gibson is okay as a Warner Brothers sort of character actor, like bugs bunny and the rest, he's pretty good at it. Who gets history from movies anyway.
But I once knew a girl who denied the holocaust, and really liked Dan Fogelberg. That was disturbing. Someday we'll all un-DER-stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:29 AM

I see a controversy being brought about by people who haave never seen the film so they are in no position to know whether it is anti semitic or not. I saw the same occur when that movie Last Temptation of Christ came out...people who never saw it were protesting outside the theatres....

That being said i have no interest in watching either one...the only religious film I ever watch is Life of Brian...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: The Walrus
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:08 AM

Just a couple of minor points:
One possible reason for Pilate's 'malliability' at the time of Jesus' crucifixion is that he was an appointee during the era of Sejanus, who had been, later, chopped by Tiberius for treason and therefore Pilate was always going to be a little 'suspect'
(Rule 1:- Keep your head down and don't get noticed)
Patestine was ripe for political/religeous trouble - to be avoided(see Rule 1 above).

Second point: Re: Historical AntiSemitism.

During the Middle ages, Jews were forbidden from apprenticed trades and the 'professions' driving them into the business forbidden to Christians, such as Usury (money-lending) - making them unpopular.
Due to their different religeous practices, in dress, habit and diet, Jews were fairly easy to identify and thus were an easier target for prejudice, part of which involved distinguishing clothing restricted movement<1>, which, of course made them easier still to identify and therefore make scape-goats of.

The Catholic Church didn't help with its doctrine of 'Personal Responsibility' - at some point in history, someone in the hierarchy<2> adopted the idea that ALL Jews were personally responsible for the death of Christ - I am informed that this principle wasn't positively denied by the Church until post WW2 (1946 or 47)

Regards

Walrus

<1> Sound familiar?
<2> Date and name unknown.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 09:45 AM

I pray the film bombs. His, and now his father's evangelizing is scary as hell in my book. And so is the church camp in the mountains that he is building is sounding much too much like a cult of Mel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Don Hakman
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:12 AM

You would not expect me to illustrate this

BUT I DID

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/gibsondad.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:28 AM

Finally found what I went looking for, a Boston Globe article from last November, on the very frightening right wing of the American Catholic Church. And Mel Gibson has professed to being to the right of the men described in this article. Opus Dei will likely be familiar also to the folks on the other side of the pond.

Here is an exerpt (link provided to entire article at the bottom of the page):

The Crusaders

A powerful faction of religious and political conservatives is waging a latter-day counterreformation, battling widespread efforts to liberalize the American Catholic Church. And it has the clout and the connections to succeed.

By Charles P. Pierce, Globe Staff, 11/2/2003

Text of article removed. --JoeClone, 4-Feb-04.

Boston Globe article "The Crusaders"


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,LB
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:40 AM

Little Hawk

Well done!!

There is only one small part I would suggest you think about changing. That is the part,

"If all Mel Gibson has done is to depict factually what is already in the Bible"

I believe it would be better to say

If all Mel gibson has done is to depict as fact what is in the Bible...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 10:49 AM

Why is it no one asks whose translation of the bible is Mel Gibson using as the basis of his script?

To say he uses the gospels, or the bible, as the basis for his film misses the point entirely.

This man, a self-admitted religious fundamentalist and right wing political extremist, is succeeding in pulling off a huge propaganda campaign, to further an extreme right wing political agenda that is going unchallenged by mainstream media.

Considering the political climate we live in, and the takeover of the US government by right wing political extremists engaged in what they see as their holy war/counter-reformation to overturn the social progress of the New Deal, civil rights for minorities and women, defense of the environment from corporate and military exploitation and destruction, etc., the power that Mel Gibson wields, with his ability to buy his way onto movie screens, is considerable.

I view this film as sort of a Hollywood version of a faith based government initiative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:01 AM

The thread was about Mel's Dad being a holocaust revisionist.
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/gibsondad.jpg

Just because Mel's film does not include a single intelligent sentence uttered by a Jews other than Jesus once the "trial" begins, it does not mean Mel is antisemetic.

Mel is a straight forward kind of guy that thinks he knows what audiences within a certain political climate want to see.

Nefarious? no. Prosperous? yes.

The co writer is not that swift either. He said yesterday there are no more Pharises alive.



Bad guys and good guys change places all the time.

Example: Germany opposes America's invasion of "pre-emption".


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Strick
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:33 AM

"What was going on in the Temple? Animal sacrifice, until the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. So did Jesus believe in animal sacrifice?

"I don't think he did. He never directed people to perform it, as far as I know. I may be wrong on that, though, I'm guessing. I'll have to look further into it. It seems to me that he said God was not impressed with burnt offerings."

