BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz

Subject: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM

A friend of mine justsent me a magazine article from the N.R.A. claiming that since all handguns were confiscated in those countries, crime has gone through the roof. Comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:43 PM

Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:54 PM

My apologies kendall ... I did not mean your posting is bullshit (I read my comment and it might come over that way) I meant my first reaction to the NRA claim is that it is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 01:55 PM

Don't be fooled by that kind of rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:08 PM

Please have a look at Gun Death - International Comparisons. (You'll need to scroll down to it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:21 PM

UK figures for 2002, would seem to agree:

Gun crime trebles as weapons and drugs flood British cities from telegraph.co.uk

Text of article replaced by link. --JoeClone, 1-Mar-04.

Up by 46% in 2002, there was what the police refer to as a "slow-down" of around 3% in 2003. That is still a good indication that the law introduced after Dunblane did not do what it was supposed to do. Illegal arms are coming in from eastern Europe, case a few weeks ago, where 34 small machine pistols were discovered packed inside the spare tyre of a truck stopped for a routine inspection at Dover.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:34 PM

I suggest that they put more money into tightening up the illegal entry of these firearms to the UK. Better security at ports etc. Only a madman/woman would advocate we make them legal to combat the problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:34 PM

It's higher then it was, but at a level that is far far lower than in the United States.

I don't think anyone envisaged that banning handguns would make them vanish from society. Life isn't that simple. It does eliminate one source of guns, and reduces the danger of one type of gun crime. and that's as much as it can do.

What is rubbish is the implication which that NRA article apparently tries to promote, that there is some connection between the ban on handguns and the increase in shootings.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:44 PM

i agree with guest.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:45 PM

Food for thought and discussion.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:58 PM

I strongly suspect thay gun crime has increased in my area (Manchester, UK) because of the fact that handguns are now illegal. Sit in any pub with an element of 'gangstas' in and you will hear them bragging about their new gun like they used to about their new mountain bike or designer trainers. This IS from personal experience btw! It has become a fasion accesory.

Problem is that the law has been made but it is not being applied. Other laws work against it. Stop and Search is no longer available for instance. So how can the police hope to detect a hand gun before it is used? What has happened is that the people who do care about the law will not carry guns while those who do not will. Another unfair advantage for the criminal!

The banning of handguns was, I genuinely believe, done in good faith. However the politicos now realy need to think it through and evaluate how it can best be applied. Until then we will get more and more cases of illegal gun crime going unchecked while legal defense of person and property becomes an easy target for the enforcement agencies.

Just my views. (And of course, therfore, the right ones;-) )

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 02:58 PM

I'd say the punishment fits the crime................

Granny Gets Her Gun from truthorfiction.com

Text of article replaced by link. --JoeClone, 1-Mar-04.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:39 PM

Teribus - You might want to take some interest in some facts before spouting ill-informed opinion. There are times when I think you are unfairly attacked for who you are, rather than for what you say, on this board. This time, however, you are definitely talking absolute rubbish.

"On Wednesday the 13th of March 1996, evil visited one of the local primary schools of Dunblane. Thomas Hamilton (43), walked in armed with an assortment of high power handguns. He made his way to the gym hall and opened fire on a class full of 4 and 5 year old children. He killed sixteen children and their teacher Mrs Gwen Mayor (45). Then turned one of his own weapons on himself. Ten children and two adults who survived the shooting were rushed to hospital as soon as the emergency services arrived on scene. Not one person in the hall was left unwounded." (from a Dunblane memorial web-site)

As a direct result of this act, legislation was brought in effectively outlawing private possession of handguns. As a non-gun interested individual, I cannot now remember how complete the legislation was. However, one of the complaints of the gun fraternity at the time was that any restrictive gun law would seriously affect the ability of the UK to successfully compete in international competition (where the UK has generally been quite successful), with reference to the 2000 Olympics, so it certainly pre-dates the millenium. Some time spent Googling draws a statement of "The Tory Government Bill to prohibit civilians from owning handguns was given Royal Assent on February 27 1997."

Your quote, therefore, that "UK figures for 2002, would seem to agree: GUN crime has almost trebled in London during the past year..." has absolutely no factual or statistical relevance to UK gun laws, because those laws have already been in force for something like 7 years. For the comparison that you are attempting to make to be meaningful, you need to show that gun crime in the UK rose within 12-24 months of the introduction of anti-gun legislation.

