Turn down the volume!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 May 05 - 12:19 PM

Same with restaurants. I go out to eat for the company and a good discussion is a major proponent of that type of meal. So many restaurants nowadays make it impossible to talk without shouting and I, personally, find that very unpleasant.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 27 May 05 - 10:12 AM

Why should there be any music at all (other than occasional singing by the customers) in a pub where people go to talk? I was in such a place just the other night, with some Hash Harriers, and I had to cup my ear & yell. Conduces to intimacy, I suppose.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: What is fascinating in a mirror? A world I am not at the center of. :||

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:20 AM

Great - another parody, and I can sing this one with real feeling!

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Barbara
Date: 27 May 05 - 09:09 AM

MR. SOUNDMAN
(Pat Donohue)

Mr. Soundman, turn up the sound
So they can hear me for miles around.
Use all the volume that you can manage.
I wanna do a little hearing damage.
Mr. Soundman, you know what I need.
Keep on a-crankin' till their eardrums bleed.
I wanna terrorize this crowd.
Oh, Mr. Soundman turn me up loud.

Mr. Soundman, I'd like there to be
Lots less of everyone and lots more of me.
If you could turn me up a little bit higher
Till just before you blow your amplifier.
Mr. Soundman, cause me some pain.
I don't need earplugs or Novocain.
I ain't too good, but I ain't proud.
Oh, Mr. Soundman, turn me up loud.

Mr. Soundman, what did you say?
I must have blacked out. I think I'm okay.
You really got me with that high pitched squealin'.
I can't hear nothin' but I like the feelin'.
Mr. Soundman, you got it right.
My ears are ringin' for the rest of the night.
It's always up and never down.
Oh, Mr. Soundman turn up...
I wanna crash and burn up...
Mr. Soundman, turn up the sound.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 05 - 08:42 AM

ch, wHY DO YOU HAVE TO KEEP PROVING HEIM RIGHT?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: JudeL
Date: 27 May 05 - 07:40 AM

One band whose live concerts I really used to enjoy was called Shave the Monkey. Their performances were full of lively energy and were certainly not quiet. Then they changed, the line-up changed a little but also they had a new sound engineer. I went to one of their concerts at a concert venue where I had previously seen their original line up. The artists new line up was still a very talented group but now the sound was cranked up so loud it was no longer enjoyable the lyrics were lost & it was no longer music it was just a painful noise. After mentioning my concerns to the organisers I ended up voting with my feet & leaving.

I agree that sometimes the problem is the band, & sometimes it is the venue but there are a lot of times when the sheer volume of the amplification is just too much & destroys performance rather than enhances.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 May 05 - 11:23 PM

You can't go far enough soon enough kendall...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:12 PM

please post again....

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:07 PM

Thank you 'guest' - appreciated - and not - nothing to do with the band - at least not that one...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:02 PM

And valid points too!

SORRY AGAIN

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 09:01 PM

Sorry Blowzabella, I think we crossed rather than passed.

Are you anything to do with the band?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:51 PM

Well, I shan't bother contributing in future if I'm just gonna be passed over......

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:43 PM

Can we have an argument thread for these people?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:40 PM

This has gone far enough. I am grown up and mature enough so that I don't need the last word. Adios (That means goodby, Clinton)

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:31 PM

Is that $2.00 Canadian?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:30 PM

Clinton, if I wanted to sink to personal attacks and name calling as you always do, I could take you apart like a $2.00 watch. You just proved my point.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:19 PM

Now that this discussion has moved back towards the thread title it feels safeR to chuck some comments in!

Projection is not Hollering. It's a weird thing that I've only found one way to explain to inexperienced people (mostly speakers at conferences - not so different!)Stand on stage - ignore the PA - talk (or sing) as if you're conversing with someone in the third or fourth row.

From a different direction - all an amplifier does (apart from spread evil of course - it's a machine after all) is make things louder. A loud mumble is no more comprehensible than a quiet one. The Fast Show's 'Softly Spoken Irish Poet'?

