Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy (Miskin Man)
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:38 PM

Well... I just stumbled on this thread after an afternoon in the pub so I will speak as I find.
I had occasion to deal with Dave a while ago now about a re-release of a well known Welsh Band after life changing medical problems. Dave could not have been more helpful, more interested or less financially motivated.... No, I've never met him,.. no I've had no great financial dealings with him. BUT I have talked many hours late in to the night with a genuine caring music person. I have watched with a growimg confusion all the stories about Dave but I speak only from my personal dealings with him - interested, caring, and efficient beyond reproach. I look forward to one day meeting the man for a handshake and a beer. (Those who know me will know that I really mean a hug)

Andy

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM

early - you asked for personal experiences.

I've met Bulmer on occasion and seen the inside of the old CM office before he went big time. From what I saw, he genuinely loves the music but also actively enjoys keeping artists dangling. Not all of them - some are treated with the utmost courtesy (these people then become apologists). Others have to beg - not for royalties - but just an audience with Mr CM himself. So it doesn't seem to be a profit thing - more pursuit of a sense of power. One for Freud rather than the lawyers? No idea what he really gets from it but it's not pretty.

Re the lists of impending releases - would like to hope these are genuine - suspect that more often they're just wish lists (and that there's no evil agenda behind this, just no actual staff to do the bloody job). It's a mess - can only assume the legal side is tight enough that the MU can't do anything about it? Let's hope Nic Jones at least gets some dosh soon.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:48 PM

PS Andy (Miskin Man) - Hope it works out for you. It may well do - reckon he's good when he's interested!

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:34 PM

Jesus
I thought that I would be able to get away from this shit..
Sadly not...dragged back in once again.
Hand over the tapes Mr Bulmer.
Pay money to people that you owe money to.
And finally.
Expletive deleted.
Too many years, Too many tears, may the ghost of Tony Rose come back to haunt you.
NO MORE
Ralph Jordan

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:12 AM

Like Ralphie I hoped that we had seen the last mention of Bulmer - that it until the day we hear he has got the legal banging that will inevitably reach him.   I also agree with Guest who responded to early (surely early is as much a cop out as Guest??) and from dealings that I have had with Bulmer over many years can confirm that to "check your change" might be sensible! I agree also that the real picture can be gained from his previous partners, not to mention employees who have been likewise treated like dirt. Sadly time will not be the healer for these people and I know of at least one former partner whom Bulmer has got gripped in a legal iron vice concocted by his in house hit-man Sharpley. Oh yes Early, you are naive.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:18 AM

Mudcat technical note: "early" may not be someone's real name but if push came to legal shove the person's identity can be obtained from their registration details. That is not the case with an unregistered "GUEST".

Anahata

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 04:47 AM

Shepherdlass,

What makes you think that the MU would be interested ?

For many years I've seen stickers "Keep Music Live" which I believe was organised or backed by the MU, result less live music more "DJ's"

Like-wise many years ago radio stations were limited in "needle time"
thus ensuring that live music got some coverage on radio. I believe that this was in agreement with the MU.Current situation: 100's more radio stations, even less live music. Not a good track record.

Sorry if I've strayed from the main reason for this thread's existence but in my own brief dealings with Mr Bulmer's organisation I would say that it was far from organised or efficient. That however is not uncommon in the real world.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 05:55 AM

GUEST Lien
Many Thanks for your kind words
Regards Ralph

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,John Larkins, Randfontein, SA
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 07:15 AM

Sorry if I have seemed to upset the peaceful apple cart! Whilst I did not for one moment imagine that Mr Bulmer had become akin to the late Mother Theresa, it is regrettably sure that he is still the problem he apparently has always been. I came to the thread again after having met a folk musician visiting South Africa very recently. This gentleman (who you will appreciate I cannot name as that would be very irresponsible in view of the litigious and spiteful nature of Mr Bulmer) was very vocal about the whole set up that had deprived him of a rather large amount of money over several years.   He exorted some young musicians listening to under no circumstances do business with Mr Bulmer. What a very sad indictment but no doubt this is of not the remotest concern to the people at CM in England. I shall continue now to return to the thread to see what if anything goes down.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Porter.
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:06 AM

The main accusation levelled at Mr Bulmer seems to be that he is not very nice, there is little hard evidence concerning his supposed crimes, surely not releasing back catalogues, which he owns anyway, is up to him. Non payment of royalties seems to be a major bone of contention, but nobody seems to be able to give any specific cases, only hearsay, where are these disgruntled former partners. I know Bulmer only as a rather good accordion player, who I have seen several times in sessions in Yorkshire, he seems to have plenty of friends in the folk music community here. I know his partner Neil Sharpley has been in court a few times, and has been struck off as a solicitor, but he also has many friends in high places in Louth, where he lives, unless anyone has any real evidence against Bulmer, I suggest that there is little point in constantly going over old ground.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:34 PM

So, being a "rather good accordian player" justifies this whole sorry saga?
Tell that to Lal Waterson, Tony Rose, Nic Jones....etc....infinitum.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:03 PM

Infinitum?