Anything later (which 2002 figures are) is almost certainly causally unprovable & dependent on other factors (in this country, the most likely cause is drug related crime), & you are are merely falling prey to the propaganda of the rabid minority (those on the other side of the argument should also stop to consider the implication of that phrase!). I've always given you more credit for intelligence than that!

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 03:43 PM

Correction: "those laws have already been in force for something like 5 years", in respect of the 2002 figures you are quoting. My apologies for the temporal blindspot! :o

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:22 PM

More food for thought.
http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 04:42 PM

we have never had a right to bear arms mentality here. and consequently Australia is a pretty safe place. most australians have never seen a gun & wouldn't know what to do with one if they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:07 PM

Unless you are a criminal or a policeman, freda... now that gives me pause for thought...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:21 PM

oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/ forum/2002/02/section_09.html

oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/ forum/2002/02/section_09.html

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 06:24 PM

www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/general_public/ difference/default.asp

www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/en/general_public/ difference/default.asp


Two views.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: kendall
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:08 PM

How can anyone argue against a level playing field?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:28 PM

On the 'cat? Kendall, you know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 24 Feb 04 - 10:35 PM

Can any of our British 'catters comment on the rate of home invasion and muggings today compared to the pre ban days? I have long felt that if criminals have more reason to believe their victims will be unarmed, they will be more likely to commit the crime in the first place.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: LadyJean
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 12:34 AM

There was a gang war in my neighborhood last summer.

I wish the little idiots had been going after each other with baseball bats and pen knives. No such luck! They used guns they bought from fellow gangstas, who steal them, mostly from law abiding gun owners, and sell them to young fools who couldn't buy one at a gun store.

Would I have felt safer with a gun?
God no! My chief fear was stray bullets. A gun would have been no protection at all. Somebody disarming the young fools who shot each other over nothing would be more to the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:37 AM

Mark S - Actually, thiefs (home invasion types) don't want to meet anybody, armed or unarmed. If you happen to be armed, it is more likely that they will get it away from you and use it on you - this is especially true of muggers.

Re: the statistics

Is it possible that the higher rate in Canada might be due to the close proximity of the States? I know that gun smuggling is a problem .

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Metchosin
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:24 AM

also contray to what is claimed in Kendalls first post, all handguns are not confiscated in Canada, just banned and unregistered ones are affected. As far as the ban is concerned, it is in regard to semi-automatic military assault weapons and short barrelled hand guns. So cowboys can breath easy in Canada, as far as I can ascertain, you can still admire your Colt 45s, you just better not go out with them strapped on.

Gun registration is another matter. In 1892, Canada passed a law requiring that all individuals have a permit to carry a pistol and that vendors keep records of the sales and in 1934 Canada passed a law requiring all hand guns to be registered in this country.

Some have their shirt in a knot here now, because rifles and shotguns are to be registered as well. There have been huge cost overruns in the badly run government registration programme which hasn't helped matters very much.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Hrothgar
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 02:27 AM

Article in one of our local papers a couple of days ago quoting statistics that show gun-related deaths in Queensland have halved since the gun buy-back in 1996.

I'll dig out a reference if anybody is interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 03:33 AM

Raedwulf,

You should take issue with Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner.

The claim, kendall asked us to comment on was - "since all handguns were confiscated in those countries, crime has gone through the roof."

Now with respect to crimes involving firearms the statistics show that the law passed in 1997 has had no effect whatsoever in deterrring those wishing to acquire guns and use them.

"It was hoped that the measure would reduce the number of handguns available to criminals. According to internal Home Office statistics, however, handgun crime is now at its highest since 1993."

So what was the law passed for? To reduce the probability of another Dunblane? Has it? There certainly hasn't been an incident on the same scale since 1996, but that is only by chance - remember the two youngsters gunned down at the bus stop, who got caught in the cross-fire of a gang shoot-out? What would have been the result if that had been a school playground or in a shopping centre? Outlawing gun ownership has done nothing to improve the situation, as anyone wishing to get a gun can do it, and do it with apparently increasing ease - and that holds true for the Hamiltons (Dunblane) and Ryans (Hungerford) of society as well as the criminal element, only difference in the past was that the Police knew that the likes of Hamilton and Ryan had guns, could check them, and had the power to confiscate them. Now they only know about it after the gun has been used. Are we in better shape, or worse off?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM

The UK increase in burglaries is drug related. It is a means to an end. They are not in there stealing the diamonds like Raffles. They are pinching the video for a rock of crack.