Dynamics is an interesting one. Be aware that any PA system will have about half the dynamic range (the difference between the loudest bit and the quietest bit) than real life. You have to make a choice as to which bit you want, or adjust what you do, or use compression.

Sorry - I shouldn't use such words, I know compression takes Folk Music to the Dark Side.

Someone on a different thread - a PA advice request I think - suggested building your own speakers. The money saving bit is cool. However, people like Fender, TurboSound, EAW, Renkus Heinz, Martin and my personal Faves (this week) Nexo, spend millions of pounds researching how to make them sound great. They don't publish designs so you can build your own, and they NEED controllers to work properly. Bose were the first to do this and we've all seen a million and one 802 rigs out there. Thirty years ago they really were the dogs.

Spend money on PA, as much as you can.

Sound men are.................

An audio technician is someone who knows all about gain structures and EQ curves dispersion patterns and what have you. A sound Engineer is the next step - the connection with the music.

There are a few - John Scullard, Joe Rusby and Ollie Knight is merely a start. (Let's have more name checking?) However the folk scene seems to be patholgically unable to spend money, so anybody who does learn all the technical stuff will be able to make way more money (and I really do mean WAY MORE money) doing corporate work, or touring with a rock and roll band or becoming a plumber..................or going on the dole.

No, not bitter - I've made my choice.

There is another person who can help - and possibly change everything long term. The friend/spouse/mate/sparebod that a band brings to a gig. These people need to be taken more seriously, but they have to do more work. Buy books, listen to others, ask questions, whatever.

If you turn up and ummmmmmm and errrrrrrr, then the soundman won't listen to you. If you have a clue, are assertive (never agressive) and friendly (mmmmmmmmmmm beer) then any soundman worth their salt will listen, and possibly even bugger off to the bar and let you get on with it. When you've learned how to drive a small but decent desk - mackies, studiomasters and Spirits? - then even a Midas XL4 is only different in that it takes a cab to get from end to the other.

This is a middling random series of thoughts - they all make sense right now, but may not tomorrow morning.

Share and enjoy

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Blowzabella
Date: 26 May 05 - 08:04 PM

I'm not a performer but I do have experience from another angle. I have in my time been in venues where loud music was played and enjoyed it - however, I have also learned to listen to music and the two are not the same thing.

To enjoy an evening because of the vibrations being felt in the pit of your stomach, is not listening to the music. If you are a musician, playing in those circumstances, I am sorry but you are not being appreciated properly.

There are still musicians out there who understand their craft sufficiently, who can perform without amplification, even in a several hundred seater venue, with all sorts of instruments.

If you play in venues where amplification is necessary because of chatter, that is one thing; if your choice is to outwiegh the music by the volume because it creates a different type of experience, that is another thing - but the third way is to play, without amplification and make it work - and it can - very well indeed                        

It's horses for courses - same as everything else - not wrong, not right, just different...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 May 05 - 06:53 PM

I think Chris has a point about "projection" ~ with or without a microphone, there's more to it than just volume. Attitude is also a factor, dynamics (varying your volume), eye-contact, etc. ~ in a word (well, two words), stage presence.

If you pull out all of these stops in your effort to hold the crowd's attention, you should have less need for sheer volume, and won't feel the need to turn all the knobs up to eleven.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 May 05 - 05:38 PM

Yaaaaaaawnnn... Kendal... you're an idiot... why anyone would look up to you is beyond me... that you think anyone would is both arrogant and deluded...   Enjoy your egress...

Chris...
With a mic, you don't have to project... that's the whole idea...

Those are the people who bug me... they's who feel the need to holler into their mics...

"The more you crank it up the louder the talkers get"
And then one has to consider the venue... if it's a pub/bar, the musician is secondary at best...   People are first and foremost there to drink alcohol (If you're going to sit there an drink water or tea, get out) and enjoy the company of the other patrons... That, 99.9% of the time, means they are going to talk... To TRY to play 'over' them is a pointless endeavour...
If it's a concert, then the people who are talking need to be told to get out for the sake of everyone involved...

