BS: Americans want public executions

Subject: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:18 AM

I remember being taught in school that the difference between modern people and the savages of the medieval or Roman eras was that we didn't believe in revenge.

Welcome back, savages: according to an Associated Press report, two-thirds of Americans polled last month said they supported the idea of televising executions - and 21 per cent said they would pay to watch Osama bin Laden put to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Teresa
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM

Ugh! I feel sick to my stomach. Yet another reason not to watch TV!
Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:09 AM

Well, its the natural next step for "Reality TV"

Anyone remember the book (and film)"The running man"

If they cast Saddam in the lead role, what percentage would pay to view?

Civilasition is only skin deep, if that.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,juan kerr
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:15 AM

Can't remember who said it, but it goes like this; "Any society is only three meals from a revolution" There was also a good one about "an eye for eye." Anybody remember that one?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:20 AM

An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind - or something equivalent; I may have the phrasing wrong.

But is there no public debate in the US about the state of the prisons, the morality of execution, etc? Are there no states that take a proactive action on crime prevention, rather than assuming that punishment works?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:07 AM

Illinois, I think it was, did stop all executions because its governor was persuaded by evidence suggesting that a significant proportion of those executed were in fact innocent. Can't check out the details right now, but maybe someone on that side of the water could confirm/clarify.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:12 AM

Not all Americans even watch tv, and I very much question the 2/3ds statistic. Yes, there is a groundswell of dissent, but the mass media is highly conservative and will under-report anything that doesn't support the Shrub's agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peg
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:23 AM

sounds like a ridiculous statistic. I would love to see the details of this poll...as far as I know, not even 2/3 of "Americans" are   in favor of the death penalty, let alone public executions.

Thanks anyonymous, cowardly GUEST for some mean-spirited Yank-bashing disguised as social commentary...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:24 AM

Well, another in the tradition of the Anglo-Irish modest proposal...
I see a reality game show, where a member of the audience is chosen at random to pay for the sins of society... the way this sick little nation is going, can this not be just around the corner?
Cheers
Larry
PS anyone want to buy a used TV?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:31 AM

Well, this American does not and I am certain that 95% of my circle of friends do not, and find the idea repulsive, boorish, and beastly. So personally, I consider the title ofthis thread inaccurate and insulting, ssurvey or no survey.

I would like to see the actual data this report is based on.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobjack
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:35 AM

The government in England always resists pressure for a referendum on the death penalty here, because THEY KNOW we would vote for it's return.What's the alternative? All we seem to do is lock them up for a few years in the Hotels that pass for prisons, then release them, usually to offend again!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Clifton53
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:38 AM

Like public executions are something new the world over??

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:38 AM

I'm with you, Amos. I don't believe this statistic. Too often statistics reflect the wording of the question and are predetermined to support a personl view.

Question: Would you rather see televised exectuions or be poked in the eye with this stick?

If anything, I see some small movement toward making the death penalty less common. Maybe I'll do my own survey.

Question: Would you rather see the death penalty eliminated or be poked in the eye with this stick?

Or, slightly more seriously, a question could be asked in the context of a statement that if we had televised executions, we could eliminate most of the murders that are committed in this country. If you have your hands chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread, it would reduce the likelihood that you'd steal one, but no one in American would approve of such a law.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,fisht
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:50 AM

Brilliant Larry - we could combine it with one of those lovely cookery series & bring back sin eating!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 09:08 AM

That's what I mean about polls. Word the question correctly and Hitler would have a favorable rating. Like others have pointed out, it is very doubtful that 2/3's of the American people even favor the death penalty. Last I heard it was the other way around and with all the stink about Texas and Illinios possibly executing innocent men I'm sure the number favoring the death pnealy is in steady decline.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 09:12 AM

I'd be interested in a link to that poll. A Yahoo search only comes up with the one done in 2001 that said only 25% of Americans had any interest in watching a televised execution.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 09:20 AM

There are Liars, Damned Liars, and Statisticians.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:56 AM

Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery"?

Was the question "Would you prefer to eat liquid poop from a sick cat or watch public executions on TV?" OK, even reasonable peopl have to think on this one. (You know, things like "How sick was the cat; do you like the cat; is it a pedigree cat", stuff like that.

Tell you the truth, I don't think it would be possible to get 2/3 of the people in the US to agree on anything. I know we can't in Canada, and we're lots alike. I would want to see the phrasing before I opined more. (I like that 'opine'. See? I ain't just another pretty face!)

