BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?

Subject: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:06 PM

I am a regular Catter, but prefer to be anonymous on this one. Hope you all don't mind. I am serious in asking for your opinions and information.

I am divorced and middle-aged and it is more than 20 years since I have been involved in anything like 'dating'. I find I am entering a very different and rather bewildering world and I wonder if what I have been experiencing is the norm. I got talking to a man through work, who asked me out for a drink and we got on very well. What amazes me is that within two weeks of our first meeting, he wanted and expected me to go to bed with him. This is the second man I have been out with since I have been single and the second time this has happened. Am I really so very out of touch ? Are people in real life all now behaving like characters from Sex & the City and Eastenders etc. ?

Please don't think I am a version of "disgusted of Tonbridge Wells". I'm very much hoping to have a full sexual relationship with someone again. It's just that I thought that mature adults would enjoy and understand the delight of a gradual build-up, of getting to know someone and that sex would mean something.

Are the two experiences I have had typical amongst the middle-aged ? I'd be glad to know. At the moment, I am feeling rather disappointed and disillusioned, as well as

Bothered and Bewildered

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:09 PM

"I thought that mature adults would enjoy and understand the delight of a gradual build-up, of getting to know someone and that sex would mean something"

Some will... some won't... The real trick is finding the ones who ARE like minded...

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:09 PM

For once, a question on which I have no opinion!! Seriously, though, I don't think expecting sexual congress is sufficient grounds for granting it. For one thing, I'd think the other party might be sensitive enough to understand what was going on, especially if you were up to communicating it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

Based on my own experiences, I regret to say that I think yours are typical. Perhaps with luck you will meet a man your own age with similar values -- I hope so. I did, and ended up marrying him.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:17 PM

Not for me, necessarily, but for many men two weeks is a gradual buildup!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

You aren't out of touch. Its the date that's out of touch with proper etiquette, how to treat a lady. Were I single and attractive to you, I would definitely allow you the luxury of time to get to know me and would allow you also to make the first move when you felt comfortable. Good luck in your endeavors.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:22 PM

I guess when you are middle aged (I am past that), then you have learned a lot over time. Whats the point of beating about the bush.
You are not a teenager anymore. If you fancy somebody, then go for it. life is too short. I guess safe sex is more important nowadays than it ever was. get him tested. If he is all clear, then within reason, you know he isn't a jump into bed with anybody, or he is just very lucky.
The middle aged bloke needs to sow his oats before it is too late. So be warned, he may not fancy you enough to get married to, he may just want sex.
At the end of the day it is your decision, you are a grown up person, who doesn't have to answer to anybody else.
I think life has changed dramatically. I don't think courtship comes into it anymore (blame telly and peoples morality and thepill and anything else that you can think of).
Hey at the end of the day, you have to decide, not anybody else.
Good luck on whatever you decide.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,I prefer to remain anon, too
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM

Your experience could mean any number of things, really.
The men might be very attracted to you as a potential mate; they might be using dating for sex; they might be sex addicts; they might think this was their only chance at sex for several more days/weeks/months/, etc. etc. What do you think it meant?

    How long did it take you to sleep with your husband? Have you ever jumped into bed when you were attracted to someone? A man who likes you enough to wait can take no for an answer. Why are you so surprised that grown people want sex after two dates? You might want to explore your own expectations to see if they are unrealistic. Men almost always have more compeling sex drives than women. Surely you are aware of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:03 PM

You could always look at it this way... The sooner you have sex with him the sooner you know if it's going to be a good thing or a bad thing. What if you wait and fall in love only to discover you found yourself a horrible lover, that can't satisfy you. That would be a bummer huh? Life is short, but if you like the guy, and if your horny at all, well what the hell? (Ha!)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:10 PM

Thank you everyone for the comments so far. I will look in later to see if there are any more.

'Guest' - you are a gentleman indeed ! 'pdc' - I am very pleased to read your story. Thank you.

'The Villan' - I made my decision. I said "No" and would say no again in a similar circumstance. I think it's wise for people to know each other for at least 6 months before they go to bed together. By then, if they are still together, it is going to be more than something 'recreational'.

'The Villan' said: " You are not a teenager anymore. If you fancy somebody, then go for it." Surely, that IS the way teenagers behave. Don't older people have a bit more sense and maturity than that ?

Maybe I will just have to get a parrot, like the old maid in the garret song :)

Please keep the replies coming. This is very interesting. Thank you.

Bothered and Bewildered

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

Having said all of that, i have to say that I have remained loyal to my wife.
You made the right decision.

"Don't older people have a bit more sense and maturity than that ?"

I guess that depends on the person. You know a mans brain is in his ****. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

After becoming single again I quickly gave up on "dating" as it all seemed pretty gruesome.

Instead I got into the ceilidh scene and started meeting people without any sexual or romantic baggage. One night I gave a regular dancing partner a lift home and we went on our first date after breakfast. We are still together over 10 years later.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

if a man 'expects' sex on the first or 2nd date, it may be a clue to how he approaches other important issues. If two people suddenly discover, after 2 hours together, that they both WANT to head for bed, that's something else...and may be even nice!

I had a rule that served me pretty well for years..."Never go to bed with someone that you are not sure you'd enjoy being with if you are not going to bed with them" ...this can be projected to ask what the other person thinks of YOU, also...if they are not enjoying your company out of bed, how will sex improve it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Pexx97
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:16 PM

Five years ago I met my partner and the same night I asked her to stay over. She refused and I thought more of her for that. I knew then that I wanted to get to know her better before anything happened. I have said to her that if she had stayed I probably would never have seen her again. We are both middle aged and have been separated from our previous partners for more than six years. I misread the situation and am so glad I did. Instead of a one night stand I have found someone whom I can happily spend the rest of my days with. Perhaps I did react that first night like a horny teenager but because she had more sense I have found more than I ever expected. Stick to your gut feelings on this one. Somewhere out there is a man who will take all the time you need and more. WE

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:27 PM

Tell them right up front what your rules and goals are. It might scare them all away but that is OK too...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST, who can't speak for all men, but
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:28 PM

In answering to your original question I'd have to say a resounding "yes!" you are out of touch. Above someone said something about lifes too short. I'm afraid that in today's society, men your age will be wanting to explore every aspect of your relationship in short order. You can blame it on TV, on societal changes or whatever you want but the fact remains that most men will not be satisfied with hors d'oeuvres and soup of the day for very long without sampling the main course and dessert. This doesn't have to indicate a lack of respect for you. Finding you desireable and voicing the wish to act upon it is just being human. I'm sorry that you seem to think less of a man because of it. After all, the guys who keep their legs crossed for SIX MONTHS! aren't guaranteed to be gems either.

