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BS: for those going through Hard Times

GUEST,freda underhill 26 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM
Peace 26 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 26 Feb 04 - 08:53 PM
bengi 26 Feb 04 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 26 Feb 04 - 09:56 PM
Bobert 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM
LadyJean 26 Feb 04 - 11:10 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 26 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 27 Feb 04 - 07:40 AM
Fibula Mattock 27 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM
Fibula Mattock 27 Feb 04 - 10:08 AM
JennyO 27 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM
Jeanie 27 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 27 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM
Noreen 27 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 27 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM
flattop 27 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM
flattop 27 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM
ranger1 27 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM
SINSULL 27 Feb 04 - 09:16 PM
MAG 27 Feb 04 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 27 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM
kendall 28 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 28 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM
Little Robyn 28 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 28 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 04 - 08:19 PM
Jeri 28 Feb 04 - 08:48 PM
Fibula Mattock 29 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM
ranger1 29 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM
Amos 29 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 29 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM
Walking Eagle 29 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM
Amergin 29 Feb 04 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,freda 29 Feb 04 - 07:57 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM
GUEST 27 Apr 04 - 10:19 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM
Kim C 27 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM
Kim C 27 Apr 04 - 10:49 AM
Peter T. 27 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM
Ellenpoly 27 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM
freda underhill 27 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM
Amos 27 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM
Peter T. 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM
Amos 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

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Subject: BS: thoughts on Hard Times
From: GUEST,freda underhill
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:28 PM

a couple of Catters are having a bad time right now. sometimes no amount of positive words, no matter how well intended, from someone else, can change that. but it can be good to know that others have been there too, and understand. here is a powerful poem by the Indian poet, rabindranath tagore, on the topic of - yes, Hard Times.


HARD TIMES

Music is silenced, the dark descending slowly
Has stripped unending skies of all companions.
Weariness grips your limbs and within the locked horizons
Dumbly ring the bells of hugely gathering fears.
Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

It's not melodious woodlands but the leaps and falls
Of an ocean's drowsy booming,
Not a grove bedecked with flowers but a tumult flecked with foam.
Where is the shore that stored your buds and leaves?
Where the nest and the branch's hold?
Still, O bird, my sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

Stretching in front of you the night's immensity
Hides the western hill where sleeps the distant sun;
Still with bated breath the world is counting time and swimming
Across the shoreless dark a crescent moon
Has thinly just appeared upon the dim horizon.
--But O my bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

From upper skies the stars with pointing fingers
Intently watch your course and death's impatience
Lashes at you from the deeps in swirling waves ;
And sad entreaties line the farthest shore
With hands outstretched and crooning
' Come, O come ! ' Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings.

All that is past: your fears and loves and hopes ;
All that is lost: your words and lamentation ;
No longer yours a home nor a bed composed of flowers.
For wings are all you have, and the sky's broadening countryard,
And the dawn steeped in darkness, lacking all direction.
Dear bird, my sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings!

An adaption from Rabindranath Tagore


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM

Beautiful, Freda, beautiful. Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:53 PM

Thanks for posting this, freda. I agree with bruce... it is beautiful. The good thing about this cafe is so many of us have been down that same dark road. Sometimes we can give encouragement, just because we've been through it.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: bengi
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:35 PM

Off the DT

HARD TIMES COME AGAIN NO MORE
(Stephen Foster)


1. Let us pause in life's pleasures and count its many tears,
While we all sup sorrow with the poor;
There's a song that will linger forever in our ears;
Oh Hard times come again no more.

Chorus:
Tis the song, the sigh of the weary,
Hard Times, hard times, come again no more
Many days you have lingered around my cabin door;
Oh hard times come again no more.

2. While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay,
There are frail forms fainting at the door;
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say
Oh hard times come again no more.

3. There's a pale drooping maiden who toils her life away,
With a worn heart whose better days are o'er:
Though her voice would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day,
Oh hard times come again no more.

4. Tis a sigh that is wafted across the troubled wave,
Tis a wail that is heard upon the shore
Tis a dirge that is murmured around the lowly grave
Oh hard times come again no more.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:56 PM

Also a decent read....by Dickens.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM

Well danged, if we're gonna get down wid it6 lets jus' get down wid it. Know what I mean? Robin Fulks...

