BS: Americans want public executions

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: harpmaker
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:11 PM

The film 'Apocalypse now' was shown on uk tv last night, ch4.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:06 PM

Chongo is basically correct as regards Toronto. The per capita murder rate has been declining (on average) for some time. There are some fluctuations back and forth, but there's generally been a reduction in violent crimes over the last 15 years. This is not the impression one usually gets from the press, which is in the business of selling copy.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:25 AM

Homicide rates in Canada.
Canada 1998=558 1999=538 2000=546 2001=553 2002=582

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:10 AM

Naw...the reason so many more people support capital punishment now is cos there's more fear out there now than in '65. And there's more fear because of the messages people get constantly from the news and entertainment media. The media gives 'em all these hyped-up stories which drive the level of fear up. In Toronto, for example, the crime rate has been going DOWN for the last 20 years. It keeps getting lower. That's a documented statistical fact. But the public perception is that it's going UP all the time! That's because of sensational media coverage. A frightened public, like a frightened animal, gets nasty...and supports capital punishment in a sort of automatic kneejerk response, just as a symptom of their paranoia.

It's got nothing to do with statistical evidence, nothing to do with deterrence of crime, nothing to do with justice...it's a symptom of fear, period.

The more fearful people are, the more you will hear them call out for more capital punishment, more jails, more severe sentencing, and less mercy.

The media encourages a fearful public, because it increases sales of product. You can see that in the world of fashion too...as regards fear of: obesity, hairiness, bad breath, etc. It's endless. Dictators also encourage a fearful public, because that public will support a dictator when he launches extreme, violent actions against whoever it is that they're afraid of...and he makes sure to school them in who that is first!

What you got here is a chronically terrorized populace. I have to admit it's good for business if you're a private eye...

Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:35 AM

Perhaps the reason for the number of people committing second (or first!) capital crimes is that violence is becoming acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:36 PM

I believe the reason that people here are supporting the death penalty is the startling number of persons who have been released from prison who have gone back and commited murder again. Because no one wants a prison in their back yard, and because the rich need their money so much more than the public in general there is extreme overcrowding in prison. Unfortunately this has resulted in the revolving door syndrome. Get rid of some inmates to lessen the pressure and give space to put in more convicts. Also because of an insistance of imprisoning people for things like DUI and minor drug offense when the one can be controlled through technology and the other is arguably not a criminal problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:08 AM

Check thisHarris Poll on Capital Punishment   for substantiation that 2/3 of Americans favor Capital Punishment. Strangely, in 1965, only 38% supported the death penalty-- as of Dec 2003, it is 69%, though in 1997, for some reason, 75% supported it, and 53% felt we needed even more--
Only 36% feel we need more capital punishment today--

Two things are curious and disturbing--53% feel that the death penalty is not much of a deterent--and 95% believe that innocent people are convicted of murder. White respondents believed that 11% of those convicted of murder were innocent, black respondents felt that 23% were innocent.

So we overwhelmingly support the death penalty, even though we don't believe deters murder, and we know that a substantial number of innocent people are convicted--

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:50 PM

Sentencing someone to live with the knowledge of what they have done is a more serious punishment than ritual killing.

What I can never unbderstand is the way you get the saqme people insisting that some crimes are so terrible that only killing the perpetrator can be adequate. And then they turn around and suggesting that imprisonment is worse than execution anyway, so state killing is the more merciful option.

I'm glad we're finished with all that kind of double-think in Europe, and have seen the last of this kind of killing in our corner of the world. Mainly because I think it eats away at a society, like some kind of poison. And like a number of poisons, it can be addictive for some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:47 PM

Sorry. There should be a "have" after the second use of Hussein. I'd also take the "c" outta personal. I'll try the preview button sometime this year. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:45 PM

Death of and by itself is not sadism. It awaits all of us. My problem with the state deciding to take life is that sometimes we make mistakes. That is why I don't support capital punishment, and if there is ever a vote on the issue directly, your vote and mine will make two. I would take no percsonal pleasure in killing a Hitler or Hussein, no more than I would take pleasure in thinning a herd or shooting a rabid dog. The benefit that people have is the choices they make. However, I don't want to get into the rights people like Hitler or Hussein. They chose to be killers. By committing murder, they have demonstrated clearly that they agree with capital punishment. Who am I to argue?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:24 PM

Well, brucie, there is no rule that perfectly fits all situations, is there? But does one have to kill an Adolf Hitler or a Saddam Hussein to stop them from doing harm? Nope. One simply has to deprive them of the power to do harm. Saddam is at the moment deprived of such power, and I see no need to kill him. What good would it do? If it satisfies various people's thirst for vengeance, is that necessarily a good thing? I don't think so, but those people will not see it my way.