You are old fashioned but sometimes there is beauty in that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 05:28 PM

It all comes down to one question. Do you, or do you think you will at some point, love him? Gut check time.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:00 PM

That's Old Fashioned
Words and Music by Bill Giant, Bernie Baum, and Florence Kaye


We hold hands in the movie show
So they say that we're old fashioned
Or we stroll beneath the silv'ry moon, oo-oo-oo-oon
And we carve our initials in the old oak tree
That's old fashioned, that's the way love should be

We enjoy sitting side by side
In the booth in the ice cream parlor
Where we play the nickelodeon, ah-ah-ah-ahn
And we dance when we hear our favorite melody
That's old fashioned, that's the way love should be

It's a modern changing world
Everything is moving fast
But when it comes to love I like
What they did in the past

I'm the kind who loves only one
So the boys say I'm old fashioned
Let them laugh, honey I don't mi-i-i-i-ind
I've made plans for a wedding day for you and me
That's old fashioned, that's the way love should be


as sung by The Everly Brothers

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Dear B and B: I do not think you are out of touch. People ya love are worth waiting for. It's pretty simple to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,can't speak for all women but.....
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:28 PM

Should desire and sexual attraction be governed by a six month waiting period.Isn't that a bit clinical? Does that make it worthier? More respectful?

At the end of the day it is nobody elses decision other than yours as to whom you share your body with, but sex can be recreational. Unless you view every prospective partner as a husband.

The act itself is the perfect way to indulge our senses, relieve tensions and lead to a fitful sleep. The hang ups associated with it are of our own making.

I'd say follow your libido. If it feels good do it. If it don't then don't. But forget the time ban. If you meet someone and can't keep your hands off him after a fortnight, then go for it. Life is short.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:43 PM

You meant "restful" sleep, didn't you Guest, csfawb?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 06:45 PM

Six months! I'd feel unwanted. In middle age six months is more like two years, the clock ticks.Life is to be lived. If you don't want   him within hours, I'd say he was the wrong one for you. I was 38 when I had my first date with my wife 23 years ago. I knew within minutes.So did she.We still do. Lust is good, so is love, they're nature's way. Both together are heaven, but one without the other can be hell.Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From:
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM

I think that this has to come down to individual circumstances. I must admit that, when I was younger I did get sexually involved at an early stage in relationships but even then had to have strong feelings for the guy. Nowadays I would prefer to get to know someone as a friend before committing to a relationship by sleeping with them - I've seen too many of my friends get too far into unsatisfactory relationships too fast and then have a problem getting loose.

Who makes a judgement as to whether someone is 'good in bed'? A guy can be a great sexual athlete but if the feeling isn't there then it's an empty act as far as I'm concerned. If there is a good relationship between two people then any sexual problems can be dealt with in one way or another. If I had to choose I'd rather have the emotional side of a relationship than the physical any day - both is hitting the jackpot. Maybe that's a female way of looking at it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:04 PM

Subject for a song Harvey? eh? Middle-age dating, newbies all over again - spirit unwilling and the flesh ............

On a serious note - I would say the first thing is there is a trend to web contacts &/or newspaper ads and my feeling there was and you will find similar views on this site is:-

The problem with text is that it doesn't convey the other 70 (or 80) % of human communication. The smiles, the blushing (Frueds say it is a sign of sexual submissiveness) the hand wringing, the mirroring. The problem then is we tend to place all judgement on the text. And in my limited experience there is a lot of fickleness and lack of honesty that you nail good and proper with an "eyeball".

Take one instant - I went to meet midday Sunday very public and she turned-up (not ever gaurranteed). Pleasant day no real spark but I am patient. We visit museum and art gallery - no real spark and she walks me to my car (her insistence). Then we have the game of spotting my car - a modest 10 yearold. By which time I had her sussed. The car was the analogue for the wallet (unless it was a phallic surrogate) and that was her criterion. I depart annoyed but thankful of the inevitable which came slowly. AND she was not the only one to use that criterion, in various shades of "subtle". I had a good job and fully paid for house.

Compare that with meeting Joy. At a Cajun dance. I am a keen dancer - so is she. That was three glorious years ago. Common interest and first contact is visual. Let's just say it is easier that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM

Takes all kinds, doesn't it? I think if you keep looking you will find someone who is on your wavelength about timing, Bothered. What I have found is that every situation is different. Some relationships build up very slowly, others more quickly. You just never know. You have to follow your instincts each time, that's all. There IS no one particular formula, as far as I'm concerned.

Then too, "no" can be a very useful word, can't it? :-) Even men get to use it now and then, hard as that is to believe! I have...but not to someone I was actually "dating"...more to certain individuals I happened to be around a lot...and they decided to take the initiative. I wasn't into it, for various reasons, on some of those occasions.

Of course, when you say "no" it helps to say it diplomatically...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

The emotional side of it is just fine. But I submit that it is good to know early on that your partner prefers wearing galoshes and playing a bassoon during sex. Of course, if you'd rather have that kind of surprise after having invested months and months of emotion...

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

I'm Canadian. Our women often DO wear galoshes. Don't make fun of our women. Them's fightin' words. And if there's the added bonus of her being a really GOOD bassoon player . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Strick
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 07:28 PM

I'm so out of date that any opinion of mine should be disqualifed, but I've heard something about a "three date rule" that apparently causes some confusion.

Didn't Seinfeld do a bit about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM

Thank you all so much for these comments. It is helping me a lot, and I'm glad to see that there are at least a few people living on the same planet as me, but comments from the other planet are very helpful in getting my thoughts clearer.

Some people have talked about 'life being too short': Maybe it depends on personality. Some people will gobble their favourite item of food on the plate first. Others know the pleasure of eating the rest slowly and watching and leaving the best until the end and then truly s a v o u r i n g it. How does a child eat ? How does a connoisseur eat ? I am sure you are right, Harvey. Desire is instantaneous. You can want someone, but you don't have to act on that straight away.