God help us all
in troubled dream some peace to find
the night is long
and those now gone they haunt my mind

The lone voice calls
the shadowed face towards me turns
her arms unfold
and on her breast my name is burned

Call out the flame or go
love left a child to roam
but my love ahs lmog turned cold
and night child is a stranger

Go, child go
from mental rage your dreams have flown
your home has fallen still
and thru it all still winds have blown

reserve with you in
there'so sweet taste of day's gone by
a long lost man
who sees no light nor hears you cry

Call out the flame or gpo
love left a child to to raom
but my love has long grown cold
night child is a stranger

Yeah, this is the hard times at its hardest........

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:48 PM

By Stephen Foster, writer of great American folk music.

From EmmyLou Harris' Live at The Ryman album:

[SPONSOR]
(stephen foster)

Let us pause in life's pleasures and count it's many tears
While we all sup sorrow with the poor.
There's a song that will linger forever in our ears,
Oh, hard times, come again no more

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

While we seek mirth and beauty and music light and gay.
There are frail forms fainting at the door
Though their voices are silent, their pleading looks will say,
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

There's a pale drooping maiden who foils her life away
With a worn out heart, whose better days are o'er.
Though her voice it would be merry, 'tis sighing all the day,
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more.

'tis the song, the sigh of the weary.
Hard times, hard times, come again no more.
Many days you have lingered all around my door.
Oh, hard times, come again no more


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:10 PM

Back when there still was a Smokey City Folk Festival, it ended with an outdoor concert on Sunday, that was rained out pretty regularly. Which discouraged us die hard folkies. But it did not drive us away.
We had a truly spectacular downpour the first year the concert was in Point Park. We all took refuge under a bridge. Some of the musicians dried off their instruments, and we all sang "Hard Times Come Again No More". The accoustics under that bridge were wonderful. And I have had few better times at Smokey City.

On another memorable afternoon, lightning shorted out the amplifiers. So we crowded on the stage to hear the last of the music.

I miss Smoky City.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:16 PM

Lady Jean

If you ever heard Emmylou's version, which is acapella with her band The Nash Ramblers singing harmony parts do it live on the Ryman album, I guarantee you goose bumps.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:40 AM

The Chorus to Find Rest Tonight:

So God bless those who find mercy in sleep
All those who sow who never will reap
All those who search who never find peace
May they find rest tonight

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:31 AM

I don't wish to be nauseous or nauseated, but this works for me:

Everything is Going to be All Right

How should I not be glad to contemplate
the clouds clearing beyond the dormer window
and a high tide reflected on the ceiling?
There will be dying, there will be dying,
but there is no need to go into that.
The line flows from the hand unbidden
and the hidden source is the watchful heart.
The sun rises in spite of everything
and the far cities are beautiful and bright.
I lie here in a riot of sunlight
watching the day break and the clouds flying.
Everything is going to be all right.

Derek Mahon


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:52 AM

When I was a young child I came across a sign (in a music shop window - funnily enough!) which said:

"I had not shoes and felt sorry for myself,
then I met a man who had no feet"

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:08 AM

Yeah, I see the sentiment, but that's not exactly a reason to be cheerful if you're suffering from depression. In fact, when you're clinically depressed you either don't care if the whole world lacks feet, or you care too much that everyone in the world lacks feet (thereby depressing yourself further because you can't stop the suffering), or you wish you could swap your depression for their lack of limbs. It may make me sound heartless, but when people told me "but why would you be depressed, you're healthy?" then I knew they didn't have a f*cking clue about what I was going through.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:09 AM

This thread made me think of a song which I always feel moved by whenever I hear it -


PETER GABRIEL - "Don't Give Up"

(Sung by Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush)


In this proud land we grew up strong
we were wanted all along
I was taught to fight, taught to win
I never thought I could fail

no fight left or so it seems
I am a man whose dreams have all deserted
I've changed my face, I've changed my name
but no one wants you when you lose

don't give up
'cos you have friends
don't give up
you're not beaten yet
don't give up
I know you can make it good

though I saw it all around
never thought I could be affected
thought that we'd be the last to go
it is so strange the way things turn

drove the night toward my home
the place that I was born, on the lakeside
as daylight broke, I saw the earth
the trees had burned down to the ground

don't give up
you still have us
don't give up
we don't need much of anything
don't give up
'cause somewhere there's a place
where we belong

rest your head
you worry too much
it's going to be alright
when times get rough
you can fall back on us
don't give up
please don't give up