Hardly.

There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly.

Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead.

Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:21 PM

Wouldja ever consider reading the threads before posting, Liam? If you did it would explain a lot! Like the fact that many people did not sign with Bulmer. Or the fact that Bulmer's partner IS a solicitor making his legal costs next to nil. This means he can tie things up in process forever, spending no real money, until artists run out of legal fees.

Etc, etc...

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Prorter/Lincs.
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:47 PM

Bulmer and Sharply come from the the same part of North Yorkshire, as
do all the Hull crowd, Linc'c etc, Seems a shame that in more than
three years, none of them has metionied a word about these matters.
John from Hull, can you help us.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:36 PM

I doubt if the Northern Lincs/East Yorks people have had a lot to do, professionally, with Celtic Music of Harrogate.

The sad, lazy ignorance of people like Liam (who is he in real life, I wonder?) is what keeps these discussions dragging pointlessly on. Nothing new is added, but the same misapprehensions and misinformation —and, sometimes, deliberate mendacity— are continually repeated by those who don't know the people involved or who haven't bothered to read what has already been said.

Everything material to the present state of affairs has already been said, one way or another. In earlier days on the internet, there was an acronym which newer arrivals here might do well to look up, and take to heart before posting redundant and ill-informed comments:

RTFT

In this case, of course, there are several threads to read. They are all indicated at the head of this page. If you find that too difficult, or just too much trouble, then perhaps you ought to refrain from comment altogether.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:48 PM

Qoute-"john from Hull can you help us?"
I posted Bulmers adress here a couple of years ago.

although, for your information I and the rst of the Hull Mudcat members [theres over 50 of us here], are in East Yorkshire, Mr Bulmer lives in North Yorkshire, [harrogate].

his full address and phone number are in one of the earlier threads, I know its there, as I put it there.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:00 PM

David R Bulmer
Roskilde House
York Road
Knaresborough
North Yorkshire.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:31 AM

What is a 'handful'?

When I look through my record collection, I find that a large number of titles have been 'bulmerised'.

If these are suppressed from sale, then inevitably the performers are not going to receive any royalties, regardless of any other issues.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 03:54 AM

Dear GUEST Liam
My apologies for my poor Latin
Ralph

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: red max
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:32 AM

Mr Bulmer lives about a mile away from me, but what am I supposed to do? I think it's tragic that so many great Leader/Trailer etc. albums are in limbo, but would it really help if I went round and threw a brick through his window?

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Red Max
No

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

I am as well informed as any about the circumstances as they've been laid out for us over the years on the folk forums. If musicians with aspirations to becoming professional musicians in the music industry (which is a business) sign on the dotted line without the contracts being reviewed and negotiated by their own solicitor, they bloody well get what they deserve.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:34 AM

That's hard advice when your contract is initially with a personal friend and his record co. then goes bust and is bought up by somebody you don't know.

The folk part of the "music industry" has always been a pretty informal affair, even more so at the time when those events happened.

So, my contract with Wild Goose states explicitly that rights ownership reverts to me in the event of Wild Goose's business passing into the hands of anybody other than Doug Bailey. No prizes for guessing why that clause went in.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 08:29 AM

Firstly, hard advice though it may be, it is the only sound advice there ever has been when it comes to the cutthroat nature of the industry.

I simply don't accept that the aggrieved musicians shouldn't have been expected to know the terms of the contracts they signed. If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them? I'm supposing there may even have been a few of them who never read their own contracts before or after signing. Too busy down at the pub with the lads, perhaps?

Secondly, it is common sense to know that business and friendship rarely mix well in any industry. That knowledge was quite well known even at the time those older contracts were signed.

Thirdly, if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in, they would have known what could happen to their creative work when their friend turned out to be terrible at business, or the label was gobbled up by another, etc etc. Those circumstances have never been uncommon occurences in the folk music industry, even back in those days.

Finally, there were, obviously, no fewer fools among them then, than there are today.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:23 AM

GUEST Liam.
It's always wonderful to welcome such kind, loving, caring and sensitive people like yourself to this forum.
I hope that you will stay, (How much do you charge, BTW?)

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

If they did sod all to protect their own financial interests, why should anyone have sympathy for them?

Just a wild guess here, Liam...Because they're human beings?

If you're ever shot, God forbid, someone might say "he knew he might get shot, it's a cruel old world, bulletproof vests are available, and if he did sod all to protect his miserable cold heart, why should anyone have any sympathy?"