'Guest,can't speak for all women but..": Your comments have helped me a lot. To me, the phrases "if it feels good, do it" and "sex can be recreational" and your referring to "the act" is what is "clinical", more so than my saying it is wise for people to wait for months before sleeping with each other.

You say: "The act itself is the perfect way to indulge our senses, relieve tensions and lead to a restful sleep." I know exactly what you mean. You are talking about the purely physical orgasmic level of experience. I enjoy and indulge those senses (without a partner)with great satisfaction most nights.

I may be out of touch and old-fashioned, but I think sex with a partner is meant to go so far beyond the mere physical "relief of tension". We humans are body, mind and spirit. You say: "But sex can be recreational. Unless you view every prospective partner as a husband." Yes I do. Not in the sense of a 'legal piece of paper husband' but in the sense of someone with whom I share everything. For whom nothing about me is hidden. Where this Trust, Honesty and Love. That is a true husband and wife, "Married with God's blessing" without necessarily a church or a priest. You can have a good idea about the nature of a person within seconds of meeting them, but it takes time for trust, honesty and love to grow to fruition. Then, and only then, you are not "indulging in physical sex", you are Making Love.

(Less) Bothered and Bewildered, thanks to ALL your comments. I am coming to the conclusion that I am certainly out of step with a lot of people's thinking, but I cannot change the way I am. "To thine own self be true". I am certainly not judging or criticizing anybody else's views here. This is all just helping me (and maybe hopefully others) to think around this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: open mike
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 08:44 PM

Well, there are 28 posts on the moolit beach thread
and there are 28 posts on the dating thread...
they are neck in neck (neckin' neck?)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM

It's a Libra thing, OM!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:21 PM

Look, if the guy wants to have sex and you don't, just say, "Thanks for the lovely evening," and then give him Rustic Rebel's phone number.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:25 PM

Well, B&B, you may be out of step with a lot of people's thinking, but I'm apparently the last person on earth who still views sex as something to be saved for marriage. Before y'all start throwing things at me, I do not sit in judgment on anyone - that is just my personal belief, maybe just a throwback to all that good, old-fashioned Irish Catholic guilt I was raised on... or maybe not. At any rate, that's one of the reasons I have not dated in the 13 years I have been widowed... I know guys generally want "more" than what I feel I can give, and I have no desire to be spending my evenings fending off, physically or verbally, someone's advances. Also, what kind of a relationship would it be if I felt I was denying my partner something that was important to him? If this all adds up to a vow of celibacy, so be it. I can't change the way I am either.

Now, this is not to say that if 6 months or a year or 10 years from now, the "right" person might come along, I might find myself thinking differently on this subject, because if there is one thing I have learned, it is that I cannot predict the future, and a lot of the things I used to believe, I don't believe any more. So maybe I can't change the way I am, but life can change me. And has done, and probably will again.

But as for jumping into bed after 2 dates, for all the good reasons others have listed here, no, sorry, don't see that happening any time soon. If that's what dating's all about these days, I'll skip it, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:27 PM

Don't worry yourself sweetie... it is important that you follow your inner voice in this matter. If the people around us are quite simply, wrong... you wouldn't want to be in step with them anyway. Especially on the subject of intimacy. The only person who can 'make sure' you are having your emotional needs met, and your need for safety guarenteed... is you. You set the stage, and you have to make the proper choices for yourself.

Also, your 'way of loving' needs to be a language your partner speaks fairly fluently...

Good luck! ...and may you find just the right person.
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:37 PM

I think it is commendable to want to wait....if you're not comfortable with it...then why do it? I never saw why people jumped into bed with each other right away anyways...it is much better when there is an emotional tie between the two people instead of let's just fuck and get it over with.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 09:44 PM

No smoke, no fire... You'll know...

Ain't about what *he* wants but what *you* want... Shoot, if he's "the one" you'll be jumpin' his bones about the third date.

Time tables go out the window when it comes to love........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:21 PM

That's it. That's the pompitous of love. Dang, after all these years. Now I know what that line meant.

I agree with hobbitwoman and TtR's post. It's a very personal decision, and the person and timing have got to be just right.

Like cooking a 2 minute and 45 second egg. (OK, the simile's all wrong, but ya know?) Like picking just the perfect, ripe onion to add on top of the pizza. Like blue cheese and that je ne sais pas quois flavour of the muscatel. Like garlic snails on whole wheat crackers with peanut butter. Like smoked oysters and zig-zag papers. Like two-ply tissue and a runny nose. Like . . . . Oh, I could go on, but you know what I mean. If it ain't right, it ain't right.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 08 Mar 04 - 10:23 PM

Damn - calendars - one can work into an Irish Buzz.....and discover they were days before they was.

See the current film "50-One-Dates" go home and then view "Ground-Hog's Day."

Times have changed....it is time for you.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Unless you are Episcopalian, Luthern, Baptist, Brethern, Orthodox....in which case..."sin" is still "SIN!"

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:09 AM

gee whiz, garg...you sound like you have an Irish Buzz! This chick wants spiritual union when she has sex. So you might as well forget any designs you might have had on her!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:23 AM

Why would he draw designs on her?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:56 AM

sounds kind of kinky to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: open mike
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:59 AM

i think they make some body paints/bath soaps to use on your lover when applying those designs...maybe they are using henna tatoos?!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:25 AM

shouldn't that be henna taboos?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: SueB
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:21 AM

B&B, I have researched the question, and I believe I have the definitive answer. According to my copy of The Rules (I sent it to my sister 6 or 7 years ago as a gag gift, and she was mortally offended and sent it back)..."don't be surprised if the man you're dating gets very angry when you kiss him goodnight in the lobby at the end of your second date rather than invite him upstairs for a drink. He has probably been spoiled by other women" (those sluts!)"who slept with him on the first or second date and now he feels he's being denied this pleasure. But don't worry. Anger indicates interest, and you might be surprised, for he will probably call you again!" The author goes on to say, "Making him wait will only increase his desire and create more passion when you finally have sex whenever you're ready." That's Rule #15: Don't rush into sex.

Hope this helps!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 02:42 AM

My number- 555-horny. You have mine, and Bee-duby-ell's permission to give that number out as long as the man has a beautiful smile, eye's that light the way to my passion, a laugh that's loud, robust, and sensitive, and a big....

heart.


