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Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay

MickyMan 27 Feb 04 - 10:10 PM
MickyMan 27 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM
dick greenhaus 28 Feb 04 - 12:01 AM
Janice in NJ 28 Feb 04 - 01:01 AM
Brían 28 Feb 04 - 11:06 AM
Joe Offer 28 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM
Big Mick 28 Feb 04 - 01:35 PM
Mark Cohen 28 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Van 28 Feb 04 - 02:19 PM
Strick 28 Feb 04 - 02:22 PM
InOBU 28 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Obie 28 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM
Mark Cohen 28 Feb 04 - 06:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey. 28 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM
paddymac 28 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM
Janice in NJ 28 Feb 04 - 08:16 PM
Joe_F 28 Feb 04 - 08:30 PM
GUEST 28 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM
Mark Cohen 28 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 28 Feb 04 - 09:13 PM
Mark Cohen 28 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM
Big Mick 28 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM
katlaughing 29 Feb 04 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,JTT 29 Feb 04 - 12:20 AM
dianavan 29 Feb 04 - 01:10 AM
katlaughing 29 Feb 04 - 01:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM
InOBU 29 Feb 04 - 08:39 PM
Brían 01 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM
MickyMan 01 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 01 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM
GUEST 01 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM
Mark Cohen 01 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM
InOBU 02 Mar 04 - 08:31 AM
Brían 02 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM
GUEST,Marc Bernier 02 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM
Brían 03 Mar 04 - 06:46 AM
Strick 03 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM
InOBU 03 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,JTT 03 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM
Strick 03 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM
Big Mick 03 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM
InOBU 03 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM
Big Mick 04 Mar 04 - 01:53 PM
InOBU 04 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM
InOBU 04 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM
Big Mick 05 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM
katlaughing 05 Mar 04 - 12:34 AM
Big Mick 05 Mar 04 - 12:44 AM
matai 05 Mar 04 - 02:12 AM
Big Mick 05 Mar 04 - 02:15 AM
Dave Bryant 05 Mar 04 - 07:21 AM
katlaughing 05 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM
Big Mick 05 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM
InOBU 05 Mar 04 - 03:15 PM
Big Mick 05 Mar 04 - 03:27 PM
katlaughing 05 Mar 04 - 03:39 PM
InOBU 05 Mar 04 - 03:48 PM
MickyMan 10 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM
InOBU 10 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Barry 10 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM
InOBU 10 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM
Big Mick 10 Mar 04 - 11:04 AM
Big Mick 10 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM
Big Mick 10 Mar 04 - 11:20 AM
InOBU 10 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM
Big Mick 10 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,MMario 10 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM
Big Mick 10 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM
InOBU 10 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM
barrygeo 12 Mar 04 - 06:22 AM
Big Mick 12 Mar 04 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,barrygeo 12 Mar 04 - 11:47 AM
Big Mick 12 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM
Strick 12 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,guest 18 Mar 04 - 09:51 PM
InOBU 19 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM
Mark Cohen 20 Mar 04 - 04:42 AM
GUEST 20 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM
InOBU 20 Mar 04 - 09:19 AM
GUEST,dan 13 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 08 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM
framus 08 Mar 11 - 08:39 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:10 PM

Looking for the words to this song....don't know the writer...this may not even be the title, but it was on a CD called "Laugh Tracks" (I believe)which was a composite of live humorous songs put out after a workshop of comical songs. It's a very witty reference to the problems that occurred when Gays tried to march in the St Patrick's Day parade (I believe it was in NYC.)

Some lines were..."you can be a bum, a bucket of scum, who sits around all day, but you can't be Irish if you're gay" [something like that. Does anybody have the words?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

I just looked up the Laugh Tracks II CD on Google and found out that the song is titled "God Loves The Irish" and it's by a guy called ???? Carlson.   Does anybody know the words?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:01 AM

WEll, a leprechaun is an Irish fairy...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:01 AM

I don't know the song, but I am familiar with the issue: the many unsuccessful attempts by the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization to march under its own banner in New York City's Saint Patrick's Day Parade. I should say the Manhattan parade, because there are other Saint Patrick's Day Parades throughout the city, and the one in the Borough of Queens has always welcomed ILGO. How appropriate! :-)

The exclusionary parade in Manhattan is sponsored by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and the courts have repeatedly ruled that it is up to AOH to determine who can and who cannot march. As things stand now, if Sir Roger Casement were to arise from the dead, the AOH would tell him to piss off.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:06 AM

I don't know who the singer is but it appears on Schooner Fare's 25th anniversary album. You could get a copy from Outer Green Records.

Peace to all,

Brían


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM

This page says it's on the 20th Anniversary Party CD by Schooner Fare, which is no longer available. The songwriter was Rob Carlson, a guest performer at the party. Schooner Fare called it "You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay" on their CD. It could well be called "God Loves The Irish" on Carlson's recording, as MickyMan says.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:35 PM

Janice, I understand your point about Casement, but you are missing a very big point. Whether I agree or disagree with the AOH is not the point. The reason they have been successful in controlling their parade, when other cities have not, is because they pay for it. Other cities where there was municipal money involved were forced to allow ILGO to march under their own banner. That was entirely appropriate. But it is also appropriate for an organization that is paying the freight to make the rules. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

I happen to believe that the AOH, of which I am a member, is wrong on this issue. As a State Organizer I tell them so. But they pay the way. You don't have to like it, you just aren't entitled to force them to send a message that they don't want to send. It's their gig.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM

Mick, you're not allowed to bar black people from a restaurant even if you own the restaurant. A parade, no matter who pays for it, is a public event.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:19 PM

What about Graham Norton then.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:22 PM

"Mick, you're not allowed to bar black people from a restaurant even if you own the restaurant. A parade, no matter who pays for it, is a public event."