I'm in a lucky situation where my 'local' where I get the lions share of my gigs is a bunch of small rooms... The people who want to talk sit else where, and the people who want to be involved with the music come into the dining room with me (Or whoever is playing that night) and well, it's not a huge room, so it doesn't HAVE to be very loud...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 05 - 04:28 PM

The more you crank it up the louder the talkers get. It's a game of leap frog. Screw that.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:23 PM

A good PA is a necessity, and sometimes you have to bring your own, sometimes they have one, but you can control the volume.
No matter what your performing situation (club, bar, coffeehouse, etc.) make sure you have a little something called Projection.
If you project, you don't have to crank it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 May 05 - 12:03 PM

Back in the Dark Ages when I was doing a lot of solo pub gigs , I used
to reckon I had got it right if after about fifteen minutes someone would say "We cant quite hear you at the back!"
If you are playing in a bar where people may want a conversation ,PA is almost mandatory , but it should NOT be so loud that a conversation has to be SHOUTED .

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 26 May 05 - 07:52 AM

And of course the bottom line is, if Clinton didn't have me as a mature adult role model to look up to and struggle against, he would have to make one up. LOL

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:53 PM

Some people take all other people in this place seriously.

But I know how to pick and choose.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:47 PM

All of the above FT...

Some people take this place seriously... those who know better do not...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 10:36 PM

"and much funnier than MG..."
Al'right, now yer getting nasty!
:-P

I'd offer to write about you too, but Joe would just have to delete that one too.... ;-P


The fact is, CH, you are not able to simply state your opinion on any given subject and let it go at that. You always have to resort to sniping and personal insults as if your opinion and you are the same thing. How come you can't separate the two?
When you attack someone who doesn't agree with your opinion you say much more about you than about them.

Great minds think alike.... or is it fools never differ.... or both...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:54 PM

Personal opinion. I find that very loud music is uncomfortable and the words tend to become indistinguishable. I have constant tinitus from attending clubs with loud music in the 60s and 70s and do feel that there is going to be a higher proportion of people with hearing difficulties as the years go by and the club and concert kids today grow older.

I don't think that any music really NEEDS to be played at a deafening level to be appreciated, but feel sorry for the kids who may end up partially deaf in their 50s in the future. Then it's too late to do anything about it.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 05:44 PM

This forum is whatever the hell we want it to be except for personal attacks and racist remarks.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 25 May 05 - 03:01 PM

Irony, I trust, PoohBear. But I'll tell you one thing about him: His ears weren't painted on.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoohBear
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:52 PM

OK - newbie question, probably, but who is/was Cecil Sharp? Am I correct in assuming he was making audio recordings back before the elaborate electronics were available?
PB

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:49 PM

It is not very widely known that Cecil Sharp gave up collecting because the buggers couldn't sing loud enough.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: PoohBear
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:25 PM

Geez, would you guys knock it off? I thought this was supposed to be a relatively intelligent discussion about music, amplification and the veriations of it - not an adolescent pissing contest!
PB

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:18 PM

Seems to me I fit in better than most people care to admit Chris!

:-P

heh

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:03 PM

So how is he different from most people in this forum?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 02:02 PM

Whatever Kendall... want a little band-aid for your little skinned knee?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 01:44 PM

The fact is, CH, you are not able to simply state your opinion on any given subject and let it go at that. You always have to resort to sniping and personal insults as if your opinion and you are the same thing. How come you can't separate the two?
When you attack someone who doesn't agree with your opinion you say much more about you than about them.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 May 05 - 12:02 PM

"have to resort to sniping and personal insults"
I don't have to... I enjoy sniping and personally insulting people who deserve it

"I'm so sorry that you are losing your hearing at such an early age"
There's NOTHING wrong with my hearing at all...

"Resort to personal insults is the sign of a very small mind."
You'd know... that's all you seem capable of... At least, even with all my supposed brain cell loss I can form a whole, cogent sentence. What's your excuse?

