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Folklore: weirs -finally!
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Subject: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:34 PM Two days ago I read a mystery story (see the acronymn thread in BS) where a TV producer's corpse bobbed up against the weir in Bath. Today I downloaded a copy of "Salley Gardens," where grass grows on the weirs. What is it with Brits and their weirs? (I use the terms "Brits" to cover all inhabitants of the British Isles, a geographical entity.) Today I looked up weir in the unabridged dictionary. My fellow Americans, a weir can either a dam or a levee. So the producer came up against a dam in the book, and grass grows on the levees in the song. Finally, I can sing that rhyme with a clear conscience! |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Feb 04 - 12:47 PM Hi, leeneia - in this part of the U.S. (California), a weir is a low dam that often has water flowing over the top. I had a friend who liked to "shoot the weir" with his canoe on the Kings river near Fresno. I thought he was crazy to want to go over the top of the dam in a canoe, but he was an Okie country boy who liked that kind of thrill. That was in the mid-1970's. I wonder if there still are people in the Central Valley who speak with pride of their Okie heritage. I enjoyed my five years there, walking in the footsteps of Steinbeck and Saroyan and Woody Guthrie. I still think he was crazy. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: Geoff the Duck Date: 28 Feb 04 - 03:12 PM A weir isn't so much a dam as the overflow from a dam. A couple of examples would be :- 1) A watermill has a dam to hold back the water of a stream, so it can give a "head" to the wheel which powers the mill. Once the dam has filled with water, it needs to escape from the system, A weir was built, usually returning surplus water to the original course of the stream or river. With the industrial revolution, in many places (particularly in the North of England) woollen mills and cotton mills were powered by water turbines. These needed more than just a small stream, so a weir was built across the whole width of a decent sized river, giving a powerful force of water through a small inlet to the turbines. 2) Many of England's canals were built in a course which parallels a river. Some were "Navigations" which means that locks were built in a river, to "flatten" out the downward flow of the water. At a lock, there was the need to allow excess water to return to the next level of the now canalised river. If it flowed over the lock, it could prevent the lock being used. The solution was to divide the river into two channels. One goes to the lock, the other to a weir, which water flows over to the next level. Back to your songs / stories. At Bath, if the river is flowing slowly, the water running over the weir will not have had much force behind it, so floating debris such as branches (and corpses) will be caught by the lip of the weir. At high flow - they wash over. In the Sally Gardens, you refer to grass growing on the weir. In one sense a grass covered weir is a sign of dereliction. If it was built power a mill, and was still functioning, it would not be covered with grass, the water would wash any seedlings away. If, however, the mill had closed down, the water turbines would have been dismantled and part ot the weir might have been dismantled or broken away, so water runs through the gap left, and does not go over the weir. Hence it becomes covered with grass. In the song, (originally a poem by William Butler Yates - I believe) the grass on the weir is more likely to be growing on the edge of a weir on a slow flowing river - hence taking life easy. (strange people, these poets...). Hope this makes our use of weirs in literature a bit more obvious. Joe - weirs are commonly used over here by the nutters who paddle canoes. They use them on rivers which do not have white water rapids - probably don't have rapids because somebody dammed the river and built a weir - ironic eh! Quack!! Geoff the (aquatic correspondent) Duck. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: Cattail Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:20 PM Hi all Weirs were also used to oxygenate and clean the water passing over them, as in the case of rivers or streams that had cotton mills or dye works etc situated on them. The water tumbling over the edge and rushing down to the bottom where it hit the stream again would take in oxygen as it went, thus helping to keep the weed and other natural cleaning elements alive. This is why you occasionally see weirs which have stones embedded in the down-slope of them, which again helps to aereate the water more effectivly. Most of these types of weirs, (which don't appear to do anything), are to be found in the more industrialised areas. Cheers for now Cattail ! |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:47 PM There is a weir on the Bow River within Calgary (Canada) that is very dangerous. The water flowing over it is fast, and death is fairly certain to anyone swept over it. There are several types of weirs (as posts above show). In Alaska, fish weirs (an enclosure set in the stream) are used to catch fish. The type I have mentioned in Calgary constricts the flow where it is installed, often there is a small diversion at the weir to divert water for some purpose- agriculture, mining, etc. I believe that the diversion at Calgary has been abandoned, but not sure. Weir is one of the weird words in English that do not follow the rule- i before e except after c. I have not seen 'weir' used for a levee in the US, but I suppose it is possible. