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BS: for those going through Hard Times

GUEST,freda underhill 26 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM
Peace 26 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 26 Feb 04 - 08:53 PM
bengi 26 Feb 04 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Feb 04 - 09:56 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM
LadyJean 26 Feb 04 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 26 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 27 Feb 04 - 07:40 AM
Fibula Mattock 27 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM
Fibula Mattock 27 Feb 04 - 10:08 AM
JennyO 27 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM
Jeanie 27 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 27 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM
Noreen 27 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 27 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM
flattop 27 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM
flattop 27 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM
ranger1 27 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM
SINSULL 27 Feb 04 - 09:16 PM
MAG 27 Feb 04 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM
kendall 28 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 28 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM
Little Robyn 28 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 28 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 04 - 08:19 PM
Jeri 28 Feb 04 - 08:48 PM
Fibula Mattock 29 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM
ranger1 29 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM
Amos 29 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 29 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM
Walking Eagle 29 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM
Amergin 29 Feb 04 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,freda 29 Feb 04 - 07:57 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 04 - 10:19 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM
Kim C 27 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM
Kim C 27 Apr 04 - 10:49 AM
Peter T. 27 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM
freda underhill 27 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM
Amos 27 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM
Peter T. 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM
Amos 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM
Amos 27 Apr 04 - 12:23 PM
Kim C 27 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM
SueB 27 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,darkriver (no cookie) 28 Apr 04 - 02:10 AM
Mudlark 28 Apr 04 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,freda 28 Apr 04 - 02:49 AM
SueB 28 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 28 Apr 04 - 02:28 PM
Amos 28 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Bex McK 29 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM
Amos 29 Apr 04 - 11:29 AM
Mudlark 29 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM
Pistachio 29 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM
freda underhill 01 May 04 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Pedro 04 May 04 - 02:46 PM
Mudlark 04 May 04 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,Pedro 04 May 04 - 04:59 PM
harpgirl 04 May 04 - 05:21 PM
Steve in Idaho 04 May 04 - 06:07 PM
GUEST,Pedro 04 May 04 - 09:38 PM
Gervase 05 May 04 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Pedro 06 May 04 - 02:48 AM
Gervase 06 May 04 - 06:52 AM
GUEST,Pedro 06 May 04 - 04:08 PM
akenaton 06 May 04 - 04:37 PM
JennyO 07 May 04 - 01:29 AM
GUEST 07 May 04 - 12:43 PM
JennyO 07 May 04 - 02:05 PM
Amos 07 May 04 - 05:59 PM
harpgirl 07 May 04 - 06:27 PM
freda underhill 08 May 04 - 07:56 AM
Gervase 10 May 04 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,MOAB 18 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM
GUEST 06 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM
Joe_F 06 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM
Amos 06 Oct 04 - 10:16 PM
freda underhill 06 Oct 04 - 10:39 PM
Fibula Mattock 07 Oct 04 - 07:14 AM
The Fooles Troupe 07 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM
jeffp 07 Oct 04 - 11:12 AM
GUEST 29 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 29 Dec 04 - 08:16 AM
Ebbie 29 Dec 04 - 02:00 PM
Azizi 24 Mar 05 - 11:31 PM
robomatic 25 Mar 05 - 12:36 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 25 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 25 Mar 05 - 12:39 PM
Once Famous 25 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM
YorkshireYankee 05 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM
freda underhill 06 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,John Hardly 06 Apr 05 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Liz the Squeak 06 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM
freda underhill 09 Dec 06 - 11:28 PM
gecko 10 Dec 06 - 02:31 AM

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Subject: BS: thoughts on Hard Times
From: GUEST,freda underhill
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM

a couple of Catters are having a bad time right now. sometimes no amount of positive words, no matter how well intended, from someone else, can change that. but it can be good to know that others have been there too, and understand. here is a powerful poem by the Indian poet, rabindranath tagore, on the topic of - yes, Hard Times.


HARD TIMES

Music is silenced, the dark descending slowly
Has stripped unending skies of all companions.
Weariness grips your limbs and within the locked horizons
Dumbly ring the bells of hugely gathering fears.
Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

It's not melodious woodlands but the leaps and falls
Of an ocean's drowsy booming,
Not a grove bedecked with flowers but a tumult flecked with foam.
Where is the shore that stored your buds and leaves?
Where the nest and the branch's hold?
Still, O bird, my sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

Stretching in front of you the night's immensity
Hides the western hill where sleeps the distant sun;
Still with bated breath the world is counting time and swimming
Across the shoreless dark a crescent moon
Has thinly just appeared upon the dim horizon.
--But O my bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

From upper skies the stars with pointing fingers
Intently watch your course and death's impatience
Lashes at you from the deeps in swirling waves ;
And sad entreaties line the farthest shore
With hands outstretched and crooning
' Come, O come ! ' Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

All that is past: your fears and loves and hopes ;
All that is lost: your words and lamentation ;
No longer yours a home nor a bed composed of flowers.
For wings are all you have, and the sky's broadening countryard,
And the dawn steeped in darkness, lacking all direction.
Dear bird, my sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings!

An adaption from Rabindranath Tagore


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM

Beautiful, Freda, beautiful. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:53 PM

Thanks for posting this, freda. I agree with bruce... it is beautiful. The good thing about this cafe is so many of us have been down that same dark road. Sometimes we can give encouragement, just because we've been through it.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: bengi
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:35 PM

Off the DT

HARD TIMES COME AGAIN NO MORE
(Stephen Foster)


1. Let us pause in life's pleasures and count its many tears,
While we all sup sorrow with the poor;
There's a song that will linger forever in our ears;
Oh Hard times come again no more.

Chorus:
Tis the song, the sigh of the weary,
Hard Times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered around my cabin door;
Oh hard times come again no more.

2. While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay,
There are frail forms fainting at the door;
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say
Oh hard times come again no more.

3. There's a pale drooping maiden who toils her life away,
With a worn heart whose better days are o'er:
Though her voice would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day,
Oh hard times come again no more.

4. Tis a sigh that is wafted across the troubled wave,
Tis a wail that is heard upon the shore
Tis a dirge that is murmured around the lowly grave
Oh hard times come again no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:56 PM

Also a decent read....by Dickens.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM

Well danged, if we're gonna get down wid it6 lets jus' get down wid it. Know what I mean? Robin Fulks...

God help us all
in troubled dream some peace to find
the night is long
and those now gone they haunt my mind

The lone voice calls
the shadowed face towards me turns
her arms unfold
and on her breast my name is burned

Call out the flame or go
love left a child to roam
but my love ahs lmog turned cold
and night child is a stranger

Go, child go
from mental rage your dreams have flown
your home has fallen still
and thru it all still winds have blown

reserve with you in
there'so sweet taste of day's gone by
a long lost man
who sees no light nor hears you cry

Call out the flame or gpo
love left a child to to raom
but my love has long grown cold
night child is a stranger

Yeah, this is the hard times at its hardest........

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM

By Stephen Foster, writer of great American folk music.