So, just to be respectfully argumentative, if the NAACP is marching in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday, by your reasoning they'd have to accept a delegation from the KKK in their parade?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM

Well... THE AOH and the City of New York should read the Constitution of the State of New York and USA. No religious event should have an accommodation other religions do not, they get (in the City Charter) the right to close 5th Ave. on a weekday. No other religious parade in the city has that right. However, if they were a non-sectarian parade they would not have the "right" to break the law (i.e.: exclude Gay contingents) under the New York City and State human rights law, however, they get around this by saying they are a historically and presently religious event, and Catholic at that. Bunk. In that case, march on the weekend, and historically, WE IRISH PROTESTANTS began the parade, and it is our holiday as well.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

Is the AOH allowed to march in the Gay Pride Parade? If they are banned
would it not piss them off? :-}


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:04 PM

Not just my reasoning, Strick. It's the law.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: Lyr Add: HEY RONNIE REAGAN (Christy Moore)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

HEY RONNIE REAGAN
(c) Christy Moore

I remember the show twenty-one years ago,
When John Kennedy paid us a visit.
Now the world's rearranged - not improved, only changed -
But our heart's in the same place - or is it?

CHORUS: Hey Ronnie Reagan, I'm black and I'm pagan,
I'm gay and I'm left and I'm free.
I'm a non-fundamentalist environmentalist.
Please don't bother me.

You're so cool, playing poker with death as the joker.
You've nerve, but you don't reassure us.
With those paranoid vistas of mad Sandinistas,
Are you really defending Honduras?
You'll be wearing the green down at Ballyporeen,
The town of the little potato.
Put your arms around Garret and dangle your carrot,
But you'll never get me to join NATO.

CHORUS

Do you share my impression the world's in recession,
There's rather too much unemployment?
Still with Pershing and Cruise we'll have nothing to lose,
But millions in missile deployment.
We can dig shelter holes when we've bartered our souls,
For security then we can shovel.
While the myth of our dreams turns to nightmares, it seems,
From the White House straight back to the hovel.

CHORUS

Since the Irish dimension has won your attention,
I ask myself just what's your game.
Do your eyes share the tears of our last fifteen years,
Or is that just a vote-catcher's gleam?
Your dollars may beckon, but I think we should reckon,
The cost of accepting your gold.
If we join your alliance, what price our defiance,
What's left if our freedom is sold?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey.
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

I am Irish and not gay, but I am proud to know friends who are.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: paddymac
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM

Our Emerald Isle Society here in Tallahassee is coming up on our fifth St Paddy's Day parade. Last year, the then-new mayor was grand marshal. He traces part of his ancestry back to Cork, but many folks don't get past the more visible African part. Same might be said about our current Secretary of State, Colin Powell. Bigotry is blind and stupid. But, sadly, it also seems to be seems to be wide-spread among all the peoples of the earth.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:16 PM

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities of all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority in the past.

That's good enough for me!

And yes, the Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade would certainly welcome a contingent from AOH. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "You can be in my parade if I can be in yours."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:30 PM

I have read that in Dublin there is no difficulty with gays marching in the St Patrick's Day parade. In New York, of course, they know better.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM

This is a real eye opener. I never for one moment thought New York was so backward. How sad and extremely off putting.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM

THE Pat Cooksey? Welcome to the Mudcat! (Oh...just checked and I see you've been here before. Well, welcome anyway.)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:13 PM

The song can be found on the album by Modern Man---The Wide Album is its title.   

A brilliant piece of humor with Rob Carlson--I believe--the author. The group consists of Rob Carlson, David Buskin, George Wurzbach.   

If they are ever in your area---prepare to see and to laugh.


The link to the website for the recording is

www.modernman3.com

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM

Bill are Modern Man the ones who did "My Father Looks Like Moe"? I heard that one on WKSU.org. (By the way, here's a better link to the Modern Man website.)

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM

I want to be very clear here. I do not support this policy. But I am stating that the courts have determined that the AOH pays the freight and they have the right to set the rules, no matter how silly they are, as long as they do not violate civil rights laws. Want this to change? Then elect lawmakers that pass laws that represent people. Quit going for the red herrings tossed to you designed to wedge you away from your own natural political allies.

Mark, I note (with respect) that you didn't answer the question posed to you with regard to NAACP parades. Of course a group can control its own event, so long as it is paying the way. You can't discriminate on the basis of race because that is illegal. Many of us (myself included) have worked for years to add sexual orientation to the list. But as of now it is not covered.

The position I have taken with the AOH has been, and remains, that this is a secular event with its origins in religion. It is about being Irish, and they should welcome all people that are celebrating that heritage. I do believe they have the right, and properly should, make sure all entrants meet certain standards in the parade that they are paying for, but these standards should NOT include a sexual orientation proviso.

Larry, once more, interprets the law in ways that the courts do not. This issue has been to the bar, and ILGO lost.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:09 AM

Guest, Van, thanks for the chuckle. What about Graham Norton, indeed.**bg**

Goodonya, Mr. Cooksey!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:20 AM

From the one line quoted, the song sounds like a nasty piece of work.

Yes, of course gay people should be able to march. Why on earth not?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:10 AM

WHO is Graham Norton????????

d


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:33 AM

One of the funniest, chatty show-hosts of tv...from Ireland, in London, on BBC and BBC-America. He's outrageous, adorable, and an expert at getting people to reveal the most naughty things.**bg** Check out some of the archives by clicking here. And, oh, yes, he IS gay.:-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM

From the one line quoted, the song sounds like a nasty piece of work.

I wouldn't worry JTT. I haven't heard the song, but I'd be pretty certain that the line is meant to be taken ironically.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:39 PM

Big Mick writes..."
Larry, once more, interprets the law in ways that the courts do not. This issue has been to the bar, and ILGO lost."

Mick, a mhic... the law is all about interpretation. The case which bears my name, Otway v the City of New York, was a different issue, the above issue is the one I wished to litigate, a provision in the city charter. My dear friend Bill Kunstler instead focused on the fact that cops in uniform march in the parade. I didn't think it was the way to go, but, hell I was a second or third year law student and Bill was Bill. I don't think it would have mattered, as the case went before Judge Keven Michael Patrick Duffy... guess how he felt about things? Frankly, I think an Irish American judge should have recused himself... but the bottom line with Judge Duffy is that he is a tad conservative. Frankly, the civil rights law and the State Constitution 1st amendment is not very ambiguous, but to say that I have odd views of the law, hell, don't forget the 14th amendment was not applied to Black Americans for nearly one hundred years... is it wrong headed of me to feel that 1. A gay rights law should protect gay rights, and 2. There should be a separation of church and state... ah shucks, I guess I am just trippin' up the stairs.
Cheers,
Happy St. Pat's
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

I found the CD and can post the words later.