Jesus's teachings followed a number of the Prophets who argued God wanted goodness, justice and mercy and knowledge of Himself more than sacrifices.

" The co writer is not that swift either. He said yesterday there are no more Pharises alive."

Well, as I understand it, most modern Judism is descended from the Pharisees after the fall of the Temple in Jerusalem (rabbis and synagogues were realtively recent innovations in Jesus's time). That hardly makes modern Jews more responsible for Jesus's death than anyone else. Besides, Jesus's teachings were more in-line with the beliefs of the Pharisees than most folks seem to think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:05 PM

Jesus brought a new 'face' to Judaism. He was Jewish. There is no question about that. His crucifixion follows almost exactly the scenario as written in the Old Testament. But please be clear that claiming to be the Messiah was not and is not a crime in Judaism. It was not punishable by death. It was punishable by ridicule. Christ really irritated both the Romans and the Sanhedren. There was likely collusion to do with Christ's death. But it was a death sorely needed by the people of the time, specifically for the 'rebel' factions in the country. Christ could have left the country, taken a long vacation. He chose to stay and martyr Himself. That He was crucified is quite clear. That He died upon the cross is less clear. We know that "Mark" seems to have been the basis for both "Matthew" and "Luke". I am not convinced that Jesus set out to start a new religion. I am convinced that He set out to change His own religion. His divinity was 'established' by vote at the 325 CE Council of Nicea. And Christian factions existed even then. I do not ever argue the things to do with how people perceive Jesus. I think that is between them and their Lord. But I will and do argue against race hatred regardless of its disguise, because that IS contrary to the dictates of conscience. Jesus likely participated in His own 'death', and two thousand years later many people in this world who would otherwise have no hope, have hope. Not a bad legacy. Not bad at all.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM

Pharisees were legalists and religious exhibitionists, more interested in appearing pious than being pious. They're coming in the windows in America (and I'm sure, everywhere else.) Pharisees were Jewish in Christ's time, but they know no denomination. There may be more Christian Pharisees now than Jewish ones. The only reason why there aren't any Atheist Pharisees is not that Atheists are too moral, but that they don't profess a belief in God.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

Jesus doesn't have a bad legacy, I agree. It's his followers that gave him a bad name, and continue to down to our day.

To dismiss the millenia of persecution by Christians of many of the world's peoples, by saying Jesus was a good guy, ignores the history of the world.

Of course, when you are the last superpower standing, it gives the ruling elite powerful incentives to force the conquering christian agenda down the world's throats, which is what we see happening on the geopolitical level today. Christian religious superstitions as justification for globalisation/world domination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 12:53 PM

Yeah, GUEST, but the good guys don't make the news.

To do with globalization, I don't see that to be a Christian issue; rather, it's a multi-national issue, and lots of folks are in bed with the companies. Lots of government folks. That we elected. That we pay to do the work they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:01 PM

The ruling elite that is driving globalisation, by being the heads of government and heads of multi-national corporations (especially the American and European military/industrialists) are almost exclusively from communities with a christian heritage and lineage though, brucie.

It is impossible to separate one from the other, be they inter-locking directorates of multi-nationals, organized religious denominations, think tanks, philanthropic foundations, or government agencies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:17 PM

So. what was racist about The Patriot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM

GUEST: 1:01 pm. I am inclined to agree, with the following caveat: The leadership of the institutions you mentioned are in bed together, lots. But they ain't all of us, despite that they represent all of us in one way or another. You use gas to drive, but that's a far cry from sleeping with OPEC. I think I understand what you mean. I hope in turn that I've made myself clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 02:48 PM

The Vatican? Centralized, Christian power. The idea started a long time ago. Around the middle ages. When there are a sufficient number of people believing in the same set of principles, you have to divide them to conquer them through crusades and inquisitions. When conquered, you can impose taxes and ritual. The idea of sin and sacrifice was borrowed from the Jews, who borrowed it from the pagans.

My friend, Jesus, whispered a message to me: God doesn't need animal sacrifices, nor does he need you to pretend to eat my body and drink my blood. It is preferrable that you cleanse yourself and respect one another.

Lets not forget that the Kings and Queens used religion as a way of controlling the masses. Whether you are Moslem, Christian or Jew, blind ritual serves to separate you from others. When you think you are different (better) you become oppressive. Which brings us back to the old principle of divide and conquer.

Until we start focussing on our human "sameness" we remain enslaved.

Liberate yourself!

