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Thread attitude and courtesy

BSeed 26 Sep 98 - 02:56 AM
BSeed 26 Sep 98 - 03:03 AM
Joe Offer 26 Sep 98 - 03:08 AM
BSeed 26 Sep 98 - 03:27 AM
Pete M 26 Sep 98 - 06:22 AM
The Shambles 26 Sep 98 - 06:22 AM
Frank in the swamps 26 Sep 98 - 07:01 AM
Ewan McV 26 Sep 98 - 08:05 AM
Big Mick 26 Sep 98 - 08:08 AM
Roger Himler 26 Sep 98 - 09:05 AM
Dan Keding 26 Sep 98 - 11:21 AM
Mo 26 Sep 98 - 02:23 PM
Jenny 26 Sep 98 - 06:17 PM
Nora 26 Sep 98 - 06:53 PM
Helen 26 Sep 98 - 07:52 PM
Big Mick 26 Sep 98 - 08:29 PM
Big Mick 26 Sep 98 - 08:31 PM
alison 26 Sep 98 - 09:40 PM
Rodney Rawlings 26 Sep 98 - 09:52 PM
Chet W. 26 Sep 98 - 11:54 PM
gargoyle 27 Sep 98 - 12:18 AM
Alan of Australia 27 Sep 98 - 04:57 AM
Dave T 27 Sep 98 - 08:14 AM
Ian HP 27 Sep 98 - 08:32 AM
John M 27 Sep 98 - 11:15 AM
Chet W. 27 Sep 98 - 11:58 AM
Sheye 27 Sep 98 - 03:10 PM
harpgirl 28 Sep 98 - 08:54 PM
Joe Offer 28 Sep 98 - 09:06 PM
Alan of Australia 28 Sep 98 - 09:06 PM
Big Mick 28 Sep 98 - 09:07 PM
Joe Offer 28 Sep 98 - 09:32 PM
harpgirl 28 Sep 98 - 10:45 PM
Joe Offer 28 Sep 98 - 11:05 PM
skw@ 29 Sep 98 - 04:20 AM
anne.... 29 Sep 98 - 06:42 AM
Helen 29 Sep 98 - 09:10 AM
alison 29 Sep 98 - 09:42 AM
Philip Hudson 29 Sep 98 - 12:02 PM
Barbara 29 Sep 98 - 03:40 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 29 Sep 98 - 04:00 PM
harpgirl 29 Sep 98 - 04:14 PM
Barry Finn 29 Sep 98 - 04:27 PM
Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca 29 Sep 98 - 05:23 PM
Barry Finn 29 Sep 98 - 05:51 PM
Pete M 29 Sep 98 - 06:09 PM
BSeed 30 Sep 98 - 01:42 AM
alison 30 Sep 98 - 09:30 AM
Philip Hudson 07 Oct 98 - 08:11 PM
Philip Hudson 07 Oct 98 - 08:26 PM
the Doppelganger 20 Jul 99 - 11:10 AM
Night Owl 20 Jul 99 - 12:17 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jul 99 - 01:05 PM
Penny S. 21 Jul 99 - 11:22 AM
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Subject: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: BSeed
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 02:56 AM

If you feel like continuing discussing the above target, give Bob Dylan a rest and use this thread. --seed


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: BSeed
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 03:03 AM

Where'd I get "target" and what in the hell did I mean? Who am I and what am I doing here? The subject is thread courtesy and attitude. If you want nastiness, try checking out the harmonica news group. --seed