The Allied powers would very much have liked to take Hitler alive, in order to try him in a spectacular fashion before the whole World, and then execute him, as they did some of his underlings and some Japanese officers. It seems odd to me that people want to take someone alive, only so that they can later kill him ceremonially after going through all kinds of legal machinations first, but I think it has something to do with the sadistic urge in people. They want to glory in the examination, humiliation, and slow destruction of their chosen antichrist, prior to actually destroying him. This is not admirable. It's sadistic.

Does the sadism of the wrongdoer justify further sadism by his captors?

The Allies were discomfited by the fact that Hermann Goering committed suicide with a hidden poison pill that he bit down on just minutes before his scheduled execution by hanging! This is really ironical. The man ended up dead in any case, but they didn't like it that he did it on his own schedule instead of theirs!

What it was really about was POWER. Who had the power there, was the question. If Hermann Goering still had the power to take his own life, then he felt that he was in charge of the decision, and his captors felt left out of the loop of decision-making.

And that is all rather silly, isn't it? Sounds like a big battle of fragile egos to me.

I tend more toward a Japanese viewpoint, as follows: If a captured enemy would prefer to honorably take his own life, then why not let him?

But that requires having some belief that the captured enemy (or anyone) is deserving of such honor...something that is a given, as far as I'm concerned, regardless of how much I disagree with what that enemy may have done.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM

Adolph Hitler
Adolf Eichmann
Saddam Hussein

Three arguments for capital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM

Donald Marshall
Willie Nepoose
David Milgard

Three arguments againstcapital punishment.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:00 PM

Aye, Bobert it was the same in Britain, years later the innocent were given a pardon, too bad they wern`t around to celebrate.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

It's all a matter of opinion, Bobert. In Germany in 1939 being "saved" probably meant that you had read Mein Kampf from one end to the other and had a Nazi Party membership card. It certainly was the ticket to rapid promotion in the halls of power, anyway.

The closer a system veers toward dictatorship the more enamoured it becomes of capital punishment, because "dead men tell no tales".

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:31 PM

Interesting, ard. The Supreme Court just overturned a death sentence of a Texan becuase his attorneys did not represent the fella to well. Seems we've been hearing this for years about folks who have been executed in Texas. Some of these folks who are no longer with us were represented by suc incompetent attorneys that the attorneys fell asleep in court. But, yer right. Bush never met a convicted man worth a pardon. Innocent or guilty! This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder just how saved this born again feller is?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:40 PM

Reading through all of the postings on this Thread there was no mention of George Bush, now there was a man who had no qualms about giving the thumbs down to all of those unfortunates in Texas, wether they were guilty or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, there are a lot of not very sophisticated thinkers out there...I guess it is a good thing that, like Wolfgang said (re Switzerland), the general public is not in a position to approve or disapprove all legislation. It would become a dictatorship of the most benighted and ignorant minds in fairly short order, I suppose, rather like the excesses that followed in the wake of the French Revolution.

A mob does not tend to make intelligent decisions over passionate issues.

Also, if 2/3 of Americans want televised executions that tells me that there are a lot of bored voyeurs out there with far too little meaning in their lives.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: andi
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:22 PM

This American has seen far too much death to want to watch the tragedy of a taking of another life, no matter what the reason. I know of no one who would want to watch this.
The thought sickens me and I pray we never come to this.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:13 PM

I taught for a year in a maximum security institution. They ain't summer camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM

I agree with JTT. If as he says we are to accept that some helpless psychopaths are driven to kill, and are incurable, then surely they are acting in a way that they have no contol over, due to mental illness.

It is definitely advisable that they be removed from an open society, and their actions be supervised and monitored, so that they can not harm again. But I do not see why their living conditions should be significantly less comfortable than the not mentally ill.
Should we really be punishing the sick?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:39 PM

Prison involves the loss of liberty. That's a pretty severe thing to happen , however humane the conditions.

And if what we are shown about prisons is accurate, humane is not on fact the word, a lot of the time.

That seems to be especially the case, among wealthy countries, of prisons in the USA. I was reading an article about Guantanamo Bay, and the author said that many features of this which seem grotesque and horrific are in fact fairly standard in high security jails in the States.