'got to walk out of here
I can't take anymore
going to stand on that bridge
keep my eyes down below
whatever may come
and whatever may go
that river's flowing
that river's flowing

moved on to another town
tried hard to settle down
for every job, so many men
so many men no-one needs

don't give up
'cause you have friends
don't give up
you're not the only one
don't give up
no reason to be ashamed
don't give up
you still have us
don't give up now
we're proud of who you are
don't give up
you know it's never been easy
don't give up
'cause I believe there's a place
there's a place where we belong


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jeanie
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:08 AM

Thank you, everyone, for all these contributions. Here is an old Anglo-Saxon (Old English) poem, "Deor", which contains one of my favourite refrains to see me through hard times:

Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg
That passed, so may this

You can read the whole poem in Modern and Old English here: DEOR and also hear it spoken in the beautiful sounds of Old English.

Here are a couple of poetry anthologies that I thoroughly recommend, and which see me through all the ups and downs:

"101 Poems that could save your life: An Anthology of Emotional First Aid", edited by Daisy Goodwin, publ. Harper Collins

"Staying Alive: real poems for unreal times", edited by Neil Astley, publ. Bloodaxe Books.

- jeanie


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 01:52 PM

These have been beautiful posts. Thanks- especially for the Tagore, Freda. It spoke to the heart.


Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Noreen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:23 PM

Fibula: goosepimples...

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM

Hey, fibula: You are dead on about depression. For the most part, you aren't even thinking about anyone else. I know about that. But then, it's hard to know WHAT someone can say that can do a lot to help you out of a depression. It's a long process, and even though loving support means a lot, it's that lonesome valley you have to walk by yourself, most of the time.

That said, I still like the sentiment of the sign, whether it might seem simplistic or not. My Father always considered himself fortunate because he saw people around him who were worse of. He never complained. No matter what was happening in his life, when I'd ask him how he was doing, he'd always answer "Pretty good." I thought that was a great answer. He wasn't denying his problems. He was just seeing them in the perspective of the lives of others around him.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: flattop
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:51 PM

Not to steal spaw's thunder,
(presuming he still thunders)
I believe that fizz was the
ole english for fart.

Perhaps 'That passed, so may
this' refers to fizzing.

Ry Cooder sings one for or all you
depressed folkers.... The chorus
sums it up nicely.

RY COODER LYRICS
TROUBLE YOU CAN'T FOOL ME LYRICS
(f. knight/a. varnell)

trouble you can't fool me
I see you behind that tree
trouble you can't fool me
trying to get the ups on me
trouble you can't fool me
I see you behind that tree
you want to jump on me


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: flattop
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 04:53 PM

I believe it's on the same album as
the song 'The very thing that makes
her rich, make me poor.' Now that's
depressing.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: ranger1
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 08:05 PM

In January of 1998, I was a hairs-breadth away from killing myself. Nothing had gone right in my life for so long that it seemed like the sun had permanently gone behind a cloud. I was deep in debt, had recently gotten into a car accident (without insurance, I might add), was suffering from carpal tunnel in both wrists, had received an eviction notice from being several months behind on my rent and was working in an absolutely wretched, hellish job that came no-where near paying my basic living expenses. My dog saved my life. If I killed myself, who would take proper care of him? It was a tenuous thread, but I paused long enough to get to a friend's house and he kept me safe and helped give me the breathing space to find my way to my own sort of sanity and peace of mind. Depression is nothing to be taken lightly, but at the same time, those folks behind the cloud need to remember that they do have people who care about their continued existence.

John Donne said it very well:
Devotions Upon Emergent Occasions
"no man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death deminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Sorry about the lack of proper lines. Had to dig this out of my Heavy Thoughts Notebook, where it was very hastily scribbled.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 09:16 PM

Recently did a little dig through Hank Williams Sr.'s website - "We're still a'livin' so everything's OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: MAG
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:29 PM

except Hank lived suicidally -- as do so many.

Love 'em and let 'em go. There's a song about having children with that line.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM

Sung to Auld Ang Sang and your creditors.