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 03:08 AM

Good idea, Seed. I'll move my comments over here.
We've kept a nice, friendly, interesting tone to the discussion here for two years now. The recent vitriolic discussions we've seen may seem harmless to some, but they give an air of unpleasantness that taints the entire forum. Mild-mannered people tend to shy away from discussions where there's a lot of nastiness - they don't want to cause anyone to take offense, and they don't want to get jumped on themselves.
This forum is here for people to share their love, knowledge, and enjoyment of music with others. Most of the time, there has been a wealth of good, accurate information in almost every thread.
Lately, though, the tone has changed. It's not just in one thread, either - there are a number of threads running right now that are just plain nasty. I'd like the people who enjoy flaming to take their nastiess somewhere else - the newsgroups, for instance. I'm here to have a good time, to meet nice people, and to learn more about the music I love. I have to deal with nastiness everywhere I go nowadays, since "in your face" attitudes seem to be the fashion and people seem to think they have a right to be offensive to others. Not here, please.
Let's keep this a friendly place - an experiment in harmony, if you will. Maybe, if we all work on it, we can show that people CAN live in peace.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: BSeed
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 03:27 AM

I'll second that. I've only been here for two months, but I have come to feel that this is my home and family; I have felt I am among people I like and admire and resent violations of that atmosphere. --seed


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Pete M
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 06:22 AM

I can only agree Joe, and support you wholeheartedly. If my post to the "Dylan" thread contributed to the air of nastiness then you and everyone else have my sincere apology. It was intended to be ironic, but obviously was not read that way. I'll be more careful in future.

As Mick says, the only way to deal effectively with those who enjoy causing problems is to deny them the sense of control they seek, by ignoring them.

Best wishes

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 06:22 AM

Seed I feel at home here too and for the reasons that Joe mentioned. I think we should bear in mind that there are new people joining all the time and that we should be making them welcome and not giving the impression that it is a cosy place to which they do not belong and cannot contribute. I don't feel that is the the case at the moment but it is something that needs to be worked at all the time. Thank you all for all the help and debate so far, long may it continue.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 07:01 AM

First, I offer my apologies to all the civil members (nearly everybody) of the forum for allowing myself to be drawn down to a base level in the Dylan thread. The Mudcat is a magnificent resource; from song searches to lyric clarification, rousing debates sparked by a song, and lighthearted banter, we got it all! When someone initiates the moronic namecalling I become all the more incensed because this is so rare, and so easily lost.

Max has given us a great place to hang, and the fact that it is an open forum makes it limitless. Max may not want to moderate the forum, and wish to preserve its open nature, but in a sense it's out of his hands. It's up to us, if we let it degenerate, it'll all be over because the rational folk will leave. I, for one, promise to redouble my efforts to ignore the inconsequential baiting of midges & gnats.

Frank i.t.s.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Ewan McV
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 08:05 AM

As a recent arrival I've been impressed by the positive and mutually respectful atmosphere, so was startled by the sneering that arrived in the midst of the discussion on intellectual property (approximate title)in the last couple of days. Looks like it is the exception. Good.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 08:08 AM

For all you newcomers, first: welcome. Second, if you read just the seven contributions above mine, you will get a sense of what we are about here. Nothing above should be interpreted as discouraging debate. We have many of those. All we are asking is that it remain a civil and caring debate. Keep your mind open and your responses thoughtful and you have much to gain here. Members of this community come from around the world, and have many different backgrounds and cultures.

Joe, Seed, Frank, and Shambles, I am absolutely with you. Speaking as one who spends his days in all the activities associated with collective bargaining, you can imagine that when I come home I can't wait to get to the Mudcat Cafe and some talk about music and issues to unwind. I am all for spirited debate on issues,and even a little teasing (Perry Como, need I say more:-)) I just don't need the nastiness and namecalling that I have seen popping up. Even though I have never seen the faces, of all of you including Max, Dick, Art, Alison, Jenny, Barbara, northport et al, I feel we have become friends and neighbors and it is up to us to keep this place a great online place to be.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Roger Himler
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 09:05 AM

On my honor I will do my best, to do my duty to the Mudcat, to maintain a sense of humor, to refrain from name-calling and character assassination, to be gramatically correct (whenever possible), and to let my love of this music and my fellow Mudcatters shine through all the time.