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

I'm sure that sooner or later Bush will liberate me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

brucie - you are too cute. Do you have a picture? I'll bet you look just like Jesus:>)

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 06:31 PM

Naw, I'm just his little angel. HA HA! I made a funny. Actually, I look like--did you ever eat really greasy food then go to sleep? Do you remember those dreams where something was chasing you and you couldn't quite get away but it couldn't quite catch you? Well, if you are one of those people who turned around and saw the face of the thing behind you--I don't look at all like that. My sister once told me I looked like Johnny Cash, except uglier. Another friend told me that if he had a dog that looked like me he'd . . . ya know? So, in a roundabout way, that's what I look like. But different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: open mike
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:45 AM

"(crucifixion death is by suffocation)"
I would suggest that perhaps the actual
cause of death would have been from loss
of blood, as there were nails in hands
and feet and a sword in the side, and a
crown of thorns each of which injuries
would have caused bleeding. preceded by:
a.k.a. hypovolemic shock, low blood volume.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 04:49 PM

Well, I want to go see this movie just to see how Mel is going to work a sadistic British lord into the story.

Though I hear it's pretty bloody. But then the Catholics (I was raised as one) have always had a deep fascination with the blood and suffering in the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

Dead on, Dianavan and brucie. But I must say, after all the wrangling about who killed JC, it came as something of an anti-climax to see Jerry Rasmussen putting his hand up. Jerry, in what sense did you do this crime? Please try to make sense!

LH, there are other sources besides the bible to look at when trying to fathom what went on during Jesus' life and afterwards. For instance if you check on Roman history you will find no record of any custom whereby Barabas was released. But just by looking at the bible itself you should be able to recognise that some of it is fairytales. For instance, what was the source for the story of Jesus's heroic, utterly brilliant self-denial in the desert? Why, it could only have been Old Big 'ead himself! It's my bet that he sexed it up a bit.

Paul's epistles provide some of the earliest records of events in Jesus's life, including the last supper (which incorporated a cannibalistic tradition borrowed from earlier beliefs). Paul, who was not at that supper, says he heard of Jesus's exhortation to "do this in remembrance of me" from God, in a dream. Yet he'd been knocking around with the disciples for years after the crucifixion, especially Peter. Had none of them ever thought to mention the blood-and-flesh stuff?

Mark goes out of his way to play up Jesus's meek acceptance of Roman occupation. I would suggest that this is part of a rebranding that went on after the crucifixion, to present Jesus not as the King of the Jews, which is how he had achieved prominence, but as "Son of God," which is how he achieved immortaility. Such rebranding would have been prudent given the brutality of the Roman regime in Judaea.

Even according to the bible itself, Jews could, and did, kill people who offended against their religion. If that had been JC's offence, he would have been stoned. It wasn't, and he wasn't. But as Matthew's gospel spells out in wonderful detail, Jesus had been born into a royal line on his father's (Joseph's) side, and as such he would have been a focal point for dissent against the occupying forces. (Of course, under the re-invention, Joseph ceased to be his dad, and all Matthew's resarch went for nothing...) Quite enough excuse for the Romans, who crucified people by the hundreds, if not thousands, for lesser reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:49 PM

The way in which Patriot was racist is the definition of unconcious racisim. He makes a film about the most harsh slave state at the time of the revolution, and for most of slavery for that matter, in which all the Black cast members are either freed slaves or the one slave is constantly told by slave owners that they are proud to fight with him, it is not totally unlike his father denying the Holocaust.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM

According to the new Testament, all but two of the disciples should have been naked.... Luke 22:36 ( If you sell you clothes after you have given any extras to the poor, to buy swords, you would stand out in the crowd). Unless they were not listening...


God wants armed nudists!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 06:10 PM

I haven't seen The Patriot, but from reviews I get the impression there's also a certain amount of racism about the English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 07:02 PM

"The Patriot" merely suggests that the English are mostly snobbish and incompetent. And the few who are competent must inevitably be cruel and sadistic.

Kind of like the picture of the Germans in "Hogan's Heroes".


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 10:30 PM

The racism in the Patriot, is the blindness to the reality of Black life in South Carolina, which was a living hell. In the Patriot, one gets the picture of happy smiling children of the kindly massa... makes you want to puke, or, in the case of the many Black people in the audience, when I saw the film, shout at the screan "Oh come on!" or "What's this B*ll Sh*T!?" (no kidding, it was better than the film!) So, I guess his father taught him about the old south as well.
Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: LadyJean
Date: 23 Feb 04 - 11:24 PM

Gibson's a twit, but I would like to point out that "The Patriot" featured a maroon camp. I hadn't known there were maroons, runaway slaves who lived like Africans, in North America. It was an interesting thing to discover.
Now, Gibson's character in said movie raised maize, not indigo, rice or sugar, as a planter in South Carolina would have in the 1700s. The costumer had people travelling in dress clothes. Which was even less likely then than now. I would be amazed if there was that much lace in the whole of South Carolina, as there was in that film.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:31 AM

Hi Ladyjean:
Good points, however, I don't think that the film was about the 18th century, rather, Mel's little speach about, "If you mean by that, that I am against Taxation without representation, I am as much a Patriot as any..." the film is a thinly vieled promotion of the American Christian Patriot movement, the chuckleheads who brought us the bombing of the Morrow Federal Building... it is a plea for the America still longed for by the supporters of Jefferson Davis, it is chock full of observations about the idiocy of federal systems (the contenental army are fools and the Militia are brilliant and progressive...) it was up there with Birth of a Nation and Gone With the Wind, nice camera work but trash content.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM

Whats the point in making a film about JC anyway? We all know what happens in the end;-) Bit like Titanic realy...