Síocháin dhaoibh,

Brían


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Wow....I'm finally back tending my thread and it certainly makes for interesting reading. Just to keep the road clear for Rob Carlson, the song is definitely tongue and cheek and I'm looking forward to playing it in Irish-American folk venues because I think it is something that still needs to be pondered by the public. It's right up there with Stan Roger's song about not giving $$$$ to the IRA.
    I was kind of hoping that the problem had been solved since the song's writing but this does not seem to be the case.
By the way folks, I'm still waiting for the *#$@^% words. Stop politicizing this thing in print and let's get it sung about far and wide. GET ME THE WORDS!!!!! You heard me. I REALLY WANT THE WORDS !!!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

Yes, Mark, they are the group that did the "Moe" piece. That one was written by Geo. Wurzbach.   It is amazing the various styles of music they can do and the wit with which they can spoof different genres. "Bumper Huntin' in Tennessee" spoof Bluegrass and then there is Suring Music with Channel Surfing USA.

And--JTT---it is not a nasty piece at all. What it is is a satirical piece meant to criticize ===as they say--"...the grey eminences of the Order of Ancient Hibernians" in their exclusion of Gays.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM

But Still no words.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM

Well, to paraphrase a well-known physician, "Dammit, Mick, I'm a doctor, not a lawyer!" -- and I'd do well to keep my mouth shut on legal issues.    Interesting discussion, all the same. And thanks for the info, Bill...sounds like those guys are definitely worth checking out. I loved "Moe".

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:31 AM

Dear Mick and Mark:
I do have a Juris Doctorate... so as Mark has passed on the NAACP question, let me offer the following. The question is must the NAACP allow the KKK to march in their parades. No, that is a civil parade and not a religious event, and as such, can tailor their member content to their message - basic first amendment law. Now, also the KKK is not a suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of any community of which I am aware. On to the St. Pat's parade. They acknowledge that if they were a general civil event parade, they cannot exclude on the basis of a protected groups rights. For example, the KKK cannot have a parade which states an exclusion in participation to Black Americans and get a parade permit in New York (as unlikely as that sounds). So... they declared themselves a religious event, making 5th Avenue a place of "Catholic religious expression." MY point, is that by so doing they loose rights extended to them not given to other religious groups, for example, YES they then have the right to exclude Gay contingents, however, then we few Quakers have the right to close 5th Ave. on a weekday and parade up 5th avenue as do all the other religions in New York. This is the basic difference between your idea of an unlimited 1st amendment and the law as generally accepted, but suspended in the case of this example of bigotry as expressed by one subset of the Catholic and Irish American community.
Cheers and Happy 17th all.
Larry
PS Don't forget to raise a glass to Roger Casement, Brendon Behan, Padraig and Willie Pearce, Oscar Wilde, Brendon Fey, Anne McQuire and many other talented and true hearted Irish hearts.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM

Sorry I'm busy! I will get back to you!

Brían


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Marc Bernier
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM

I'd like to see words to this song also.


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Subject: Lyr Add: YOU CAN'T BE IRISH IF YOU'RE GAY (Carlson
From: Brían
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:46 AM

YOU CAN'T BE IRISH IF YOU'RE GAY
Rob Carlson

We'll be coming down Fifth Avenue upon St. Patty's Day
A great day for the Irish all across the U.S.A.
But begorrah, what is this I hear, this cry and ballyhoo?
There's a bunch of queers that are getting us scared that say they're Irish, too.

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
He won't be wanting you marching upon St. Patty's Day.
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay.
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

Now the Order of Hibernians, those eminences gray
Have delivered this pronouncement upon the Blessed Day
Sure, a little bit of heaven found nestled in the sea
But you're going straight to hell for homosexuality

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
That was their pronouncement as the pipes began to play
You can be a con a mafia don we'll laugh it all away
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S spells lesbians
Choose another woman for to mate with
Divil a man can ever get a date with
L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S we say
It's a shame that these dames want to come out and march with us
Lesbians-no way!

Well Just as Cardinal O'Connor is bound to set us straight
It's boyos like the Kennedys that made this country great
We don't allow no Peter pan a wearin' of the Green
And when we say, "Up the Irish", that isn't what we mean.

Oh, God loves the Irish as long as Men are Men
Except of course, for leprechauns we've never been sure of them
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay
But you can't be Irish
You can't be Irish
Don't dare to be Irish if you're gay

Dyd-le-dee dydle-dee dye-dle dee, dye-dle dye-dle day!

Brían


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM

"The question is must the NAACP allow the KKK to march in their parades. No, that is a civil parade and not a religious event, and as such, can tailor their member content to their message - basic first amendment law. Now, also the KKK is not a suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of any community of which I am aware. On to the St. Pat's parade. They acknowledge that if they were a general civil event parade, they cannot exclude on the basis of a protected groups rights."

I think I almost have it. So you're saying that if the KKK had a parade on MLK Day (a la Skokie where the ACLU and the courts sided with their right to a parade despite their particular exclusivity) for example, they couldn't exclude the NAACP, since Blacks are suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of almost every community. Did I get that right? This only works one way? Would this apply to other civic events, as well. If I sponsored a rally in Central Park, for instance, I couldn't be sure I could decide who could or couldn't speak if there were the possibility of a "suspect class", say the Log Cabin Republicans, becoming involved?

