Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay

Subject: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:10 PM

Looking for the words to this song....don't know the writer...this may not even be the title, but it was on a CD called "Laugh Tracks" (I believe)which was a composite of live humorous songs put out after a workshop of comical songs. It's a very witty reference to the problems that occurred when Gays tried to march in the St Patrick's Day parade (I believe it was in NYC.)

Some lines were..."you can be a bum, a bucket of scum, who sits around all day, but you can't be Irish if you're gay" [something like that. Does anybody have the words?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:22 PM

I just looked up the Laugh Tracks II CD on Google and found out that the song is titled "God Loves The Irish" and it's by a guy called ???? Carlson.   Does anybody know the words?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:01 AM

WEll, a leprechaun is an Irish fairy...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:01 AM

I don't know the song, but I am familiar with the issue: the many unsuccessful attempts by the Irish Lesbian and Gay Organization to march under its own banner in New York City's Saint Patrick's Day Parade. I should say the Manhattan parade, because there are other Saint Patrick's Day Parades throughout the city, and the one in the Borough of Queens has always welcomed ILGO. How appropriate! :-)

The exclusionary parade in Manhattan is sponsored by the Ancient Order of Hibernians, and the courts have repeatedly ruled that it is up to AOH to determine who can and who cannot march. As things stand now, if Sir Roger Casement were to arise from the dead, the AOH would tell him to piss off.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 11:06 AM

I don't know who the singer is but it appears on Schooner Fare's 25th anniversary album. You could get a copy from Outer Green Records.

Peace to all,

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:03 PM

This page says it's on the 20th Anniversary Party CD by Schooner Fare, which is no longer available. The songwriter was Rob Carlson, a guest performer at the party. Schooner Fare called it "You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay" on their CD. It could well be called "God Loves The Irish" on Carlson's recording, as MickyMan says.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:35 PM

Janice, I understand your point about Casement, but you are missing a very big point. Whether I agree or disagree with the AOH is not the point. The reason they have been successful in controlling their parade, when other cities have not, is because they pay for it. Other cities where there was municipal money involved were forced to allow ILGO to march under their own banner. That was entirely appropriate. But it is also appropriate for an organization that is paying the freight to make the rules. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

I happen to believe that the AOH, of which I am a member, is wrong on this issue. As a State Organizer I tell them so. But they pay the way. You don't have to like it, you just aren't entitled to force them to send a message that they don't want to send. It's their gig.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:11 PM

Mick, you're not allowed to bar black people from a restaurant even if you own the restaurant. A parade, no matter who pays for it, is a public event.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Van
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:19 PM

What about Graham Norton then.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:22 PM

"Mick, you're not allowed to bar black people from a restaurant even if you own the restaurant. A parade, no matter who pays for it, is a public event."

So, just to be respectfully argumentative, if the NAACP is marching in honor of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday, by your reasoning they'd have to accept a delegation from the KKK in their parade?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 02:31 PM

Well... THE AOH and the City of New York should read the Constitution of the State of New York and USA. No religious event should have an accommodation other religions do not, they get (in the City Charter) the right to close 5th Ave. on a weekday. No other religious parade in the city has that right. However, if they were a non-sectarian parade they would not have the "right" to break the law (i.e.: exclude Gay contingents) under the New York City and State human rights law, however, they get around this by saying they are a historically and presently religious event, and Catholic at that. Bunk. In that case, march on the weekend, and historically, WE IRISH PROTESTANTS began the parade, and it is our holiday as well.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 05:52 PM

Is the AOH allowed to march in the Gay Pride Parade? If they are banned
would it not piss them off? :-}

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:04 PM

Not just my reasoning, Strick. It's the law.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: Lyr Add: HEY RONNIE REAGAN (Christy Moore)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

HEY RONNIE REAGAN
(c) Christy Moore

I remember the show twenty-one years ago,
When John Kennedy paid us a visit.
Now the world's rearranged - not improved, only changed -
But our heart's in the same place - or is it?