So Raptor killed William Wallace?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:04 PM

The bible is not factual. It's not provable. It is inconsistent
in the way of the movie Rashomon. Each apostle had their own
view of what happened and Luke and Mark were not written by
those apostles but by later scribes.

This picture is Gibson's interpretation of the bible and not
factual.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:48 PM

If there was empirical proof that the Bible is factual, what would be the value of faith?

The whole debate over the historical accuracy of the Bible is a non sequitur. Might as well go debate over the number of angels able to squat on the head of a pin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM

The point of making another movie about J.C. is that it appeals to enough gullible youngsters to make them believe that the so-called moral majority has some historical and factual basis. It gives them credibility. Just like the tobacco industry - get em while their young. Make Christianity somewhat glamorous and most definitely glorious and they will flock to the right. You don't think the target audience was anyone over 30 do you?

The box office will also prove that there are alot of Christians out there who never get enough of the same old story. Factual? Please...

The bible is not factual. It is simply the best record of what was previously oral history. Some really good stories though.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:42 AM

Perhaps they should make it with a surprise ending! And who better than Mr G to do it?

Just as he is being hoisted Danny Glover, as Peter, tosses him an automatic.

"Eat lead, Romans..."

No? Ah well. Back to the drawing board.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:42 AM

DtG: I think you are on to something, Glover AND Mel roar up in a hot car, guns blazing, Mel doing his Three Stooges act, then... to make it meaningful Kevin Kostner rides up on a white horse and Mel and Kevin get to battle it out for the "lone white savior" role, in the mean time, Jeasus morphs into Gov. Swartzenegger - as he readies himself to achive his Godhead, and says "I'll be back" at which time our old friend Captain Kirk swings down on the Enterprize, to deliver the returned CHrist as Alien to lift the dieing Swartzenegger from the cross, and hand him over to the EMS guys who rush him off to the ER, where the film is simulcast with the NBC show, ER... they save Christ, the Alien disapears, dark clowds stream over the sky and Moses, the former president of the National Rifle Association, intones... "What the HELL is going on here!" from the clowds above, at which time Jane Fonda begins to blast away at him from a V.C. anti aircraft battery.... Rambo swings in on a vine, grabs her about the middle jip (to make it a music thread see Bonny May) and she falls in love with him ... until he catchs her in bed with Tarzan and CHeeta, in desperation he walks across Africa to wander in the desert, where he meets John the Baptist, played by Michael York, who baptises him, introduces him to Mel's father... who says he liked him in that film where he played the Nazi... they hug and cry... fade to a laughing flea and the end credits roll up...
Wow... what a film!
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:51 AM

You're just being silly now, Larry...;-)

Now will you stop making me laugh out loud in the office?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: MAG
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:43 AM

The NPR reviewer had some very pithy things to say about Mel's Movie, including that it was a 2-hour exercise in sado-masochism.

Unfortunately the Gospels ARE anti-semitic. those text were translated, retranslated, and retranslated; the originals are long gone. Church officials of I think the 4th century CE decided which candidates for the official bible were in and which were not. the texts as we have them come down to us from the by-then Roman church.

The Jewish clergy who were puppets of the Romans hated Jesus; the Romans they were in league with hated him and wanted him dead because anaything that threatened them they wanted dead. Pontius Pilate crucified around 10,000 people while he ruled there. He was hardly forced into crucifying anybody.

the Bible is NOT, NOT, NOT history, much as Mel would like to convince us it is.

As Julius Lester eloquently said on my children's literature discussion group, when Jews tell you something is anti-semitic, believe it.

End of rant. I can't believe I am wasting my breath like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:02 AM

BRIAN!!! WHO ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE???? HE'S NOT THE MESSIAH, HE'S A VERY NAUGHTY BOY!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:56 PM

Here's the problem I have with your logic from the get-go, LH:

"If all Mel Gibson has done is to depict factually what is already in the Bible, he is not attacking Jews."

How does one depict something factually? It is either factual or it isn't. You presumably mean depict accurately what is in the bible. But the bible does not contain only facts.