I assume that a celebration of a Saint's day by Catholics has a fairly legitimate right to be considered a religious expression doesn't it? I mean it would be different if we were discussing the Protestant Orangemen since Protestants as a rule don't celebrate any Saint's day. When I celebrate Valentine's Day, for example, it's a purely secular thing. Is there something like the Zipper trademark case where once a religious event is celebrated by everyone, it becomes secular?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM

"I think I almost have it. So you're saying that if the KKK had a parade on MLK Day (a la Skokie where the ACLU and the courts sided with their right to a parade despite their particular exclusivity) for example, they couldn't exclude the NAACP, since Blacks are suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of almost every community. Did I get that right? This only works one way? Would this apply to other civic events, as well. If I sponsored a rally in Central Park, for instance, I couldn't be sure I could decide who could or couldn't speak if there were the possibility of a "suspect class", say the Log Cabin Republicans, becoming involved?"

In effect, yes. There is balancing which goes on, one issue often raised is one's right to march vs. public safety. So, one may have a right to parade one's bigotry, however, the city does not have to allow you to do so anywhere you choose. So, if you intend to abridge others rights in conjunction with your parade, your rights may in turn be abridged. So, if the KKK wished to have an inclusive parade, they would access more rights than if they wished to exclude suspect classes for discrimination. But the law is not an absolute, which is why there are courts and judges, rather than computer forms. The law is pushed and pulled with the times - however, I think that judge Duffy strayed a bit far from the mainstream constitutional interpretation, but not on his own, Bill Kunstler (who I love admire and respect) could have cut closer to the constitutional issue by pointing to the city charter allowance for the parade's special circumstance. I think most would agree that if a parade is given special rights by a city, it should not have a message which pointedly excludes citizens who are peacefully expecting their full rights of citizenship.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

Umm, the Ku Klux Klan is an organisation devoted to suppressing the rights of black people, as far as I know.

Gay Irish people aren't trying to stop other Irish people having any rights, are they? Or have I missed something here?

(I'm bemused by GBH, sorry, I mean GWB, and his stance against gay marriage, by the way. I would have thought that marriage is a stabilising influence in society, so it would be a *good* thing if gay people were to get married. Strange to be so against this!)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM

"Umm, the Ku Klux Klan is an organisation devoted to suppressing the rights of black people, as far as I know.

Gay Irish people aren't trying to stop other Irish people having any rights, are they? Or have I missed something here?"

Ah, but the question isn't who is for or against what, only that two organizations have equal rights to publicly express their opinions (the reason the ACLU supported the KKK in Skokie) and to associate with whom they please. Those are pretty well established Constitutional rights after all. It's the lack of equity that's confusing. I realize that rights are not absolute, but this seems reduce the rights of one these groups just because you don't agree with them.

In the case of the Saint Patrick's parade, those citizens are just trying to honor a religious belief that goes back roughly 2,500 years. It's your right to be as gay as you want; it's their right to think you live in sin and are going to hell, even if the idea's not universally popular.

"So, if you intend to abridge others' rights in conjunction with your parade, your rights may in turn be abridged."

Ah, a technicality. So by this reasoning it's reasonable for cities to create zones for protesters who could interfere with things like a WTO meeting?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM

What he said.

Well said, Strick. I think you have said precisely what I was trying to, but not doing very well.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM

"In the case of the Saint Patrick's parade, those citizens are just trying to honor a religious belief that goes back roughly 2,500 years. It's your right to be as gay as you want; it's their right to think you live in sin and are going to hell, even if the idea's not universally popular."

Well, the parade becoming a "Catholic" event goes back to the point at which the AOH punished one chapter for allowing ILGO to march with them under their own banner. At first the AOL said they could not march as there was a waiting list to join the parade, but, ILGO was always at the end of that list no matter how much time passed. So, one of the AOH chapters, Manhattan, I think, said they could march with them. AOH then went after the chapter and declared ILGO could not march, not because of a waiting list but because they were a Catholic event. My point, is at that point, they loose the right to use rights only granted to them under the city charter. It is hard to keep this point in your mind, here it is again... 1. Religious parade, CAN exclude gay marchers... but cannot have a special grant by the city given to no other religious parade, 2. Civil parade CAN'T exclude gay marchers yet CAN be the only parade to use 5th Ave. on a week day (other than Memorial day parade, also a civil parade...)

And, as a matter of fact the city DOES say where WTO demos can take place... often rather aggressively.

All the best, cheers, and happy St. Pats
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:53 PM

Larry,

The courts have found they have the right to control the march. You act as though you can change that here. My point is that if you were correct, and as committed as you try to portray here, then you would have prevailed. If not initially, then on appeal. You are wrong in this case. All your flailing around, my friend, does not change that.

On an intellectual basis I agree that this is an intolerant attitude. But for all the "facts" you throw out, one speaks very clearly. No one has prevailed against the NY AOH on this matter, as they have in other cities. All that you cite just doesn't seem to wash.

With respect,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

Mick, lets try and simplify this one point at a time. Point ONE... In your opinion, is it mainstream in American constitutional law to grant to ONE religion and not to another an accomodation provided for by the state?

If the answer is no, this is in fact, not in keeping with the Constitution, then the Saint Patricks day parade should NOT be allowed by the city charter to use 5th Ave. on a weekday if that right is specifically denied to other religions.

Now, I will let you think about this and comment on it before we go to point number 2.

(Hint) Just because Judge Duffy says it is law, doesn't make it right. Remember, it was once the law that Black Americans where only 3/4 human....

Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Before we go on to point 2, the right march for the supression of the rights of a group in the US, I will remind you that if the law was a ball game, where the "looser" packs up and goes home, there would still be slavery in the US. Rather, there are times when obvious and mainstream ideas, such as people are not property, escapes self interested judges and one has to keep returning until they get it right.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM

Larry, save your patronizing shit for someone who wants to hear it. I know you like to impress us all with your name dropping and the fact that you are a JD, but let me assure you of one thing. I do not need you to come off as some smart ass with a comment like "let's simplify this". If seems to me that if you had such a good handle on the law you espouse, you would be practicing it. Now, I am sorry if that comes off shitty, but one good turn, eh.