I hope that is not in fact true.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:36 PM

Ethics lesson:—

When a person performs a criminal act, that person is, in essence, declaring that he or she is breaking a covenant with the law-abiding members of the tribe. The point is to isolate the offender from law-abiding citizens so the offender cannot repeat the crime. At one time, ostracism or exile was the appropriate method of isolation. The offender is no longer part of the tribe. In modern times, prison takes the place of exile. If the offender repents, mends his or her ways, and demonstrates convincingly that he or she now accepts the covenant, they may be allowed to return to the tribe, but, of course, on probation. Certain crimes may be regarded as so severe or of such nature that it is best not to allow the offender's return. The point is the protection the rest of the members of the tribe from those who would perform criminal acts. The deterrent aspect comes from the awareness of the members of the tribe that if they commit criminal acts, they will cast out of the tribe (literally become "outcasts").

If a person is isolated and it is then found that he or she is not guilty of the criminal act of which they are accused, they can be returned to the tribe (with, one would hope, compensatory reparations).

If, however, the tribe's focus is on punishment or vengeance rather than the protection of the tribe and the person accused is executed instead of exiled, and if it is later found that that person is innocent, no such restoration and reparations are possible. The tribe has not only committed an injustice, it has murdered one of its own. Assuming that the tribe has agreed to allow those who administer justice in its behalf to take such drastic and irreversible actions, the entire tribe is guilty.

Prison sentence=exile or isolation of the offender for the protection of the tribe. If an error is found, it is reversible.
Execution=vengeance. If an error is found, it is not reversible.

Basic issue:—Is your interest the protection and welfare of society? Or do you want vengeance? They are two separate things.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM

The whole concept of "happy" is rather fuzzy, for starters. Happiness is very elusive, and there is no way to "make" somebody "happy." I don't see a reason for making people better off in prison than they are outside. Prison is not supposed to be a reward..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:56 PM

Jerry - Why?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM

JTT: Would you mind making my life as comfortable, happy and stimulating as possible?

I'm against the death penalty, and I don't think prison should be a lifetime of controlled punishment, but I'm not in favor of making prison happier, more comfortable and more stimulating than life is for us folks on the other side of the bars..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:36 AM

Bobert,

I share your mistrust into polls (though I do not think something like 'personal experience' is less error-prone), but an index never means raw percentages, though percentages could enter into its making-up.

If you read that the temperature has increased in the last week from 75 to 87 you wouldn't need to read the fine print to know they do not speak of percentages, would you?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:17 AM

My own personal feeling would be that if someone is a helpless psychopath, who is driven to kill, and is (under any system currently available) incurable, then it is necessary to imprison him, or her, for life. But I'd make the prison as comfortable, happy and stimulating as possible.

If someone kills in anger, then I'd hope that education in avoiding violence, combined with the necessity to pay reparation, would be an appropriate action. It might be that a time away from society could be a necessary part of this - but not for revenge, only to give the person a chance to move away from the violent way of living.

These are my personal opinions.

But really, what I was shocked at was the vengefulness shown in the poll. I'm reassured by those who say it's not typical.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM

One further thing should be mentioned here. Although I personally think that executions are repugnant, there have already been a few law suits claiming that a "life sentence" is the same as "death by imprisonment" and therefore cruel and unusual punishment in this country. Unless and until someone can guarantee that the convicted murderer will, upon release from jail, be no threat at all to the community at large (and then the methods would probably be ruled unconstitutional)I'd rather have them imprisoned for life. This is the other side of the argument for the death penalty.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:27 AM

I am not a Christian, so maybe I should stay out of this one... However, I can't resist mentioning that in the Bible I read, Jesus was remarkably unenthusiastic about the one execution he was invited to approve of.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:22 AM

Well, back to one of my per peeves: polls.

Not to be drifting too much here but just to show what I mean about polling is an article in todays newspaper on "Consumer Confidence". According to the article the Consumer Confidence "Index" has dropped "more than nine points to 87.3 following a rise in January to a revised reading of 96.4."

Well, if you don't take the time to delve deep into the article you might come away with an impression that 87.3% of people are confident in the economy. But upon further reading that 87.3 consumer confidence *index* figure represents only a mere 19.3% of the people who were condident in the econmomy??? Hmmmmm???......

Enough said about pols fir now...