You yourself begin with a series of "facts" drawn from the bible, such as:

"The Roman governor, Pilate, interviewed Jesus. He investigated the situation as best he could. His conclusions were that Jesus had committed no crimes against anyone and was an innocent man. He suggested to the Jewish clergy that Jesus should not be executed. They went berserk."

Are these actually facts though? Nobody knows. It certainly does not sound like the Pontius Pilate known as a ruthless tyrant from other records, who would as soon crucify an innocent Hebrew as a guilty one.

Remember, the gospels were written after Jesus's death by people who did not know him and were not there. The synoptic Gospels were based on Mark's account, which was probably put together out of sermons Mark heard from Peter.

The goal of a sermon is to prosletyze and prove ideological points, not to depict history accurately. Since Christianity began essentially as a sect of Judaism (that is a group of Jews following Jesus) it would be necessary for the gospel writers (and Peter at the outset) to show how they differed from other Jews, how the Jewish religion should really only be a stepping-stone to the true faith. In other words, it is quite possible that Peter preached that those Jews who did not follow Jesus were to be reviled. That would make Mark, and the gospels that followed it, based on anti-semitic ideology, not on fact.

If Mel Gibson accurately depicts anti-semitic passages from the bible, is he attacking Jews? I think he is. He may not see it as an attack, because he is convinced that every word of the bible is literally true. I don't believe that, so I think Mel may be, at the very least, the vehicle for anti-semitism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:44 PM

Larry, the Continental Army did, in fact, accept black recruits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM

Black Soldiers in the Revolution


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM

Gee, if I thought the NT was a true record of what happened in 1-33 ad I would be rich getting all those contemporary Roman documents printed; but, OC we know there were very few almost no such documents.

Now why would that be?

Maybe the whole thing as presented in the NT is dressed up to look like a far bigger thing? Perhaps the Mithracising Paul and a few more like him decided to gain more power? Who knows.

If you want to read about the opposing view of the event - from believers OC - you should look up the Hamadi texts - banned by the early Church and ordered burned.

Prophet maybe - Messiah ... naw. Besides the millions of Jewish people brutaly murdered during WW2 is a far bigger thing than one in 33 ad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 05:45 PM

Hi Kim: I never said they didn't. One of the first causualties was ... Christopher Attics? I think his name was? Who was Black. The point is, that in "Patriot" you would hardly know there was ANY slavery in South Carolina... a hellish place for slaves.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM

From History -

"Kill them all, God will know his own"

A cynical Gareth

Hmmm ! Which or what God ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:58 PM

Gareth -

Was that said before the church entered Bezier or Carcasonne?

Who said it? I'm not sure.

...and yes, sorefingers, lets just say that Paul, "sexed up" (or down) the documents to consolidate the power. Remember also, that the power of the word was strictly in the hands of the church for many years. Except, of course, for the Jewish scribes and the Arab scholars. But then, they had very little interest in the Jesus story.
I think it is safe to assume that many, many texts have been burned and banned by the power of the Vatican. Isn't that why the dark ages were so dark?

d

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM

You can count me in with Mel's dad!

The final nail in the coffin-of-credibility, was the Rabbi who testified to an eye-witness account of "the fingernail scratchs inside the gas-chamber-doors of the Dachau Gas Chamber."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Research it folks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:45 AM

Crispus Attucks - but if memory serves me right, he wasn't a soldier. I believe he was an innocent bystander, but I could be wrong.

I might could see your point if The Patriot had been a movie about slavery, but it wasn't, and it wasn't even really a movie about history. It was historical FICTION very loosely based on a few real people and events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:26 PM

Hi Kim: Yes it was fiction, however, not unlike if one wrote a film about the valent anti German underground of the town of Auswitz - led by the promenent Jewish citizens, who met at their synogog to discus openly support of the British and Americans, and the film neglected the camp next door, some FICTION is just so unbelievable that one has to question the sensitivity or intentions of the film maker.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:26 PM

I missed your point, Gargoyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

I will echo Cluin: What's your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Backstage Manager(inactive)
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:29 PM

Reading what Gargoyle has said, I have no conclusion other than that he's a Holocaust denier.