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Dan Keding
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 11:21 AM

The comments on this thread are indeed music to my ears. My time on the road prevents me from being too active but it is discouraging to read some of the curent threads and see the degree of sarcasm and mean spiritedness that just seems to flow. It is important to discuss intellectual property abd those other issues that can bring out the worst in us. But we don't have to let that happen. Let's keep the spirit of this forum covil and friendly. We all win every argument if we can do that.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Mo
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 02:23 PM

Just in case I'm one of the malefactors - having been one of the earlier contributors to the Dylan Thread and a newbie myself - may I too offer my apologies for any supposed ill-will. Mudcat seems too precious a jewel to be tarnished like that. I wouldn't have it for the world.

Mo


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Jenny
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 06:17 PM

I mentioned earlier that I feel somewhat sheltered from all the "debris" in the Mudcat and look forward to a long relationship. I remember when I first found the site and somewhat used the word "lurker" and I was offended. It was Joe who basically told me to step out of my comfort zone and start contributing. It's been a wonderful way for me to communicate some of the feelings I've had toward society and folk music, over the years. There are several with whom I enjoy "chatting." We don't always agree, but we do respect one another. Let's keep on keeping on ... Peace ... Jenny


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Nora
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 06:53 PM

Cyberspace is an odd thing. There is immediacy and spontaneity and intimacy to it that don't happen anywhere else. However, most of us are unaccustomed to expressing our thoughts in writing, and tone is especially difficult to convey without context. Even though we share interests and a love of music, we do not know each other, and we cannot assume that our remarks are understood in the spirit we offer them. Irony and humor are particularly difficult to convey onscreen. Many email/cyberspace veterans make do with cumbersome and awkward 'emoticons' (the :) smileyface, for example) or bracketed comments that indicate tone (, for example).

And it is a sad fact of public life today that many of us are just not equipped to deal with irony, sarcasm, or satire any more. It's a kind of emotional equivalent to multiple chemical sensitivities or something (just a theory I have). We've been exposed to enough of it already and we can't help but overreact.

Let's please just be clear and respectful with each other and utilize the personal message options for things that are off topic in the threads or are more appropriately addressed to just one or two others. It's a wonderful way to talk to other individuals without having to give out your email address if you choose not to.

Nora


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Helen
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 07:52 PM

I'm in the same boat as Frank in the Swamps - my first reaction is to take action against the flamers and others by gently reminding them about how good this site is, how wonderful the people and the cyber-atmosphere (cyber-ambience?) is here, and as Barbara said, about the difficulties of conveying tone through words alone, but now it seems that it is better if I stay laid back (pull my head in* (Oz language)) and try to ignore it. I have found that taking action only seems to wind the perpetrators up even more, but ignoring them seems to deny them the power to continue.

I have heard of the Zen belief that by fighting back you intensify the struggle, add power to the struggle, but if you move aside, bend like a supple tree in the wind, then you take the momentum out of the opposition and the opponent either realises the futility of fighting or finds someone or something else to get fired up about.

So far, in at least a decade of following this philosophy, I have found that it works very well, so I am now challenged to use it in cyberspace as well as in real life.

So Frank, let's support each other (as you have already done once with me: when either of us feels like joining the fray we can e-mail each other and prop up each other's resolve to stand well clear of it. I'm curently struggling not to jump in with both feet on a flame which popped up on an e-mail mailing list yesterday. I notice that no-one else has responded today so maybe I can examine the Zen theory in action (in in-action?) there.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 08:29 PM

In another thread, I responded to the firebombs, and I believe that it is a textbook for what you all have said. If you are interested in how not to deal this boorishness, just read the old thread on Irish Session tunes. I look at how I handled comments from a cyber-anarchist, and it is as Helen just said. I intensified the nastiness. It taught me a very big lesson. I have apologized enough on the matter, but it serves to bolster Helen's use of the Zen philosophy. I, too, think that we have something precious in our Mudcat, and we should protect it at all costs. There is currently a thread going based on the song "Back Home In Derry" that has the potential to be just one of those nasty ones due to the political and contentious nature of the subject of "the troubles" in the north of Ireland. Dick has even said he doesn't think we can handle it without nastiness. I am on one side of this issue, but I have pledged to myself that when I respond, it will be thoughtful and without rancor. Respectful of the positions taken.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 08:31 PM