You have no need to answer a question with a question. I understand completely about the civil rights laws and the injustices that spawned them. I have spent my life, a bit of my freedom, and a little blood in the fight for the rights of all people. I get it. I also have fought, and will continue to fight on behalf of the civil rights of Gay/Lesbian folks. There is no excuse for a system which condones systematic discrimination on any person on the basis of what they were born to be. So no lectures are needed by me from you about the struggle. I know this might be hard for you to believe, but there are probably a number of folks on this forum that have spent as much time, or more, as you in fighting on behalf of the civil rights of any number of groups.

Back to the issue. If you believe so strongly that this judge is wrong, then put your money where your mouth is and carry on the fight. But as of now, better barristers than you have found that given the evidence and the way it is run, the AOH has the right to run its parade and is within the laws and statutes of NYC, and the State of New York.

Is it right? NO, emphatically NO. Is it legal. Yes. That was my point before, and is now. Does the word obfuscation mean anything to you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:34 AM

This may be a dumb question, but if it has been established as a parade for Catholics, are Irish Catholic gays allowed?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:44 AM

It is not a parade for Catholics, kat. It is a St. Patrick's Day parade, sponsored and paid for by an Irish Catholic organization in celebration of the Feast Day of St. Patrick. That organization, I am sure, has gay members like any other organization. They would just march with their respective Division. What is not allowed by the sponsoring group is a group which flaunts its homosexuality. In my mind, that is a wrong headed response to this situation, but that is the choice they made.

My response to Larry is due to his patronizing comments, and his assertion that this is illegal, when the courts have repeatedly said that it is not. There are mitigating factors in this case that set it apart from other cities where the Irish Lesbian/Gay Organization (ILGO) are allowed to march. If the NY AOH had just let it be, you wouldn't be hearing any of this. But the bottom line is, they pay for it, and they have the right to say who is in it.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: matai
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:12 AM

Do I understand from this discussion that gays and lesbians are banned from the parade, under the auspices of their banner because it would be a flagrant statement of their being in the state of mortal sin? And that it okay to march surreptitiously as a gay because you are not advertizing that you are in the state of mortal sin? How weird is that? And what about other marchers in the state of mortal sin? Or do they go to confession before they march? And do Catholics still believe in Mortal sin? Isn't this some kind of dark-age scenario being perpertrated by open and honest bigotry? And what has it really got to do with Saint Patrick? Isn't Saint Patrick being used unfairly to practise this form of bigotry?
Matai


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 02:15 AM

Matai, I did not mean to imply anything other than there are certainly gay men in the Hibernians, as there are in any other part of society. To think other would be naieve.

The rest of your post speaks to your intent, so I won't respond to that.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 07:21 AM

It's very infair those two Irish homosexuals John FitzPatrick & Patrick FitzJohn.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM

Thank you, Mick, I knew the general info about the case, but that does help to clarify the Catholic gays issue, though I wish you would NOT have used the word "flaunt" when referring to gays who want to march under their own banner.

kat


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:55 PM

Perhaps that was regretable, kat, but here is the point. In many of the actions that I have been involved with on behalf of Gay and Lesbian issues, it is not unusual for the gay activists to come "in drag" for lack of a better term, or to be very suggestive about their sexuality. I understand completely the statement being made, but it is a bit much to ask a religious organization, whose membership is made up of a large number of pre baby boom Catholic men, to accept any actions of that type in a parade that honors the Patron Saint of Ireland. Had I been involved with the negotiations, I would have sought middle ground, by appealling to the AOH on the basis of Christ's unflinching acceptance of all who sought his love. And I would have appealled to ILGO to mind the appropriate decorum for the event, and let their presence make the statement. I believe all parties could have reached resolution had the neck not been bowed so quickly on the part of the AOH, and had ILGO not decided on confrontation instead of negotiation.

I apologize for the use of the term flaunt. I should not write when I am tired and a bit edgy over current items in my life.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:15 PM

Frankly Mick:
I have always concidered you as a friend and responded to you in a polite way that responded to your contentions not your person. I am tempted to respond to your ad hominum attacks, but I wont be drawn into that follishness. As to patronising, the fact that you don't see civil rights law as a process, and a process that must struggle against the human foibles of judges, seems to be the point here. On certain facts, you are in fact in error. The AOL has changed its stand again and again to suit their bigotry in order to trim the message of the parade to fit a "legaly justifyable" excerise of bigotry. They did the same thing about Irish Republican contingents for years. I am sure they will continue to trim the message of their parade to fit their various bigotries and it does a lot to harm the view of Irish America in both Ireland and among progressive communities in the US.
I think the AOL and their supporters should go to Dublin one Saint Patricks Day and watch the crowds chear gay contingents. They should take Judge Duffy their with them, and if he stays, well, I think the US constitution would benifit.
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:27 PM

Larry, I have always considered you the same way. And yes, I was very angry when I read that comment. I shouldn't respond when I am angry. But your comment above appears to be clearly patronizing in nature. If you would like to acknowledge that and apologize for it, then to there and no further.

Again I point out to you that I agree with the fact that the AOH is in error, IMO, on the position they take. The Irish people of Dublin and other cities in Ireland are very tolerant on this issue. Further, that is a historical attitude among the Celts as well.

As I have stated before. I am in support of the Gay/Lesbian civil rights fight, have worked and will continue to work in support of this important issue. But until the other folks decide to step up and foot the bill and the organizing it takes to pull off this parade, it is the AOH's call. You have failed to answer the question I make about appealling the decision. Why has this not been done, if this is such an important issue? And if you are willing to generalize and call the AOH bigoted, then why aren't you in the forefront of the fight, donating your legal skills?