CHORUS: Hey Ronnie Reagan, I'm black and I'm pagan,
I'm gay and I'm left and I'm free.
I'm a non-fundamentalist environmentalist.
Please don't bother me.

You're so cool, playing poker with death as the joker.
You've nerve, but you don't reassure us.
With those paranoid vistas of mad Sandinistas,
Are you really defending Honduras?
You'll be wearing the green down at Ballyporeen,
The town of the little potato.
Put your arms around Garret and dangle your carrot,
But you'll never get me to join NATO.

CHORUS

Do you share my impression the world's in recession,
There's rather too much unemployment?
Still with Pershing and Cruise we'll have nothing to lose,
But millions in missile deployment.
We can dig shelter holes when we've bartered our souls,
For security then we can shovel.
While the myth of our dreams turns to nightmares, it seems,
From the White House straight back to the hovel.

CHORUS

Since the Irish dimension has won your attention,
I ask myself just what's your game.
Do your eyes share the tears of our last fifteen years,
Or is that just a vote-catcher's gleam?
Your dollars may beckon, but I think we should reckon,
The cost of accepting your gold.
If we join your alliance, what price our defiance,
What's left if our freedom is sold?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey.
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:40 PM

I am Irish and not gay, but I am proud to know friends who are.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: paddymac
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:59 PM

Our Emerald Isle Society here in Tallahassee is coming up on our fifth St Paddy's Day parade. Last year, the then-new mayor was grand marshal. He traces part of his ancestry back to Cork, but many folks don't get past the more visible African part. Same might be said about our current Secretary of State, Colin Powell. Bigotry is blind and stupid. But, sadly, it also seems to be seems to be wide-spread among all the peoples of the earth.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:16 PM

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities of all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority in the past.

That's good enough for me!

And yes, the Gay and Lesbian Pride Parade would certainly welcome a contingent from AOH. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "You can be in my parade if I can be in yours."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Joe_F
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:30 PM

I have read that in Dublin there is no difficulty with gays marching in the St Patrick's Day parade. In New York, of course, they know better.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM

This is a real eye opener. I never for one moment thought New York was so backward. How sad and extremely off putting.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 08:49 PM

THE Pat Cooksey? Welcome to the Mudcat! (Oh...just checked and I see you've been here before. Well, welcome anyway.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:13 PM

The song can be found on the album by Modern Man---The Wide Album is its title.   

A brilliant piece of humor with Rob Carlson--I believe--the author. The group consists of Rob Carlson, David Buskin, George Wurzbach.   

If they are ever in your area---prepare to see and to laugh.


The link to the website for the recording is

www.modernman3.com

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM

Bill are Modern Man the ones who did "My Father Looks Like Moe"? I heard that one on WKSU.org. (By the way, here's a better link to the Modern Man website.)

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:44 PM

I want to be very clear here. I do not support this policy. But I am stating that the courts have determined that the AOH pays the freight and they have the right to set the rules, no matter how silly they are, as long as they do not violate civil rights laws. Want this to change? Then elect lawmakers that pass laws that represent people. Quit going for the red herrings tossed to you designed to wedge you away from your own natural political allies.

Mark, I note (with respect) that you didn't answer the question posed to you with regard to NAACP parades. Of course a group can control its own event, so long as it is paying the way. You can't discriminate on the basis of race because that is illegal. Many of us (myself included) have worked for years to add sexual orientation to the list. But as of now it is not covered.

The position I have taken with the AOH has been, and remains, that this is a secular event with its origins in religion. It is about being Irish, and they should welcome all people that are celebrating that heritage. I do believe they have the right, and properly should, make sure all entrants meet certain standards in the parade that they are paying for, but these standards should NOT include a sexual orientation proviso.

Larry, once more, interprets the law in ways that the courts do not. This issue has been to the bar, and ILGO lost.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:09 AM

Guest, Van, thanks for the chuckle. What about Graham Norton, indeed.**bg**

Goodonya, Mr. Cooksey!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:20 AM

From the one line quoted, the song sounds like a nasty piece of work.