P.S. When I refer to the boorishness of that previous thread, I must be fair and point out that I was as boorish as the person I was responding to. That is why I felt the need to apologize to all for my behaviour.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: alison
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 09:40 PM

hi,

Glad this thread was started. I was getting really annoyed with that Bob Dylan thread. Anytime someone tried to put a sensible /peaceful point across they got blasted. I decided to stay well out of it, but I did keep reading. I was glad when Joe put his "enough is enough" bit in. That was one I managed to stay out of..... other times I can't help myself.........

It must be very off putting for anyone new to encounter a thread like that. Most of us who have been here for a long time, know the benefits we have received from this site. I feel that I have made many lovely friends from all over the world. Sure we don't always agree (but then what friends, or even families, do agree all the time?), but usually we're respectful of each other's points of view.

Long may it continue

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Rodney Rawlings
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 09:52 PM

Hear hear.

I often have disagreements with contributors to these Internet forums, but merely put my views forth in an exact and rational manner, and leave it to the listener to make up his mind.

I think what starts these flame wars, though, is that some are touchy about what they consider the boundaries of acceptable views, and when they encounter ideas they perceive as outside those limits, they feel the necessity to demonize those who espouse them, so that the ideas will not be granted normal attention.

Of course, someone who is truly confident of his own worldview would welcome a clear and exact statement of its opposite, so that he can argue against it. But the name-callers are not into argument. They are into the vague grasp of the currently hip opinions, and the self-alignment with them. But they are only at ease if they can feel that significant others are on their side. To leave the unconventional ideas uninsulted would cause them great worry.

Hence the attempt to rally opinion with sneers and ridicule. They sweat when the support is not forthcoming.

Rodney Rawlings
Stop the Persecution of Bill Gates and Microsoft - Stop the Punishment of Success for Being Success


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Chet W.
Date: 26 Sep 98 - 11:54 PM

I am truly sorry that I ever got involved in the threads that offended.

Chet W.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: gargoyle
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 12:18 AM

Chet, nothing you posted was offensive. Your attitude is straight forward. Even MORE importantly, you were ON TOPIC and contributed information (though it may have been contrary to the popular view being expressed.)

Under "intellectual property" you directed readers to the Atlantic Monthly link where they could gain valid, adjudicated, TRUE details about the subject, a subject of vast proportions in our rapidly changing world. Your contribution was EASILY one of the most valuable in "clarifying the issue" and not "muddying the waters."

Thank you for being well read, and sharing your knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 04:57 AM

G'day,
What a timely and beautiful thread.

As Nora pointed out exact meanings and expressions can be lost here, and I felt that to be a contributing factor in the Dylan thread where people I respected seemed to be behaving unreasonably. And what about cultural differences? In Australia we expect to be "insulted" every day. "Old bastard", "cranky bastard" etc (but not "bastard") are forms of endearment. My son-in-law called his father a "lyin' bastard" yesterday. The old man's grin simply widened.

This thread is helping to clear the air, Mudcat feels better already.

cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Dave T
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 08:14 AM

This is interesting. I didn't get involved in the Dylan thread but was involved a little in the one on Intellectual Property. I agree with Helen and others about simply ignoring the flamers. We should realize that in any open forum there are going to be those who aren't interested in the subject matter, but are out to cause trouble (is this cyber-vandalism?). Unfortunately, it's the price we have to pay.
Chet made a comment on the COURAGE-II thread about debate being a lost, or at least dwindling, art thse days. I agree and this lack of skill no doubt adds to the problem; normally rational people begin to rely on personal attacks on those they disagree with. Let's remember, debates are to discuss the subject matter. If we keep our comments on topic and ignore the flamers, we'll all be better for it. I too, will try to keep this in mind.
Dave T


