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Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Gutcher Date: 11 Feb 16 - 01:11 PM Hello Mrr Interesting to hear that one of our old words is still in use on your side of the pond. This will no doubt be a throwback to the Scots/ Irish who settled in the Southern States in the early years. These folk carrying words and songs from their country of origin with collectors still coming across versions of ballads which appear to be older than some of the versions collected here. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,Howard Jones Date: 11 Feb 16 - 08:18 AM The phenomon is fairly common if you happen to look - so few of us seem to look at the night sky these days or are even able to see it for light pollution from cities. I wonder about the association with bad weather. Weather folklore is usually based on observation rather than superstition. Bad weather in the British Isles usually comes from the west, and a New Moon is in the western sky. If there were a large amount of cloud cover to the west, bringing bad weather with it, this might increase the earth's reflectivity and the amount of earthlight reaching the surface of the moon. The 'old moon in the new moon's arms' would become more visible than usual. Just an idea. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,Mrr Date: 10 Feb 16 - 08:58 PM My kids' other parent used that expression and I always thought it was some Southern (US) thing! Cool, y'all! |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Gutcher Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:29 PM To speakers of Scots in the countryside it is called a BRUCH--with the U as in brother and the CH as in loch and is usually taken as a sign of stormy weather with snow to come. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Gallus Moll Date: 10 Feb 16 - 06:04 PM One of Nancy Nicolson's songs includes lines about the sailor's warning or the new moon with the auld moon in her arms. ~The title escapes me at the moment but I'll ask her to have a look at this thread and tell you more- - - |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,Rosemary Date: 09 Feb 16 - 09:09 PM In South Africa the belief is that if the new moon lies on its back I.e. both horns pointing upwards, the moon is holding the water and there will be no rain that month. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:18 AM Pavane, just vice versa. The old moon (C-shape) precedes the sun (best seen in the morning sky), the new moon (mirrored C-shape) follows the sun (best seen in the evening sky). Wolfgang |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: pavane Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:32 AM Actually, I don't think the moon is new yet, it is the waning of the old moon. Since this is visible in the evening, it is probably what Sir Patrick Spens saw anyway. ("Late Yestreen"). The new moon is visible in the early morning. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the From: Sandy Paton Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:52 PM I don't know whether this refers to earthshine or not, but I thought of Sir Patrick Spens when I read it. It's from "Backwoods America" by Charles Morrow Wilson, University of North Carolina Press, 1934. Describing superstitions he found among our mountain people, Wilson wrote: "A white circle about the moon tells of rain or snow, and the number of stars within that circle tells the number of days until the falling weather begins." I assume this refers to a simple "ring around the moon" that may be caused by atmospheric conditions, but I thought it might well be added to this discussion. Sandy |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the From: Janice in NJ Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:18 PM We saw the same from western New York State. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: KateG Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:34 PM Actually, driving home last night in Northwest New Jersey (USA) we had a lovely example of the new moon with the old one in her arms. Not only was the dark part of the moon illuminated by earthshine, but Venus was brilliant just off the lower tip of the moon. It couldn't have been more glorious. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: pavane Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:30 AM The effect was quite clear here last night. The whole of the moon was faintly visible even though it was a crescent moon. Does that mean there is a storm in the Atlantic, just waiting for us? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM The impossibility of a star in the tip was deliberate forshadowing of doom. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST Date: 23 Feb 04 - 05:34 PM Considering Coleridge's taste in poppy seed derivitives ..... |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM Well, maybe it didn't happen. It's a poem Coleridge made up. On the other hand it could be a mountain top catching the light while the lower surface around it was still in darkness. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:27 AM Refraction. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,John Hernandez Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM How could that possibly happen? It would mean that the star was between the moon and the earth! |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:16 AM The Coleridge quote (from the Ancient Mariner) which is like this, and was very likely inspired by the ballad, but is significantly different, is in this verse: We listened and looked sideways up ! Fear at my heart, as at a cup, My life-blood seemed to sip ! The stars were dim, and thick the night, The steerman's face by his lamp gleamed white ; From the sails the dew did drip-- Till clomb above the eastern bar The hornéd Moon, with one bright star Within the nether tip. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: masato sakurai Date: 22 Feb 04 - 02:44 AM (1) From New Scientist The Last Word Science Questions and Answers: The moonies(2) From Astronomy 2: Man and the Moon (1997) |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Suffet Date: 22 Feb 04 - 12:19 AM Greetings: The lyrics can be found either way, but the phenomenon is the same: earthsine causing the faint illumination of the otherwise unseen Moon. --- Steve |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:08 PM This is the quote: "I saw the new moon late yestreen With the old moon in her arm; I may be reading this wrong, but doesn't this line suggest that it is the other way around? Or would that be just poetic license? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: Suffet Date: 21 Feb 04 - 11:01 PM Greetings: Yes, it's called earthshine, but it needs some explanation. Sometimes enough sunlight is reflected from the Earth's surface to faintly illuminate the otherwise invisible New Moon. Put another way, light from the Sun strikes the Earth, is reflected to the Moon, and in turn is reflected back to our receptive eyes back here on Earth. In the case of Sir Patrick Spens (or Spencer), there was still a thin crescent of the Old Moon shining, probably because it was the night before the true New Moon. That crescent made up the "arms" which held the New Moon, visible because of earthshine. Such a phenomenon was once considered a sign of bad luck. --- Steve |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,TheOldMole Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:45 PM Yeah -- I've seen the new moon. I live pretty far out in the country. But is it an omen, or a real weather predictor? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:42 PM It's called Earthshine. Like Moonshine, if you were on the Moon, but a whole lot brighter, because the Earth is much bigger. A New Moon in our sky means a Full Earth in the Lunar sky. So when the conditions are right, it's possible to see the disc of the Moon faintly visible, lit up by the Earthshine. Not with the light pollution nwe have in most places these days, but they didn't have that in the time of Sir Patrick Spens. |
Subject: Folklore: Sir Patrick, the auld moon, and the new From: GUEST,TheOldMole Date: 21 Feb 04 - 08:31 PM What's the story on the auld moon with the new moon in her arms? Is it a phase of the moon, or some other odd weather condition? Is it something sailors normally watch out for? I can understand why you'd worry if last night the moon had a golden ring, and tonight there's no moon. But the auld moon with the new moon in her arms has always baffled me. |
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