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: michaelr Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:06 PM It's a fairly common last name, I believe (Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead comes to mind). Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: kendall Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:08 PM In the northeast, a weir is a big circular fish trap made from poles and netting that is used to trap herring that come into the bays to spawn. It is an ancient method, and in recent years, the remains of such weirs have been found near Boston that were built by the native Americans thousands of years ago. Some years ago, I narrated a film called FENCE IN THE WATER. It was produced by Peg Dice at the University of Michigan. Bodacious Films, she called her company. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Feb 04 - 10:28 PM Kendall, the natives had them on the west coast and Alaska as well. Salmon were a target in the west. Didn't see "Fence in the Water," but I wonder if eastern salmon also were a target in the northeast. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Feb 04 - 01:01 PM My neighbor across the creek took his bulldozer down in the creek and has built up a weir over the last couple of years. We have a pond back there now, with a lot more birds and fish than in the past. It'll serve nicely for my pump for watering the lawn this year. Trash washes up along the weir and we go pick it up after rains. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:07 PM Yes, the dictionary also has "weir" meaning a device for trapping fish. I didn't mention it because I don't know a song with that meaning in it. "Weir" meaning "levee" is not usual, but it does occur. That's the meaning that makes the most sense in "Salley Gardens." A levee is abank that runs roughly parallel to a river and holds back floodwaters. Where I live, all the levees have grass growing on them. The idiots who wrote "drove my Chevy to the levee, but the levee was dry" probably come from somewhere like L.A. and have never seen a levee. Levees are SUPPOSED to be dry. As for riding a canoe over a weir, that's stupid. Canoes aren't safe boats to begin with, and there could be big rocks or a hunk of water-logged tree beneath the weir. Or a stolen car... |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Feb 04 - 03:31 PM This query reminds me of what happened in my village in Maine back in the 1940's. When one of local fishermen disappeared one night many years ago, the neighbors all expected that he had drown tending his fish weir. Cal was also known as a drunkard and everyone one knows that messing around with a skiff and drinking is looking for trouble. When Cal didn't show up the next day the neighbors began the search, looking for his skiff which was eventually found up the cove and grounded on the far shore. But there was no sign of Cal except for a half empty wine jug. Well, some continued to search along the shore while another group began dragging grapples through the weir. Long about evening Agnes, Cal's wife, heard a gentle knock on her back door and when she opened it there was a crowd of her neighbors standing there looking glum. She asked them if they had found Cal and the crowd parted down the middle and there was Cal stretched out on the cellar door drown dead, his body covered with starfish, crabs and one big lobster. So Agnes looks down at Cal, then looks at the crowd around her and says, "Well, boys, I guess we better strip off the take and set him again." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:24 PM Charley, that is AWFUL :) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Gareth Date: 29 Feb 04 - 06:49 PM But I suspect true ! Reminds me of an incident at the Upnor Sailing Club some years ago. I was acting as duty bosun, and keeping an ear on the VHF Radio whilst sitting in the bar. It was one of those days when it was better to be in the Club House wishing that you were at Sea, rather than at Sea, wishing that you were in the Club House. Over the VHF " Upnor etc. This is XXXXXX - I'am diverting to Queenborough, its bad out here !" " Upnor Club, This is AAAAAA - If XXXXXX don't make it can I have his dinghy parking space ?" Sorry for the drift ! Gareth |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: kendall Date: 29 Feb 04 - 07:24 PM Charlie, I'll do the jokes. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:33 PM ;~) Actually, they never did find Cal and my real memory is of the small raft of flowers that was launched at his memorial service. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Walking Eagle Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:42 PM Everyone knows about the weir on Rattys' beloved river in Wind in the Willows! Leena and Joe. Columbus, OH laid a large ( must have been a 32 incher ) storm drainage pipe in the Olentangy River about a half a block from my house. One day after a storm a canoeist, his boy, and their dog decided to shoot the weir. They hit at a VERY SLIGHT angle and got caught in the undertow behind the weir. All had PDFs on, even the dog. They were experienced canoeists. Only the dog survived. My unit was called out to the rescue and we lashed up ourselves with heavy rope, sling belts, and heavy blocks and pulleys on each side of the river. The rescuers had instructions to pull like hell on the pulleys should one of us go down. I went down and, thanks to trained rescuers, was pulled back up. We got the dad out of his death roll and put him on our floating sled to be pulled to shore. His son had gotten caught on a submerged log and we couldn't get him out until two weeks later. The poor dog was in a panic, nudging his owner trying to revive him. We had to tie up the Lab as he tied a number of times to swim out to his other owner. As long as I live, I'll never forget that day. SRS, If you get BEHIND your weir to clear trash, your nick name should be 'Silly' instead of Stilly. Maybe yours isn't very big. It certainly isn't round like a drainage pipe, so you are somewhat safer. But why mess with things? We'd like to have you on the 'cat for a long while. We like you too much to have something like this happen to you! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: RiGGy Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:37 PM I loved the smoked fish they made & served at Moran's on the Wier in Kilcolgan, at the head of Galway Bay on the Clare/Galway border. Caught right outside the window by the stone wall that blocked their migration route. Easy, but delicious pickin's ! Riggy |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: karen k Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:01 AM There's a book by Maine author Ruth Moore, Cold As a Dog and the Wind Northeast. Gordon Bok has recorded some of them including one called Charley Tended Weir. It's a good little book and Gordon recites them very well. Cold As a Dog and the Wind Northeast Hope this link works but in case it doesn't here's the address: http://www.gordonbok.com/zcoldasadog.html |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:30 AM That's a tragic story, Walking Eagle, and I sympathize with you. The memories must be very hard to bear. We get far too many fatalities in my part of the country from people taking chances in canoes. It's even worse when a fool risks his child's life and his dog's life. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:58 AM Walking Eagle, our weir isn't like what you describe at all. The creek is year-round, but it's small. And we simply walk across the top of it to pick up trash. When it's low the water tends to flow across on the other side of the creek (on the property of the guy who built the thing). I also used to do search and rescue--in my case, Mountain Rescue, in Washington State, and as a member of the staff in various parks and forests where I worked. I had to wade through an area flooded by beaver dams one night in a search for a boy, and it was the creepiest thing I've ever had to do. My kids have been read the riot act about never getting near the creek on rainy days, and also not getting near the creek on days when they have any inkling that there is rain anywhere in the area. Flash floods are a problem in Texas, as in many other areas of the Southwest. (W.E.--emphasis on "River SAGE"!) SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: The Shambles Date: 01 Mar 04 - 02:08 AM Just to confuse the issue. Here on Portland Dorset we have a floating prison ship. I don't know what it was called in the USA, where it came from about 8 years ago - but it was named Her Majesty's Prison Weare (HMP Weare). It was named after the rough land and plant growth that forms underneath the the island's cliffs. Hence we have East Weare, West Weare and Cheyne Weares. These are known as the Weares and my dog likes to walk on them very much. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: The Shambles Date: 01 Mar 04 - 02:12 AM Some photos and more info. http://www.geoffkirby.co.uk/Portland/690740/ |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Gurney Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:27 AM Remembered from an old Hornblower story. He went over a weir in a rowboat (in France, he was escaping) and got trapped at the bottom, nearly drowning. It appears that the water off the bottom barrel-rolls, but Horatio managed to take the odd breath and swim out of the trap. I suppose you could also bob at the top, depending on boyancy. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Charley Noble Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:49 AM "Charley Tended Weir" by Ruth Moore is one of Kendall's favorite stories to recite. Always gets a chuckle. But poor little mermaid... Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:02 PM Google search on weir. The little weir my neighbor built in my back yard (and his). Photo 1 and Photo 2. As you can see, ours hardly counts--its a stack of rocks pushed up with a bulldozer to keep the water level stable behind it. There is more water running over than usual because it rained yesterday morning. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:18 PM Shambles, I had to look up weare, which spelling of weir is unknown over here. I found scanty information, but a system of weirs and obstacles (ridges), with overflows, etc., were built at several ports as a form of fortification. Sounds like Portland was one of these sites. In 1610, someone complained that the movement of salmon was impeded on the Wie (haven't looked this up) by weares that were constructed there. Any more information? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: The Shambles Date: 01 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM The Weares are a natural formation but the name may have come from some artificial local construction. Above the naval dockyard was a fortification called The Verne which was built to keep out Napoleon. This is also now a prison but many of the words used in fortification are still in use as place names. Glacis for example - so this could explain the use of the word Weare. The following will explain why the formation occurs. http://www.swgfl.org.uk/jurassic/geoland2.htm A bit more general info on how the stone was quarried and added to the natural process of forming the Weares. http://psqt.org.uk/iq/bp.history_quarry.html |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Mar 04 - 03:34 PM Thanks, Shambles. Having been a geologist at one time in my life, the articles were very interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: kendall Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:38 PM Ruth Moore was one of the most interesting people I have ever met. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM "Weare" isn't in my unabridged dictionary, but I think it is related to "weir." Weir is one of these words with a long and complex family tree. It comes from the Anglo-Saxon wer-, to protect, and is related to the German wehren. So weir is related to the word Wehrmacht, which was (is?) the German army. Ultimately, the word is traced back to the Sanskrit vrnoti, "he keeps in." And of course, this is what a weir does - keeps water in the pond. Since the gigantic talus piles of the Weares both protect the cliff from erosion and hinder movement along the base, I believe they are bona fide members of the "weir" family of words. ---------- Thanks for the link to the geological site. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:31 PM Weare is in the Oxford English Dictionary. Weir also is a Scottish word for hedge. An odd use is for a pond for Baptist immersions. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Walking Eagle Date: 02 Mar 04 - 02:36 PM SRS, glad to see what your set up is. It's hard to tell just from writing. Now that you have explained a bit more, I know you are a wise and cautious woman! I am deeply sorry if I offended you. I truly meant it when I said that we would miss you on the cat if anything should happen to you. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 02 Mar 04 - 09:43 PM W E, there are plenty of Texans every year who decide they are immortal and can make it across that flooded road or bridge--reminders are always useful! (You could be giving me a hard time for calling that puny wall of rocks a weir, except that it isn't a dam, so there isn't much else to call it!) SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Franz S. Date: 02 Mar 04 - 11:04 PM LA does have levees along a number of (usually) dry river basins. When they are dry they are very very dry, but when they are wet they are HORRID! LA has not yet figured out how to deal with water that doesn't come from a pipe, but they're trying. Very Trying. I remember oh, 45 years ago standing alongside a weir on Eagle Creek, just off the Columbia near Bonneville Dam, watching hatchery employees harvesting the raw material for the salmon hatchery. The weir was truly full of salmon and the routine was for the workers to club the females and slit their eggs into 5 gallon buckets. Then they'd grab the males and milk them over the buckets. Stir the resulting mess and Bob's your uncle. Didn't save the salmon runs, though. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM A weir appears prominently in the story of Taliesin, the great Welsh bard. Now there are two versions of the story. (by the way, I am speaking from memory and dont speak Welsh so a few names may be a bit wrong). In one version Ceridwen is chasing little Gwion Bach, from llanfair Cereinion(a rather prosaic little place now, but perhaps more romantic in Ye Olde Days). anyway, after a lot of Celtic stuff, drops of poison, chewing his thumb for wisdom, changing into things and stuff, he eventually turns into a grain of corn. Quick as a flash ceriwen turns into a hen and eats gwion. This makes her pregnant, and she gives birth to to Taliesin(quite whym when it was gwion she swallowed, I'm not sure). Anyway, bear with me, we are getting to the weir bit. She puts the baby Taliesin into a leather bag and chucks him in the river, and he ends up on May morning hanging on a pole at the Garod Gwyddno Garanhir: that is to say, the fish weir of King Gwyddno Lonlegs. This weir is on the Dovey estuary, between Aberdovey and Aberystwyth. Now others tell the story quite differently, and have Taliesin going to visit Urien, King of Rheged(which is Cumbria in NW England now), and getting captured by Irish pirayes (same thing that happened to St Patrick). Anyway, out in the Irish Sea he sees an empty coracle floating by. he jumps out of the pirate boat and escapes in the coracle, and ends up(you've guessed it) hanging high and dry in the coracle as the tide goes out, on a pole at the fish weir of Gwyddno etc etc. The only other thing I know about weir is that Weir(English), Garod(Welsh, hope Ive spelt it right, might be Garog or Garoch or something), Crewe (town in Cheshire) and Penkridge(the kridge bit, town in Staffordshire) all share the same etymology, all meaning fish trap.( W,C and C transmuting freely into each other in the various Indo-European languages, just like Welsh, Gael and Celt). |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Jim Dixon Date: 03 Mar 04 - 03:20 PM I always thought the weir was the water behind the dam; the millpond, so to speak. Maybe I was completely mistaken. Doesn't the climax of Thomas Hardy's "Return of the Native" involve some people drowning in a weir? I read that book in high school, many years ago. It was probably the first time--and one of the few times--I've encountered the word "weir." If anyone remembers the novel more clearly than I do, perhaps you could explain exactly what happened. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 Mar 04 - 04:13 PM A word that's been kicking around since people spoke Sanskrit is bound to take on a number of meanings. Perhaps people did use weir to refer to the dam and to the water behind it. Thanks for the story about Taliesin. That was interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Peter Woodruff Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:18 PM I live on the Kennebec River in Maine, USA. Fisherman used to pay the town of Georgetown, Maine for the privelege of errecting a weir to suppliment their incomes during the salmon runs in the spring and early summer. My great uncle once stole a salmon from one of the local fisherman's weirs. Boy! did he make his mother proud. My great grandmother promptly return the fish to a fisherman named Todd. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Peter Woodruff Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:26 PM I mapped the ancient weirs of Sagadahoc Bay with a transit in the summer of 1997 as a research project for a paper I haven't written. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Art Thieme Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:24 PM I once found three frozen owl dungs and took 'em for diamonds. Had one set into a ring and proposed to a lady who did accept the proposition. Alas, it thawed out when the temperature rose and the engagement was soon terminated. Goes to show the dangers of having a pitcher full in your orange juice. Art thieme ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: greg stephens Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM In English, dam and weir can be used both for the bank that holds the water back, and the water that is held back. in the song "The Lambton Worm", the boy goes "fishing in the weir". In another song, "the miller was drowned in his dam", A fish weir is unusual, in that its main function is not hold the water back, but to let water through while holding the fish back. A good weir appears in the film "Kind Hearts and Coronets". Dennis Price is murdering all his relatives(all played by Alec Guiness) to get an inheritance. Hee kills one by unmooring the punt in which Alec Guiness is snogging his mistress on a dirty weekend by the Thames, and they both go over the weir and drown. Dennis Price stops himself feeling guity by saying "I was sorry to have to kill the girl as well, but I consoled myself by thinking she had already suffered a fate worse than death the night before". |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM Thank you, greg, for clearing that up. I enjoyed the story about the relative and the mistress, too. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 03 Mar 04 - 09:37 PM you spelled wires wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:42 AM Now that's really wired! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:15 AM Ha! |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Gurney Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:41 AM Greg Stephens. I always assumed that Bold Sir John went fishing in the River Wear, rather than the weir. Not that it matters. Good song, wish I could do the accent convincingly. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: George Papavgeris Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:40 AM Lovely thread...I did consider for a moment doing a "big fat Greek wedding" and starting to claim Greek origins for the word; but I took a deep breath and the devilishness left me. Or it might have been the Windex my wife sprayed me with. Seriously though, this is a very informative thread, and it takes me back 31 years to when I first joined the folk scene. Every day I would hear a new (to me) song, with some word I didn't understand (I'd only started learning English the year before). And so, day by day I would learn new words and expressions, colloquialisms, bits of history ("what was the Jarrow march?", "who was John Ball?", "what happened on St George's Hill?"). Slowly my English improved, and at the same time I was learning about the culture and history. The level of my English, and the fact that in later life I even ventured into songwriting, is ENTIRELY due to my involvement with folk music, and the help of the good people serving it, like yourselves. THANKS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:53 AM It is deeply offensive to call Irish people Brits. I think of a weir as a place where rapids have been replaced by a concrete or stone barrier which allows the water to slip over and tumble down in a waterfall or kind of roll down a hill. When I learned canoeing in my youth, going over weirs was one of the lessons. Here's an English canoe club's page with pictures of canoeists doing weir stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:56 AM Oh, and Donegal canoe club with lots of pictures. As for Yeats's "grass grows on the weir" image, when you walk by a weir, you can often see grass growing under the water, drawn flat by the action of the water and waving under the surface. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: greg stephens Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:13 AM Gurney: I think you are absolutely right and I was absolutely wrong. I was suffering from phonetic memory. We were all talking about weirs, and the phrase "went fishing in the weir" sprang into my mind and I typed it out. but given the geography of the song, the Wear is ssurely intended. the odd thing is I'm sure I understood it as Wear all my life. It was just talking about weirs made my brain scramble. However, that does not detract from my pointing out that dam and weir can both be used for the stretch of water, as well as the earthwork. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Dave Bryant Date: 04 Mar 04 - 05:45 AM Over here in the UK a weir is a sort of dam, sometimes fixed, but quite frequently adjustable in height which is used to control the flow or depth of a waterway. If you don't have them on a river, it will tend to flow fast and shallow and would not be very suitable for navigation by larger craft. On the upper Thames above Teddington (well there is a half-tide barrier at Richmond) there are weirs at regular intervals (usually about a mile or so) which keep the water deep enough for boats. Obviously these pose a barrier to navigation, so there is a lock at each to enable boats to get from one level to the other. This way the river is separated into a series of levels (or pounds) rather like stairs. The weirs are also used for flood control at times of heavy rainfall or flow. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:38 AM And the dreaded Weir Wolf? Don't go down to the shore at night alone when there's a full moon... Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM JTT, if you're addressing Americans about "canoes over weirs" we are imaging a really looney stunt bound to break both boat and boater. Looking at your link, I see that these are in fact kayaks, an entirely different proposition because they are a different kind of boat. Kayaks are enclosed, are made of different materials, and are responsive to stunts that canoes can't contemplate. El Greko, I have also found this an informative thread. The etymology of the words reminds me of my father's interest in both folksongs and word origins. He would not weiry of sharing such things with us. SRS |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 04 Mar 04 - 01:13 PM Dave Bryant "over here in the UK a weir is a sort of dam" (specifics). Please tell the Oxford English Dictionary to expunge all of the other usages prevalent in the UK and the British Isles from its discussion of the term. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM I'm sure that the word weir as used today almost always means a dam. When I started this thread, I was thinking about the song Salley Gardens, which has the lines She bade me take love easy, as grass grows on the weirs. But I was young and foolish, and now am filled with tears. Now this is an old song, and maybe in its time, weirs were also levees. Maybe... However, have you ever tried to compose a conventional song, one which makes sense and rhymes at the same time? It is not easy. I don't blame the author for seizing upon a little-known meaning for weir in order to find something that rhymes with "tears." My Sing-out book says that this song came about when W.B. Yeats attempted to reconstuct an old song from 3 lines he remembered an old peasant woman singing in the village of Ballisodare. JTT: you may be right about the water plants that cling to the weirs. I don't think country people would call it grass, because it doesn't feed the cows, but maybe, when one needs a rhyme badly, things like that can be overlooked. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:12 PM El Greko - the dictionary says that weir is related to the Greek "erysthai", to protect. You were right all along. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 04 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM Hmm. We call 'em all canoes here, whether they're covered in (kayaks) or open (what we call Canadian canoes). And yes, country people do call the grass under weirs grass, and yes, the beasts do eat it, because at times when there's less of a flow, it's not all covered by water. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Dave Bryant Date: 05 Mar 04 - 04:43 AM Q - nowhere in my posting do I suggest that my definition excludes any others. I would still say that the major use of the word weir (in the UK at least) relates to some form of structure used to control the depth or flow of water in a channel. I was really attempting to explain one of the main reasons that weirs are placed across rivers. Another use of weirs is to regulate the flow of water to a water-wheel. |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,JTT Date: 16 Sep 04 - 06:22 PM i happened to notice a typical Irish grassy weir the other day, as I was musing to myself about this thread, and snickering mentally at the idea that Irish farmers wouldn't be fairly familiar with grass. I can take a photo next time I pass it if it's any help - but can I upload photos here? |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: rich-joy Date: 18 Sep 04 - 08:10 PM In Perth , Western Australia, where I was born, we had two major water supply reservoirs (well, in the 50s, this was!) - The Canning Dam and the Mundaring Weir. The M.Weir was the one that pumped water to the Eastern Goldfields - a squillion miles away in the desert (C.Y. O'Connor's scheme, built in late 1800s, I think). In the good old days, when it used to rain lots every winter in Perth, Dad used to take us for an annual Sunday drive into "The Hills" to see the first water overflowing at the Dam and then we'd finish the day's outing at the Wier. But my point is, they are both BIG holders of water - just not sure why one is labeled a dam and one a weir ... Cheers! R-J |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:50 PM There are many intelligent responces within this thread - i.e. oxygenation by Cattail
However, leeneia's Canoes aren't safe boats to begin with reminds me - there ought to be driver's lisences issued for "the information super-hiway"
Folkies - sometimes the idjets - idjecy - just gets my temper rolling like THE Weir in BATH UK:
Bath's weir is world famous - and was also constructed in a manner to minimize the dangerous "hydralics" of a traditional style - straight-across-stream barrier. (Perhaps, your detective novelist used their "advance" to visit Bath for "research.)