Ps. This is only directed to Bee-Dubya-
You shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

LOL! I was wondering when the reaction would come.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:45 AM

I'm coming onto most of these threads way too late, but that's because I'm limited to the time I can spend online...sorry. I just wanted to say this...
I'm a child of the 60s, and looking back on my sexual history, I have had far more sex because I felt I was supposed to, than sex because I was ready for it.
Being older for me means learning what I really like, and what feels right, and not feeling pushed by anyone or anything to act before I'm damn well ready.
Follow your gut on this. Wait until you're ready, whether it's after one or one hundred dates. This is harder for woman because we've been taught to acquiesce, but age also has it's privileges, and the the biggest is to be who you've grown into being, yes?
..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Heart-broken
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

Having been wooed, courted and won (?) with great energy, application and lies, through the initial medium of Mudcat and then dumped unceremoniously I would now say some of these posts about the behaviour of men of a certain age are spot on.

There are men of a certain age who revert to being teenagers - there are men (usually 50 more or less) who think women of their age must be deperate and grateful and in fact, like teenagers, don't expect a committment: after all they've had their fingers burned by alimony etc and plus it's too exciting being let into the candy store.

There are men of this age who (I've seen them) with a thought bubble above their heads that says "I am short, fat, grey, balding and a preference for grey, sagging, nylon underwear, dubious laundry habits and a prediliction for boring the arse off everyone (including my mates) but hey, I have a penis so that makes all the foregoing desirable?"

Men are boring and predictable - and face it, honey- all the good ones got snaffled long ago - or are still into biological imperatives such as making it with fertile females (ie, under 40) or they are gay. The only ones worth not giving a wide berth to are widowers.

Fact: whereas men not in relationships are generally (sexually and mentally) wankers - for solitary women, masturbation gives predictably satisfactory results without having grey, nylon, laundry chores.

Dating? Forget it. Men - forget them. Concentrate on creating a fulfilling life for yourself (after all, unless you hook a toy boy we women are all going to end up living longer and alone anyway).

Me: after the appalling heart break by someone who took great care to pass all the inbuilt checks - I'm gonna be a lesbian. At least that's having sex and a relationship with a species I can understand and relate to.   Men really are from the planet Zog and why waste any more of your life trying to understand them?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:17 PM

I posted as "guest" (6th post). I deleted cookies the other day and forgot the forum would do that.

I still believe in what I said, regardless of the other opinions presented.
Life is short? All the better to savour the desire and other intangible feelings leading up to making love. As a middle age(?)(37) male I find others constantly flirting with me because of the ring on my finger and really don't know how to react. Are they joking or serious? I suppose it doesn't matter because I'm just a faithful old dog anyway.

This isn't a game. This isn't a food item with an expiration date.
Making love is a selfless "miracle" between two lovers where each should be giving themselves to the other while trying their best to love and please the other.

I believe the best way to express what I'm trying to say is with that great line from a Who song:

"One and one don't make two, One and one make one"

Call me a Southern Gentleman or a hopeless romantic, its how I feel.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

...my cookie's gone now too at the moment but I did not write as Heart-Broken in case anyone thinks I did! LOL I'm still waiting for another BillD/JoeOffer/RogerinBaltimore/Bee-dubya-ell/Rapaire/JerryRassumusen/ArtThieme, etc etc to come into my little life...Hell, I'd even go for a McGrath if he would give me an hour of silence every day! hahahahaha

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:32 PM

GUEST, Heart-broken,

Bad relationship, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:36 PM

Oh, and Hobbitwoman,
Here's hoping for a nice rotund gentleman hobbit with nicely manicured and groomed hairy feet to come your way soon!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Oh yes, and I can think of at least three Mudcat men whom HB could be referring to, and several more as many Mudcat women who could have written as Heart-Broken!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:37 PM

Hey GUEST Heartbroken,
WOW! I have to admit that everything you said could have been written by me on almost any day in the past few years...but I do have some wonderful men friends who I've never had (or in some cases, contemplated having) sex with, and primarily because of them, I haven't given up entirely on that end of the gender pool...But, well, I am pretty darned contented with a fresh batch of C batteries, some home-made erotica, and chocolate in some form or other for "afters"..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harpgirl again
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:39 PM

Ellenpoly, as my son would say, "I did not need to know that!" LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

GUEST: Heart-broken,

Change hands; you'll think it's someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:08 PM

Sincere thanks, all of you, for giving me more to think about and also making me laugh about this ! Galoshes and henna tattoos...wow, what else have I been missing all my life ?

I am still going with my gut feelings and instinct on this. You summed up exactly how I feel, Ellenpoly. I come from the same kind of background of experiences when I was young, and I learned from the mistakes I made. I think maybe that is what makes me so determined now. Thanks for your post: you put it very well.

SueB: whoever wrote that Rule Book is spot on ! Unwittingly, I had been applying Rule #15 and it has had the exact effect described. Surprise, surprise, the man in question came to see me today and I think I should now rename myself "Hot, Bothered and Bewildered" ;) I must add that this man originates from North Africa and I think I have quite a challenge here. He is more than likely thinking the same. Bargaining over couscous in the souk would be a piece of cake by comparison. Time...or six months...or less ;) will tell.

Hot, Bothered and Bewildered

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,guest, once burned, twice shy
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

For those who are broken-hearted it is probably easier to cure
or re-bound from than the broken-spirit which results from being
a victim of being raped.
In either case, hold your head up,and guard your heart and be careful
not to get into situations you may regret.
Some guys ruin it for all the others.
Trust is a hard thing to gain or earn after it has been broken.
Sorry to hear your heart was broken, but i hope that you will not give
up and that a better situation will present itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Rasener
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

Just to come back into the thread.
I met my wife 28 years ago, and went to bed with her on the 2nd date.
We have never strayed in all those years, and we are lucky to have 2 daughters.
That puts paid to a few comments about waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

I was referring to your first post, Ellenpoly. The one about the benefits of being older and being true to the person you have become, not the one about 'batteries and chocolate'. Heck, now I know about galoshes and henna and bassoons.....who needs anything more?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 01:33 PM

HB's post just arrived here on the planet Zog by sub-ether implicate waveform. The general consensus is that it is touching, mystifying, and as heartbreaking as it is heartbroken.   We'd like to propose a contract for serial installments of the whoole story in greater detail, in order to know what lessons might be learned therefrom.