Larry,

I'm with you. Here the United Staes wants to be thought of as this moral country. Meanwhile, its people are becoming more and more violent by the day. If it ain't folks in other countries that they are killing and maiming its their neighbors... Abnd a lot of the killing and maiming is being conducted by folks who think of themselves as Christains??? Hmmmmm???...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:28 AM

To your credit, you did indeed stop this horrible practice (officially) long before the British. Unfortunately, a privately administered version of it continued (unofficially) - from the inhabitants of both countries - for a bit longer than either of us can be proud of!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:40 AM

I'm from Ireland. We don't execute people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peg
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:18 AM

Peg - you owe someone an apology!

huh? for what?
okay, so JTT is not a fully anonymous guest...JTT still posted an inflammatory and offensive statement designed to annoy people and it is in no way based in fact.
I'd say JTT owes everyone here an apology...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:12 AM

Public executions?
I'd rather have orthopedic surgery!

I don't want to see Osama become a martyr. I'd much rather see him become an object of public ridicule. Lock him up in a small apartment with all 4 of his wives. Then tell us what he thinks of being on call 24/7 to change light bulbs, and fix toasters. And how he likes sharing a bathroom with 47 pairs of dripping pantyhose. Oh! and let him out once a month to buy sanitary supplies for his wives. That should be good for a real laugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Strick
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 09:24 PM

"Some Americans would probably watch a hemorrhoid operation if it were offered on television."

What do you mean IF? The Discovery Channel use to have a whole show devoted to different surgical procedures. Surely they ran one of these.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 07:26 PM

I'm with Don. He has said it better than I could.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:50 PM

Some Americans might watch executions on television, but that hardly qualifies as "Americans" (implication, "ALL Americans"). Some Americans watch "reality" shows and pro wrestling. Some Americans would probably watch a hemorrhoid operation if it were offered on television.

Such surveys are ". . . sound and fury, signifying nothing. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM

TRIO cable network?? Not one of the biggies and, based on an unscientific survey of the material on their schedule, not one that would seem to appeal to a varied audience ('Ernie Kovacs Show' and 'Queen For A Day').

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM

McGrath observation makes me reflect that here in downtown New York, were we DID see the trade center fall, the majority would not want to see or HAVE Ben Laden, or anyone else exicuted, Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 05:00 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang. I did wonder who the "Guest" was that several posters have referred to. A double-check on the list at the top shows that every Guest poster has, in fact, used an identifiable handle.

It's known that I don't like Anonymous Guests, but no-one on this thread can be accused of this (unless a Clone has done some unadvertised editing, which I doubt).

Peg - you owe someone an apology!

On thread, although I personally favour the death penalty, I side very firmly with the "Lies, damned lies, & statistics" camp!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Legal Eagle
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM

Assuming, of course, Bin Laden would be tried and convicted of a capital offense...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:51 PM

Thanks anyonymous... GUEST (Peg)

Anonymous?
JTT has posted close to 1000 posts since 1999 consistently using the same three letters, sometimes as member, sometimes as GUEST, and has more than once mentioned the full name.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: GUEST,Jaze
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM

What country do you hail from,JTT and do they have state sponsored executions there?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:24 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM

"Did you watch the Two Towers fall on September 11th?" is not quite the same question as "Was it right to hijack those planes and fly them into the towers?"

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 12:23 PM

The articles linked to above did absolutely nothing to clarify the issue.

"Would you watch Osama Bin Laden's execution if it were televised?" and "Should executions be televised?" are entirely different types of questions. Data about second cannot be extrapolated from answers to the first.

Most people would probably answer "Yes" to, "If someone were raping your daughter and you had a gun, would you shoot them?" But ask, "Would you buy a gun just in case someone might decide to rape your daughter?" and you'll get entirely different results.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:51 AM

I just reread the article that I linked to. It says that 1,000 people aged 18 or over were asked who they would most likely pay to see executed if executions were on pay-per-view television. So the question assumed that executions would be televised, it did not ask if they should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans want public executions
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 11:50 AM

"A national telephone poll of more than 1,000 people aged 18 or older, done for TRIO cable network by Harris Interactive, asked respondents who they would most likely pay to watch executed if executions were shown on pay-per-view television"

The true deduction, therefore is that fully a third of the people interviewed objected to the premises of the question being asked, while 2/3 tried to answer the question as posed by Harris. It is absolutely misleading to imply that 2/3 thought the premise should be realized, however.

A