Yes, of course gay people should be able to march. Why on earth not?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:10 AM

WHO is Graham Norton????????

d

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:33 AM

One of the funniest, chatty show-hosts of tv...from Ireland, in London, on BBC and BBC-America. He's outrageous, adorable, and an expert at getting people to reveal the most naughty things.**bg** Check out some of the archives by clicking here. And, oh, yes, he IS gay.:-)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 04:39 PM

From the one line quoted, the song sounds like a nasty piece of work.

I wouldn't worry JTT. I haven't heard the song, but I'd be pretty certain that the line is meant to be taken ironically.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:39 PM

Big Mick writes..."
Larry, once more, interprets the law in ways that the courts do not. This issue has been to the bar, and ILGO lost."

Mick, a mhic... the law is all about interpretation. The case which bears my name, Otway v the City of New York, was a different issue, the above issue is the one I wished to litigate, a provision in the city charter. My dear friend Bill Kunstler instead focused on the fact that cops in uniform march in the parade. I didn't think it was the way to go, but, hell I was a second or third year law student and Bill was Bill. I don't think it would have mattered, as the case went before Judge Keven Michael Patrick Duffy... guess how he felt about things? Frankly, I think an Irish American judge should have recused himself... but the bottom line with Judge Duffy is that he is a tad conservative. Frankly, the civil rights law and the State Constitution 1st amendment is not very ambiguous, but to say that I have odd views of the law, hell, don't forget the 14th amendment was not applied to Black Americans for nearly one hundred years... is it wrong headed of me to feel that 1. A gay rights law should protect gay rights, and 2. There should be a separation of church and state... ah shucks, I guess I am just trippin' up the stairs.
Cheers,
Happy St. Pat's
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

I found the CD and can post the words later.

Síocháin dhaoibh,

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: MickyMan
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Wow....I'm finally back tending my thread and it certainly makes for interesting reading. Just to keep the road clear for Rob Carlson, the song is definitely tongue and cheek and I'm looking forward to playing it in Irish-American folk venues because I think it is something that still needs to be pondered by the public. It's right up there with Stan Roger's song about not giving $$$$ to the IRA.
    I was kind of hoping that the problem had been solved since the song's writing but this does not seem to be the case.
By the way folks, I'm still waiting for the *#$@^% words. Stop politicizing this thing in print and let's get it sung about far and wide. GET ME THE WORDS!!!!! You heard me. I REALLY WANT THE WORDS !!!!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

Yes, Mark, they are the group that did the "Moe" piece. That one was written by Geo. Wurzbach.   It is amazing the various styles of music they can do and the wit with which they can spoof different genres. "Bumper Huntin' in Tennessee" spoof Bluegrass and then there is Suring Music with Channel Surfing USA.

And--JTT---it is not a nasty piece at all. What it is is a satirical piece meant to criticize ===as they say--"...the grey eminences of the Order of Ancient Hibernians" in their exclusion of Gays.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM

But Still no words.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:27 PM

Well, to paraphrase a well-known physician, "Dammit, Mick, I'm a doctor, not a lawyer!" -- and I'd do well to keep my mouth shut on legal issues.    Interesting discussion, all the same. And thanks for the info, Bill...sounds like those guys are definitely worth checking out. I loved "Moe".