Please forward your address in the Greek islands so we can forward a contract.

A,

Freelance Translation Coordinator
"Foggy Translation Inclirprated"
Zog/Mars and Mars/Venus Translations Cheap...
Planet Zog

"If it doesn't make sense, get Foggy!"

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

My experiences, after I was divorced and started dating, were that women who were dating were pretty agressively interested in the physical aspect of things--men are too--Dating is about looking for love, romance, and all that other stuff--maybe for a lifetime, but also, maybe just for a little fling--

The thing is, when you meet someone, you either feel the chemistry or you don't--you are under no obligation to feel or do anything-- but when the chemistry is there, the good sense and practicality go out the window, and things tend to move real fast--If you are thinking that you want to wait six months, then you really are out of touch----not with the world, but with yourself--

It sounds like you are not romantically interested in this person--nothing wrong with that at all--maybe he isn't right for you, or you are not ready for a new romance, or you need to move your life in a direction that is not based on your relationship with a man--

The problem is that you've got this guy interested in you when you are not interested in him, and, worse, you are not recognizing that you are not interested, and are thinking that it has to do with your "being out of touch with the way things are today" or some such stuff--

First thing to do is tell the guy that whatever he is feeling, it isn't happening for you, and so there is not going to be any sex. Try not to make too big a deal out of it, but be crystal clear--

Next thing is to sit down and figure out if you really want to be dating at all--it doesn't sound like you are ready to me, and if you keep "dating" when you aren't ready for the expectations, you'll end up with more problems like this one, and worse--

If you want to spend time with men without the pressure,   get involved in a group activity like bowling or basket weaving, or singing folk music, and if someone wants to have a drink, make it a group thing--That way you can have fun without any awkward moments--

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: hobbitwoman
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:47 PM

Thanks, Chief...if he comes along, fine, but I'm happy as is. Oh, and btw - 37 is NOT middle-aged! You've got a way to go before you reach middle aged. Why, in the Shire, you'd not be allowed to cross the street alone at age 37 - that is, if we had to worry about such things! ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: MAG
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM

My first love was a gut-wrenching, soul searing, shattering experience -- sent me (literally) screaming into the arms of the women's movement -- only good thing I got out of it.

I've met a lotta nice guys here on the 'Cat. Nice guys do restorie one's faith in the other half of the species.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST, someone you have yet to meet
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 10:54 PM

An Open Letter To My (potential) Friend and Lover

All of us are little more than ignorant dolts who are trying to figure out how to live our respective lives. No heterosexual male totally understands what it is like to be a female or to think like one. The reverse is also true. Clues are few and unreliable. We all stumble our way through our relationships, often wishing there would be an epiphany through which the mysteries would be revealed. This miracle never happens, although vague glimpses sometimes come into view. Without additional guidance, what we are left with are contrived rules that are filled with exceptions, contradictions, paradoxes and ironies. They seem to create more problems than they solve and give almost no insight at all to the basic differences between us. And so it remains that the only way to keep from offending each other or hurting each other is through communication. Frank, straightforward communication helps me to understand your needs and concerns and helps you to understand mine. If you don't tell me what is on your mind, I am almost certainly destined to cause you some manner of discomfort. When you try to examine the reasoning behind my behaviour or demeanor, you quickly realize that you just can't imagine. You can't imagine because you are not of the same sex as well as because, more than likely, I have not communicated with you well enough for you to begin to understand. Again, the reverse is also often the case. I sometimes find that I cannot, for the life of me, understand what I did to offend, to hurt or to puzzle you.

I am writing you to ask that you try harder to communicate with me. I promise I will do the same. However, we both must realize that there will be times when we will do or say something that simply won't fit within the thinking of the other. We must realize that we cannot possibly be in sync much of the time and that we are sure to encounter difficult issues because of it. You are no more likely to totally understand me than I am to totally understand you. But if we make a genuine effort toward honest communication, we can shorten the gap enough to be able to enjoy each other for a long time to come.

At the root of this is that we must learn to be in touch with ourselves. I can't begin to tell you how I feel if I don't recognize it myself. You can't tell me what you want from me until you are in touch with your own feelings. It is my duty to you and yours to me to examine what is deep within and to express it openly. It is through this process that I hope you and I can set aside the rules and assumptions and create our very own framework for our relationship.

To say "I love you" is to say that I cherish all that you are and that I want to give to you as much as I can of what you think of as good. The first part is easy. The rest is something I cannot do without honest communication from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:19 PM

Hobbitwoman,
So I am lead to understand from my reading.
According to my other literature, were I a gnome they wouldn't even try to potty train me for another 80 years or so.
Good thing I'm human then!

Ladies, if plastic, batteries and chocolate can meet all your needs then I would be the first to wish you well on your solo flights. I would however ask that you not brand all of us males based on your, so far, bad experiences.

I guess I am truly a hopeless romantic in thinking that there is a perfect someone out there for each of us. I used to think mine was sitting in a rice paddy in China somewhere. So I'm a cynical hopeless romantic!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 04 - 11:42 PM

Guest:

My, my -- well spoken and honestly too. My compliments and sympathies.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: andi
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:14 AM

If a man does not have enough respect for you to wait until YOU are comfortable and willing to have sex, then he is not worth having.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:00 AM

andi - Yup. You hit the nail on the head that time.

Heartbroken - You may be surprised to learn that I (a man) have come to sort of the same general conclusion about dating/living with women as you have about men! I can't be bothered anymore. But with some differences...

I feel no need to become gay in order to fill the void. Men don't physically attract me for some reason...and more importantly: There is no void! :-) I am quite happy being single.

I feel no reason to denigrate women now or complain about them, though. I still have a high opinion of them in a general sense, I just don't seem to find happiness in having romantic relationships with them. A little happiness, yes, but a whole lot more complication and heartache that kind of wrecks my emotional life as time goes by. It just doesn't work for me. I like my own company.

Masturbation? Well, it's okay, but it becomes less important as time goes by and one gets older. Not that I'm arguing against it. I'm not. If anyone finds it helps them enjoy life more, that's just fine with me. I've studied Taoist health techniques for many years, and I would suggest that men (but not women) need to lessen their indulgence in this practice as they get older for various health and energy reasons. All I can say is, you women are lucky when it comes to this particular matter! :-) You're like the energizer bunny. I am green with envy.