Pretty sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:23 PM

Read the history of Dachau.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:37 PM

Approximate web-tutelage-time 8 to 10 hours.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

If you can visit the physical-site allow three hours walk-through for the space...and four hours viewing the exhibit.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Reflect and learn...that totalitarianism affected MANY MORE than a handful of jews.....and the "good-guys" were equally ruthless....the most recent bastion of "freedom" the "net" was shut-down six years ago under Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:49 PM

Garg:

You're flapping again -- check the meds, wouldja?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,,gargoyle
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:53 PM

Max....give me the OK I will start posting the pages.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:05 AM

Three pablum-brained sites from several score:



Start here:


http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=55



http://www.humanitas-international.org/archive/dachau-liberation/lee-john.htm




http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2p60_Weber.html




Sincerly,

Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:30 AM

www.nizkor.org/

You can Google this site if link won't work. Try--

Holocaust Educational Resource (Nizkor)

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:51 AM

Gargoyle,

I went to some of the sites you mentioned. They are sites that contain mention of people like Jim Keegstra, a man who taught holocaust revisionism in his social study classes in Alberta. His license to teach was revoked. Doug Christie is a lawyer who has defended many right-wing people who espouse race hatred and holocaust revision. Ernst Zundel is one of them. Alberta is a place where White Supremacy and shades of Nazism have a small handhold. It's like having vermin in the province. The revisionist sites you have posted are disgusting. If you seriously believe any of that crap ('the Holocaust didn't happen' view of history) I am very sorry for you. But, in truth, I am more sorry for us. People who say that stuff make me want to puke. And having access to those writings on the Mudcat sullies the best site on the internet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:30 PM

hyperboyle....HYPERBOYLE....HYPERBOYLE

Those with the biggest mouth get heard...and unfortuately...believed.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Abraham Foxman
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 08:57 AM

That a seemingly reputable folk music site like Mudcate Cafe would allow itself to be used as a forum for Holocaust deniers like this Gargoyle character brings nothing but shame upon the whole site.

Allowing the Gargoyles of this world to sprout their neo-Nazi lies has nothing to do with free speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM

Actually, it does, Abe.

It also has to do with free will and free thinking. If you want to be a tool and believe all you're told, whether by gargoyle or anybody else, that's your freedom too.

Gargoyle was right about one thing: do the research, then make up your mind.

Of course, if you did do the research I can't possibly see how you could deny the Holocaust happened....


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:29 PM

I agree with Cluin:
And to Garg, I know folks who survived Auchswitz and I assure you it did happen. Small details like scratch marks on gass chamber doors don't disprove the event. I am convinced that millions of Jews where killed for the soul reason of their ethnicity, about 1/3 of the Roma population where killed for the same reason, others, Gays, Socialists, Trade Unionists and disenters were killed for things tolerated in civilized nations and that wounded German soldiers where killed if the German authorities felt there was no chance of what they concidered useful recovery. You are a guy who does seem to try the truth, and I think exposed to more you may change your mind.
To others, beating up on Garg wont change his mind, let's keep things civil, you may notice he (I expect) has been trying to be as caustic but in a much more polite way, and I think caustic and challenging is in keeping with free speach, attacking the speaker is not.
All the best
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:38 PM

Being nice won't change his mind, either. However, he hasn't made his beliefs clear. I fail to see that any reasonably sane individual could deny the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Abraham Foxman
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:29 PM

InOBU,

I never had a chance to meet my grandparents, my aunts and my uncles. They were all murdered at Auschwitz. I grew up without the opportunity to even have cousins.

When I was growing up, many of the people I knew were Holocaust survivors, or like my generation, the children of Holocaust survivors. That my parents survived and went on to have a family of three children, was a miracle in itself.

It is an abomination that the Mudcat Cafe allows Gargoyle to sprout his neo-Nazi hatred here. A responsible forum does not allow itself to be used to spread hatred. Shame on Mudcat for allowing it and shame on you and other defenders, however well intentioned you may be, of Gargoyle and his neo-Nazi garbage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: MAG
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 12:11 AM

arguing with yourself again, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: LadyJean
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 01:26 AM

Did they fake all those godawful photographs from the camps?
The Holocaust never happened is right up there with chocolate cures cancer. I'd love to believe that human beings weren't capable of such cruelty, but I know better. I'd love to believe that my M&M habit will prevent malignancies. That seems more probable than that the holocaust never happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:11 AM

Dear Abraham Foxman:

One of the things that made the Holocaust so terrible is people like some of those above. They do NOT see anything wrong with it. People have become ciphers, and we do not figure in their lives. Jabronski wrote about it in The "Ascent of Man", maybe one of the greater books ever written. His research showed that people condider themselves first and others later.

Jews have always pissed people off because they believe in a single
G-d. The Christian religion believes in a tri-particulate G-d. OK by me, but hard to fathom. With a name like Abraham, I figure you're Jewish. We take our belief from ONE G-d, and we have to address but also ignore people like Gargoyle. They have got bad information.

We are not the first to know people who had their lives taken by Nazi sons of bitches. We may be amongst the last because of our age. I don't doubt that people like him will eventually win. This is not about free speech. This about right. But, that won't matter. You rub it, and it turns into a suitcase. (Remember the guy who does circumcisions and save the foreskins? He takes them to a leather smith. The smith says, "Here's your wallet." The guy says, "A wallet?" The moyle [sp?] says, "Yes, a wallet. BUT, you rub it and it turns into a suitcase.")