Fuck you
Fuck you
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You
Fuck You

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Why arn't there ANY gigs in the last week of February?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: kendall
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:11 PM

There is no bigger pain in the ass than some air head saying, "Oh, you shouldn't feel that way."
Anyone who has never been clinically depressed has no clue what it is. Listen, YOU SIMPLY DONT CARE. Now, where the hell are you going from there?
If you have never been depressed, you shouldn't even post here unless it's to ask a question.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM

Been there, Kendall.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Little Robyn
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:34 PM

I particularly like some of the words in Phil Coulter's Steal away - "We have to choose to win or lose, and it's time we started winning."
You don't have to suffer from clinical depression to feel sad or fed-up with the way your life is going. Just when you think things are getting better, something else happens and Bang! You're right back where you started. So sometimes we sing Hard Times but other times we'll sing Steal Away.

STEAL AWAY

CHORUS:
Steal away, Let's steal away, no reason left to stay.
For me and you, let's start anew, and darling steal away.

Let's steal away and chase our dreams
And hope they'll never find us.
The dreamy days, the empty nights,
We'll leave them all behind us.
CHORUS


We'll leave behind the city streets
The gloom and desolation
The rain, the cold, just growing old
God knows it's a hard old station.
CHORUS

We'll leave behind our memories
and make a new beginning
We have to choose to win or lose
And it's time we started winning.
CHORUS

Robyn


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:03 PM

"You don't have to suffer from clinical depression to feel sad or fed-up with the way your life is going. Just when you think things are getting better, something else happens and Bang! You're right back where you started."

True words, Little Robyn. And you don't have to suffer from clinical depression for people to ask you when you're going to "get over" whatever hit you.

In my case, probably never. I'll change, evolve, maybe emerge a new, wiser, more careworn person, but "get over it?" Nope.

BUT- I saw my first robin today. In February! In New Hampshire! After the coldest January since temperature records have been kept!

And songs and poems help in their way, too. When they don't pull me down.

Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:19 PM

........."If you have never been depressed, you shouldn't even post here unless it's to ask a question."......

Question. Does "here" mean Mudcat, or just this thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:48 PM

Does it matter? The thread isn't strictly about depression anyway. I'd guess Kendall is/was having a bad day and fed up with of folks who have no idea where 'Depressed' is but are 100% sure they're qualified to give directions to a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

Well, I get what kendall means, and I know people are trying to help when they offer a kind of a "Pollyanna" response to clinical depression. It's not just that I'd like to punch Pollyana in her smug little face, it's also that you know that counting your blessings may put you leagues ahead of other peoples' suffering, but you just don't (or can't) care. But you do come out the other side, eventually. I was lucky to have someone talk me out of some really stupid (in retrospect) ideas, and I was fortunate enough to have a friend who would sit with me all night long on occasion. It's tilted the balance of our friendship, but we're getting back on track. The fear of it's still there though. I am so bloody terrified of ever feeling that way again.

Whether this thread is about depression, or misery, or grief, or suffering - whatever - it's totally possible to come out the other side. Just give it time.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM

Of course, there's the flip side of the coin to people who tell you to "get over it." (Not that anyone ever said that to me, and there aren't many people who are that insensitive.) There's the fear of not knowing what to say, or being greated by hostility when you're trying to be supportive that leads many people to say nothing. How many millions of people are sick in nursing homes, hospitals or Psychiatric wards and no one visits them because they "don't know what to say?"

What DO you say?

How about, I really care about you? Or better yet, if the person is receptive to it.. "I'm keeping you in prayer?" While there are times when you need to be alone, and times when you just aren't up to talking to anyone, nobody wants to feel like they've been forgotten or that no one cares about them.

Maybe the best thing to do is let people know that you care about them, and that you're there for them when they need to talk with you, whatever time of day or night it is. I still think that caring is good medicine. Sometimes people don't know how to express it very well.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: ranger1
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:37 PM

Sometimes, you don't need to hear someone say something. Sometimes you just need to be heard and not given advice or pity. Sometimes just a hug and knowing that there is someone who cares whether you live or die and who will just listen for a change is what really matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:43 PM

There are conditions that cannot be reached by making meaningful sounds. Some minds can only be reached by physical connection, some solid communication like an object being passed back and forth, or by simple direct control.

You gotta deal with the person in front of you. Nothing else.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM

True, Amos and Ranger1. Today after church it became clear that several of us women were lingering in the sanctuary; within minutes we were holding each other and weeping out our sorrows- one's marriage is breaking apart, another just learned of the death of a friend at age 42 and another friend who is dying; another's sister just lost her husband suddenly; I was weepy over Byron- we just held each other and rocked and wept and gave each other love.