When "caught in a hydralic" you swim to the bottom of the river, crawl along the bottom-rocks, and hope to be "spit-out" .... rather than going round and round like a washing machine. Dangerous Hydraulic Diagram:
Our thread's "canoing expert" - would probably be terrified - but yes, canoes do, do whitewater - and yes - it is VERY fun! It is also an Olympic event C-1 and C-2 slaloms and sprints (you probably think they are K-1 and K-2....but who would know or be expected to discover "new-knowledge" - given this summer's "sports" coverage of women's beach vollyball.)
Woman canoeing whitewater:
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: GEST Date: 19 Sep 04 - 11:01 AM Our home is in Canada on an island off the coast of Maine. The island's many coves are filled with herring weirs designed for the extreme high and low tides of the Bay of Fundy. From our back door we can see three, but there are four more out of our sight in the cove. During the season they are seined whenever they are full, which has been very often this year. We get to see the herring carriers arrive to suck the herring out of the main net and into a scaler before entering the hold. Scales are used in the cosmetic industry, while the herring are processed here on the island and the mainland. Next time you buy sardines, look for the Brunswick brand. They're sold in stores all over the world. :-) Here's a picture of a weir: http://www.wtv-zone.com/phyrst/gest/agm06.html |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Sep 04 - 11:38 AM A Weir is intended to have the water flow over the whole of the top surface on a fairly regular basis - most of the ones in the country area around Bundaberg where I grew up often had a (concrete not asphalt) road surface on the top - wide enough to cross the river in dryish times. It forms a buffer, retaining some water for drier times in a pond area upstream. None of the weirs in Australia were ever likely to have been associated with any sort of mill construction, such things were things of history (power was mostly generated by steam or ICEs) when these Australian ones were constructed - they were mostly used for irrigation or for a supply of potable water in drier times. Most rivers in Eastern Australia are short and fast flowing during times of rain, and lower and slower between wet periods. Weirs are not uncommon on many smaller streams in country areas. A large Dam is intended to hold water back and deal with the flow through a regulated outlet (possibly also generating electrical power) - if the water reaches the top enough to start to flow over, it is a serious cause for concern by the engineers, as due to it's design and construction, this may cause serious damage to the dam. There may be a 'spillway' which is intended to deal with small amounts of flow over once the optimum high level is reached, but if considerable stream flow is anticipated, the outputs are opened to stop the dam overtopping. But small farm dams may rely on the water mostly behaving like a weir - although the volume is much smaller, and towns are not likely to be swept away downstream if they break. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: kendall Date: 19 Sep 04 - 11:54 AM Charlie, them "weir wolves" is bad, but even they stay clear of the "Hang Downs." |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM Some weirs I was speaking about before were also intended mainly as creek crossings. By providing a stable area over which the water would flow after a rain fall, the crossing would be still usable after the rainflow had ceased. If left naturally, the force of the water passing thru the crossing area would disrupt the area, with rocks and soil ripped and moved around. These were usually lower in height. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Folklore: weirs -finally! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:37 AM Good point on the canoe/kayak thread drift, and good photos at that link, Gargoyle--there are clearly some similar skill sets, and some different. Smaller closed craft versus larger open craft. But you don't see any photos of her rolling that canoe--because once is all it takes and she's out of the competition. That's also a very useful diagram of the action of water as it goes over a dam. Avoidance is obviously the key--how many people would have the presence of mind to remember to dive to the bottom of the river to get spit out of that loop? SRS |
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