From EmmyLou Harris' Live at The Ryman album:

[SPONSOR]
(stephen foster)

Let us pause in life's pleasures and count it's many tears
While we all sup sorrow with the poor.
There's a song that will linger forever in our ears,
Oh, hard times, come again no more

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay.
There are frail forms fainting at the door
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say,
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

There's a pale drooping maiden who foils her life away
With a worn out heart, whose better days are o'er.
Though her voice it would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day,
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:10 PM

Back when there still was a Smokey City Folk Festival, it ended with an outdoor concert on Sunday, that was rained out pretty regularly. Which discouraged us die hard folkies. But it did not drive us away.
We had a truly spectacular downpour the first year the concert was in Point Park. We all took refuge under a bridge. Some of the musicians dried off their instruments, and we all sang "Hard Times Come Again No More". The accoustics under that bridge were wonderful. And I have had few better times at Smokey City.

On another memorable afternoon, lightning shorted out the amplifiers. So we crowded on the stage to hear the last of the music.

I miss Smoky City.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM

Lady Jean

If you ever heard Emmylou's version, which is acapella with her band The Nash Ramblers singing harmony parts do it live on the Ryman album, I guarantee you goose bumps.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:40 AM

The Chorus to Find Rest Tonight:

So God bless those who find mercy in sleep
All those who sow who never will reap
All those who search who never find peace
May they find rest tonight

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM

I don't wish to be nauseous or nauseated, but this works for me:

Everything is Going to be All Right

How should I not be glad to contemplate
the clouds clearing beyond the dormer window
and a high tide reflected on the ceiling?
There will be dying, there will be dying,
but there is no need to go into that.
The line flows from the hand unbidden
and the hidden source is the watchful heart.
The sun rises in spite of everything
and the far cities are beautiful and bright.
I lie here in a riot of sunlight
watching the day break and the clouds flying.
Everything is going to be all right.

Derek Mahon


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM

When I was a young child I came across a sign (in a music shop window - funnily enough!) which said:

"I had not shoes and felt sorry for myself,
then I met a man who had no feet"

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:08 AM

Yeah, I see the sentiment, but that's not exactly a reason to be cheerful if you're suffering from depression. In fact, when you're clinically depressed you either don't care if the whole world lacks feet, or you care too much that everyone in the world lacks feet (thereby depressing yourself further because you can't stop the suffering), or you wish you could swap your depression for their lack of limbs. It may make me sound heartless, but when people told me "but why would you be depressed, you're healthy?" then I knew they didn't have a f*cking clue about what I was going through.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM

This thread made me think of a song which I always feel moved by whenever I hear it -


PETER GABRIEL - "Don't Give Up"

(Sung by Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush)


In this proud land we grew up strong
we were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail

no fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
but no one wants you when you lose

don't give up
'cos you have friends
don't give up
you're not beaten yet
don't give up
I know you can make it good

though I saw it all around
never thought I could be affected
thought that we'd be the last to go
it is so strange the way things turn

drove the night toward my home
the place that I was born, on the lakeside
as daylight broke, I saw the earth
the trees had burned down to the ground

don't give up
you still have us
don't give up
we don't need much of anything
don't give up
'cause somewhere there's a place
where we belong

rest your head
you worry too much
it's going to be alright
when times get rough
you can fall back on us
don't give up
please don't give up

'got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
going to stand on that bridge
keep my eyes down below
whatever may come
and whatever may go
that river's flowing
that river's flowing

moved on to another town
tried hard to settle down
for every job, so many men
so many men no-one needs

don't give up
'cause you have friends
don't give up
you're not the only one
don't give up
no reason to be ashamed
don't give up
you still have us
don't give up now
we're proud of who you are
don't give up
you know it's never been easy
don't give up
'cause I believe there's a place
there's a place where we belong


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jeanie
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM

Thank you, everyone, for all these contributions. Here is an old Anglo-Saxon (Old English) poem, "Deor", which contains one of my favourite refrains to see me through hard times:

Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg
That passed, so may this

You can read the whole poem in Modern and Old English here: DEOR and also hear it spoken in the beautiful sounds of Old English.

Here are a couple of poetry anthologies that I thoroughly recommend, and which see me through all the ups and downs:

"101 Poems that could save your life: An Anthology of Emotional First Aid", edited by Daisy Goodwin, publ. Harper Collins

"Staying Alive: real poems for unreal times", edited by Neil Astley, publ. Bloodaxe Books.

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM

These have been beautiful posts. Thanks- especially for the Tagore, Freda. It spoke to the heart.


Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM

Fibula: goosepimples...

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM

Hey, fibula: You are dead on about depression. For the most part, you aren't even thinking about anyone else. I know about that. But then, it's hard to know WHAT someone can say that can do a lot to help you out of a depression. It's a long process, and even though loving support means a lot, it's that lonesome valley you have to walk by yourself, most of the time.

That said, I still like the sentiment of the sign, whether it might seem simplistic or not. My Father always considered himself fortunate because he saw people around him who were worse of. He never complained. No matter what was happening in his life, when I'd ask him how he was doing, he'd always answer "Pretty good." I thought that was a great answer. He wasn't denying his problems. He was just seeing them in the perspective of the lives of others around him.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: flattop
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM

Not to steal spaw's thunder,
(presuming he still thunders)
I believe that fizz was the
ole english for fart.

Perhaps 'That passed, so may
this' refers to fizzing.

Ry Cooder sings one for or all you
depressed folkers.... The chorus
sums it up nicely.

RY COODER LYRICS
TROUBLE YOU CAN'T FOOL ME LYRICS
(f. knight/a. varnell)

trouble you can't fool me
I see you behind that tree
trouble you can't fool me
trying to get the ups on me
trouble you can't fool me
I see you behind that tree
you want to jump on me


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: flattop
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM

I believe it's on the same album as
the song 'The very thing that makes
her rich, make me poor.' Now that's
depressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: ranger1
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM

In January of 1998, I was a hairs-breadth away from killing myself. Nothing had gone right in my life for so long that it seemed like the sun had permanently gone behind a cloud. I was deep in debt, had recently gotten into a car accident (without insurance, I might add), was suffering from carpal tunnel in both wrists, had received an eviction notice from being several months behind on my rent and was working in an absolutely wretched, hellish job that came no-where near paying my basic living expenses. My dog saved my life. If I killed myself, who would take proper care of him? It was a tenuous thread, but I paused long enough to get to a friend's house and he kept me safe and helped give me the breathing space to find my way to my own sort of sanity and peace of mind. Depression is nothing to be taken lightly, but at the same time, those folks behind the cloud need to remember that they do have people who care about their continued existence.

John Donne said it very well:
Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions
"no man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death deminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Sorry about the lack of proper lines. Had to dig this out of my Heavy Thoughts Notebook, where it was very hastily scribbled.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:16 PM

Recently did a little dig through Hank Williams Sr.'s website - "We're still a'livin' so everything's OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: MAG
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:29 PM

except Hank lived suicidally -- as do so many.

Love 'em and let 'em go. There's a song about having children with that line.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM

Sung to Auld Ang Sang and your creditors.