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:31 AM

Dear Mick and Mark:
I do have a Juris Doctorate... so as Mark has passed on the NAACP question, let me offer the following. The question is must the NAACP allow the KKK to march in their parades. No, that is a civil parade and not a religious event, and as such, can tailor their member content to their message - basic first amendment law. Now, also the KKK is not a suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of any community of which I am aware. On to the St. Pat's parade. They acknowledge that if they were a general civil event parade, they cannot exclude on the basis of a protected groups rights. For example, the KKK cannot have a parade which states an exclusion in participation to Black Americans and get a parade permit in New York (as unlikely as that sounds). So... they declared themselves a religious event, making 5th Avenue a place of "Catholic religious expression." MY point, is that by so doing they loose rights extended to them not given to other religious groups, for example, YES they then have the right to exclude Gay contingents, however, then we few Quakers have the right to close 5th Ave. on a weekday and parade up 5th avenue as do all the other religions in New York. This is the basic difference between your idea of an unlimited 1st amendment and the law as generally accepted, but suspended in the case of this example of bigotry as expressed by one subset of the Catholic and Irish American community.
Cheers and Happy 17th all.
Larry
PS Don't forget to raise a glass to Roger Casement, Brendon Behan, Padraig and Willie Pearce, Oscar Wilde, Brendon Fey, Anne McQuire and many other talented and true hearted Irish hearts.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Brían
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:17 AM

Sorry I'm busy! I will get back to you!

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,Marc Bernier
Date: 02 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM

I'd like to see words to this song also.

Subject: Lyr Add: YOU CAN'T BE IRISH IF YOU'RE GAY (Carlson
From: Brían
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:46 AM

YOU CAN'T BE IRISH IF YOU'RE GAY
Rob Carlson

We'll be coming down Fifth Avenue upon St. Patty's Day
A great day for the Irish all across the U.S.A.
But begorrah, what is this I hear, this cry and ballyhoo?
There's a bunch of queers that are getting us scared that say they're Irish, too.

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
He won't be wanting you marching upon St. Patty's Day.
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay.
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

Now the Order of Hibernians, those eminences gray
Have delivered this pronouncement upon the Blessed Day
Sure, a little bit of heaven found nestled in the sea
But you're going straight to hell for homosexuality

Oh, God loves the Irish unless of course, you're gay
That was their pronouncement as the pipes began to play
You can be a con a mafia don we'll laugh it all away
But you can't be Irish if you're gay.

L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S spells lesbians
Choose another woman for to mate with
Divil a man can ever get a date with
L-E-S-B-I-A-N and S we say
It's a shame that these dames want to come out and march with us
Lesbians-no way!

Well Just as Cardinal O'Connor is bound to set us straight
It's boyos like the Kennedys that made this country great
We don't allow no Peter pan a wearin' of the Green
And when we say, "Up the Irish", that isn't what we mean.

Oh, God loves the Irish as long as Men are Men
Except of course, for leprechauns we've never been sure of them
You can be a bum, a bucket of scum, sure and that's okay
But you can't be Irish
You can't be Irish
Don't dare to be Irish if you're gay

Dyd-le-dee dydle-dee dye-dle dee, dye-dle dye-dle day!

Brían

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM

"The question is must the NAACP allow the KKK to march in their parades. No, that is a civil parade and not a religious event, and as such, can tailor their member content to their message - basic first amendment law. Now, also the KKK is not a suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of any community of which I am aware. On to the St. Pat's parade. They acknowledge that if they were a general civil event parade, they cannot exclude on the basis of a protected groups rights."

I think I almost have it. So you're saying that if the KKK had a parade on MLK Day (a la Skokie where the ACLU and the courts sided with their right to a parade despite their particular exclusivity) for example, they couldn't exclude the NAACP, since Blacks are suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of almost every community. Did I get that right? This only works one way? Would this apply to other civic events, as well. If I sponsored a rally in Central Park, for instance, I couldn't be sure I could decide who could or couldn't speak if there were the possibility of a "suspect class", say the Log Cabin Republicans, becoming involved?