I repeat. There is a way to resolve this. It is not in the legal arena. It is legislative, and it is in negotiating.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:39 PM

Thanks, Mick, for acknowledging my concern. I feel sorry for the folks who are so bigoted they are threatened by folks coming out as they are and having fun, and, yes, I understand about the coming in drag probably being a bit much for some, but I still don't see that as a good excuse. Everyone dresses up for a parade, some just differently. I am not arguing with you or trying to educate you, 'cause I know you know, just stating my opinion, (like ya didn't know that, already, yeah?**bg**)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 03:48 PM

Well, (hand shakes back and forth...) as a matter of fact, the stratigizing on legal issues IS what I do, I don't litigate, not because I don't have the talent to do it, I kicked *ss in moot court, and lititgated in Native American courts successfully. I don't litigate because very few people do what I do, which is create legal stratigies for spesific marginalized groups, most of whom have no funding for their rights needs. As a result I organize, stratigize, testify, lecture in grad schools, conduct training for (for example) the justice department's staff in INS hearings, and that takes up a lot of time, especially when I have to scrounge for a living. No complaints, it is just I am called to an aspect of American law that doesn't pay. I turned down several lucritive jobs coming out of law school, because the phone whould keep ringing and as a litigator, I would not have the time to answer the needs of those folks who have depended on me.
As to what I have given to the ILGO and Green and Lavender's fight for inclution, I have done concerts for them, been a plaintiff in court for them (one of four "straight" plaintiffs on the issue) and continue to support the cause. As to appeal. One reason the community may not wish to appeal, (and they call the shots not me...) is that one times appeals in mind of where the Supreme Court is these days. Don't forget, this is the Supreme Court which ruled that it is constitutional to exicute an innocent person in the face of exculpitory evidence for the reason of judicial ecconomy...
AS to being patonizing. Rather than being patronising, I though that so much was being said on this, you may be missing the spesific point, and by separating them out, you could focus on the points one at a time, I did not mean by that to be patronising. SO, back to those points.
1. Gay rights are protected in New York City by some of the most unabiguous laws in the US.
2. As a result, one cannot discriminate againts gay people in public accomodations.
3. If the parade is a general public accomodation - defined as being open to Irish Americans, they could not discriminate
4. The AOL to get around this proclaimed the parade a Catholic event (in spite of the history of being started by Irish Protestants and still accomodating such contingents as the Yiddish Sons of Erin)
5. The parade is now, as a result, the only religious event provided with a unique right by the City Charter.
6. It is not a stretch to see this as a clear violation of the first amendments of both the NYS constitution and the Federal constitution, both of which contain the same clause against the establishment of a federal religion.
7. In every instance in the past the Supreme Court has ruled that the establishment clause is violated if one religion is given an accomodation not given to every religion.

If you missunderstood and felt I was being wise ass to you, I appologize for the missunderstanding, but I assure you I didn't mean to be patronising... just slow you down to look at this point by point.
Phone ringing... gotta go.
cheers
larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

Hello,
All of this discussion is quite interesting but time only permits me to come back to my thread and thank Brian for giving us the words. It took a while but the aim of the thread has been achieved. You catters can now take all the time you wish to continue debating this issue (as if I had any way or right to stop you before...hah,hah,ho). Mike Carbonneau


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:29 AM

MIKE! Sing the song in good health, Cheers and happy St. Patrick's day, Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Barry
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM

What a crock!!!

First of all St Patrick wasn't Irish

Second he wasn't Catholic

Third He may have been gay himself because there is no record of him ever marrying and he lived before the stupid celibate clergy rules.

From a straight irish catholic


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

Barry a mhic... you hit the nail on the head. Pass the crock to a straight Irish Protestant. Slan go foil, Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:04 AM

Thanks, Barry, for enlightening all of us poor and ignorant folks. I am not sure how we all got along before someone with your absolute knowledge of all that is important came along. NOT!

Now, sit down, grab yourself a Coke, and smile. There you go.

I know that this is hard for you to get, but everyone knows that St. Pat wasn't Irish (or should I say Oirish so you get it?). No one here suggested any different. But what he is, is one of the three Patron Saints of Ireland. Quick ..... can you tell me the other two? Good lad.

Second, you are right and wrong on your contention about his Catholicism. I will begin with the wrong part. He was a Bishop of the Catholic Church. That means he absolutely was a Catholic. You are probably correct in that he wasn't really what we would call a Roman Catholic as he was monastic (as was the Irish Catholic "church" at the time). The Roman Church, much later (probably 700 or 750 years after Patrick) took control of the Irish Church, and established itself as the dominant form. I have heard conjecture that Patrick would have become a Protestant had he been alive. I don't know if that would be true, as no one does. It is conjecture, nothing more. But the fact that he was a Catholic of his times cannot be disputed.

For what it is worth, the Irish Catholic Church, IMO, should have survived. It incorporated many of the much older teachings in a way that makes a great deal of sense to me. I have, and continue to study the teachings of Patrick and his followers, and find they are more in line with my own personal sense of faith and beliefs. This subject could be a whole website of its own.

Third, you indicate he may have been gay. Right. But there is no record of that, nor is it important. Using intellectually correct rules of debate, your comment is known as a gratuitous assertion.

But thanks for jumping in,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

By the way, Larry, those Irish Protestant's you are so proud of in NYC .... are they the same ones who were trying to burn down the Irish Catholic Churches? Just wondering, old buddy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:20 AM

Further, Larry old chum, could you give me some cites for your contention that the parade was started by Irish Protestants? All references I can find indicate that the parade as we know it, goes back to 1848 and was started by Catholics. There were earlier, smaller events, one as early as 1737 in Boston.

This isn't that big of a deal, but I am interested in knowing what your sources are for your contention.

Thanks,

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

Hi Mick, Bridget and Colm the narrow, (wink) and yes, the self same Protestant whose builet marks can still be seen on the walls of old Saint Patricks in Little Italy, but also the same as our dear brother Thomas Addis Emmitt, brother of Robert Emmitt burried at St. Marks in the Bowery. According to the late, great Paul O'Dwyer the parade was begun Irish protestants in New York ... I forget if it was pre-revolution or around 1798. I seem to remember him saying that the first parades where during the occupation in the 1770s. I'll call some of the lads at his office. Finally, don't look to the past for moral judgement, all our families behaved badly at times and well at times... remember Ballyseedy.

Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM

Agreed, Larry, that many groups have acted badly. Further agreed that many of Ireland's greatest heroes were Protestant. The reason I ask for the cites is because there were many earlier parades, and several that were held in the 1700's. But most serious scholars indicate that the current parade was started in 1848, and has been held in succession since then. It is more correct, IMO, to indicate that Protestants held St. Pat's Parades, than to say this one was started by Protestants. Not that it makes a bit of difference to the discussion, but an interesting sidestreet to wander down.