Fuck you
Fuck you
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Why arn't there ANY gigs in the last week of February?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM

There is no bigger pain in the ass than some air head saying, "Oh, you shouldn't feel that way."
Anyone who has never been clinically depressed has no clue what it is. Listen, YOU SIMPLY DONT CARE. Now, where the hell are you going from there?
If you have never been depressed, you shouldn't even post here unless it's to ask a question.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM

Been there, Kendall.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Little Robyn
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM

I particularly like some of the words in Phil Coulter's Steal away - "We have to choose to win or lose, and it's time we started winning."
You don't have to suffer from clinical depression to feel sad or fed-up with the way your life is going. Just when you think things are getting better, something else happens and Bang! You're right back where you started. So sometimes we sing Hard Times but other times we'll sing Steal Away.

STEAL AWAY

CHORUS:
Steal away, Let's steal away, no reason left to stay.
For me and you, let's start anew, and darling steal away.

Let's steal away and chase our dreams
And hope they'll never find us.
The dreamy days, the empty nights,
We'll leave them all behind us.
CHORUS


We'll leave behind the city streets
The gloom and desolation
The rain, the cold, just growing old
God knows it's a hard old station.
CHORUS

We'll leave behind our memories
and make a new beginning
We have to choose to win or lose
And it's time we started winning.
CHORUS

Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM

"You don't have to suffer from clinical depression to feel sad or fed-up with the way your life is going. Just when you think things are getting better, something else happens and Bang! You're right back where you started."

True words, Little Robyn. And you don't have to suffer from clinical depression for people to ask you when you're going to "get over" whatever hit you.

In my case, probably never. I'll change, evolve, maybe emerge a new, wiser, more careworn person, but "get over it?" Nope.

BUT- I saw my first robin today. In February! In New Hampshire! After the coldest January since temperature records have been kept!

And songs and poems help in their way, too. When they don't pull me down.

Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:19 PM

........."If you have never been depressed, you shouldn't even post here unless it's to ask a question."......

Question. Does "here" mean Mudcat, or just this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:48 PM

Does it matter? The thread isn't strictly about depression anyway. I'd guess Kendall is/was having a bad day and fed up with of folks who have no idea where 'Depressed' is but are 100% sure they're qualified to give directions to a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

Well, I get what kendall means, and I know people are trying to help when they offer a kind of a "Pollyanna" response to clinical depression. It's not just that I'd like to punch Pollyana in her smug little face, it's also that you know that counting your blessings may put you leagues ahead of other peoples' suffering, but you just don't (or can't) care. But you do come out the other side, eventually. I was lucky to have someone talk me out of some really stupid (in retrospect) ideas, and I was fortunate enough to have a friend who would sit with me all night long on occasion. It's tilted the balance of our friendship, but we're getting back on track. The fear of it's still there though. I am so bloody terrified of ever feeling that way again.

Whether this thread is about depression, or misery, or grief, or suffering - whatever - it's totally possible to come out the other side. Just give it time.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM

Of course, there's the flip side of the coin to people who tell you to "get over it." (Not that anyone ever said that to me, and there aren't many people who are that insensitive.) There's the fear of not knowing what to say, or being greated by hostility when you're trying to be supportive that leads many people to say nothing. How many millions of people are sick in nursing homes, hospitals or Psychiatric wards and no one visits them because they "don't know what to say?"

What DO you say?

How about, I really care about you? Or better yet, if the person is receptive to it.. "I'm keeping you in prayer?" While there are times when you need to be alone, and times when you just aren't up to talking to anyone, nobody wants to feel like they've been forgotten or that no one cares about them.

Maybe the best thing to do is let people know that you care about them, and that you're there for them when they need to talk with you, whatever time of day or night it is. I still think that caring is good medicine. Sometimes people don't know how to express it very well.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: ranger1
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM

Sometimes, you don't need to hear someone say something. Sometimes you just need to be heard and not given advice or pity. Sometimes just a hug and knowing that there is someone who cares whether you live or die and who will just listen for a change is what really matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

There are conditions that cannot be reached by making meaningful sounds. Some minds can only be reached by physical connection, some solid communication like an object being passed back and forth, or by simple direct control.

You gotta deal with the person in front of you. Nothing else.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM

True, Amos and Ranger1. Today after church it became clear that several of us women were lingering in the sanctuary; within minutes we were holding each other and weeping out our sorrows- one's marriage is breaking apart, another just learned of the death of a friend at age 42 and another friend who is dying; another's sister just lost her husband suddenly; I was weepy over Byron- we just held each other and rocked and wept and gave each other love.

After lunch I visited an elder woman (age 89) from my church; she was hospitalized for pneumonia, was released too early, got herself up and about way too soon, fell and broke her elbow, and is due back for surgery this week. She is prone to moaning about her hard life. I don't know her well so she spent most of the visit talking about her husband, who died 10 years ago, and soon she was saying, "It's been a good life. A good life."

I realized that the impulse to visit her was serving us both- getting both outside our individual sorrows. I didn't tell her what I thought would make her better, I just sat with her for awhile.

I feel blessed after being with her. Blessed by the community of loving souls in my village and here on the Mudcat.

Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread asking for a little help as I was feeling very depressed. Many kind folks replied with little gold nuggets of advice, as I had asked for. I am gratefull to all who replied. I particularly remember two posts; Brucies with all the things people say to you, that he wrote in knowing jest, meant to kick start you and Sorchas with deep concern that I might do myself in. I believe that I replied to Brucie saying that he had given me the best laugh of the day, and to Sorcha saying that I was too much of a coward to try suicide.

Thanks Freda and I hope you didn't start this thread as a veiled call for help. 'Catter 'critters wrote from all over to give me a much needed lift. We would for you too.

Donada,
Julie


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:03 PM

I too have been close to suicide and prone to hiding from everything...and everyone...and each time it was a friend or a loved one (especially my Gramma) who said or did something to pull me out of the gutter...sometimes it was a song...or sometimes it was a poem...or even a joint...but I pulled out...and am still here today...

Yes, I still feel depression...I still feel a sadness that is never truly away...but I am not wallwoing in that mire...I keep myself away from it...by music...by hope...by dreams and by love...I refuse to let myself give into that darkness...I do have my love and my unborn baby to think about.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:57 PM

thanks Walking eagle, for your lovely thoughts.

no, right now, this thread was not for me. but what the original poem was, was just a description of bleakness. my idea, however the thread wanders, was just to use the poem to look at those feelings & acknowledge them.

it was not about changing them, overcoming them, because although those things are necessary and good, at the time that someone is entrenched in depression, change or a future is a theoretical concept which serves only to deny or ignore the current feelings.

"Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings."

I though the description of the big flightless bird was beautiful because it described, totally, blackness and bleakness which is a part of life sometimes.

i guess i wanted to acknowledge those bleak feelings that some people are feeling right now and observe them.

when anyone is sunk in it, that big flightless bird or black dog is very real.

freda
a big flighty bird..


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

When I look back at the time when I was hospitalized with a depression, I try to remember what brought me out of it. I suspect it's different for each person, depending on what brought you into iy in the first place. That makes it difficult to make any generalizations about what helps most. When I was hospitalized, I was just greatful that people came to visit me. I couldn't tell you what they said, because what was most important was that they came, and they showed their love for me. When I left the hospital, I stepped back into the same overwhelming world that broke me down, but I came out differently. I was taking the first steps toward loving myself, and I was ferocious about not letting anyone take that away from me. Maybe one of the basic ingredients about coming out of a depression is being able to go back into the same world that put you in it. Maybe the other prime ingredient is truly knowing how much others love you, and truly loving yourself.