"and much funnier than MG..."
Al'right, now yer getting nasty!
:-P

You poor sad people need to cluster a little closer together...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:37 AM

Kenadal,

When I reach the stage when I am unable to match ages with people half my wits, then I'll be too old.

;-)

"Clinton is funnier than Mother's day in an orphanage"

ROFL.... and much funnier than MG...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 May 05 - 07:15 AM

Clinton - I'm so sorry that you are losing your hearing at such an early age.

You just won't be able to imagine the joy that can be got from picking up the subtle nuances of a beautiful piece of music, played at a volume that allows one to listen, rather than fight the urge to move as far away as possible.

I'm also sorry that you seem to be losing brain cells to such an extent that you are unable to present a cohesive argument in support of your opinion on any matter. Resort to personal insults is the sign of a very small mind.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:51 AM

Processes, that is.

Now, folks, you gotta admit that Clinton is funnier than Mother's day in an orphanage.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 25 May 05 - 06:44 AM

The thought prosesses of other people always interest me. Why some people are unable to stick to the subject at hand, and have to resort to sniping and personal insults is a mystery.

Clinton, I could probably come up with something more to say about sticking to the subject, but I have to speak at my sister's funeral today, and I'm getting too old to multi task.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 25 May 05 - 01:52 AM

Actually, I understand amplification in the '70s was just loud.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:46 PM

If I ever meet Kendall, it'll be too soon

Especially if his 'joke' above is the best he can come up with... that one stopped being funny when -I- quit making it 25 years ago...

----------------------------

A certain BIG NAME folkie controls the volume of his own electric guitar when he plays Windsor Folk cause he got tired of sound guys turing him down because of the complaints from the 'blue-hair-biddies'...

"Do 'em good to feel SOMETHING for a change" he told me one night...

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:17 PM

Many people, particularly men, ignore how vulnerable their ears are, particularly in noisy professions. If you work around steady noise, or even areas with intermittent very loud noises, such as using pressurized air, it pays off in the long run to employ ear protection. At gigs i attend I try to remember to bring some plugs of the soft insertable kind, hopefully not brightly colored, but I know no shame when it comes to safeguarding them itty bitty little hairs.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:14 PM

Reminds me of the line--goes somethin' like this--given by Robin Williams in "Good Morning Vietnam".

"AND THIS ONE IS FOR THE BOYS IN ARTILLERY."

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:13 PM

Since I prefer Acoustic Music, I only use amplification to balance the sound, or else when the venue requires just a little boost to hear the instruments. I suspect that when the hippie crowd used to go to concerts, between the screaming & the booze/drugs the band was only heard if amplified at Warp decibels--& this has become the standard. When it gets so bad that the baby boomers all turn off their hearing aids & throw them on stage, maybe the bands will take the hint.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 05 - 11:11 PM

Clinton--

If you ever met Kendall, you'd know you couldn't be more wrong, particularly regarding wit. You'd be hard pressed to come up to half his level.





RE: volume etc.

I've been to 2 different Celtic festivals in my area. The first is relatively small but has all sorts of great stuff, including battle re-enactments, fiddle contests, and various music groups. For years I've seen a group there which sings in Welsh, Manx, and Breton, among others (Galician also, I think), and has a pennywhistle, guitar, harp and some other intruments.) It was great to hear all the lyrics, and the instruments. They used stand-up mikes.

Now, however, I've seen the same group at a different Celtic festival. As the other groups do who perform there, they now use electric guitars and drums--and big amps. They seem to have a bigger audience, maybe a younger one. But now they're just another rock band--they've lost a lot of their former unique quality. I like rock--but it's not what I come to a Celtic festival for.

To me this is not progress. To them it might be--since they may well be asking and getting more to perform. I suppose it depends on what the goals of the performers-- and the audience-- are.

The second festival will never see me again--(maybe it doesn't matter to them, particularly if they've increased their audience)--but the first one will.

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: kendall
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:37 PM

You never learn do you, Clit?

Subject: RE: Turn down the volume!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 May 05 - 10:14 PM

Kendall... 95% of the world is LESS than half your age... and from what I can tell from what you post, they mostly have twice your wits