BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:31 PM

Well, many urban legends are around because people want to hear them. I think that if something like that happened to someone in my family, I might want to take the perpetrator for a walk. I know it is not nice to think that way, but rape isn't nice, either. It's an interesting phenomena (urban legends), and many of them seem to satisify a cry for 'real' justice from people. I'm reminded of the rapist who was caught and taken to a carpentry workshop. His testes were put into a vise, and the vice was closed sufficiently so he could not escape. The fellow who had put the guy there then picked up a hacksaw. The rapist's eyes went wide and he screamed, "You're gonna cut my b@lls off!" to which the fellow said, "No, I'm cutting the handle off the vise, giving you a razor knife, and then I'm lighting the workshop on fire. You will be cutting your own b@lls off."

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:36 PM

As worrying as anything is the number of seemingly normal people who would get some satisfaction from that kind of sick fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

Yeah, ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:16 AM

I worked with a bunch of crims once. the difference is, ordinary people might think about it. crims do it. and are proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

As sick fantasies go, brucie, that's a pretty complicated one (plus you have to burn down your workshop too). As I'd advise all the supervillians in the James Bond flicks, "Just shoot him." And use the workshop to build a coffin.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

Bottom line, too many people, and attitude. Of course if someone is over the edge angry, and there is a gun handy, there is a chance they will use it. But, it's not the gun that is to blame, it is the mind set of the shooter. So, how do we change the mind set of people who are apt to shoot someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

Address the reasons they feel obliged to do it.

It would be a start, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

We don't give them guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

Almost everybody sooner or later gets in some kind of a quarrel where they feel like saying "I could kill you" - and often enough, at that moment, they mean it. Having a gun handy makes it too easy for that moment to become permanent.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:41 AM

Well, I've never felt like killing anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:02 AM

Cluin, you haven't been out much have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 AM

in australia ordinary people don't have guns. there is no reasons why they need to.

to allow guns for all is to create a violent society.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM

Guest, you are wrong. So are you, freda.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Arnie
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:07 PM

I read today that one of Manchester's thugs was jailed for life today - he lead the Longsight gang named after the area the crawled around in. He's been confined to a wheelchair ever since an accident in his youth, but that didn't stop him building up his 'business' empire. His mob used Uzi sub-machine pistols and didn't seem to have any problem in getting hold of them. I suppose his successor is already taking over the action......

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM

Well, I see two sides to the 'gun' issue. In my mind, the proper dispensers of justice are the courts, not individuals in society. Problem with that is when people are threatened 'right now', the courts are a long way off. When society can't protect its members, the members tend to do it for themselves. That's when things get messy. Registered firearms are seldom used in crimes IMO because they are fairly easy to trace. But therein is the problem. It tells people who may want to collect registered guns just where they are. heckuva problem, and one for which I have no solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

It seems to me that registering hand guns and semi-automatics should stop most of the "accidental" gun deaths. I think that registration of hunting rifles is "over the top". Seems that sometimes the law makers go to costly extremes for no apparent reason.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

The reason, dianavan, is to make it look like they are doing something to solve a problem the majority of the (urban) public is concerned with. The reality is they aren't doing anything but creating another money-grab... and one which isn't very good because it is in fact costing them much more than they are taking in.

When all they really had to do was enforce the laws already in existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

you know an American senator wanted to make a ballistics registry of guns at the manufacturer level, that washington sniper case might have been solved a lot faster.

that is they would be able to trace the bullets to a specific gun and where it was sold which would be a good starting point for an investigation, other than waiting for the next person to be shot.

predictably the gun lobby fought it hard, not sure where it stands at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 08:10 PM

What would the rationale for opposing that kind of thing be? I'd have thought it'd be the kind of thing a gun lobby would be lobbying for, not against.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Ironmule
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 08:20 PM

That it wouldn't work as proposed. And it's way to easy to defeat, if you're a deliberate criminal. Thirdly, it in no way deals with the hundred million or so guns already floating around America.

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:03 AM

Dianavan, most of the gun crime here in NZ is from career thugs, and mostly they use sawn-offs, both rifles and shotguns. All of them stolen, because you will not get a license if you have a criminal record, so these are not 'licit' sawn-offs.
Thats why a register of hunting weapons is required.
The people who really worry me are the 'collectors' who have lots of legal weapons, and camo costumes to go with them. Unexploded bombs. I reckon.
I'm not an auto anti-gun man, I've been a soldier and I've hunted. I can see no good reason for a private citizen to have lots of weapons, particularly military ones, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Those aren't reasons for anyone actually to be opposed to the idea of gun registration, Jeff, though I suppose they could actually be reasons for gun-owners to be calling for a more rigorous registration system.