Beyond that, I don't really know what to say because in the long run, all I really know is me, and it took me many, many years to get to know myself. I don't know what it's like to lose someone you were deeply in love with. I don't know what it's like to go blind, or lose a leg. Unfortunately, that knowledge doesn't come to you unless it happens to you.

The only other thing I think I know is that it's pretty much impossible to come out of a depression by yourself. It's definitely not a "pull yourself up by the boot straps" experience. I will never forget the kindness that friends and family showed me. That's why it's so important for us in here to express our love and support for each other.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:19 AM

time to think about this one again..


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

Thanks for refreshing this, GUEST. There have been some good threads on this subject, for those who want to find them. Hard to do when you're depressed, though. It takes too much energy..so thanks again for bringing this one back..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM

When I'm depressed I just want to be left the hell alone. This is sometimes hard for people around me to understand. It isn't anything personal against them, I just need a little space to rest, is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM

Kim, there are different levels of depression. If it's only something that happens on occasion, and your way of dealing with it is by being left alone, that's just fine, and people need to learn to respect that wish.

But severe depression is something quite different, and for those people, it often helps to just be able to write what they're going through here. It feels safe because it's anonymous, but at the same time, there are lots of folks about who have been through similiar periods, and can sometimes offer much needed guidance.

Space to rest is a good thing...but sleeping for weeks at a time would indicate a far more difficult problem. So just know yourself well enough to be able to see the difference, yes?..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:49 AM

Ellen, I know that. I have been through it most of my life and been treated for it, and posted about it often on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM

One of the things that separates youth from adulthood is the realization that the mood you are in is not the one you are stuck in for life. Very young children have this in spades: I often think the whole role of adults with children is to keep saying: this emotion will pass. When you get a bit older, this descent into a mood can deepen, and then you are really stuck, because you can see further, extrapolate more, and it all looks bleak ahead. In my experience, a number of youth suicides came from that -- a feeling that the valley they were in was never going to end. And there is nothing you can say, shouting from the neighbouring hills, overlooking other, maybe better landscapes in the distance, that will be of much use to anyone in that valley.

I remember one really bright student came in to see me once and he said: "Not only is the universe meaningless, but if it is, then my depression is meaningless, too, can there be anything more pathetic, what are we doing here?". Happily he survived, but I always remember that acid bath of withering uselessness that he articulated. I remember some theologian somewhere once said: "This is all God has given us to work with, but couldn't He have given us just a little more light, would it have been so bad?"

yours,

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM

Ah, sorry KimC. I didn't realize you had posted often before on this. I didn't mean to sound pompous or knowing more than anyone else, though I've certainly been down that road on and off all my life.

I hope this is not one of those moments when you're going through it, but if you are...much luck and good energy coming your way...(and I'm waaay too far away to bug you with anything more, and never would in any case!)..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM

Here is another Tagore one..
(note - "Shey" in Bengali can mean either he or she; Maya means illusion)


At dawn shey departed
My mind tried to console me -
" Everything is Maya".
Angrily I replied:
"Here's this sewing box on the table,
that flower-pot on the terrace,
this monogrammed hand-fan on the bed---
all these are real."

My mind said: "Yet, think again."
I rejoined: " You better stop.
Look at this storybook,
the hairpin halfway amongst its leaves,
signaling the rest is unread;
if all these things are "Maya",
then why should "shey" be more unreal?"


My mind becomes silent.
A friend arrived and says:
"That which is good is real
it is never non-existent;
entire world preserves and cherishes it its chest
like a precious jewel in a necklace."


I replied in anger: "How do you know?
Is a body not good? Where did that body go?"

Like a small boy in a rage hitting his mother,
I began to strike at everything in this world
that gave me shelter.
And I screamed:" The world is treacherous."

Suddenly, I was startled.
It seemed like someone admonished me :" You- ungrateful ! "

I looked at the crescent moon
hidden behind the tamarisk tree outside my window.
As if the dear departed one is smiling
and playing hide-and-seek with me.

From the depth of darkness punctuated by scattered stars
came a rebuke: "when I let you grasp me you call it an deception,
and yet when I remain concealed,
why do you hold on to your faith in me with such conviction?"



Translated from: "Ungrateful Sorrow (Grief)" by: Rabindranath Thakur (Tagore)


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

Sure he could have; but the light we invent ourselves means more to us. The worst thing abou depression is that it centers around having no causation and authorship. This is not "true", of course, but when you are sitting in it, true is not a concern. What matters is the burning feeling of dark hopeless choiceless ineptitude. Busting out of that can be as simple as tearing off down the road until winded, or setting out to finsih things left unfinsihed--or itcan be as complex as lengthy psychiatric dances and pharmaceutical cornucopiae...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

What use is an invented light, if the power source is a dynamo churning in pitiless darkness? (As Lucy van Pelt once remarked: "You stupid darkness!!!)

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

Mind you, I've never messed with psychiatric paraphrenalia and wouldn't be paid to. I was merely commenting on the potential for complexity inherent in depression. And BTW what is the opposite of "depressed"? Released? Upsprung? Outflung? Undamped? Resurgent?

Anyway, I notice that the universe appears simpler by far when resurgent, or whatever the word is, than when depressed.

A
A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:23 PM

Ah, no -- "invented" should read "created from whole cloth". Self-compassion (and reverence for your own Creative will) will take you much further than any brand of externality, pitiless or caring. In fact, I would hazard to say that until compassion for Who you are is complete, you will never even touch God, or anyone of that ilk. :>) Expecting a physical universe to provide you with spiritual qualities is like asking a flawed Catholic priest how to deal with adolescent sexuality. You're bound to be betrayed, but then, what did you expect? But it would be foolish to conclude from that that all help is betrayal.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Thanks Ellen, actually I'm good right now! A week's vacation in Jamaica helped a lot. And the daily yoga hasn't hurt any, either. :-)

I have a good friend, who has worse bouts of depression than I do. We're sort of each other's support group. He describes it this way: you're walking along, everything's just fine, then all of a sudden you get hit in the face with a shovel.

For me, it's all or nothing. Everything's great, or everything sucks. And when it sucks, it sucks REALLY bad. The last time I got the shovel in the face was a few weeks ago when I felt really ganged up on at work. So I grumped around for a few days, and everything sucked, and then I decided to start looking for another job when I got back from my vacation.

So I'm back now, and I've applied for a job at the university where I hope to be accepted for graduate school. If I get the job, I get a great reduction in tuition. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: SueB
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

Psychiatric Paraphernalia? Sounds like a good name for a rock group...

What is psychiatric paraphernalia, again?

I know about two kinds of depression. The one where you slog forever through deep mud. The other one which is like quicksand.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

Best of luck, Kim...may no shovels be aimed your way for a goodly while!..xx.e

PS-Amos, I'm afraid you've lost me again..;-?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,darkriver (no cookie)
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:10 AM

"Some also have wished that the next way to their Father's house were here,
that they might be troubled no more with either hills or mountains to go over;
but the way is the way, and there is an end."