We need to tackle the problem that causes the crime. Not arm everyone to the teeth and sit back and watch the bullets fly aimlessly.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 04:44 AM

When I was a youth in England, to carry a firearm for criminal purposes ensured an automatic doubling of the assigned sentence.
That was my understanding of the situation, and there were VERY few crimes where firearms were used, despite the fact that most of the male and many of the female population were ex-service and did know how to use them.
You might get your head beaten in with a pickaxe handle (favourite for blaggers) but you were unlikely to be shot with or threatened with firearms.
I also understand that the rate of gun crime is very low in Switzerland, where most adult males have their military rifle in the closet, as required for reservists. I stand to be corrected here, not having current information.
Fings ain't wot they used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM

Can any of our British 'catters comment on the rate of home invasion and muggings today compared to the pre ban days? I have long felt that if criminals have more reason to believe their victims will be unarmed, they will be more likely to commit the crime in the first place.

Doesn't realy work like that I'm afraid, Mark. Your questions reads as if it was common practice for people in the UK to have guns before the ban and this was not the case. To even own a gun you had to jump through legal hoops. To carry one was, in most cases, an offense anyway. The ban simply made it, in theory, impossible rather than difficult. Well, impossible for honest people that is.

But now we are back to the level playing field argument. I am not sure I agree that to level thing up we should all be allowed to carry a weapon. I would prefer it if the law were carried out properly and that the police were allowed to search those people that they know are likely to have firearms.

But now we are back to civil rights arguments. I am quite happy for law enforcement agencies to have random stop and search. I am happy to carry an identity card. But I am not a criminal. Nor am I the innocent young black lad who is stopped for no reason by police 5 times a day because he fits the 'gangsta' profile. Tough one init?

And so we go round and round.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:45 AM

DtG   Bullshit Mate, There were plenty of guns around in jolly old England.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 07:58 AM

Did I say there were no guns? I think not. Sorry if I gave that impresion. The main point was that it was not common practice to carry them around for protection as MarkS's post seemd to imply.

I thought that my post made that clear but obviously not. I will rephrase.

Before gun ban. Guns carried by baddies. Baddies locked up.
After gun ban. Guns carried by baddies. Goodies locked up.
What do we do? Dunno:-(

Better? ;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:15 AM

that Gun toting Granny article doesn't sound Australian.

"I've got me a gun & I've been shootin' all my life"? - not an Australian way of speaking,

Skid row, neighborhood (US spelling there), "sure as hell", wino, flophouse?? Not australian terms, & Austalian rape victims are not normally named.

Has someone re-located this article to Australia's Melbourne?

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:28 AM

just what I thought Sandra ..

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Willie-O
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:42 AM

Well, as Metchosin pointed out, handguns have not as a class been banned or confiscated in Canada, but various subspecies of firearms, both long and short, have become illegal or restricted over the past 25 years. Handguns, as a rule, have always been fairly difficult to get, and permits to carry them even more so. Yes, there is an underground market and a lot of people have them who shouldn't, but due to its nature no one can substantiate claims about how many there are or aren't.

The gun lobby and all rural firearms owners complain loudly and endlessly about the registration program, and as far as the financial overruns associated with it, they have a point. Is it useful? I rather suspect it is, because its result is less firearms hanging around for no particular reason, and improperly stored to boot. The endless distinction between "criminal" weapons and "law-abiding" ones is simply not based in reality. If guns are more prevalent more people will use them in spontaneous violence, not to mention accidental shootings.   

The recent spate in gang-related gun violence in Toronto reflects the tendency of gangs to conduct business through violence. You can certainly argue that the gun registry hasn't done anything to reduce that type of gun violence, but the notion that it has contributed to it is just plain wacky.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Feb 04 - 01:39 PM

Metchosin is right. The registration of rifles and shotguns in Canada has been a nightmare (and from my point of view, unnecessary). Handguns have had to be registered for a long time. I'd like to see the statistics for accidental shootings and/or the statistics for children injured by firearms.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:24 AM

G'day Sandra,

I don't know the name(s) of the sort of American "Yellow Press" that run to this sort of thing, but I've seen other (unrelated) cases of really dubious and unsourced stories published in US with "far Australia" as a safe, remote but (~) English-speaking setting for stories of similar ubelievability.