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Ian HP
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 08:32 AM

BSeed, thank you very much for starting this much-needed thread. It was I who, as you know, started the Dylan thread, simply looking for info to put the record on Dylan straight. I was genuinely shocked by the so-called "jokes" and straight-forward abuse that followed. It left a nasty taste in my mouth and I wish I had never started that thread, even though I couldn't have known what others would use it for - unfortunately. I did put a message on there to that effect, hoping it would stop, but there were still oodles of unfortunate contributions that followed. I do hope that now common courtesy will prevail. At one point I wondered what we were all coming to. I love Mudcat. Thank you again, BSeed. Regards, all.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: John M
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 11:15 AM

Sorry to you all, no more jokes from me. I'll help when I can. This is after all about music, and I have been assisted ofen by The Mudcat ! " God bless us every - no I can't go that far ! Take Care!


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Chet W.
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 11:58 AM

Thanks, gargoyle and others. I went back and read the entire threads on Dylan/AIDS, Intellectual Property, and the "COURAGE" series, and, as I told seed on the "Good News" thread, I just don't know who was offended by what. I wanted to apologize as others have done above, but I'm really not sorry for anything I said on any of these. Need time to think. Don't want to be a pariah but, for example, when I'm together in person with close friends, we might call each other worse than smartass and bastard, and everybody understands the good nature underlying, but here, in a sense, I'm writing to a monitor screen and I have to assume that people mean what they say when it really sounds like it.

Thanks again, Chet


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Sheye
Date: 27 Sep 98 - 03:10 PM

oooo, the cyclical ugliness made a loop while I wasn't looking. Can't say I'm sorry I missed it. I stayed away from the "Dylan" thread because, well, never having slept with the guy, it is of no personal interest to me whether or not he has aids. (I want points for the longest, least constructed sentence-of-the-week.) I was confused at the number posts though, thinking answer would be either yes or no.

A few points if I may share the floor:

That kind of garbage (teeny doses of poisoned attitude) actually does good. The way humans think and react swells and recedes with the tides. If you wake up every morning seeing the most beautiful roses ever, there is a very high probability that one morning you will stop seeing them. We are all looking back at ourselves and this forum and are seeing the value, love, and support our family shares here at the 'cat. So, that's a good thing.

A gentle reminder: the only person's behaviour you have control over is your own. My father (my mentor) offered me the following after I had been terribly hurt by a very cold person: "Remember that your words and actions should reflect the person you are, and not the person he is."

To the newcomers and lurkers, welcome to our GREAT family. We are the best, and are very pleased that you've joined us.

Sheye


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 08:54 PM

Sheye,
I am inclined to agree with you. Democracy requires dissent! Joe I'm sorry I teased you, though. It was a misguided attempt to flirt! harp


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 09:06 PM

Wait! Wait! Wait! How'd I miss the flirting, harpgirl?? You have my permission to continue - I'll try not to miss it next time....
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 09:06 PM

G'day,
Well I think all attempts to flirt, misguided or otherwise should be allowed. Encouraged even.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 09:07 PM

Told you he wasn't human. **grin**

Mick


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 09:32 PM

Hey, somebody better give me a link, so I can find out what I missed.....
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 10:45 PM

...our secret, huh Joe!! harp


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 98 - 11:05 PM

[Blush]


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: skw@
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 04:20 AM

It's really nice to see everybody back to their usual caring, bantering selves! - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: anne....
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 06:42 AM

AFTER ALL THE FUTURE IS NOT DRESSED IN RAGS

THE FUTURE IS A BEATIFUL EMBROIDERY

WITH DIVINE WIND IN THE THREADS


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Helen
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 09:10 AM

Help!!! There's someone on an e-mail mailing list whose last two postings over the last couple of days have been aggressive and rude. I'm hanging on to the edge of my chair trying to stop myself from posting a *gentle* reminder about keeping courtesy in threads and mailing lists but I know - see my Zen philosophy offering above - that I should just sit tight, shut up and wait until he/she gets tired of throwing flames (almost typed "flowing thrames" - it's a bit hard typing while simultaneously hanging onto one's chair :-) ) and then decides to find someone else to harrass.