Why should a law-abiding gun-owner have any more objection to registering a gun than a car-owner would to registering a car? Even if it just means another charge to hang upon some criminal picked up with an unregistered gun, or one that was stolen from a legal gun owner, what's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:35 AM

Why does anyone who is law-abiding want a gun anyway? What purpose does a gun serve to anyone, other than to harm other creatures, human or otherwise? You're no safer on the streets of the USA, where any TD&H can have a gun, than you are in the UK. Stricter laws, and zero-tolerance enforcement, that's what's needed in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 07:45 AM

Strollin Johnny, using your logic, why do people have cars that can exceed the speed limits? They serve no purpose and kill far more children per year than handguns. More people are killed by kitchen knives and golf clubs so should we register them too? .

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM

I think there is a difference between death caused accidentally by a golf club, than being shot with a handgun.

There are lots of everyday items that can cause death, it doesn't mean that they are designed for it, and carried by the individual with the sole intention of using it for such ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:40 AM

Please define "death caused accidentally by a golf club" and the difference between this and death by being shot. For a further 5 marks elucidate upon which death you think people should prefer. Please show all work.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

Please turn this into a practical assignment : Cause the death of two people by each means and see which one carries the custodial sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:32 PM

I can imagine lots of reasons some law-abiding citrizen might wish to have a gun (even though I wouldn't agree with most of them) - but I can't even begin to imagine why such people wouldn't be the most enthusiastic supporters of laws to require guns to be registered.

I mean, you just don't get keen drivers going round saying that car licensing is a bad idea - you might get them wishing it was cheaper, but that's a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 12:54 AM

Cluin,

I would prefer to die from a gunshot at the age of 87. I would like to be shot at that age by a jealous husband. I only hope he misses his 30 year old wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 02:36 PM

Guest et al - the purpose for which I own my car is to provide Mrs. Johnny and myself with a convenient means of transport. I don't intentionally use it to harm other creatures, or to instil fear in others. The only reason for owning a gun (except in the case of a bona fide member of a target-shooting club, I guess) is to have the means of causing harm, or threatening harm, to another creature. Don't try to justify guns by claiming they're the same as cars, its like comparing apples and oranges and is a complete red-herring (and, as such, it proves you've lost the argument).

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

But if they were like cars I can't imagine that the main car-drivers pressure group in any civilised country would fight tooth-and-nail against having laws requiring driving tests and registering vehicles. Both of which appears to be the case in the case of guns in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

Of course guns aren't the same as cars...

you don't use your gun every day;
people aren't used to the sight of a gun coming towards them on our city streets;
people haven't been conditioned by the media to have an abnormal fear of the sight of a man driving a car;
nutty car groups don't employ old actors to make speeches promoting their right to own and drive Sherman tanks all over our towns;
people with guns aren't employing them while they are talking on their cell phones, adjusting their radio stations, yelling at the kids, eating a fast food hamburger, etc.;
every time someone is killed in a car accident, there isn't a hue and cry to have all cars removed from the possession of the general populace;

Plenty of differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM

Cluin, as I said, you lost the argument - if you don't see the logic in what I (and I guess McGrath and a lot of others) are saying, there's no hope for you. The real purpose of cars is a peaceful one - transport. If guns had a peaceful purpose I'd be right up there defending everyone's right to have one (even if, occasionally, someone was accidentally killed by one) - but they don't have a peaceful purpose, they are manufactured and owned for the sole reason of harming living creatures. If you deny that simple fact you are a self-deceiver.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 04:05 PM

Do not talk to me about self-deceit, Stroller. I don't know what airy-fairy world you're living in, but in my world things die and are killed so other things can live. Maybe it's not right, but it's always been that way and it always will be that way. Take it up with God or whatever power made the rules. If YOU don't wish to hunt, then don't. I respect that decision; hell, I don't do it as much as I used to either. Just don't take the attitude that nobody else should be allowed to because YOU don't like the thought of it. And largely urban residents shouldn't be allowed to make rules resulting from their fear and ignorance restricting the rights of largely rural residents. There's such a weird love/hate fetish surrounding guns today in our society. But for some us who've grown up around them and have always owned and used them, they ARE just tools. I don't see why I should have to justify owning the 3 hunting firearms I do own any more than I should have to justify the 4 guitars I own, or the 2 hammers, or the 1 minivan. But I got rid of my golf clubs years ago. They were just way too scary. ;O