I assume that a celebration of a Saint's day by Catholics has a fairly legitimate right to be considered a religious expression doesn't it? I mean it would be different if we were discussing the Protestant Orangemen since Protestants as a rule don't celebrate any Saint's day. When I celebrate Valentine's Day, for example, it's a purely secular thing. Is there something like the Zipper trademark case where once a religious event is celebrated by everyone, it becomes secular?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 01:21 PM

"I think I almost have it. So you're saying that if the KKK had a parade on MLK Day (a la Skokie where the ACLU and the courts sided with their right to a parade despite their particular exclusivity) for example, they couldn't exclude the NAACP, since Blacks are suspect class for discrimination under the civil rights laws of almost every community. Did I get that right? This only works one way? Would this apply to other civic events, as well. If I sponsored a rally in Central Park, for instance, I couldn't be sure I could decide who could or couldn't speak if there were the possibility of a "suspect class", say the Log Cabin Republicans, becoming involved?"

In effect, yes. There is balancing which goes on, one issue often raised is one's right to march vs. public safety. So, one may have a right to parade one's bigotry, however, the city does not have to allow you to do so anywhere you choose. So, if you intend to abridge others rights in conjunction with your parade, your rights may in turn be abridged. So, if the KKK wished to have an inclusive parade, they would access more rights than if they wished to exclude suspect classes for discrimination. But the law is not an absolute, which is why there are courts and judges, rather than computer forms. The law is pushed and pulled with the times - however, I think that judge Duffy strayed a bit far from the mainstream constitutional interpretation, but not on his own, Bill Kunstler (who I love admire and respect) could have cut closer to the constitutional issue by pointing to the city charter allowance for the parade's special circumstance. I think most would agree that if a parade is given special rights by a city, it should not have a message which pointedly excludes citizens who are peacefully expecting their full rights of citizenship.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

Umm, the Ku Klux Klan is an organisation devoted to suppressing the rights of black people, as far as I know.

Gay Irish people aren't trying to stop other Irish people having any rights, are they? Or have I missed something here?

(I'm bemused by GBH, sorry, I mean GWB, and his stance against gay marriage, by the way. I would have thought that marriage is a stabilising influence in society, so it would be a *good* thing if gay people were to get married. Strange to be so against this!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Strick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM

"Umm, the Ku Klux Klan is an organisation devoted to suppressing the rights of black people, as far as I know.

Gay Irish people aren't trying to stop other Irish people having any rights, are they? Or have I missed something here?"

Ah, but the question isn't who is for or against what, only that two organizations have equal rights to publicly express their opinions (the reason the ACLU supported the KKK in Skokie) and to associate with whom they please. Those are pretty well established Constitutional rights after all. It's the lack of equity that's confusing. I realize that rights are not absolute, but this seems reduce the rights of one these groups just because you don't agree with them.

In the case of the Saint Patrick's parade, those citizens are just trying to honor a religious belief that goes back roughly 2,500 years. It's your right to be as gay as you want; it's their right to think you live in sin and are going to hell, even if the idea's not universally popular.

"So, if you intend to abridge others' rights in conjunction with your parade, your rights may in turn be abridged."

Ah, a technicality. So by this reasoning it's reasonable for cities to create zones for protesters who could interfere with things like a WTO meeting?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM

What he said.

Well said, Strick. I think you have said precisely what I was trying to, but not doing very well.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 03 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM

"In the case of the Saint Patrick's parade, those citizens are just trying to honor a religious belief that goes back roughly 2,500 years. It's your right to be as gay as you want; it's their right to think you live in sin and are going to hell, even if the idea's not universally popular."

Well, the parade becoming a "Catholic" event goes back to the point at which the AOH punished one chapter for allowing ILGO to march with them under their own banner. At first the AOL said they could not march as there was a waiting list to join the parade, but, ILGO was always at the end of that list no matter how much time passed. So, one of the AOH chapters, Manhattan, I think, said they could march with them. AOH then went after the chapter and declared ILGO could not march, not because of a waiting list but because they were a Catholic event. My point, is at that point, they loose the right to use rights only granted to them under the city charter. It is hard to keep this point in your mind, here it is again... 1. Religious parade, CAN exclude gay marchers... but cannot have a special grant by the city given to no other religious parade, 2. Civil parade CAN'T exclude gay marchers yet CAN be the only parade to use 5th Ave. on a week day (other than Memorial day parade, also a civil parade...)