(That said ... Freda had better have her glasses script checked - I remember specifically doing a count of visible pistols during a 30-minute lunch-hour foray (I remember it as the week after the Port Arthur shootings). I counted 15 semi-automatic pistols and revolvers on George St Sydney ... Police, security guards, armoured car staff, &c - and I know well that many more were not on display (eg - in banks). Perhaps I notice better as I have trained with such weapons and was trained to look very carefully for them ... but there are many more than I remember 40 years back when I started work.

I worry about some of the people who legally carry them ... I know there is a trade in 'lost'/'misplaced'/overwise acquired illicit guns ... and the only people who ever offered such to me - were police! (A long time ago).

The problem is that you can't push this genie back in the bottle - the fall of Russian Communism has seen the rise of pseudo-American style "Mafias" in the former Eastern states who sell anything that makes money ... and weapons are fatally attractive and there are millions of Eastern military firearms out there with nobody counting.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:08 AM

Here's a thought - Northern Ireland's not exactly been short of guns... now with the ceasefire, the crime level (the so-called Ordinary Decent Crimnal type crime) has rocketed. The latest worrying thing is the huge rise in elderly people being robbed in their own homes, usually with violence. Anything to do with guns or lack thereof? Hmmm, I've heard a few people mutter that a bit of civil unrest might just drop the crime rate again. But let people legally carry weapons? After all the violence we've been through? I sure as hell don't want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:44 AM

Jeff Cooper versus Terrorism from the Texas State Rifle Association, reprinted from 1975 Guns & Ammo Annual

Text of article replaced by link. --JoeClone, 1-Mar-04.

Another excellent article that may be of interest to you, is titled "A Nation of Cowards." It was written by Jeffrey R. Snyder and originally published in Fall, 1993 issue of The Public Interest, a quarterly journal of opinion published by National Affairs, Inc. It is an excellent "state of the state" commentary.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:45 PM

I take it that article is by a writer in the USA? One look at these figures for Gun Deaths, and it seems pretty clear why a lot of us take with a pinch of salt anything emanating from the USA encouraging gun possession:

Gun deaths per 100,000 population

                   Homicide             Suicide         Unintentional

USA             4.08 (1999)             6.08 (1999)      0.42 (1999)

Canad          0.54 (1999)             2.65 (1997)      0.15 (1997)

Switzerland    0.50 (1999)             5.78 (1998)      -

Scotland       0.12 (1999)             0.27 (1999)      -

England/Wales   0.12 (1999/00)          0.22 (1999)      0.01 (1999)

Japan          0.04 (1998)            0.04 (1995)      <0.01 (1997)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:58 PM

Interesting statistics, but defective. No blame to you, McGrath, I have tried to find better ones and failed.

If, for instance, the figures across all methods for suicides and homicides in Japan were as large as in the USA (I strongly doubt it) but in Japan swords were the usual mean for suicide and homicide, then the availability of guns would not have increased the overall figures. Only the particular mean to reach the planned end would be different.

Possible with the figures cited above but not convincing for me.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM

Most 'domestic' murders are crimes of passion. If it's really easy to grab a gun, it stands to reason . . . .

Responsible gun owners do not keep loaded guns in their houses. Gun in one locked place, ammunition in another. I too grew up with guns, but I still wouldn't want a loaded one in the house. That simple.

One of my school students is an excellent pistol shot. Her mom and dad know firearm safety. So does she. However, too many people don't. That is scary.

I have lost friends to suicide. Not one of them used a gun.

So, I'm mixed on where I stand with regard to folks having guns. I figure if you know what you're doing and you're friendly, that's a good think. The opposite holds true. But if you're friendly and an idiot, I don't want you within three miles of my family.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:35 AM

brucie - good points all.

I'm still waiting to see the world wide statistics for death and injury to children (spouses should also be included).