Maybe then you'd understand, Liam...

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 10:34 AM

Our (civil, not criminal) legal system has always worked by the unwritten rule that whoever has the deepest pockets wins. (Microsoft, for one example)

Doesn't matter how good your contract, they will still tie you up.
Musicians in general, and folk musicians in particular, don't tend to have a great deal of money to throw at a lawsuit which may not result in any cash even if they win.

Easier to walk away and accept the loss rather than throw good money after bad. And that's EXACTLY what some people rely on.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 01:58 PM

Liam - just reiterating the point made by others here (in the hope that repetition in another way might help): an artist ripped off by a record company and who cannot afford legal redress is no different to a 9-to-5 worker unfairly sacked by their employer. They have a right for their complaint to be heard and to compensation. No-one expects that any other worker becomes a legal expert BEFORE any problems arise - why should musicians be any different?

Hootenanny - point taken re the MU. They are pretty toothless, as I discovered while working on a supposedly MU-friendly contract with the Rank organization (hours were extended and wages cut with absolutely no comeback). Equity are a lot better. I just wondered whether there's even a warning in the MU rag about working with CM (suspect not, due to their ability to keep everything entirely legal no matter how immoral it seems)?

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:30 PM

Yes CM has been the subject of what the MU politely call "NOTICES" for at least ten years. Mr Bulmer's company holds the record for being the most listed in Notices - ie musicians and others contemplating doing business with him are advised that it would be most unwise. Perhaps the current crop of excusists would do as well to check out the Guardian article of some years ago that sets out in no uncertain terms exactly how this team is viewed. Although I have long since disposed of my copy I recall one quote from a representative of the MU that went something like: We have had more complaints about Mr Bulmer and his business paractices than for any other company or individual!" Take the change out of that.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam.
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

Immorality is subjective, as this issue illustrates quite nicely.

Same old horse, duly flogged, lying dead on the road. I've no interest in the sanctimonious protestations, as we've all seen them here many times before.

G'day.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:42 AM

As Liam, this is not a sanctimonious protestation!
Neither is this comment.
Neither is rumour or hearsay.

Your patronizing whining about gullible performers not getting contracts drawn up properly does not apply here. If the terms of a contract are breached you have to take legal action if you want anything done about it.

As I mentioned a few messages back, it's all been said before, and some of us await the results with interest. It can take time...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: pavane
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 12:25 PM

And musicians are not employees, and are not protected by employee legislation

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, IOM
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:09 PM

Well G'day to you Liam - or Dave, Neil, Ruth or Calum or whatever your name really is. From what you say you cannot appreciate the extent of the villainy perpetrated by the "good" folk at CM Records. From the final abruptness of your posting perhaps that will be the last we hear of your illinformed excuses for their behaviour.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

Did I mention the horse was not only dead, but a rotting, putrefied corpse with a wretched stench?

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Ian Crossleigh
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:48 AM

Lets hope that you describe CM here Liam.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: *Laura*
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM

Quote - "Infinitum?
Hardly.
There is a finite (as in a handful or two) group of musicians who feel they weren't treated fairly.
Those same half soaked musicians couldn't be bothered hiring a solicitor to advocate for their own business interests, now or at the time they signed with Bulmer. Hence the well orchestrated campaign (which includes certain posters to these threads) to beat seven shades of shit out of him instead.
Thing is, it turned me off forever to those musicians, some of whom I thought were above that sort of thing. "

and

Quote - "if those musicians had bothered to educate themselves about the industry they were attempting to make a living in,"

How dare you??

Maybe you should think about some of those musicians allegedly 'uneducated' in the industry. And maybe you should get your facts straight before they fall out of your mouth.

Or maybe you should just not say anything at all.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:06 PM

Or maybe you should go piss up a rope, Laura dear.

There is no reason why a professional musician shouldn't be expected to know the most basic rules of the game of their industry, just like anyone else entering the work force. Do barbers need to know the laws regarding their licensure? Answer: yes.

Why hold musicians to a different standard? Because they are "special"?

What a load of shite.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5)
From: GUEST,Dave Lawrence.
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:50 PM

Guest Liam. Your foul mouthed advocacy of Bulmer would do credit to the man himself.
Bulmer presented himself to those who signed with him as a friend and fellow musician, not as a music mogul, Bulmer and his odious sidekick broke the terms of these agreements, not the artists. Trust, foolish though it may be, was paramount in folk music at this time.
These Bulmer threads may be tiresome to some, but if they serve to warn off only one potential victim I beleive them to have been worthwhile.

---

I think it's time to close this thread and let things cool down for a while.
Feel free to start another thread if there's a need.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-