And, as a matter of fact the city DOES say where WTO demos can take place... often rather aggressively.

All the best, cheers, and happy St. Pats
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:53 PM

Larry,

The courts have found they have the right to control the march. You act as though you can change that here. My point is that if you were correct, and as committed as you try to portray here, then you would have prevailed. If not initially, then on appeal. You are wrong in this case. All your flailing around, my friend, does not change that.

On an intellectual basis I agree that this is an intolerant attitude. But for all the "facts" you throw out, one speaks very clearly. No one has prevailed against the NY AOH on this matter, as they have in other cities. All that you cite just doesn't seem to wash.

With respect,

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

Mick, lets try and simplify this one point at a time. Point ONE... In your opinion, is it mainstream in American constitutional law to grant to ONE religion and not to another an accomodation provided for by the state?

If the answer is no, this is in fact, not in keeping with the Constitution, then the Saint Patricks day parade should NOT be allowed by the city charter to use 5th Ave. on a weekday if that right is specifically denied to other religions.

Now, I will let you think about this and comment on it before we go to point number 2.

(Hint) Just because Judge Duffy says it is law, doesn't make it right. Remember, it was once the law that Black Americans where only 3/4 human....

Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: InOBU
Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

Before we go on to point 2, the right march for the supression of the rights of a group in the US, I will remind you that if the law was a ball game, where the "looser" packs up and goes home, there would still be slavery in the US. Rather, there are times when obvious and mainstream ideas, such as people are not property, escapes self interested judges and one has to keep returning until they get it right.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM

Larry, save your patronizing shit for someone who wants to hear it. I know you like to impress us all with your name dropping and the fact that you are a JD, but let me assure you of one thing. I do not need you to come off as some smart ass with a comment like "let's simplify this". If seems to me that if you had such a good handle on the law you espouse, you would be practicing it. Now, I am sorry if that comes off shitty, but one good turn, eh.

You have no need to answer a question with a question. I understand completely about the civil rights laws and the injustices that spawned them. I have spent my life, a bit of my freedom, and a little blood in the fight for the rights of all people. I get it. I also have fought, and will continue to fight on behalf of the civil rights of Gay/Lesbian folks. There is no excuse for a system which condones systematic discrimination on any person on the basis of what they were born to be. So no lectures are needed by me from you about the struggle. I know this might be hard for you to believe, but there are probably a number of folks on this forum that have spent as much time, or more, as you in fighting on behalf of the civil rights of any number of groups.

Back to the issue. If you believe so strongly that this judge is wrong, then put your money where your mouth is and carry on the fight. But as of now, better barristers than you have found that given the evidence and the way it is run, the AOH has the right to run its parade and is within the laws and statutes of NYC, and the State of New York.

Is it right? NO, emphatically NO. Is it legal. Yes. That was my point before, and is now. Does the word obfuscation mean anything to you.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:34 AM

This may be a dumb question, but if it has been established as a parade for Catholics, are Irish Catholic gays allowed?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: You Can't Be Irish If You're Gay
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 Mar 04 - 12:44 AM

It is not a parade for Catholics, kat. It is a St. Patrick's Day parade, sponsored and paid for by an Irish Catholic organization in celebration of the Feast Day of St. Patrick. That organization, I am sure, has gay members like any other organization. They would just march with their respective Division. What is not allowed by the sponsoring group is a group which flaunts its homosexuality. In my mind, that is a wrong headed response to this situation, but that is the choice they made.

My response to Larry is due to his patronizing comments, and his assertion that this is illegal, when the courts have repeatedly said that it is not. There are mitigating factors in this case that set it apart from other cities where the Irish Lesbian/Gay Organization (ILGO) are allowed to march. If the NY AOH had just let it be, you wouldn't be hearing any of this. But the bottom line is, they pay for it, and they have the right to say who is in it.

Mick