I was amused by some of the stuff you wrote. Yeah, the majority of men ARE boring and predictable! I've been noticing that myself ever since I was 15 years old (or even younger). I've always thought the average woman had a lot more on the uptake...but I think that's as much a result of cultural brainwashing as it is of innate gender characteristics. This society teaches men to be assholes, to put it bluntly. And most of them are so naive that they fall for it in their youth and never recover!

Pity them in their innocence, I say.

Yeah, the average middle-aged guy may be, as you say, "short, fat, grey, balding, with a preference for grey, sagging, nylon underwear, dubious laundry habits and a prediliction for boring the arse off everyone, but hey, he has a penis so that makes all the foregoing desirable?"

LOL! I love your description of the generic middle-aged guy. Here's mine: "reasonably tall, thin, barely any grey at all (at age 56), lots of hair on my head, cotton underwear (some saggy, some not), reasonably disciplined laundry habits, and hey, I have a penis, but I was tortured for years with doubts about my desirability, starting way back when I was, oh, maybe 14 years old. Having a penis wasn't enough, Heartbroken!!! I was deeply afraid that I was too thin, too shy, and not macho enough for the girls. I was afraid that my glasses would put them off, so I got contact lenses. I was afraid that they'd think I was too serious (they did, as a matter of fact). I was afraid that they'd be interested in more macho, popular guys (they were). I was afraid they would like loudmouthed, aggressive assholes better than a quiet, serious guy in search of true love (and this often proved true...but not invariably, I am happy to say)."

My description diverges a bit from yours, yes?

I'm writing all this cos I can't sleep, and I'm having some fun...your post really gave me a lot to think about.

Let's see. Hmmm. What else?

"All the good ones got snaffled long ago"(?) Yeah, probably. One can say the same of the good women, if one is inclined to be cynical about it.

"men not in relationships are generally (sexually and mentally) wankers" Hey, c'mon! I can call people names too, ya know. Bleagh! Phooey to you. I will respond by saying, look...most of the men who ARE in relationships with women are wankers. It's just a matter of averages. Us non-relationship guys are no worse, specially if we chose to be single. Maybe we're just not blind conformists who do what everyone told us to.

Internet romance? I do NOT recommend wooing people by way of a computer screen...but who am I to say? I know some happy couples who did it that way and lucked out. I know others who had the opposite experience entirely. I have my doubts about it.

Midlife crisis? Middle-aged men revert to being teenagers because they see their mortality looming up fast and they panic. They figure it's their last chance for the elusive happiness that they were TOLD they would find with a woman, back when they were impressionable little boys. Everyone told them that...books, movies, TV shows, their parents...what were they supposed to think? Now the poor fellow is getting old and grey and bald, his sexual energy is lessening year by year, his skin is getting wrinkly, his eyesight is declining, and he thinks, "Yikes! What have I done with all the time? I was promised not just happiness, but total ecstasy and fulfillment for life with the woman of my dreams. It still hasn't happened! I've only got a few years left! Gotta find that woman!!!"

It's sad. He was never told to look in the right place for his true happiness: inside himself in his own deepest heart of hearts...and in all the myriad of relationships that life presents to him along the way...not in just the one exclusive, sexually centered little domestic entanglement with the one exclusive goddess/whore of the fantastic and very unrealistic dream that was foisted upon him.

(My apologies to those of you who feel that you have indeed found her...may you be blessed.)

I think that about covers it.

G'night.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:22 AM

When I dated, as a young divorced mother of two, I was always totally honest with the person. Sometimes I had to be blunt, look them in the eye and say, "You may buy me a drink, take me to dinner, etc., but I will NOT fuck you for it." Most times when it came to that, the guys were relieved and we went on to have a nice time. I think they were glad to get it out in the open, so that there were no awkward moments or guessing games of will she/won't she, should I/shouldn't I.

However, it is a misconception, imo, that men have more of a sex drive than women; women havne't had as much opportunity to be as open about it as men, until the past two or three decades. I know plenty of centre-aged women who would welcome finding a man of similar age who can still get it "up" and is still interested in having a good romp.

Having said all of that, like a few others have noted, Rog and I melded our hearts, souls, and bodies on our first date and our 24th anniversary is in two days. What's funny about that is I'd been twice-married and divorced before that, plus dated a lot and swore I would never sleep with a guy, again, until we'd dated a few times! Ya never know when a soul mate is going to come along and then whatever you decide feels right no matter which date it is, imo.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:44 AM

Precisely, Andi !

'Middle Aged Man', in answer to some of the points you made:

You said: "When the chemistry is there, the good sense and practicality go out of the window". No they don't !! The chemistry is very much there between me and this man. It was there from the minute we set eyes on each other. We met in the course of a 'normal' working day, not in a social situation where either of us were actively out looking for a mate. He has turned up in my life like a bolt from the blue. Yes, I am romantically interested in him. It would be very easy for me to go along with his wishes and leap into bed with him right now, and I know, from the times we have spent together, it would be a delightful experience for both of us. You think I don't want to do that ? Of course I do. And, of course, I have made the way I feel about the situation, and that this is too early, clear to him. It would be foolish and unkind of me not to.

But, I am a grown woman who made mistakes when she was younger, and learned from them. How, after two weeks, can there have been time to get to know him enough for trust to exist between us to the extent of total intimacy ? From a man's point of view: "Is she really interested in ME, or just wanting financial security ?" (see Mr. Red's experiences). From my point of view, in this instance: "Is he really interested in ME - human beings could all win Oscars as actors - or, as a foreigner working in this country, does he see me and my address as a way to stay here ?" Only time can answer those kind of questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:11 AM

What an interesting thread. First of all, I guess I have to say that my comments about C Batteries, chocolate, etc, though true to a certain extent, was not meant to be taken as the best way to end up at the age of 42, 52, or 62...It's just a way that sometimes suits.

Little Hawk, we were cut from the same cloth. I felt it from the first. Funny that, but I keep nodding my head whenever I read your postings.