Again, I see more of a problem with handguns than I do rifles and shotguns. Handguns are just a little too handy.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: The O'Meara
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:04 AM

There's some evidence to show that the reason for the different stats in different countries is cultural. For instance the gun death numbers for Japanese-Americans, who have access to firearms same as any other Americans, are even lower than in Japan itself. Seems to suggest access to firearms is not the problem, and restricting access is not the solution.
There's also the notion that the right to keep and bear arms is the difference between being a citizen and being a subject. England, Canada and Japan are the countries most often compared to the U.S. for gun crime. Americans think of themselves as more "Free" than people in those countries, and are generally willing to put up with the higher gun death stats that result. (Same as allowing more highway deaths for a higher speed limit.)
I generally agree with both propositions, but I'd like to see some unbiased statistics on the actual result of restrictive gun laws, for instance honest "before and after" numbers with other factors ruled out. What were the numbers before handguns were banned and after the ban. And I want to see the numbers, not somebody's interpretation as to what they mean.
For instance, there are 30 some odd states in the U.S. that passed laws allowing citizens to carry concealed handguns. In every one of those states the violent crime rate fell, and the "gun crime" rates either fell or stayed the same. So what would the argument against concealed carry be?
But the gun issue is viewed as a gut-level survival issue by both sides and unbiased number are hard to come by.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:48 PM

I'd agree that the main factors is in determining the rates of gun violence in a society are likely to be cultural rather than merely access to guns. There are places with high levels of gun ownership and low rates of gun crime (though I don't think the reverse holds true).

However my understanding is that those are generally predominantly rural societies - what is odd about the USA is an urban society which has somehow built into its culture a reverence towards gun ownership.

The propensity towards violence arises primarioly, I suggest, from other aspects of urban life, such as overcrowding and erosion of informal communal controls. Where ginds are present this feeds back into this, so that incidents which would normally involve lethal actual or symbolic violence (fists, boots, even knives, for that matter, at one extreme, or just verbal abuse at the other) turn lethal. The presence of a gun means that it is very easy indeed for a momentary loss of self-control to cause one or more deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:53 PM

I'd agree that the main factors in determining the rates of gun violence in a society are likely to be cultural rather than merely access to guns. There are places with high levels of gun ownership and low rates of gun crime (though I don't think the reverse holds true).

However my understanding is that those are generally predominantly rural societies - what is odd about the USA is an urban society which has somehow built into its culture a reverence towards gun ownership.

The propensity towards violence arises primarily, I suggest, from other aspects of urban life, such as overcrowding and erosion of informal communal controls. Where guns are present, this feeds back into this, so that incidents which would normally involve relatively less lethal actual or symbolic violence (fists, boots, even knives, for that matter, at one extreme, or just verbal abuse at the other) turn lethal. The presence of a gun means that it is very easy indeed for a momentary loss of self-control to cause one or more deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:01 AM

The gun-toting granny story above is a load of kife. It makes the rounds through e-mail every six months or so.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:39 AM

I have a somewhat different take on the prevalence of violence in society today. When I was young,the only people getting blown away were 'red indians,' who were as alien as ET from an English point of view.
Nowadays, violence seems to be the norm, and if you turn on the TV you will see several murders every night, and for some films violence is the REASON they were made.
Children play games on their computers that are just about killing.
I can separate fantasy from fact, but I wonder if someone growing up in this environment can.
Desensitisation is the term the shrinks use.
There is more violence in a Punch & Judy show than I have been exposed to in my entire (working-class) adult life.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:50 AM

In late November, 2001, Larry Howells was arrested in Erlanger, Kentucky, for molesting young boys and supplying them with marijuana. On or very close to December 1, 2001, he was shot in the "groin" by the mother of two of the boys -- she had a "concealed carry permit" and used a .357 magnum pistol to literally blow his scrotum and testicles off. Immediately afterwards she turned herself over to the police, the officers who had been escorting Howells, in fact.

Howells is in prison for supplying drugs and child molestation, serving something like 35 years. The prosecutor is still trying to find a venue in which to try the woman.

The story is carried in the Cincinnati papers; you can search for it at www.cincinnati.com.

The Oz story sound a lot like the Northern Kentucky one....

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:02 PM

They use cars to kill each other in Boston, check the news. Cars are registered too!

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:31 PM

Well, many urban legends are around because people want to hear them. I think that if something like that happened to someone in my family, I might want to take the perpetrator for a walk. I know it is not nice to think that way, but rape isn't nice, either. It's an interesting phenomena (urban legends), and many of them seem to satisify a cry for 'real' justice from people. I'm reminded of the rapist who was caught and taken to a carpentry workshop. His testes were put into a vise, and the vice was closed sufficiently so he could not escape. The fellow who had put the guy there then picked up a hacksaw. The rapist's eyes went wide and he screamed, "You're gonna cut my b@lls off!" to which the fellow said, "No, I'm cutting the handle off the vise, giving you a razor knife, and then I'm lighting the workshop on fire. You will be cutting your own b@lls off."