After lunch I visited an elder woman (age 89) from my church; she was hospitalized for pneumonia, was released too early, got herself up and about way too soon, fell and broke her elbow, and is due back for surgery this week. She is prone to moaning about her hard life. I don't know her well so she spent most of the visit talking about her husband, who died 10 years ago, and soon she was saying, "It's been a good life. A good life."

I realized that the impulse to visit her was serving us both- getting both outside our individual sorrows. I didn't tell her what I thought would make her better, I just sat with her for awhile.

I feel blessed after being with her. Blessed by the community of loving souls in my village and here on the Mudcat.

Allison


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 05:27 PM

A few weeks ago, I posted a thread asking for a little help as I was feeling very depressed. Many kind folks replied with little gold nuggets of advice, as I had asked for. I am gratefull to all who replied. I particularly remember two posts; Brucies with all the things people say to you, that he wrote in knowing jest, meant to kick start you and Sorchas with deep concern that I might do myself in. I believe that I replied to Brucie saying that he had given me the best laugh of the day, and to Sorcha saying that I was too much of a coward to try suicide.

Thanks Freda and I hope you didn't start this thread as a veiled call for help. 'Catter 'critters wrote from all over to give me a much needed lift. We would for you too.

Donada,
Julie


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:03 PM

I too have been close to suicide and prone to hiding from everything...and everyone...and each time it was a friend or a loved one (especially my Gramma) who said or did something to pull me out of the gutter...sometimes it was a song...or sometimes it was a poem...or even a joint...but I pulled out...and am still here today...

Yes, I still feel depression...I still feel a sadness that is never truly away...but I am not wallwoing in that mire...I keep myself away from it...by music...by hope...by dreams and by love...I refuse to let myself give into that darkness...I do have my love and my unborn baby to think about.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:57 PM

thanks Walking eagle, for your lovely thoughts.

no, right now, this thread was not for me. but what the original poem was, was just a description of bleakness. my idea, however the thread wanders, was just to use the poem to look at those feelings & acknowledge them.

it was not about changing them, overcoming them, because although those things are necessary and good, at the time that someone is entrenched in depression, change or a future is a theoretical concept which serves only to deny or ignore the current feelings.

"Still, O bird, O sightless bird,
Not yet, not yet the time to furl your wings."

I though the description of the big flightless bird was beautiful because it described, totally, blackness and bleakness which is a part of life sometimes.

i guess i wanted to acknowledge those bleak feelings that some people are feeling right now and observe them.

when anyone is sunk in it, that big flightless bird or black dog is very real.

freda
a big flighty bird..


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:53 PM

When I look back at the time when I was hospitalized with a depression, I try to remember what brought me out of it. I suspect it's different for each person, depending on what brought you into iy in the first place. That makes it difficult to make any generalizations about what helps most. When I was hospitalized, I was just greatful that people came to visit me. I couldn't tell you what they said, because what was most important was that they came, and they showed their love for me. When I left the hospital, I stepped back into the same overwhelming world that broke me down, but I came out differently. I was taking the first steps toward loving myself, and I was ferocious about not letting anyone take that away from me. Maybe one of the basic ingredients about coming out of a depression is being able to go back into the same world that put you in it. Maybe the other prime ingredient is truly knowing how much others love you, and truly loving yourself.

Beyond that, I don't really know what to say because in the long run, all I really know is me, and it took me many, many years to get to know myself. I don't know what it's like to lose someone you were deeply in love with. I don't know what it's like to go blind, or lose a leg. Unfortunately, that knowledge doesn't come to you unless it happens to you.

The only other thing I think I know is that it's pretty much impossible to come out of a depression by yourself. It's definitely not a "pull yourself up by the boot straps" experience. I will never forget the kindness that friends and family showed me. That's why it's so important for us in here to express our love and support for each other.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:19 AM

time to think about this one again..


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

Thanks for refreshing this, GUEST. There have been some good threads on this subject, for those who want to find them. Hard to do when you're depressed, though. It takes too much energy..so thanks again for bringing this one back..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM

When I'm depressed I just want to be left the hell alone. This is sometimes hard for people around me to understand. It isn't anything personal against them, I just need a little space to rest, is all.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM

Kim, there are different levels of depression. If it's only something that happens on occasion, and your way of dealing with it is by being left alone, that's just fine, and people need to learn to respect that wish.