--John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress, Part 2, Stage 5


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Mudlark
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:40 AM

A really thoughtful thread...one that should be renewed every month or so if it falls off the list. Sometimes it's helpful just to read what others have to say, to get a peek into other darknesses.

It is a mistake to believe that the depressed and/or grieving need to be talked to in some special way. "What can I say?" seems like the wrong question. Often there is nothing TO say, but listening, being present, being sensitive to the clues given as to what's needed, letting the person know it's OK for them to feel what they feel...all may be more helpful.

Clinical depression needs support and, often, medical intervention. Grief, however, often simply needs release. And there are times when even loners need a witness to that grief. I tend to go to ground when in emotional turmoil. Even so, I truly appreciate the friends who just let me cry when I needed to. Sometimes it takes speaking your grief to someone to bring that release.

Thanks, Freda, for starting this thread, and thanks to all who participate in it.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:49 AM

thanks, mudlark, you got the idea of this thread. It was not so much to say, don't feel like this, or, change your behaviour, it was to acknowledge those feelings, which come occasionally, pay a trip, and at some point fly away (like that big flightless bird in the first poem).

grief,hurt and pain pay their visits, as do other emotions.

i have copied some of the other poems or songs that people have added to this thread, to my poetry collection.

My youngest daughter, who I love very much, is going away tomorrow, to live in another country, for a while or maybe for a long time. It was good to re read this thread again.

x freda


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: SueB
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

I don't know if this is appropriate at this juncture or inappropriate, but it started singing itself in my head as I was reading the last couple of posts.

All the good times are past and gone
All the good times are over
All the good times are past and gone
Little darling don't you weep no more


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:28 PM

Sue B:

I took it another way in a song I wrote a long time ago:

"For the good old days are still to come
Though the hard times are not over
For we must wear that thorny crown
To walk the fields of clover."

How many people were bitching their heads off, not realizing that they were in the good times? As far as I'm concerned, today is the good old days, until tomorrow. And then it will be tomorrow.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM

Interventions don't always have to be medical; sometimes just re-engaging the individual in simple, comprehensible successes of some little sort can do a great deal.

Freda, my condolences -- my own daughter is away at college and it gets very blue when we don't hear from her sometimes. But she's doing fine and so we just bite our lips and keep marching.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Bex McK
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM

Nothing like children to bring you joy and break your heart, eh? I have been struggling with postnatal depression, and what makes me angrier than anything else is when people try to cheer me up by saying something like, "But you've got a nice house, a beautiful son, a loving husband, and a good life. What have you got to be depressed about?" That just makes it all feel even worse.

I find singing helps like nothing else, and what really does it for me just now is singing harmony on some of the old timey gospel songs with my band. It's one of the most intensely uplifting feelings-- which is a little odd for me because I'm not a believer. But somehow the act of singing these songs can pierce through that little wall I have around me when I am depressed. Maybe it's just that singing harmonies with other people requires a kind of physical and emotional closeness that you don't always get elsewhere. But there's a magic in those songs too-- something that tells you that it's not unnatural to feel the way you do. I guess it's no accident that music and religion are so closely entwined.

Anyway-- yeah, good thread.
B


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:29 AM

The magic in the singing is exactly what I was talking about -- I have waded through some heavy depressive moods by hugging my ole Dreadnought and singing my voice out.

Other get the same lift from other simple acts of accomplishment -- painitng, for example, or writing something, or putting something to rights that is awry.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Mudlark
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM

I agree, singing is wonderful therapy, if you can muster the energy for it. Another thing I like about making music is that it makes me feel ageless...not young, not old...it's not about age at all, a pleasant escape from time's reality!

Bex, I agree entirely that being told to cheer up because, in effect, you have nothing to be sad about, is rubbish, as jOhn would say. The no shoes, no feet parable was one my mother was overfond of quoting. To get her naggy voice out of my head I wrote the following:

ON THE LACK OF SHOES, AND FEET

My mother always said to me
When I brought her my tales of woe
No shoes?   Or no feet at all...
Which row would you choose to hoe?

I understood the metaphor
But it always seemed to me
Her rote reply was not well thought
For it begged the question, i.e.

Why should a man who has no shoes
Perhaps no food or heat
Feel better about his lowly plight
Because he retains his feet?

Is sympathy so hard to spare
So thin upon the ground
That for a man who has no shoes
No compassion can be found?

If heat and shelter can't be had
In bitter winter cold
A man sans shoes soon finds himself
Sans feet, if truth be told.

And now what good is compassion?
Now that sympathy is much to late?
For once the feet are truly gone
He must live out his crippled fate

Decorum preserved, complacency assured
The righteous now can sigh
"Oh no, how dreadful for you, dear"
Then on their own two feet walk by

How much better to show sympathy
Shoes don't cost that much
How much better to solve that problem
Than to have to supply a crutch

I suspect it's because cheap footwear
Is well within our scope
So puts the onus on us, then,
To help the shoeless cope.

But hospitals are so costly
Surely no one can be expected
To pony up a surgeon's fee.
And so the threat is deflected

Of having to give up something
That might cost us in some way
Thus the unshod can be justly ignored
And there is only the devil to pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Pistachio
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

Having some one listen, letting the thoughts out, unravelling the puzzle of whatever is in doubt

There are so many facets to depression - each sufferer has their own unique definition and depth
A friend has twice delved deep into depression and is aware of a huge feeling of failure. Fortunately he knows when he is on his way down and has learnt to take a step back, find somewhere to level out on while he catches sight of his new route up the ever-sinking mountain of work.
Watching him, being there for him and offering sometimes silent support is what I know I can do.
Many have mentioned 'being there, letting someone know you care, letting them cry out loud. That hand on their shoulder will so often be just the comfort needed.
A friend had therapy that made her face old demons before sending her out on the road to recovery, by digging into her past she laid old ghosts and learnt to put the trouble behind her.
A large dose of friendship, support, and the time to listen maybe all that is required.
So much better to get in touch/keep in touch than to think "if only I had"? too late!

Let someone know You care!

On re-reading I worry that this sounds a bit twee but I suppose we all talk from our varied experieces and this Mudcat therapy is about sharing thoughts/problems/songs/poems.I 'm sure that somewhere out there all the words make a difference. Good wishes,
H.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

i bleieve the opposite of depression is manic.

the song of amergin tends to uplift me...it tells me i am a part of everything...and everything is a part of me.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:06 AM

Bex, a friend had post natal depression and I saw what she went through. I sympathise and understand what you are going through.

gospel music does it for me too, and altho I'm not a Christian I find it the most powerful, moving, uplifting music. I love it. with music like that i dont care who is what religion anyway, i would happily sit in a Christian church to hear it and sing it.

we have some good singers at some of our singing sessions. on a good night, with lots of harmonies happening, its just magic. same with singing in a choir. singing with other people is like being a bee in a swarm, making honey - you're all vibrating and the sound is vibrating around and through you all. its so unifying,and relaxing, i love it.

best wishes

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:46 PM

I know I'm going to regret sending this, but maybe it'll help someone… I never listen to music anymore. I can't even recall the last time I felt a surge of optimism.

