Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion

Subject: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Cindy
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

I hope I've spelt that right. Apologies to Welsh speakers if I haven't. I want to see if I can develop some penillion style songs for classical guitar / voice. As I understand it, penillion singing is where the instrument plays a recognisable tune and the voice sings a sort of descant against it. Am I right? Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Welsh culture can help. Can anyone recommend a book / CD or anything else which might point me in the right direction? I read music and tablature and could probably adapt piano / harp music to guitar if necessary, but I can also pick things up by ear. I'm English but speak a little Welsh as I've lived in Wales a long time.

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: breezy
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 04:06 PM

penillion means 'verses'

the style is that of singing verses to a tune that has no bearing on the tune being sung 'cept its in tune, not even the timing!!

me mam used to do it.Uncle played the Ash Grove - llwyn on, on the pianno in the front room,   and off she went in a different direction , great it was, her being a prize winning contralto and all that, rattled windows she did, and doors, in fact the whole bloody house shook, but still the neighbours stayed and not once did they complain, she was good you see and a shade on the generous side so not one to argue with.made Dad proud, he was her singing coach.Could sing much himself, but I'm making up for it.

I hope we get some more helpful responses that this visit down memory valley.

Tarra

Its a great combination

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Feb 04 - 07:34 PM

Hmmm ! - At the risk of thread drift try this

Click 'Ere, Butty

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: sian, west wales
Date: 22 Feb 04 - 01:06 PM

Well, there are actually two kinds of singing that traditionally are called 'canu penillion': dull y Gogledd (Northern style) and dull y De (go on - guess! yep: Southern style). What breezy mentions is the Northern style and has become highly technical. I recently was talking to one of the penillion 'greats' who was lamenting that Musicians are making this art so terribly inaccessible to the common person. Perhaps we'll be looking at putting together a workshop to try to combat this ... I don't know how it might work in English because the accents of Welsh tunes are geared to the accents of words (just as in any culture, I guess) but there are probably ways ...

The Southern style is a matter of singing a winding repetoire of verses to a given tune - no counterpoint or anything as in the Northern; the idea is to find as many verses as possible to the meter. Also, it is quite often interlaced with an instrumental refrain: Deck the Halls is a good example of this. There's a very high proportion of the Welsh repetoire where you have 'twiddly bits' between lines of the verses.

Sain records brought out a CD by Arfon Gwilym last summer (titled, I think ... Procio'r Tan) and there are examples of both on it. I think it's a great album as Arfon is trying to bring the art back into the folk domain.

You might take a look at the thread I've just started about 18th c. fiddler tune book. There's some info in the book about a fiddler's perspective on accompanying song ...

If you want a real shock to the system, a duo called Bragod is trying to take the art back to medieval roots, or at least mindset, of 'declaring' poetry to the music of the crwth. Of course, that's where this 'singing verses' got it's start.

siân

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Mr Happy
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 05:02 AM

refresh on behalf of cindy.

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Cindy
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM

Many Thanks everyone. Sorry to have been a bit slow replying. We've just gone on broadband and are having a few problems so computer access has been confined to son who understands the beast. Thanks to all who were able to reply -I now have something to go on.

I dont suppose anyone remembers a telvision programme from many years ago, which described the dreadful conditions of the Welsh slate miners in comparison to the style of life at Penrhyn Castle. There was a beautiful penillion song which backed part of that.I dont suppose anyone remembers its name? Great idea by the way bringing it back into the folk domain.

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:45 AM

Re: the thread about music[s] enjoyed during the recent festivities, meself relished some Canu Penillion singing on Xmas Day after dinner with yours truly playing Llwyn On [The Ash Grove] on the organ & a Welsh fiend singing the counter melody ? part.

Sounded superb!!

Anyone suggestions for other suitable compositions which would lend themselves to this technique?

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 09 - 10:47 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penillion

Subject: RE: Help wanted. Welsh Canu Penillion
From: GUEST,sian, west wales - in absentia
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 11:11 AM

There are books and books and books on the subject, but mostly in Welsh. It's all about matching metres and scansions and stuff. Can be very technical. I have yet to work it out.

A lot of the old harp 'airs' are used regularly for the 'alaw' (tune) with the 'cyfalaw' (countertune) being devised by the singer according to the words being sung.

I suppose we should think about running a workshop on it for beginners and non-welsh-speakers...

sian