But severe depression is something quite different, and for those people, it often helps to just be able to write what they're going through here. It feels safe because it's anonymous, but at the same time, there are lots of folks about who have been through similiar periods, and can sometimes offer much needed guidance.

Space to rest is a good thing...but sleeping for weeks at a time would indicate a far more difficult problem. So just know yourself well enough to be able to see the difference, yes?..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:49 AM

Ellen, I know that. I have been through it most of my life and been treated for it, and posted about it often on Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM

One of the things that separates youth from adulthood is the realization that the mood you are in is not the one you are stuck in for life. Very young children have this in spades: I often think the whole role of adults with children is to keep saying: this emotion will pass. When you get a bit older, this descent into a mood can deepen, and then you are really stuck, because you can see further, extrapolate more, and it all looks bleak ahead. In my experience, a number of youth suicides came from that -- a feeling that the valley they were in was never going to end. And there is nothing you can say, shouting from the neighbouring hills, overlooking other, maybe better landscapes in the distance, that will be of much use to anyone in that valley.

I remember one really bright student came in to see me once and he said: "Not only is the universe meaningless, but if it is, then my depression is meaningless, too, can there be anything more pathetic, what are we doing here?". Happily he survived, but I always remember that acid bath of withering uselessness that he articulated. I remember some theologian somewhere once said: "This is all God has given us to work with, but couldn't He have given us just a little more light, would it have been so bad?"

yours,

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM

Ah, sorry KimC. I didn't realize you had posted often before on this. I didn't mean to sound pompous or knowing more than anyone else, though I've certainly been down that road on and off all my life.

I hope this is not one of those moments when you're going through it, but if you are...much luck and good energy coming your way...(and I'm waaay too far away to bug you with anything more, and never would in any case!)..xx..e


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM

Here is another Tagore one..
(note - "Shey" in Bengali can mean either he or she; Maya means illusion)


At dawn shey departed
My mind tried to console me -
" Everything is Maya".
Angrily I replied:
"Here's this sewing box on the table,
that flower-pot on the terrace,
this monogrammed hand-fan on the bed---
all these are real."

My mind said: "Yet, think again."
I rejoined: " You better stop.
Look at this storybook,
the hairpin halfway amongst its leaves,
signaling the rest is unread;
if all these things are "Maya",
then why should "shey" be more unreal?"


My mind becomes silent.
A friend arrived and says:
"That which is good is real
it is never non-existent;
entire world preserves and cherishes it its chest
like a precious jewel in a necklace."


I replied in anger: "How do you know?
Is a body not good? Where did that body go?"

Like a small boy in a rage hitting his mother,
I began to strike at everything in this world
that gave me shelter.
And I screamed:" The world is treacherous."

Suddenly, I was startled.
It seemed like someone admonished me :" You- ungrateful ! "

I looked at the crescent moon
hidden behind the tamarisk tree outside my window.
As if the dear departed one is smiling
and playing hide-and-seek with me.

From the depth of darkness punctuated by scattered stars
came a rebuke: "when I let you grasp me you call it an deception,
and yet when I remain concealed,
why do you hold on to your faith in me with such conviction?"



Translated from: "Ungrateful Sorrow (Grief)" by: Rabindranath Thakur (Tagore)


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

Sure he could have; but the light we invent ourselves means more to us. The worst thing abou depression is that it centers around having no causation and authorship. This is not "true", of course, but when you are sitting in it, true is not a concern. What matters is the burning feeling of dark hopeless choiceless ineptitude. Busting out of that can be as simple as tearing off down the road until winded, or setting out to finsih things left unfinsihed--or itcan be as complex as lengthy psychiatric dances and pharmaceutical cornucopiae...


A


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

What use is an invented light, if the power source is a dynamo churning in pitiless darkness? (As Lucy van Pelt once remarked: "You stupid darkness!!!)

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: for those going through Hard Times
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

Mind you, I've never messed with psychiatric paraphrenalia and wouldn't be paid to. I was merely commenting on the potential for complexity inherent in depression. And BTW what is the opposite of "depressed"? Released? Upsprung? Outflung? Undamped? Resurgent?

Anyway, I notice that the universe appears simpler by far when resurgent, or whatever the word is, than when depressed.

A
A


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