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:36 PM

As worrying as anything is the number of seemingly normal people who would get some satisfaction from that kind of sick fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:34 PM

Yeah, ain't that the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:05 AM

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:16 AM

I worked with a bunch of crims once. the difference is, ordinary people might think about it. crims do it. and are proud of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

As sick fantasies go, brucie, that's a pretty complicated one (plus you have to burn down your workshop too). As I'd advise all the supervillians in the James Bond flicks, "Just shoot him." And use the workshop to build a coffin.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

Bottom line, too many people, and attitude. Of course if someone is over the edge angry, and there is a gun handy, there is a chance they will use it. But, it's not the gun that is to blame, it is the mind set of the shooter. So, how do we change the mind set of people who are apt to shoot someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

Address the reasons they feel obliged to do it.

It would be a start, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

We don't give them guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

Almost everybody sooner or later gets in some kind of a quarrel where they feel like saying "I could kill you" - and often enough, at that moment, they mean it. Having a gun handy makes it too easy for that moment to become permanent.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:41 AM

Well, I've never felt like killing anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:02 AM

Cluin, you haven't been out much have you?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:07 AM

in australia ordinary people don't have guns. there is no reasons why they need to.

to allow guns for all is to create a violent society.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM

Guest, you are wrong. So are you, freda.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Arnie
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 03:07 PM

I read today that one of Manchester's thugs was jailed for life today - he lead the Longsight gang named after the area the crawled around in. He's been confined to a wheelchair ever since an accident in his youth, but that didn't stop him building up his 'business' empire. His mob used Uzi sub-machine pistols and didn't seem to have any problem in getting hold of them. I suppose his successor is already taking over the action......

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM

Well, I see two sides to the 'gun' issue. In my mind, the proper dispensers of justice are the courts, not individuals in society. Problem with that is when people are threatened 'right now', the courts are a long way off. When society can't protect its members, the members tend to do it for themselves. That's when things get messy. Registered firearms are seldom used in crimes IMO because they are fairly easy to trace. But therein is the problem. It tells people who may want to collect registered guns just where they are. heckuva problem, and one for which I have no solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

It seems to me that registering hand guns and semi-automatics should stop most of the "accidental" gun deaths. I think that registration of hunting rifles is "over the top". Seems that sometimes the law makers go to costly extremes for no apparent reason.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:52 PM

The reason, dianavan, is to make it look like they are doing something to solve a problem the majority of the (urban) public is concerned with. The reality is they aren't doing anything but creating another money-grab... and one which isn't very good because it is in fact costing them much more than they are taking in.

When all they really had to do was enforce the laws already in existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:56 PM

you know an American senator wanted to make a ballistics registry of guns at the manufacturer level, that washington sniper case might have been solved a lot faster.

that is they would be able to trace the bullets to a specific gun and where it was sold which would be a good starting point for an investigation, other than waiting for the next person to be shot.

predictably the gun lobby fought it hard, not sure where it stands at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 08:10 PM

What would the rationale for opposing that kind of thing be? I'd have thought it'd be the kind of thing a gun lobby would be lobbying for, not against.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Ironmule
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 08:20 PM

That it wouldn't work as proposed. And it's way to easy to defeat, if you're a deliberate criminal. Thirdly, it in no way deals with the hundred million or so guns already floating around America.

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Gurney
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:03 AM

Dianavan, most of the gun crime here in NZ is from career thugs, and mostly they use sawn-offs, both rifles and shotguns. All of them stolen, because you will not get a license if you have a criminal record, so these are not 'licit' sawn-offs.
Thats why a register of hunting weapons is required.
The people who really worry me are the 'collectors' who have lots of legal weapons, and camo costumes to go with them. Unexploded bombs. I reckon.
I'm not an auto anti-gun man, I've been a soldier and I've hunted. I can see no good reason for a private citizen to have lots of weapons, particularly military ones, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Those aren't reasons for anyone actually to be opposed to the idea of gun registration, Jeff, though I suppose they could actually be reasons for gun-owners to be calling for a more rigorous registration system.