Anyway, I just wanted to add that sex between a man and a woman has never been more complicated. What began as an impulse towards procreation has become the stuff of literature, art, music,...I can hardly think of a subject that isn't in some way now connected to that once only physical act.

Yes, relationships are often difficult to navigate, and sometimes we crash and burn with such force that the magnitude of the event can stop us from ever wanting to go that route again. This can be devastating for many. Some go on and take up the reins again, because we feel the need so strongly,and down the road find what in a sense we might all wish to find-a compassionate, loving, supportive connection. But for those of us who have taken the relationship path, whether for permanent, temporary, good or ill, (or both), and find we are still alone- we have two choices; keep going down that path because it is always there until we keel over...or take another path alone. They can both be satisfying if we are ready for what they offer us.

Men and women are different. Duh. We have our bodies and our language to attempt communication and understanding. Sometimes no matter what we do, how pure our intentions, we'll still have a break-down in making sense of how the other one ticks. What I found within the course of my decade-long marriage, which is now a long way back in the past, but the lessons not forgotten, is that there is little chance of a connection being maintained if there is a power struggle going on between the couple. I was immensely fortunate that within one of the craziest marriages imaginable, the one thing we didn't do to each other is have power plays. We respected our differences, our strengths, and weaknesses, and did our best to compliment each other. And we worked together 24 hours a day, so I'd say that part of it was enormously successful. The sex, well, I won't go into detail here, because in the words of harpgirl's son, you do not need to know that...but it waxed and waned, and I think that was also part of what happens in a long term connection.

So what's the point, as I digress all over the place? Ah-we are two genders within the same species...but because of our brains, there are far more differences between us than with other species. We need to remember that and not have expectations that the connection will be necessarily immediate, easy, or lasting. If ANY of those do happen, count yourself lucky ducks and do your best not to blow it. But the human department store has many floors, and there is no "one size fits all"...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Guessed
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:40 AM

a cutting from the Planet Zog Daily Planet

Anyone finding pieces of broken heart please send in plain brown envelope to Ms Irate, Planet Angry.
Please - no Glue.

It is only a guess BUT some people are attracted to others with a bit of "something" about them. People with latent anger might just have "anger making" confused with "anti-wimp".   Nice guys and wimp are often confused as the same thing. They are not.   

And as for waiting 6 months, level with the person, state your road map. It will help them decide. If that worries you then tell them. Honesty is disarming if the person is right. And if you are angry tell them, but DONT SHOUT.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:33 AM

i have been single for four years, and found the first four weeks the hardest. extremely tough. but then I got used to it, and even got to enjoy my peace.

i don't know what this has to do with music, but I have found as I've got older that people become more of themselves, more uniquely different, as we move through the decades. and that means also knowing clearly what you want to get close to, and what you can't tolerate. being eccentric, having particular interests, having a blunt sense of humour, all these things make up a cocktail of attraction of deterrence. people are less prepared to compromise or modify behaviour when older.

Birds display with their dances and feathers (have you ever witnessed brolgas dancing? .. be entranced).

we display with our wit, our music, our eyes.

for me the important things are intelligence, humour, a particular political view, confidence, and talent.

some people have been very frank on this thread. there are lots of reasons, explanations, hopes and horror stories.

Recently I went to a fund raising party with some girlfriends. There were some very distinguished looking, extremely well dressed men there, aged in their 50-60s.. One of them came over to our table and flirted heavily. He was a very charming man. when he introduced himself and his friends by nickname, I recognised them as some of the most dangerous crims in Australia. The Silver Fox, Abo Henry, etc... we had a very pleasant night, but I didn't give him my phone number.

some people say that going looking is the way. but for me it has only happened when i wasn't looking.

so i'm not (but does that mean i really am?)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:56 AM

I think Ellenpoly and Little Hawk should meet one another! They both write so eloquently...

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:04 AM

I think it's been established that we are alike in liking to be alone. This is hardly a good beginning to anything more than enjoying each others' postings...from a distance. I'm enjoying that a whole lot, thanks harpgirl. PS-Say hi to your son for me!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

Dear B&B,

I have become single a couple of times now as a mature woman & have had the same experience you had. Frankly, I don't find dating as a non-teenager to be much fun. I don't think men have changed--sex tends to be a strong drive for them--but I think they are more comfortable with letting their desires be known. Although I might prefer a bit more of a romantic flare, I can deal w/ the honesty of a man telling me, upfront, that he wants to sleep w/ me. At my current age of 50, I am confident enough in myself that I can take that information & decide whether that's what I want, too. If it's not, I try to be clear & honest in my answer. I don't think the current openness is a particular problem. The only thing that offends me is lack of honesty & mutual respect between the sexes. It's one thing to tell me you want to have sex w/ me. It's another to assume I will do so & to treat me disrespectfully if I don't choose to. Another factor, however, is to try to avoid giving mixed signals to the other sex. Many men will be looking for any indication that you *will* sleep w/ them. It is often difficult, going into a dating situation, to know what you may want to do. I've found, to my dismay, that flirting behavior can lead to misunderstandings, no matter how many rational words I utter. There's no perfect solution. I'm convinced that men & women just think differently. Good luck; I empathize!

best,

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: matai
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:31 AM

(some thoughts on this subject)
touch is often something that is quite hard to do, it can be faked, acted out...actually feeling and wanting the touching can be fraught with anxieties, insecurities, fallacious beliefs about oneself and others...but if i took all that into consideration i'd never do it...sometimes one has to take a risk...maybe it pays off, maybe it doesn't...i like to be alone but i also like to be with...so I reach out...am met with indifference...othertimes there is response... maybe the response is different from what i expect so i have to rethink, step back, try again....move jerkily into this relationship i'm having/going to have/almost have had...who knows? aren't there always evolutionary aspects?

Matai

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM

Please pardon me if I ramble just a bit. There have been many issues brought to light here that I want to address.

That the two genders are different appears at first glance to be a no-brainer. (Or as someone said, "Duh".) What I think I see being pointed out over and over here is that we often forget that basic tenet and what it means. It can be a lifetime occupation just to try to compensate for the lack of the ability to understand the drives and thought processes of another. Not everyone chooses to make that effort. It is a lot of work and can sometimes prove not to be worth the bother.