There are those of us who have actually seen the numbers on the arms. I am one of those. I don't doubt that we will be considered for a similar fate, because numbers mean so much to people, and people mean so little.

People who think it is a matter of free speech miss the point. It is really about the justification of genocide. People do NOT like us. We have one G-d, and in the process of them getting theirs, we ended up being the bad guys. We will die with that one G-d in mind. Whether
G-d exists or not, we will die with honour. They will kill us with puke because that is all they have--not Christians, but people like the guy who said there was not enough gas to kill that many Jews. We gave them their G-d. What more do they want?

I will be with you at the fence, because there is not much else to do. G-d will sort it out. I may be amongst the chaff, but I will feel good about my death. They will just be dead.

It is tough to be Jewish. But our covenant is written in eternity. Basically, fuck 'em. They are talking about political shit, and we have a responsibility. We will live up to it. Jesus was Jewish, and that likely bothers them more than anything else. Smart boy. People who believe that the Holocaust didn't happen have been sold false information. They have problems. Too bad they make it our problem.

I hate those bastards, because they would have killed my children, simply because. The good side is that I am a really tough sonuvabitch, and when the time comes, I will take lots of them with me.

I know how upset you are. If I were Jewish, I would be upset, too. So, what's new? May they rot in the Hell they created. And may the people who agree with them become Jewish in their next life.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:43 AM

Sorry, Mary Jean,

You said it so well, and I just got it off my chest.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:51 AM

My dear Brother Abraham:
All of us who have family whose ashes are mixed in the fields around the nazi death camps, the German death camps in all the countries they occupied, whose family members were murdered by peasant mobs who were given carte blanch to kill us, whose families were murdered by the death squads are a single family, Roma and Jewish. We could not escape our skins and our blood was our crime. The minority voices on forums such as this wether inspired by hatred of our blood or ignorence give us another chance to bear witness to the missing places at our tables in a greater community than our family gatherings when we alone see the empty places.
On August 3rd, in the past, we gathered for a memorial of shared memory in New York at Temple Emanu El. (I hope I spelled it properly). If we are not together this year, on Ziguener Nacht, know I am part of your family in joint rememberance.
Our witness will keep our memories alive. The greatest fear among Roma is to have ones name forgotten. We join in remember all the names, one name, the murdered in the Holocaust or Poramus.
Thanks to Mudcat for the opportunity to remember together, and I invite Gargoyle to visit the museum of Jewish heritage in New York, to see the Nazi board games on rounding up the Jews, the things made by innocent inmates of villages of death, photographs and objects which make up the evidence. You may never understand or believe, but I invite you to come and see.
Baxt, hai Satimos, hai Shalom Prala.
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 08:57 AM

This is inconsequential thread drift, but I would appreciate it if someone would enlighten me.

Here's my question: Why do some writers, like brucie in his 06 MAR 04 2:11 AM post, substitute the "o" in God with a hyphen, like this: "G-d"? What does that mean? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Abraham Foxman
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 10:10 AM

Brucie,

Thank you for your eloquence. Your words are greatly appreciated.

InOBU,

I understand and appreciate your intentions. However, the historical fact of the Holocaust is beyond question and to deny its reality is an act of hatred against Jews and other groups, like the Roma and others you mentioned.

Similarly, the fact of slavery in America is beyond question. To deny its reality is an act of hatred against African Americans.

It is shameful that Mudcat Cafe allows a Holocaust denier to diseminate hatred. Spreading hatred through lies has nothing to do with free speech.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:56 AM

I may be totally mistaken but I suspect that the garg was trying to be facetious, not giving us his own views but showing us that there is a world out there that continues to deny one of the greatest tragedies of all time, and his attempt went awry.

I surmise this from some of his posts in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:00 PM

Gargoyle,

If that's so, I apologize.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 02:10 PM

The spelling of G-d is a habit I got into years ago. A friend told me about it. So, when the issue might attract Jewish people who feel that way, I spell it like that out of respect for their beliefs. They are not 'allowed' to see the fully spelled out name of G-d. It likely wouldn't bother Reform Jews, but it might Conservative and would Orthodox.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:14 PM

I think when gargoyle said you can count him in with Mel's dad, he pretty much made his position clear, i.e. he doesn't believe the Holocaust happened. Usually, gargoyle just likes mixing things up a bit and hitting nerves to get people worked up here, while just being ambiguously offensive. But this time he slipped up.