I wish the lads in NYC would wake up and see that there policy, while legal, is really silly, never mind bigotted.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM

is it safe to dispense with the flak jackets now guys?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM

MMARIO, my good friend, makes a valid point. I am sorry for my outburst of 05 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM. While I believe I have taken the correct stance on this issue, my response certainly did nothing to further the discussion. In fact, I said some things which, in retrospect and reflection, I see now to be hurtful. INOBU has been a member here a long time, is always interesting, and has no history of being patronizing. I should have given him the benefit of the doubt, rather than flying off. I would like to be able to say I was just tired (I was), or that I have much on my mind (I do), but none of that excuses poor manners, or lack of consideration. I do believe in responding in kind where merited (see GUEST,Barry post and response), but nothing that our Larry Otway (INOBU)has done in the past would indicate that he meant to be patronizing. I am sorry.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:46 PM

Hey Mick! Wish you where in New York on the 17th, no offence taken and the first round would be on me. I'm a cheep date, bad liver, can't even drink diet coke anymore... so make mine (shiver) WATER! How low I have sunk.
Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:22 AM

Formerly Guest Barry

Big Mick, what a suitable handle for someone who jumps to conclusions as you do with your OIRISH dig.

I'll tell you what, I don't have any more of an inside track on our patron saint than anyone else, but I know a line of rubbish when I see it. For example, from "authoritative" sources I have it that he was born in Scotland / Wales / England / Cornwall / France. Most agree that he was the son of a wealthy Roman official, but others claim his daddy was a Briton and a churchman and his grand-daddy a priest (now there's an auspicious beginning to the church in Ireland). Almost all sources suggest that he was captured during a raid by Irish pirates / brigands / robbers / ne'er-do-wells who sold him into slavery in Antrim. But Irish folklore as recorded by the Annalists (who were invariably priests) attributes his capture to Niall Mór (Niall of the Nine Hostages) who was a bit of a step above pirate, being High King of Ireland. And, as his name suggests, Niall had a tendency toward taking hostages rather than slaves, so Patrick's Daddy either wasn't as rich as is claimed, or didn't give a toss about his son, as he apparently didn't or couldn't fork over the ransom. It is generally agreed that Patrick was sixteen when captured and remained in Ireland for six years, after which time he escaped. But his six years in Ireland had apparently imbued him with the, now legendary, Irish homing instinct. Rather than taking the short trip from Scotland / Wales / England / Cornwall / France, he decided on the scenic route (another Irish trait) and came back via Rome, becoming a priest en route. On fire with the Christian spirit, he returned to Ireland to convert the pagan natives, which task he achieved singlehandedly, using various forms of trickery including snake banishing, bonfire lighting and slight of hand with shamrocks. By the time of his death, the whole island was converted and the Irish went on to further convert the rest of the world! Sorry, but this simply doesn't wash. Though Ireland is not big, there is no way that one man could walk it in a lifetime, taking sufficient time to convert everyone he met along the way. My gut feeling on Patrick is that he was probably a good story teller. The native Irish liked nothing more than a good story - in fact the same holds true today. The story of Christianity, (and Patrick was a Christian not a catholic and also an evangelist rather than monastic) even if you are not Christian, is a good one. I can picture in my mind's eye Patrick sitting around the fire in the evening relating the stories of the bible to the locals of the day and their being fascinated by them. The Irish never had much of a written tradition and employed bards to pass down their folklore. After hundreds of years of spinning the same yarns, these guys must have been thrilled to have a new story to tell. I have to believe that this is how Patrick managed to spread his message. As it spread, it became intermingled with the local lore, so Yule became Christmas, the goddess of Spring was replaced by Mary (later repersonified as Saint Brigid), etc. Side note: the Roman Church was very much male oriented, but the Celtic Irish viewed men and women as equal, which view persisted in Brehon Law up until the arrival of the Normans in the 12th century. I am convinced that it was the Irish missionaries who later spread out all over Europe, that elevated the position of women within the church and elevated Mary and the female saints to recognised positions.
So, my take on St. Patrick is that there probably was such a person but that the man honoured today and about whom all the various stories are told is probably an amalgam of many people.
Some observations about Saint Patrick's Day - March 17th
1. It is basically an American Holiday. Americans who come to Ireland for the day must be really disappointed. The last time I actually watched a parade (in Dublin) I really felt sorry for the poor majorettes, with their short skirts and bare legs being blasted by icy snow showers.
2. The legend that "real" shamrock only grows on Irish soil is nonsense. All species of Trifolium and Medicago (the botanical species worn as shamrock) will grow practically anywhere. It's almost impossible to find growing wild in Ireland before March 17th, but from March 18th onwards it spreads like wildfire - especially in my lawn and flower beds.
3. The best way to spend St. Patrick's Day is in front of a nice fire, outside of a nice hot whiskey!
4. In Ireland, corned beef, cabbage and potatoes is NOT the traditional St. Patrick's Day meal. In fact, corned beef is almost impossible to find outside Dublin. Bacon and cabbage is probably much more traditional, but there is no traditional St. Patrick's Day meal.
5. Green beer is an American invention. The only time I ever saw green beer in Ireland is when I once left an undrunk pint sit undisturbed for a month.
6. The coming of St. Patrick's Day is like a starter pistol to Irish politicians in their lemming-like rush to evacuate the country.
7. St. Patrick's Day is, to the Irish tourism industry, a bit like Groundhog Day to Americans. They look outside and if they don't see the shadows of tourists, they go back to sleep for another six weeks.
8. Patrick is no longer the most popular personal name for boys in Ireland - it is Connor. Don't get me started on Saint Connor!

Finally back to the "OIRISH" jibe - since my family can trace its history back to the aforementioned Niall Mor and since I choose to run a business in and contribute to the development of rural Ireland rather than cry in my beer in New York then I can but conclude your comment lives up to your handle.