Please, just keep reminding me of all the times that responding to deliberate discourtesy in cyberspace has resulted in making the flames grow higher and nastier. If I can just hang on for another couple of days the compulsion to take action will probably die down.

Oddly enough, a second mailing list I am on has also had a flamethrowing event in the last few days. Maybe it's something in the air, the position of the stars & planets, or something?

P.S. I just thought of a coffee mug motto - something to the effect of: "stress - the body's natural reaction to suppressing the urge to strangle the living **** out of someone who desperately deserves it"

Helen


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: alison
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 09:42 AM

Hi Helen,

I'll have one of your mugs too when you get that sorted out, thanks.

Hey Joe,

What about the rest of us girls eh? Do you think Max could work on your program so there's enough of you to go around?

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Philip Hudson
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 12:02 PM

I am not on the line a lot due to other commitments, but I have seen so much valuable information and innocent humor on this forum that a few "flamers", a new word to me, are not going to dampen (mixed metaphor?) my enthusiasm. No one has insulted my opinion and the jokes made about me have all been innocent and welcome. I have seen a little rancor among some. I just ignore it and say, maybe she or he is having a bad day. Have a good day. I'm off to teach English to non-English speakers. Don't you pity them? - Philip Hudson


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 03:40 PM

One list I was on observed that most misunderstandings, hurt feelings, arguments and flames happened during the dark of the moon.
Someone there also made a case for 11 of last year's 13 schoolchild-with-gun mass murders happening during the moon's dark. What do you think?
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 04:00 PM

You must be on the list that I am on.:) I was insulted, and so took up the challenge. Do it a few times, and they stop insulting you. You don't have to win, only to put up enough of a fight that they get weary thinking of quarreling with you in the future.

I am only Zen about things I can do nothing about. When I can do something, I figure that I should. If I can't, then I should endure my problem placidly. I suppose that isn't Zen, because Zen presupposes predestination and the futility of human action, IIRC.

But here at Mudcat, we have no need for such scorched earth policies, as we are all in good humour and full of tolerance and mutual respect.:)


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 04:14 PM

Barbara,
Even though I am a therapist I believe along the lines of Paul Shephard in Nature and Madness, that human beings thrived for thousands of years in small bands or groups and that it is only in the last few thousand years that we have been tied to agricultural and technological societies that we have lost our way." By isolating individuals from the nonhuman world and abandoning the harmony of wild ecosystems as a social model, agriculture 'made it difficult for the developing person to approach the issues around which the crucial passages into fully mature adult life had been structured'" (Kirkpatrick Sale on Paul Shephard.) He sees the distortion of human growth patterns and arrested adolescent development as a function of the distortions of technological culture, as do I.(He convinced me.) If we Mudcatters were a small band of people living with each other we would heal, help and share. Whether people will ever do this without being forced to do this when we use up all our resources or blow ourselves up is up to us.We can do it now as we have deomonstrated. In small bands people forced each other to reconcile. I'm not an anthropologist and someone probably can prove me wrong but it's an important dialectic argument to me. . Let's get back there in the twentyfirst century...for our children...harpgirl p.s. alison=I believe in sharing the men!!!


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 04:27 PM

Harpgirl, sounds like that saying that somewhat goes like "it takes a village to raise a child". Sure wished I knew where these villages existed, offline. Barry


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 05:23 PM

I grew up in such a village, and it was hell.:) Every adult had the right to correct your behaviour.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 05:51 PM

Tim, I did to, a very poor one, you're right there but everyone got on well together, the village as a whole not only watched the behavior of the kids but also those of the adults when it affected the children & everyone helped in the education of all, be it for street survival or for those in more worldly pursuits. I see in my town that parents don't take responsibility for the actions (but I told them not to do) of their kids, the town would just as soon bury the non tax paying tax swallowing curtain crawlers. We severed family ties because they only wanted to correct for their own benifit & not so much for the health & welfare of the child. These are what I miss when I say village. Barry


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Pete M
Date: 29 Sep 98 - 06:09 PM

Alison, If Max to multi-thread Joe should stoop,
he may recurse into a loop,
And if the algorithm doesn't hash,
The Mudcat servers sure to crash.