Once again, I don't see how all the evidence and eye-witness accounts regarding the Holocaust can be seriously denied by these people... except that they are motivated by hate and bigotry. It is a despicable example of the pure evil that human beings can inflict on one another. How it gets to that point, I can't comprehend.

The NAZIs had a lot to answer for: the Holocaust (which included, in addition to millions of Jews, Gypsies, gays, Catholics, Communists, and anybody else on Adolph & Co's shitlist), eugenics programs, slaughter of children with mental retardation or birth defects, etc. Insanity on a national level.

But I still believe in free speech. And I don't think Mudcat should be vilified for providing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: dermod in salisbury
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 04:17 PM

Although he's been dead for a while, I think Oscar Wilde had a contribution to this discussion when he wrote :For each man kills the thing he loves, let this by all be known, some do it with a bitter word, some do it with a stone'.   

A bit of all of us is responsible for the terrible things humanity does.

Dermod


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

No man is an island.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 06:50 PM

These people are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Perhaps...this will help the pathetic scorching souls within this thread.

The current woman I am dating....is very, VERY Jewish.

I would no sooner gas her....than gas an "un-wanted-dog".....unless it were a simple fart under-the-covers and pulling the sheet over her head.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Time for a long MC vacation.....Saint Paddy's Day seems to require a litte....Germanic Omppaa, Paaa....from an acordian player.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM

Good. Go back to bed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 07:52 PM

I didn't know you were Dutch, Gargoyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

You lot are all sawing sawdust. Christ is dead, the politics of his time killed him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:19 PM

Garg says...
"The current woman I am dating....is very, VERY Jewish..." My Dear GargG. I am surprised at you. This is the definition of oak tree evidence. You may recall that there is evidence that Mr. Hitler's Grandfather (I believe) was Jewish. Further, I am not one who thinks that misinformed = antisemetic. But, also, following your past arguements I should ask if you believe that the whole history of the Holocaust is a lie, or only that there are minute details which have been, in your light, falsified? If you feel that the whole history is untrue, perhapes you should ask your girl friend if she lost family. You will find most Jewish folks did.
Well, I can now include you in the bean eating jokes we sent with regards to Spaw.
Cheers all
Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:16 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/09/movies/09SPIE.html

From today's New York Times, an article about Stephen Spielberg's documentation of testimony of Holocaust survivors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:49 PM

The sort of denial and falsification of the past that Gibson Sr seems to espouse is abysmal and evil compared to the facts that are on record. For example this review of a fgilm based on the last major Germna invasion, that of Hungary, where the decimation of Jews was pursued with adamant insanity long after it was clear the war was lost to Germany and would soon be over.

It is hard enough to sort out the real issues of life on this planet without having to fend off assholes. Don't get me wrong -- I'm an asshole myself, and some of my best friends are assholes. But not THAT kind of asshole. :>))

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM

Steve Feuerstein of WSNR interviewed Mel's dad. Here's what he learned from Mr. Gibson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:29 PM

As a Jew reading through this thread I can relate to Mr. Foxman's resentment of Gargoyle's "facetious" position.

Non-Jews just don't really know what it feels or means to be hated for being a Jew and how hyper-sensitive Jews are to the holocaust, anti-semitism, etc. I know that non-Jews can be sympathetic and overall do not try to be hurtful, but all it takes is one misconstrued comment and the very core of a Jew's whole being can be affected.

Jews know all to well that there are those that deny the holocaust. Coming to this forum and having someone remind us just to be facetious, is really not-acceptable.

Gargoyle, if you have a Jewish girlfriend who as you say is very, very Jewish, I suggest that you dump her before she dumps you. If she is as Jewish as you say she is, your novelty will wear off as her dedication to her religion and heritage will eventually kick in. If not, there is no way she can be that observant. Just make sure you get a good bowl of motzoh ball soup before your inevitable demise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel's Dad... no Holocaust...
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:58 PM

His father in the above link seems to think it is, and should be, an attack. An excerpt from the article:

I learned that all men are not created equal, and those age-old aspersions of deicide against the Jews are as alive today as they were 2,000 years ago.

    I learned that "The Passion" was in fact made so that "everyone would intimately know the line" from Matthew 27:25: "His blood be upon us and our children," the cornerstone of the historic blood libel against the Jews.

I learned that a child's blind honor to a bigoted and racist parent is paramount, and that no wedge will ever be driven between them.

      In short, what I learned from Hutton Gibson and his passion was pure, unadulterated, toxic hatred.

       Perhaps most importantly, there really was a valuable message that I learned during Gibson's two-hour tirade: This vicious cycle of generational hate will end only when sons are courageous enough to stand up to the malevolence of their fathers.


Mel had a nutcase for a Dad and decided he couldn't stand against him. From such material are zealots and other forms of fanatics made.

A


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 29 May 7:25 AM EDT

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