Why should a law-abiding gun-owner have any more objection to registering a gun than a car-owner would to registering a car? Even if it just means another charge to hang upon some criminal picked up with an unregistered gun, or one that was stolen from a legal gun owner, what's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:35 AM

Why does anyone who is law-abiding want a gun anyway? What purpose does a gun serve to anyone, other than to harm other creatures, human or otherwise? You're no safer on the streets of the USA, where any TD&H can have a gun, than you are in the UK. Stricter laws, and zero-tolerance enforcement, that's what's needed in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 07:45 AM

Strollin Johnny, using your logic, why do people have cars that can exceed the speed limits? They serve no purpose and kill far more children per year than handguns. More people are killed by kitchen knives and golf clubs so should we register them too? .

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 09:14 AM

I think there is a difference between death caused accidentally by a golf club, than being shot with a handgun.

There are lots of everyday items that can cause death, it doesn't mean that they are designed for it, and carried by the individual with the sole intention of using it for such ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 11:40 AM

Please define "death caused accidentally by a golf club" and the difference between this and death by being shot. For a further 5 marks elucidate upon which death you think people should prefer. Please show all work.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

Please turn this into a practical assignment : Cause the death of two people by each means and see which one carries the custodial sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 04 - 03:32 PM

I can imagine lots of reasons some law-abiding citrizen might wish to have a gun (even though I wouldn't agree with most of them) - but I can't even begin to imagine why such people wouldn't be the most enthusiastic supporters of laws to require guns to be registered.

I mean, you just don't get keen drivers going round saying that car licensing is a bad idea - you might get them wishing it was cheaper, but that's a different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 12:54 AM

Cluin,

I would prefer to die from a gunshot at the age of 87. I would like to be shot at that age by a jealous husband. I only hope he misses his 30 year old wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 02:36 PM

Guest et al - the purpose for which I own my car is to provide Mrs. Johnny and myself with a convenient means of transport. I don't intentionally use it to harm other creatures, or to instil fear in others. The only reason for owning a gun (except in the case of a bona fide member of a target-shooting club, I guess) is to have the means of causing harm, or threatening harm, to another creature. Don't try to justify guns by claiming they're the same as cars, its like comparing apples and oranges and is a complete red-herring (and, as such, it proves you've lost the argument).

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

But if they were like cars I can't imagine that the main car-drivers pressure group in any civilised country would fight tooth-and-nail against having laws requiring driving tests and registering vehicles. Both of which appears to be the case in the case of guns in the States.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

Of course guns aren't the same as cars...

you don't use your gun every day;
people aren't used to the sight of a gun coming towards them on our city streets;
people haven't been conditioned by the media to have an abnormal fear of the sight of a man driving a car;
nutty car groups don't employ old actors to make speeches promoting their right to own and drive Sherman tanks all over our towns;
people with guns aren't employing them while they are talking on their cell phones, adjusting their radio stations, yelling at the kids, eating a fast food hamburger, etc.;
every time someone is killed in a car accident, there isn't a hue and cry to have all cars removed from the possession of the general populace;

Plenty of differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM

Cluin, as I said, you lost the argument - if you don't see the logic in what I (and I guess McGrath and a lot of others) are saying, there's no hope for you. The real purpose of cars is a peaceful one - transport. If guns had a peaceful purpose I'd be right up there defending everyone's right to have one (even if, occasionally, someone was accidentally killed by one) - but they don't have a peaceful purpose, they are manufactured and owned for the sole reason of harming living creatures. If you deny that simple fact you are a self-deceiver.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 04:05 PM

Do not talk to me about self-deceit, Stroller. I don't know what airy-fairy world you're living in, but in my world things die and are killed so other things can live. Maybe it's not right, but it's always been that way and it always will be that way. Take it up with God or whatever power made the rules. If YOU don't wish to hunt, then don't. I respect that decision; hell, I don't do it as much as I used to either. Just don't take the attitude that nobody else should be allowed to because YOU don't like the thought of it. And largely urban residents shouldn't be allowed to make rules resulting from their fear and ignorance restricting the rights of largely rural residents. There's such a weird love/hate fetish surrounding guns today in our society. But for some us who've grown up around them and have always owned and used them, they ARE just tools. I don't see why I should have to justify owning the 3 hunting firearms I do own any more than I should have to justify the 4 guitars I own, or the 2 hammers, or the 1 minivan. But I got rid of my golf clubs years ago. They were just way too scary. ;O

For the record, I am opposed to citizens being able to own and use handguns and automatic assault-type weapons. Those are definitely firearms that are designed and meant for shooting human beings. There's no good reason for people outside of law enforcement and the military to have them. They are not tools designed for legitimate (and legal) hunting. And I also have no objections to registering my hunting rifles and shotgun. I did that as soon as the law said I had to. The only objection I ever had to it is the fucked-up way our (Canadian) government did it. I won't even get started on that here, except to say it was one more government program that was ill-conceived, ill-prepared, and inefficient.