Muti-tasking is the way to go
There are other blokes out here you know
Flirting in a pleasant style,
Helps us all once in a while!

Sorry Joe, but we have don't want to cause a head crash do we?

Pete M ;-)


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: BSeed
Date: 30 Sep 98 - 01:42 AM

Phillip, I enjoyed your oxymoronic mixed metaphor, but I can top it: 30 years ago a student of mine, in a research paper suggesting that the immune system of the living creature Earth would reject the malignant microorganism man, closed with "When the fly in the ointment gets too big, the sleeping giant wakes." And that applies to flamers in the 'cat, too. --seed


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: alison
Date: 30 Sep 98 - 09:30 AM

Hi,

Last week we were all compaining about how unfriendly things were getting, has anyone else noticed how things have changed.

People are offering to get together, (after getting rid of their spouses), Harpgirl is flirting with Joe, I've just given Big Mick a hug in another thread.

Doesn't get much friendlier........ does it??

Loved the poem Pete.

Now in the immortal words of the Teletubbies, "Eh-oh, BIG HUG".

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Philip Hudson
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 08:11 PM

BSeed: How could you have had a student 30 years ago? That would make you --- well older than you sound! "When the fly in the ointment gets too big, the sleeping giant wakes." is a great mixed metaphor. I wrote a paper on the same subject about 40 years ago. I likened mankind to mushrooms in a fairy ring or yeast in grape juice. It is a natural thing for an organism to run out of resources or to pollute itself to extinction when in a closed system. It may have something to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics. When the yeast makes about 20% of its environment into alcohol, it dies. When the mushrooms use up their food, they move out in a circle. There is a limit to the circle. But there is an inexhaustable supply of good will among the Mudcats. We will never run out. - Philip Hudson


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Philip Hudson
Date: 07 Oct 98 - 08:26 PM

harpgirl: I can't say I understand all you said about the transition from a hunting to an agricultural society. But it sounds interesting. Might this have been the reason Cain killed Able (farmer versus herdsman)? As a counter example, my grandchildren are a small group of people living with each other. There is not much healing, helping or sharing there. It just might need another factor in the equation to produce a solution. - Philip Hudson.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: the Doppelganger
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 11:10 AM

It's the same old story!


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Night Owl
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 12:17 PM

"Doppelganger".....THANKS for refreshing the thread...sure helpful in maintaining perspective.


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 01:05 PM

Every three or four years, we get a new priest (usually a substitute) in my parish who feels a need to remind people how they should dress and behave in church. Then, a list of rules is recited from the pulpit or printed in the church bulletin. Within a day or two, Joe Offer shows up at the door of the priests' house and hands the offending priest a strongly-worded letter, protesting the manners reminder. Joe Offer's position on such reminders is this:
Telling adults how to behave is a bit insulting to people who do behave; and the people who don't behave, aren't going to behave, anyhow.
Same thing applies here, I think. Maybe it's best to just ignore bad manners and move along.

And although I do enjoy flirting with Harpgirl (and others), my heart will always pine away for Alison.
Sniff, sniff....
-Broken-hearted Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Thread attitude and courtesy
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 11:22 AM

Joe, that reminds me of something that happened on the borders of Kent and Sussex in the local Anglican parish. New priest moves in, mounts the pulpit, surveys the serried ranks of retired locals, and announces "I don't want a church that is full of old people." The next week, the adjoining parishes were astonished to find their congregations enlarged, and he didn't have a church full of many people at all.

Penny


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