"i bleieve the opposite of depression is manic"

That's like saying the opposite of down is the twilight zone… well I give you that could be the answer in a short textbook rendition. But manic states are hardly the opposite of depression. And of course, I can only speak of my own experience herein. But it seems to be a common misconception. The reality is that you can exist for months in a clinically depressed state, then slowly and imperceptibly drift into a manic state. Sometimes, if you're lucky you get to a few hours, maybe day or two if you're real lucky, of a euphoric state – which you believe is normal. You're focused and feel great. You stay to yourself its finally over and I'm normal. I'm ok. I'm like everyone else. I'm well again! Then the euphoric state transforms into something else… You can't sleep for 5, 6, 7 days at a stretch. You're consumed by fear and loathing. And you have no idea of what or why. You're thoughts race far ahead of your ability to verbalize them. Anxiety to the max. Booze, if you're so inclined and you probably are, gives you temporary relief and allows you to catch a few hours sleep so you can go to work. Eventually, you drift back down to another long black winter. You're sure you are going to die soon but you haven't a clue what of. You don't know what's wrong…

Manic depression, most commonly type 1 bi-polar is hard to diagnose in the extreme and even harder to treat. And there is no cure. You can go for a while hiding it from yourself, co-workers, friends and even your family. For quit a long while. You learn tricks. Concentrate. Concentrate. Concentrate. Don't let anyone see how you feel. You walk a very long tight rope. But eventually, the frequency and magnitude of the cycles will overcome you're abilities and you'll fall hard. Jail time for a DWI is a good first wake-up. Then there's loss of friends, career and bankruptcy. All are almost inevitable. If you're lucky, and have a good spouse and family (as I do) they'll stand with you. They have it too. Forget everyone else, in-laws included. They'll bail quick. And if you don't have anyone YOU ARE SCREWED.

You have to go thru a mess of extreme manic phases before you might recognize that all this isn't your typical clinical depression (or some major flaw in your 'weakling' personality). At first I though my manic episodes were just too much worrying. So you compensate with drinking. Then as you get worse, you might believe, as I did, that you're caught in some sort of post flu delirium – for weeks. You can feel is physically. You're sure of it, because you experience the physical and mental symptoms. Aching mucles, headaches you name it. And the delirium is something else – visions. A long state where you're not sleeping or awake. You're on your feet and you're walking on air. You feel like shit and you can't think. All you know is you're sure your going to die, you're scared and above all, you have to hide it.

Eventually you come to understand what you are made to understand. This is NOT going away. Read up on it before going to the Doctor. Because they (most likely) won't anything. At best, you are some bad impersonation of some condition they once read about in a college text book. One actually just said to me, "well you're a drunk. Stop drinking". You're on your own. By now, if you are fortunate enough to have access to medical help, be prepared to educate him/her. Read-up to argue your case. Because you appear healthy and all your vitals are intact. They'll be sure your faking something for some reason. And they treat REAL illnesses all day long. You have to find the right person. There might be a handful of doctors in the world who have some decent insight, do you really believe you're doc is going to be one of them?

They hand out Prozac and other anti-depressants like candy. These so called miracle drugs are a very bad joke for bi-polars. Remember, you go through extended clinical depression and they may seem to help -if you find one you can live with. But you're shooting at a moving target. Eventually you'll hit a manic state and the anti-depressants will multiply the effects in spades – they may even trigger an extreme manic state. Above all, never drink and take Prozac or whatever (and yes, I know they all say not to drink and take meds, but manic depressives have usually been self-medicating with alcohol for years. They are in denial, it's the ONLY thing that has ever help them. And a good doctor should know that)… there is no telling what you might do if you hit a manic state, while drunk and on Prozac. It is an absolutely deadly combination. Take it from one who knows… I could tell you harrowing stories, but it's besides the point and I'm already hogging up too many bytes.

If you're around fifty and you've had PTSD for say 30 years – untreated, there seems to be a high correlation to becoming bi-polar. Just what you needed! Five plus years now. I've tried everything for extended and controlled periods. There is no miracle drug. They make you feel different but no better. And the side effects are horrendous. The people who market and distribute that junk ought to have to take some first themselves. That stuff is all just snake oil. Its fake. The only thing that I've seen that helps is a mild anti-anxiety med. Then you just concentrate. Concentrate. Concentrate. Overcome it with your mind – a moment at a time.

I know there are a lot of worse things out there. But having this does not exclude the other stuff. It's bad icing on the cake. And to anyone who might say, just shoot yourself – well I sat on a lonely New Mexico hill side once with my gun to my head. But I couldn't do that to my family. Maybe you should shoot yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Mudlark
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:12 PM

Dear Guest,Pedro...You describe your state very well, and by so doing may be very helpful to someone out there suffering likewise. I think there are a lot of conditions which conventional medicine, allopathic medicine, hasn't a clue how to treat. I certainly agree with you about all the drugs that are handed out like candy. I realize docs may sieze upon this supposed easy quick fix as they really have nothing else to offer. But if drugs weren't relied upon so heavily, perhaps more and better research could find better means of coping. I'm glad to know that you do have someone who understands and supports you. Take care, and best wishes...

Nancy


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:59 PM

Thanks Nancy - I agree, hopefully there are some big minds out there in the medical world who realize that better strategies are needed.
My best wishes to you as well... and thanks for the kind words.

Pedro


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: harpgirl
Date: 04 May 04 - 05:21 PM

Pedro, your description of Bi-polar I disorder is extraordinarily similar to so many other individuals with the problem. You are doing many others a service with your deescription. But why have you not found the right combination of medications for your problem? Lithium really is very helpful. Have you not read Kay Redfield Jamison's books and research?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 04 May 04 - 06:07 PM

Amos - The opposite of depression is contentment. Manic is the other extreme that isn't very healthy.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:38 PM

Harpgirl; I have tried lith, 3 different times. Alone and combined with other stuff and for long periods. I dosn't work for everyone and I guess I'm one of them. To me, ALL that stuff is designed to beat you down and turn your brain into mush - right where the docs want ya (or where they think you are better off anyway). The side-effects are huge and untenable (for me)...

Glad to hear you think the description could be of some value. I cringed to log back on and look at this. Now I feel better (about it). And that doesn't happen much anymore...

To me, half the battle is realizing what you have - and as you said - the description is (and should be) similar to other cases. But every case is different too. I'm pretty certain I have now drifed into what's considered to be a "mixed state" where you are manic and depressive at the same time (most of the time)- so much for the two being opposites huh?

Once you understand the dynamics and know what to expect, it is possible to heal yourself well past the point where meds would be effective, at least for me, but maybe I'm lucky. I don't know. But I still long for that majic potent too. That's my current opinion and strategy anyway and I'm not recommending that anyone else try it - certainly and at least not iniatially. In fact, I'm not recommending anything. This was just to tell how easily clinical depression can be mistaken for what's really bi-polar (and clinical depression for a good case of the blues for that matter - but where to draw the line???). And its hugely important to identify what you have. Lord knows its hard enough just to admit you're depressed and need help to begin with. That's what I've learned. And every case is different and I have no doubt many will find something they are tolorant to. The main thing is knowing. Its a long journey.