Sorry about the delay in responding but I keep busy.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:33 AM

Thank you, Barry, for confirming what I said about you. You choose to restate in 1000 words or so, what was already said in 30 or 40. But if you felt the need to share with us the same info, and manage to slip in your genealogy, that is fine. By the way, your analysis is very much your opinion and not shared by a ton of scholars, but it is your analysis. So let me summarize. Everyone here already knows that Patrick wasn't Irish. By the way, you didn't answer the question about the other two Patron Saints of Ireland.

Most of the information you have shared with us is available from any number of books available at any Irish gift shop in the US. Most of us already know that Corned Beef and cabbage is not an Irish dish, but can you tell me why the Irish in the States adopted it?

I have not drank more than 5 green beers in my life, the beer I drink is lovely, luscious, and brown.

My point is this, Barry. You jump into a serious discussion and throw out obvious statements that a reading of the thread would have told you weren't needed. But to know that you would have had to read it. You were more interested in hearing the sound of your own bodhran. And, it appears, you still are. Fair enough. But why don't you try jumping in, reading the thread, and seeing if you have something to contribute. Remember that means being informed, taking a stand based on priniciple, .... oh, yeah ..... and apologizing when you have made an error. Works better than just trying to demonstrate how "oirish" you are.

If you would like to discuss this in private, PM me. You seem like a person who is proud of his ethnicity, as I am. Perhaps we can start PM'ing back and forth and resolve this between us instead of boring folks in the thread. Your call.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,barrygeo
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:47 AM

Big Mick States
"The Irish people of Dublin and other cities in Ireland are very tolerant on this issue. Further, that is a historical attitude among the Celts as well."

Since you are so obviously intelectually superior to a poor Paddy like me you might then explain why there is such a huge increase in racial intolerance in Dublin, Galway and Limerick. It seems to me that it might be the same attitude that leads us to exclude Gays and Lesbians from a parade.
You are factually incorrect to describe Ireland as the celts. In fact the Celts were the last of seven? races to colonise Ireland. Some of the others were if memory serves me right Formorians, Nemesians, Fir Bolgs and Tuatha de Dannan. In later times we were also colonised by The Vikings and the Normans not to mention the plantations. So the current Irish race is a bit of a mixture and not the pure race you describe.
Also if I remember correctly the Celts were not particularly tolerant of the De Dannan whose Spiritual wisdom they feared.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM

OK, OK, Barry ... your only answer seems to be to pull stuff out and demonstrate your historical superiority. You do so by stating the obvious. Good man you are. I bow to your clearly superior knowledge of Ireland. I dti/r na ndall is ri/ fear na leathshu/ile.

You seem not to be able to get the point. This isn't about your, or my, knowledge of the history of the land of our Grandparents. It's about jumping into a discussion with specious facts and then taking umbrage when getting called on it. I am not going to continue to debate this here, nor in a PM. If you want to talk history, start a thread and I will go with you as deeply into it as you like. If you want to talk about your first post and how it got you the response it did, PM me. No more hijacking this thread, by me or you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM

The Irish saved civilization. I've never been welcomed so warmly nor treated so well as on my three trips to Ireland. The country is booming for the first time in centuries, God bless 'em; they produce more software than the US if you believe what you hear. The US would never have been the country it is without the Irish immigrants (nor any of the others I must add). I don't mean to stereotype, but I've developed the impression they love words and a good argument.

If we're ever in a bar all together, I'll buy the first round.

Isn't it time to give this a rest?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:51 PM

The coversation took a different turn, but back to the song and the original issue...this is a very funny song, and somebody needed to sing it!! But seriously, homosexuality is a blatant sin condemned by the Bible and the GOD who is going to judge us all when we die. Yes it is your choice if you want to sin and defy Him, but it's a pretty dangerous game to play. Maybe you're right and there isn't a God, but what if you're wrong?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

And maybe God is going to shake her head at you Guest, guest and ask why did you deny God's good work in making your beautiful gay brothers and sisters? Or to put it more simply, what makes you so sure God fits in the box you put him in? Yours in the light, Larry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:42 AM

Well, there hasn't been nearly enough controversy in this thread for a while. So, speaking of minorities in Ireland, let's not forget Robert and Ben Briscoe (father and son, former Lords Mayor of Dublin--or is that Lord Mayors?), and Leopold Bloom, of course. There's an interesting discussion here.
I'm particularly heartened by what seems like a singular lack of prejudice against this particular minority in Ireland, unlike the situation in some other countries in Europe.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

The Irish in Ireland obviously don't feel threatened. And why should they? It's the wanna be Irish elsewhere who seem to have a problem with it. Ah well their loss.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 09:19 AM

Guest, a chara, Ceart go lear, Is mise, le meas, Lorcan.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,dan
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:50 PM

I have the song. On my computer. Want it?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 06:08 PM

YOU CAN'T BE IRISH IF YOU'RE GAY

We'll be coming down Fifth Avenue upon St. Patty's Day
A great day for the Irish all across the U.S.A.
But begorrah, what is this I hear, this cry and ballyhoo?
There's a bunch of queers that are getting us scared that say they're Irish, too.

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
He won't be wanting you marching upon St. Patty's Day.
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay.
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

Now the Order of Hibernians, those eminences gray
Have delivered this pronouncement upon the Blessed Day
Sure, a little bit of heaven found nestled in the sea
But you're going straight to hell for homosexuality

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
That was their pronouncement as the pipes began to play
You can be a con a mafia don we'll laugh it all away
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S spells lesbians
Choose another woman for to mate with
Divil a man can ever get a date with
L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S we say
It's a shame that these dames want to come out and march with us
Lesbians-no way!

Well Just as Cardinal O'Connor is bound to set us straight
It's boyos like the Kennedys that made this country great
We don't allow no Peter pan a wearin' of the Green
And when we say "Up the Irish", that isn't what we mean.

Oh, God loves the Irish as long as Men are Men
Except of course, for leprechauns we've never been sure of them
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay
But you can't be Irish
You can't be Irish
Don't dare to be Irish if you're gay


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: framus
Date: 08 Mar 11 - 08:39 PM

Dear Guest.
Try the Cube or the Queen's(yes, really) Bar in Belfast. You might learn something!


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