But I still think there's hope for me. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 04 - 11:26 PM

I think most Americans who are opposed to registering guns are the same people who hold dear to their hearts "the right to bear arms".

Wasn't the "right to bear arms" put into the constitution to quarantee the people the ability to overthrow an oppressive government?

If so ... maybe they should get out their guns and see how far it gets them these days.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:14 AM

Hey there Cluin, what a testosterone-charged post! Precisely the reason for taking guns away from people - especially those who get aggressive when their unpleasant practices are challenged!

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 01:36 PM

I cannot think of one sinle, solitary reason why any human being needs a gun. They should be banned full stop. No manufacture of any weapons of any kind. Ooops...that won't work , someone might go out of business. Can't have that can we ?

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Cluin
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 02:50 PM

Maybe I didn't make that clear, Guest.... for hunting. Just because it became distasteful and politically incorrect as the rural population became more and more urban in the last couple of generations, doesn't mean people don't still engage in it (as our species has for thousands of years), legally and safely.

And you think THAT was being aggressive, Johnny? Well, good luck in life, man.   ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM

Most of those thousands of years they did it without guns though. In principle hunting with guns is a bit analogous to fishing with dynamite...

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: The O'Meara
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:03 PM

Here's the problem with registration: There are a bunch of people who don't like guns because guns are used to kill people and that's offensive to them, doesn't matter if it's self-defense of person or family, guns are so bad a few extra killings of innocent people are worth not having them.

These people say "Reasonable Gun Control" when they mean "People should not have guns." They say "registration" is a good idea, then when they get it they say "That's a good first step." Toward what? So gun owners who would generally be in favor of registration are adamantly opposed to it because it isn't an end, it's a first step. And that registration leads to confiscation business has happened in places like England, and Washington D.C here in the U.S.

So maybe it's because, for some unknown reason, some people don't trust the promises of politicians.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM

dianavan,

I thought it was the right to bare arms. Couldn't figure out what all this gun talk was about.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM

Hunting is a not an essential of life, it is a hobby and as such should be lauded as a reason to own guns. That is just plain silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

Can't say that logic really stands up too well, O'Meara. Basically it's saying "even if the overwhelming majority of fellow Americans were to decide they want a clamp-down on private ownership of some types of guns, and they force the politicians to fall in line with this, and if need be they modift the Constitution so that that becomes practicable, we intend to hold on to our guns regardless."

I can understand there might be some far-out fanatics like that, the kind of people who join freaky paranoid militias (as opposed to "well regulated" ones envisaged in your Constitution), but it doesn't sound like the way a mainstream mass organisation in a democracy would be thinking.

And if that actually is the way the members of the NRA do think, then it would rather suggest that any ordinary sensible gun owner should look for another organisation to represent their interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:21 AM

brucie -

I thought it was the right to bear arms but couldn't figure out why anyone would want arms like a bear.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:51 AM

Why do they make cars that can exceed the speed limit? why do they make cars that can accelerate 0-80 in six seconds? They serve no usefull purpose and I object to people who own them, they should be banned... I demand they be banned and taken off our streets so children can walk safely. Cars are not needed for public transportation buses and trains are more than adequate. More children are killed by drunk drivers in registered cars (not insured either) than with any handguns... Canada just spent millions registering guns, Imagine a health care program with that funding? how many lives would be saved? But no you onlt state guns are evil and should be banned...

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: JennyO
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:53 AM

Just as long as we don't have the right to arm bears - those critters could be dangerous!

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:36 AM

The Gun has one purpose and one purpose only...to kill things. they ought to be banned, there is no logical reason for them to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bobjack
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bobjack
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:25 AM

Sorry. could not resist. Post no 100, I thank you, you have made an old guinea pig very happy!

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Splott Man
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:43 AM

Well done, you pipped me Bobjack

Subject: RE: BS: Crime in Canada, England and Oz
From: Bobjack
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM

hard luck splotty old boy, I got three 100's this morning. Did I read the threads? Did I buggery!