No I haven't read Jamison's book as yet. Believe it or not, I came across a discussion of it on the tube one night this past winter - and I wrote down her name and then lost the note a few days later. Thanks for the reminder.
Best wishes, P


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Gervase
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:35 PM

When times is hard, I find myself humming a little number
from Dick Greenhaus.
Music does it for me every time, though. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the blackest of dogs can be dispelled with a good sing. Gets me some strange looks at traffic lights, but what the heck.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 06 May 04 - 02:48 AM

Gervase;
Well, seems you certainly know how to throw the blade. But why do you bother with such an easy target? Oh yeah, I think I know. You always wait 'til someone's back is turned.

Ladies and gentleman, allow me to introduce the original cyber-bully. If he doesn't like what you're talking about - and especially if you're not a REGISTERED MEMBER - then YOU ARE DISMISSED. This is his turf, he's got knives and he's not afraid to use 'em!

Gervase, I ain't going anywhere because you say to - just who the hell do you think you are? I'm very serious. Now, I'm putting YOU to work. Explain yourself. And make it good. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I still love a good joke.

And thanks so much for your empathetic and intelligent input. You're a funny guy too.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Gervase
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:52 AM

Not throwing the blade at all, Pedro. And if any blade hit home and hurt, I apologise. I meant what I said, in that I usually manage to keep the black dog of depression at bay with music. Literature I tend to avoid, as most of my favourite works tend towards the maudlin, and don't help life the spirits, and comedy writing barely appeals when I'm feeling good, and comes across as particularly leaden when I'm feeling down.
And I'm afraid I have foudn myself singing Dick's song when I'm down - the Victorian bathos of it, coupled with the schoolboyish scatology, do make me smile.
But, as many have said in this thread, there's no panacea for depression, and one person's particular remedy can clearly be offensive to another.
Personally I would avoid any chemical aids, both proscribed and prescribed. My own experience is that they all tilt the brain's chemistry to such an extent that, although the immediate, almost physical effects of the depression are relieved, other problems kick in - things like a change of personality, a loss of motivation and a feeling of a lead weight pressing down on the consciousness.
To repeat - there is no universal cure, but laughter, song and good companionship come closest.
And apologies again if any feelings were hurt. I know depression makes minor hurts seem like greater blows, and perhaps I should have registered that before posting, But I too was being very serious. If you love a good joke, go out and collect and share as many as possible. The best jokes are a different take on the human condition and can be very cathartic.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:08 PM

Ahhhggg, Gervase, Looks like it is ME who has some explaining to do AND apologizing… I'm pretty inexperienced at this stuff - this has been my first foray in internet chat. I happened upon this place (mudcat) due to another passing trivial interest just recently - then I saw this thread too, read it and said to myself what's there to lose... I have something to contribute (in the talking can be good therapy mood). But with very mixed feelings about it as well. So it went. Then I saw your post. I mulled over it. I hit the "number" link. I was astonished and wasn't sure what to make of it. I was pretty certain I'd been had ("I" not "we" – paranoia). I went back and forth between the lyrics and post and back and forth some more. At some point, I saw the note at the bottom of the lyrics - which seemed to say "go away, you're a bad joke and I don't want people like you around". I though who, why would anyone do such a thing? So I started reading your posts to various threads dating way back to glean some insight. And I said, Jesus, this guy is a major intellect, has all kinds of interests and knowledge. A professional writer to boot. He has got his shit together big time. And a wit like a stiletto. Plus there were your negative references to non-members... I concluded, this is a very smart prick, who's got this axe to grind – a major chip and all that. Must go around runnin' numbers on people all the time. A totally intolerant character. A big part of me said DO NOT tangle with this guy. You are way out classed. But I'm getting singled out. Do I just fold, or craft some kind of response? The rest is history. A humiliating misunderstanding on my part to say the least. I was delighted (an relieved) at your reply, even as it became apparent that I'd just made a total ass out of myself. I'd expected an absolutely scathing indictment. I'd braced myself for it and had already decided, whatever he says - and it ain't going to be nice, just let it be. Let him reveal what he is. Now I'm in the unexpected position of finding I agree with you on so many levels and points that I can't believe this happened. That was a super cool response - and way better than I deserved. I think this is why so may wars rage on this planet, bad communication, jumping to false conclusions... I'll be way more careful in the future. Thanks and all the best to you my friend, Pedro

*If I hear a good one, I'll let ya know…


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: akenaton
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:37 PM

I have read that Scotlands greatest poet Robert Burns was a sufferer from depression.
In his most famous poem "To a mouse" this is hinted at. He finishes his address to the mouses' misfortunes with the words....


      "But thou art blessed compared wi' me,
       the present only,toucheth thee.
       While I, weary, backwards, cast ma' ee,
       on prospects drear.
       And forward,tho' a canna see.
       I guess and fear."


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: JennyO
Date: 07 May 04 - 01:29 AM

I do believe music is a great healer, and I'm glad the misunderstanding between Gervase and Pedro seems sorted. Pedro, if you stick around you might like to consider becoming a member. As a member you can send and receive personal messages (PM's), as well as other benefits. There are lots of very supportive people in this community. I know from experience.

Meanwhile, here's one I always enjoy when I need cheering up:


The Galaxy Song - From Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life"

(spoken)

Whenever life gets you down, Mrs. Brown,
And things seem hard, or tough,
And people are stupid, obnoxious, or daft,
And you feel that you've had quite enough...

(sung)

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

(waltz)

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

Click for a page with the music files if you want to listen to the song

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 04 - 12:43 PM

Thanks for the super posts everyone. Jenny that was a neat one. Appreciate the invite. Was thinking I might join-up. But I'm filled with regret. Seems I always regret all my actions and inactions . Now mudcat is no exception. I should have read, read, read. Learned first how to act and operate at some level of perfection. instead jumping in and posting big empty hot air balloons. I should by now have some wisdom. I feel like a child. I blew it. No excuse. This is anonymous, yet I feel the vibes to my soul… I apologize to everyone. I've contributed nothing but negativity. This has stirred a storm in my mind. I can't do this. If someone has the power out there, please delete all my posts. Time obscures all though. Sorry. P


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: JennyO
Date: 07 May 04 - 02:05 PM

GUEST, Pedro, if we all waited till we had "learned first how to act and operate at some level of perfection" this place would be deserted.

None of us is perfect, so give yourself a break. Stick around for a while, and if and when you feel like it, consider becoming a member.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 07 May 04 - 05:59 PM

Pedro:

Welcome to the Mudcat Cafe, senor! We're all a little bit nuts, but if you don't mind that you're more than welcome, and you sound like the kind of honest wit we need more of. Sign up and come back as often as you like.

You're lucky to cross swords with Gervase who is a fine fellow and decent, as you see. If it had been one of our shitheads you had jumped at, you would have had a tussle on your hands, but it looks from your ready answers that you would have done fine in any case. But, really, most all our folks are decent and you can probably get by bieng less careful, rather than more careful, just relaxing and saying how it really seems. Once you hit your rhythm, you'll be a reg'l'ar in no time.