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:58 AM

Well Guest, you almost quoted Disraeli there.
Bobjack, if you really think British prisons are hotels, I think you are over estimating the humanitarian aspects of our criminal justice system. The thought of spending a day in one gives me the creeps. I'd rather sleep under a tree.
When it comes down to it, most people are more willing to "talk tough" about crime than they are to visit vicious retribution on the perpetrators. One of my hopes for mankind lies in the fact that many folks are more willing to exercise mercy than they are to talk about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:20 AM

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004022318140001717234&dt=20040223181400&w=APO&coview=

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004022315450001712856&dt=20040223154500&w=APO&coview=

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:21 AM

According to this article on Yahoo, a telephone poll was taken of 1000 people. All the article reports is that 21 per cent would pay to see Osama Bin Laden executed and 37 per cent said that executions should not be televised. From this limited information it cannot be concluded that two thirds think executions should be on television. If someone can find the questions asked and the responses, it would be interesting. However, at this point, the conclusions in the initial post cannot be substantiated.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:35 AM

I would pay see to those who start threads like this interviewed by Tim Russert, Ted Koppel and Charlie Rose....simultaneously.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:50 AM

"A national telephone poll of more than 1,000 people aged 18 or older, done for TRIO cable network by Harris Interactive, asked respondents who they would most likely pay to watch executed if executions were shown on pay-per-view television"

The true deduction, therefore is that fully a third of the people interviewed objected to the premises of the question being asked, while 2/3 tried to answer the question as posed by Harris. It is absolutely misleading to imply that 2/3 thought the premise should be realized, however.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:51 AM

I just reread the article that I linked to. It says that 1,000 people aged 18 or over were asked who they would most likely pay to see executed if executions were on pay-per-view television. So the question assumed that executions would be televised, it did not ask if they should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

The articles linked to above did absolutely nothing to clarify the issue.

"Would you watch Osama Bin Laden's execution if it were televised?" and "Should executions be televised?" are entirely different types of questions. Data about second cannot be extrapolated from answers to the first.

Most people would probably answer "Yes" to, "If someone were raping your daughter and you had a gun, would you shoot them?" But ask, "Would you buy a gun just in case someone might decide to rape your daughter?" and you'll get entirely different results.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

"Did you watch the Two Towers fall on September 11th?" is not quite the same question as "Was it right to hijack those planes and fly them into the towers?"

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM

What country do you hail from,JTT and do they have state sponsored executions there?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:51 PM

Thanks anyonymous... GUEST (Peg)

Anonymous?
JTT has posted close to 1000 posts since 1999 consistently using the same three letters, sometimes as member, sometimes as GUEST, and has more than once mentioned the full name.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Legal Eagle
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Assuming, of course, Bin Laden would be tried and convicted of a capital offense...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang. I did wonder who the "Guest" was that several posters have referred to. A double-check on the list at the top shows that every Guest poster has, in fact, used an identifiable handle.

It's known that I don't like Anonymous Guests, but no-one on this thread can be accused of this (unless a Clone has done some unadvertised editing, which I doubt).

Peg - you owe someone an apology!

On thread, although I personally favour the death penalty, I side very firmly with the "Lies, damned lies, & statistics" camp!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM

McGrath observation makes me reflect that here in downtown New York, were we DID see the trade center fall, the majority would not want to see or HAVE Ben Laden, or anyone else exicuted, Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM

TRIO cable network?? Not one of the biggies and, based on an unscientific survey of the material on their schedule, not one that would seem to appeal to a varied audience ('Ernie Kovacs Show' and 'Queen For A Day').

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:50 PM

Some Americans might watch executions on television, but that hardly qualifies as "Americans" (implication, "ALL Americans"). Some Americans watch "reality" shows and pro wrestling. Some Americans would probably watch a hemorrhoid operation if it were offered on television.

Such surveys are ". . . sound and fury, signifying nothing. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

I'm with Don. He has said it better than I could.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Strick
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 09:24 PM

"Some Americans would probably watch a hemorrhoid operation if it were offered on television."

What do you mean IF? The Discovery Channel use to have a whole show devoted to different surgical procedures. Surely they ran one of these.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:12 AM

Public executions?
I'd rather have orthopedic surgery!

I don't want to see Osama become a martyr. I'd much rather see him become an object of public ridicule. Lock him up in a small apartment with all 4 of his wives. Then tell us what he thinks of being on call 24/7 to change light bulbs, and fix toasters. And how he likes sharing a bathroom with 47 pairs of dripping pantyhose. Oh! and let him out once a month to buy sanitary supplies for his wives. That should be good for a real laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peg
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:18 AM

Peg - you owe someone an apology!

huh? for what?
okay, so JTT is not a fully anonymous guest...JTT still posted an inflammatory and offensive statement designed to annoy people and it is in no way based in fact.
I'd say JTT owes everyone here an apology...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:40 AM

I'm from Ireland. We don't execute people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:28 AM

To your credit, you did indeed stop this horrible practice (officially) long before the British. Unfortunately, a privately administered version of it continued (unofficially) - from the inhabitants of both countries - for a bit longer than either of us can be proud of!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:22 AM

Well, back to one of my per peeves: polls.