For the record, I am opposed to citizens being able to own and use handguns and automatic assault-type weapons. Those are definitely firearms that are designed and meant for shooting human beings. There's no good reason for people outside of law enforcement and the military to have them. They are not tools designed for legitimate (and legal) hunting. And I also have no objections to registering my hunting rifles and shotgun. I did that as soon as the law said I had to. The only objection I ever had to it is the fucked-up way our (Canadian) government did it. I won't even get started on that here, except to say it was one more government program that was ill-conceived, ill-prepared, and inefficient.

But I still think there's hope for me. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:26 PM

I think most Americans who are opposed to registering guns are the same people who hold dear to their hearts "the right to bear arms".

Wasn't the "right to bear arms" put into the constitution to quarantee the people the ability to overthrow an oppressive government?

If so ... maybe they should get out their guns and see how far it gets them these days.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:14 AM

Hey there Cluin, what a testosterone-charged post! Precisely the reason for taking guns away from people - especially those who get aggressive when their unpleasant practices are challenged!

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:36 PM

I cannot think of one sinle, solitary reason why any human being needs a gun. They should be banned full stop. No manufacture of any weapons of any kind. Ooops...that won't work , someone might go out of business. Can't have that can we ?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:50 PM

Maybe I didn't make that clear, Guest.... for hunting. Just because it became distasteful and politically incorrect as the rural population became more and more urban in the last couple of generations, doesn't mean people don't still engage in it (as our species has for thousands of years), legally and safely.

And you think THAT was being aggressive, Johnny? Well, good luck in life, man.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM

Most of those thousands of years they did it without guns though. In principle hunting with guns is a bit analogous to fishing with dynamite...

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: The O'Meara
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:03 PM

Here's the problem with registration: There are a bunch of people who don't like guns because guns are used to kill people and that's offensive to them, doesn't matter if it's self-defense of person or family, guns are so bad a few extra killings of innocent people are worth not having them.

These people say "Reasonable Gun Control" when they mean "People should not have guns." They say "registration" is a good idea, then when they get it they say "That's a good first step." Toward what? So gun owners who would generally be in favor of registration are adamantly opposed to it because it isn't an end, it's a first step. And that registration leads to confiscation business has happened in places like England, and Washington D.C here in the U.S.

So maybe it's because, for some unknown reason, some people don't trust the promises of politicians.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM

dianavan,

I thought it was the right to bare arms. Couldn't figure out what all this gun talk was about.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM

Hunting is a not an essential of life, it is a hobby and as such should be lauded as a reason to own guns. That is just plain silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

Can't say that logic really stands up too well, O'Meara. Basically it's saying "even if the overwhelming majority of fellow Americans were to decide they want a clamp-down on private ownership of some types of guns, and they force the politicians to fall in line with this, and if need be they modift the Constitution so that that becomes practicable, we intend to hold on to our guns regardless."

I can understand there might be some far-out fanatics like that, the kind of people who join freaky paranoid militias (as opposed to "well regulated" ones envisaged in your Constitution), but it doesn't sound like the way a mainstream mass organisation in a democracy would be thinking.

And if that actually is the way the members of the NRA do think, then it would rather suggest that any ordinary sensible gun owner should look for another organisation to represent their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:21 AM

brucie -

I thought it was the right to bear arms but couldn't figure out why anyone would want arms like a bear.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:51 AM

Why do they make cars that can exceed the speed limit? why do they make cars that can accelerate 0-80 in six seconds? They serve no usefull purpose and I object to people who own them, they should be banned... I demand they be banned and taken off our streets so children can walk safely. Cars are not needed for public transportation buses and trains are more than adequate. More children are killed by drunk drivers in registered cars (not insured either) than with any handguns... Canada just spent millions registering guns, Imagine a health care program with that funding? how many lives would be saved? But no you onlt state guns are evil and should be banned...

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:53 AM

Just as long as we don't have the right to arm bears - those critters could be dangerous!

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:36 AM

The Gun has one purpose and one purpose only...to kill things. they ought to be banned, there is no logical reason for them to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bobjack
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bobjack
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:25 AM

Sorry. could not resist. Post no 100, I thank you, you have made an old guinea pig very happy!