Welcome again,


A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: harpgirl
Date: 07 May 04 - 06:27 PM

well, Pedro you have just said as I look back that the only thing that helps is a mild anti-anxiety agent. So if you have your lorazepam and a good therapist, you can weather the depressions that you know are inevitable and since you refuse anything else such as a mood stabilizer or some SSRI that makes you feel worse, you can keep keep from being so manic that you lose touch with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 08 May 04 - 07:56 AM

GOOD DAYS COMING

Everything changes, the wheel
of the law turns without pause.

After the rain, good weather.

In the wink of an eye

The universe throws off
its muddy cloths.

For ten thousand miles
the landscape

Spreads out like
a beautiful brocade.

Gentle sunshine.
Light breezes. Smiling flowers,

Hang in the trees, amongst the
sparkling leaves,

All the birds sing at once.

Men and animals rise up reborn.

What could be more natural?

After sorrow comes happiness


by Kenneth Rexroth


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Gervase
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:35 AM

Pedro,

No, yuo certainly haven't contributed nothing save negativity - you've opened eyes and ears in other people and made us all think. Welcome to this place, and make of it what you will. Chill out and stay - you've got stuff to contribute, so join a group of friends who sometimes argue but who (mostly) want the world to be a better place. And thank you for your kind words, undeserved though they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,MOAB
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:11 PM

refresh, refresh, refresh!


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:53 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 06:19 PM

Deficient contact with reality is called mania.
Excessive contact with reality is called depression.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:16 PM

Excessive contact with reality is not depressing unless it is enforced without the aware will to face what Is.

In fact, the deficiency of that good will is the cognitive source of depression.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 10:39 PM

We Are Going

They came in to the little town
A semi-naked band subdued and silent
All that remained of their tribe.
They came here to the place of their old bora ground
Where now the many white men hurry about like ants.
Notice of the estate agent reads: 'Rubbish May Be Tipped Here'.
Now it half covers the traces of the old bora ring.
'We are as strangers here now, but the white tribe are the strangers.
We belong here, we are of the old ways.
We are the corroboree and the bora ground,
We are the old ceremonies, the laws of the elders.
We are the wonder tales of Dream Time, the tribal legends told.
We are the past, the hunts and the laughing games, the wandering camp fires.
We are the lightening bolt over Gaphembah Hill
Quick and terrible,
And the Thunderer after him, that loud fellow.
We are the quiet daybreak paling the dark lagoon.
We are the shadow-ghosts creeping back as the camp fires burn low.
We are nature and the past, all the old ways
Gone now and scattered.
The scrubs are gone, the hunting and the laughter.
The eagle is gone, the emu and the kangaroo are gone from this place.
The bora ring is gone.
The corroboree is gone.
And we are going.'

Oodgeroo Noonuccal


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:14 AM

The scariest feeling is when you think you might be getting dragged back down, because I don't think I can ever handle going through that again. Here's hoping that everyone else hanging on by their fingertips can inch their way up out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 10:41 AM

90 messages on this thread?

Blimey, the song's only got a couple of verses...


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: jeffp
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:12 AM

Ah, but our songs have many verses; some good, some bad, some happy, some sad.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 06:17 AM

refresh


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 08:16 AM

I'm beginning to understand that down is normal, just as up is normal while it is happening. What I used to think was that up was normal and down was devient. But this is life, just this: ups, downs, crazy awful unexpected tragedies, delightful unexpected joys, lots of struggle, while we reach out for help and also (when we are able, when we are strong enough) reach out to help, or just to make contact, to say, "I'm here,"-
It's about taking each day, each up, each down, accepting, going through the emotions, loving our fellow creatures, being grateful.

I didn't say that the way I wanted to, but it's about where I am on the learning curve right now.

May 2005 treat us gently. And when it doesn't, may we have love and support to carry us through.

Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 04 - 02:00 PM

Beautifully put, Allison. Thank you. Whenever we reach out to help - as you just did - we ourselves become stronger, more peaceful, and happier.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Mar 05 - 11:31 PM

There is so much to be sad about in the world now. On personal national, and international levels..

I am still grieving the lost in November 2004 of a very dear siter/friend who was closer to me than even my twin sister was. And I know that the depression I am feeling is partly because we are approaching the celebration of the Easter holiday that symbolizes resurrection...

So I decided to go looking for inactive threads that might speak to this mood or phase that I find myself in..

And I found this thread.

I thank all those who have posted here. The other poems included on this thread reminded me of the words to "Desiderata". And the words to Desiderata reminded me that I had made it through other difficult times by holding on and making it through-one day at a time.

I appreciate all the new cyberspace friends that I am making along the way. Your interaction and words have helped more than you will ever know.
Azizi
   
****

DESIDERATA
Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain and bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.


Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.


Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.


You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.


Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.


With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

[Max Ehrmann, Desiderata, Copyright 1952]


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:36 AM

I find certain pieces of music assist in hauling me out of the big blues bag of a morning. One of my faves is an album that is exactly 60 minutes long. Of a black Alaska morn it is worth several thousand foot candles:

Bonepony: Stomp Revival


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:04 PM

Thanks for reviving this, Azizi. This will be my second Easter without my best-beloved and although new love and light are showing promises of spring, my heart grieves freshly for the greatest loss I've ever known.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:39 PM

Hey, Allison... comfort and prayers rise up for you. And may the joy of your memories soften the loss..

For you know it, it will be NOMAD!

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 12:51 PM

The 10tth post of this thread will contain no whining.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 09:24 PM

Refresh...


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM

i started this thread for a friend. sometimes friends are an excuse to say something you need to hear yourself .. glad you have revived it, azizi. right now my life is quite peaceful, but i have had some intense moments over the last year. what helps most is other people - it has been good to read some of the posts here.

mudcat can provide so much. and its not the website - its the people in there!

oops, now I'm getting all slushy too, lynne!

keep those tears, songs, thoughts a flowin'!


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 10:12 AM

Bonepony: Stomp Revival

I've been known to turn "Poor Boy Blues" up loud enough to make the walls shake.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Liz the Squeak
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:20 PM

I do the same with several songs.... at the moment, it's 'She weighs 16 stone', by Steel Bunny. Ironic really, as I just found out that Hazel Absalom, one of the singers from SB died in Feb.

My times aren't that hard at the moment, but that black dog is just waiting round the corner.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Dec 06 - 11:28 PM

as Jerry said, "The good thing about this cafe is so many of us have been down that same dark road. Sometimes we can give encouragement, just because we've been through it."

seems like a good time for this thread again!

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: gecko
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 02:31 AM

I came across this thread quite by accident but am so glad I did. Many posts, but particularly those from Pedro seemed to be speaking just to me - however I'm also reminded that though I am in a level place right now, that black pit is always there, just waiting. My mantra for the bad times is that 'this too, will pass', just have to hang on and try to keep a fingernail hold on sanity. I know that I'm coming out of it when my thoughts thankfully turn away from me, me, me and begin to encompass the world again and the loving people in it, without whose help and support I would be lost.

I believe the looming season of supposedly 'festive cheer' will plunge many sufferers into deep depression and perhaps the most Christmassy and kindly deed we can perform is to make sure our friends know that we care about them.

YIU

gecko


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Mudcat time: 15 May 10:31 AM EDT

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