Not to be drifting too much here but just to show what I mean about polling is an article in todays newspaper on "Consumer Confidence". According to the article the Consumer Confidence "Index" has dropped "more than nine points to 87.3 following a rise in January to a revised reading of 96.4."

Well, if you don't take the time to delve deep into the article you might come away with an impression that 87.3% of people are confident in the economy. But upon further reading that 87.3 consumer confidence *index* figure represents only a mere 19.3% of the people who were condident in the econmomy??? Hmmmmm???......

Enough said about pols fir now...

Larry,

I'm with you. Here the United Staes wants to be thought of as this moral country. Meanwhile, its people are becoming more and more violent by the day. If it ain't folks in other countries that they are killing and maiming its their neighbors... Abnd a lot of the killing and maiming is being conducted by folks who think of themselves as Christains??? Hmmmmm???...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:27 AM

I am not a Christian, so maybe I should stay out of this one... However, I can't resist mentioning that in the Bible I read, Jesus was remarkably unenthusiastic about the one execution he was invited to approve of.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM

One further thing should be mentioned here. Although I personally think that executions are repugnant, there have already been a few law suits claiming that a "life sentence" is the same as "death by imprisonment" and therefore cruel and unusual punishment in this country. Unless and until someone can guarantee that the convicted murderer will, upon release from jail, be no threat at all to the community at large (and then the methods would probably be ruled unconstitutional)I'd rather have them imprisoned for life. This is the other side of the argument for the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:17 AM

My own personal feeling would be that if someone is a helpless psychopath, who is driven to kill, and is (under any system currently available) incurable, then it is necessary to imprison him, or her, for life. But I'd make the prison as comfortable, happy and stimulating as possible.

If someone kills in anger, then I'd hope that education in avoiding violence, combined with the necessity to pay reparation, would be an appropriate action. It might be that a time away from society could be a necessary part of this - but not for revenge, only to give the person a chance to move away from the violent way of living.

These are my personal opinions.

But really, what I was shocked at was the vengefulness shown in the poll. I'm reassured by those who say it's not typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:36 AM

Bobert,

I share your mistrust into polls (though I do not think something like 'personal experience' is less error-prone), but an index never means raw percentages, though percentages could enter into its making-up.

If you read that the temperature has increased in the last week from 75 to 87 you wouldn't need to read the fine print to know they do not speak of percentages, would you?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

JTT: Would you mind making my life as comfortable, happy and stimulating as possible?

I'm against the death penalty, and I don't think prison should be a lifetime of controlled punishment, but I'm not in favor of making prison happier, more comfortable and more stimulating than life is for us folks on the other side of the bars..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

Jerry - Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM

The whole concept of "happy" is rather fuzzy, for starters. Happiness is very elusive, and there is no way to "make" somebody "happy." I don't see a reason for making people better off in prison than they are outside. Prison is not supposed to be a reward..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:36 PM

Ethics lesson:—

When a person performs a criminal act, that person is, in essence, declaring that he or she is breaking a covenant with the law-abiding members of the tribe. The point is to isolate the offender from law-abiding citizens so the offender cannot repeat the crime. At one time, ostracism or exile was the appropriate method of isolation. The offender is no longer part of the tribe. In modern times, prison takes the place of exile. If the offender repents, mends his or her ways, and demonstrates convincingly that he or she now accepts the covenant, they may be allowed to return to the tribe, but, of course, on probation. Certain crimes may be regarded as so severe or of such nature that it is best not to allow the offender's return. The point is the protection the rest of the members of the tribe from those who would perform criminal acts. The deterrent aspect comes from the awareness of the members of the tribe that if they commit criminal acts, they will cast out of the tribe (literally become "outcasts").

If a person is isolated and it is then found that he or she is not guilty of the criminal act of which they are accused, they can be returned to the tribe (with, one would hope, compensatory reparations).

If, however, the tribe's focus is on punishment or vengeance rather than the protection of the tribe and the person accused is executed instead of exiled, and if it is later found that that person is innocent, no such restoration and reparations are possible. The tribe has not only committed an injustice, it has murdered one of its own. Assuming that the tribe has agreed to allow those who administer justice in its behalf to take such drastic and irreversible actions, the entire tribe is guilty.

Prison sentence=exile or isolation of the offender for the protection of the tribe. If an error is found, it is reversible.
Execution=vengeance. If an error is found, it is not reversible.

Basic issue:—Is your interest the protection and welfare of society? Or do you want vengeance? They are two separate things.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:39 PM

Prison involves the loss of liberty. That's a pretty severe thing to happen , however humane the conditions.

And if what we are shown about prisons is accurate, humane is not on fact the word, a lot of the time.

That seems to be especially the case, among wealthy countries, of prisons in the USA. I was reading an article about Guantanamo Bay, and the author said that many features of this which seem grotesque and horrific are in fact fairly standard in high security jails in the States.

I hope that is not in fact true.