It may surprise you to know that I don't like most men. I don't know whether to blame the demeanor of so many of them on bad role models, television or what; but I will add the words, self-absorbed and pretentious, to Little Hawk's mention of the "loudmouthed, aggressive assholes". Boring? I'm not sure that is the right word. Boorish seems to fit much better. Wearisome fits as well. I find all the pissing contests and Neanderthal grunting quite wearisome. I think it is extremely sad that so many men put so much energy into perpetuating the macho façade, whatever the reason. What I will never understand for as long as I live is that so many of these men are married. This means that some women found these features acceptable enough (or even attractive enough!) to vow to live with them for eternity (or "until divorce do we part".) Can those women really be that desperate? Or do they cling to the notion that they can influence a change? I just don't get it.

As I hope you have discovered for yourself, not all men are as I have described. There are more gentle and even more genteel models; but because of their very nature, they are much harder to find. Lacking the macho ostentation, they don't stand out in most crowds. It is these men who are more likely to be the ones Freda speaks of that "display with [their] wit, [their] music, [their] eyes." I very much like most men of this sort. I believe it is these men who are usually more in touch with themselves and who are, therefore, perhaps more able to be in touch with the women in their lives.

Whether either of these groups of men is more capable than the other of respecting a woman's wish to abstain from having sex for a lengthy period of time is not something I can accurately assess. While I suspect it would be the latter group, my best guess is that the majority of men of either group, no matter how much they might feel toward a woman, would expect to have sex with her once the romance was well under way. I suppose there are people who can intellectualize abstention and categorize it as an exercise in the demonstration of respect. Personally, I can find no justification for what I see as the denial of an extremely important aspect of the relationship. Lacking more accurate parallels, I would have to compare it with choosing not to discuss financial matters until after you have been in an otherwise complete relationship for many months. Do you really not want to know about such a vital issue until you have invested so much emotion and effort in the relationship? I refer again to my caveat regarding galoshes and bassoons. I am about as hopelessly romantic as they get; but there is a practical side that should never be eliminated from consideration.

I believe I do understand what you are wanting, B&B. I dated and eventually married a woman who had written a treatise on "Virginity After Marriage". But even she changed her stance in short order.

bbc is spot on about the signals. I have been on both sides of having signals to be misread. It can be a very difficult matter. What some might interpret as simple flirtation or teasing, others will see as overt invitation for much more. Saying what you want and don't want clearly and succinctly is very good and all. But doing so does take a lot of the fun out of the flirtation bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:25 AM

Couldn't agree more, AllanC. I go to the local restaurant, observe the "men" in action, doing their usual pretentious blathering, oneupmanship, macho posing, cursing, dumb jokes, etc...and think, "Why would any woman be impressed by these guys?" It depends on the restaurant though. There's one place in this town, La Mezzaluna, that actually seems to attract men with some subtlety and maturity...as well as some very interesting women as well. It's a great place to have lunch.

Harpgirl - Now, don't go trying to set me up with anyone... :-) Like I said, I'm suspicious of the concept of Internet romance. And things are going pretty smoothly right now.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for your comments, Allan. Part of what I was trying to say, at the end, is that I don't always know exactly what I want out of a relationship. That complicates things. It feels natural to flirt w/ some folks. That doesn't necessarily mean I want them in my pants. Perhaps it's better to try to control flirting, but, perhaps, the opposite sex should also give equal weight to the words that are said. Flirting can be a lot of fun for both parties, but I don't think it should be assumed to be foreplay.

I have found a lot of men I like, respect, &/or am attracted to. They are "out there." Unfortunately, in our age group, the majority of them are already in relationship.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:01 AM

Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?

Depends on which era you are referring to. In the 1960's many men (and girls) would have thought that two days (let alone weeks) was a long time to wait.

Of course a lot depends on how many times you had seen your partner in the two weeks and how you had behaved towards him. At one one time many women believed that it was very unladylike to ever say yes to a fellow until he had badgered her for quite a time, however much she wanted to. The natural male reaction to this was to start asking for sex reasonably soon, but not to actually expect to get an assent for some time.

I must admit that if I had dated a girl who was still not sure if she wanted sex or not after a reasonable time, I would probably have to decide whether the relationship was satisfying enough to continue on a purely platonic basis - there have been quite a few that have, but not as an exclusive relationship.

Mind you I went out with one lady who, although she allowed quite a lot of petting, would not let things "go all the way". One night however, she suddenly asked me to do that very thing. I was rather caught out and explained that I didn't have a condom. "Oh that doesn't matter", she said "I started taking the pill just after I met you and now that a couple of months are up it should be quite safe".

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,harp
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

sorry, LH...it's just that I think you are such a good catch!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

Harpgirl, you may be tripping over the liability of Internet romance right there! Fortunately, it's not a call I have to make!

:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

That statement that all the good men are already in relationship is simply not true.

I have seen case after case where people continue to be attracted to inappopriate partners, and like the movie Groundhogs Day, repeat the same mistake time after time, and continue to blame it on everyone but themselves.
Find out why you are attracted to the wrong type! Sure it's a lot harder than blaming all those "No good men/women" but it's the only way you are going to ever have a viable relationship.
Living with a therapist and being attracted to the wrong type of women myself tells me that I know what I'm talking about.

Case in point, a guy I know was talking about this wife and that wife, finally, I asked him how many times he'd been married. He said "7 times". I said "Doesn't that tell you something"? he answered, "Yes, I just havn't found the right one yet."
And, he was dead serious. He doesn't have a clue!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

Women use sex to get love. Men use love to get sex. Live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:52 PM

There is nothing to equal the experience of having sex with someone you love, but, how often does that happen? What do you do in the meantime? Hold your own? Have sex with someone you like?
I vote for 1, 3 and 2 in that order.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:02 PM

You're absolutely right, Kendall. Many people bop along from one dysfunctional relationship to the next, repeating their mistakes endlessly and blaming everyone else. These people would benefit from some good therapy, but the ones who are worst afflicted often would not even consider getting it! They wouldn't admit to such weakness, and besides, "it's the OTHER person's fault!"

The Sopranos is a very interesting show, because there you have Tony Soprano (the kind of guy who normally would not THINK of seeing a therapist)...and he goes to a therapist...and she's a good one. Very good scripts in that series.

Harpgirl - Well, thanks. :-) It's not so much that I'm a good catch, though. It's more that I'm a good friend and a great person to have a conversation with about almost anything or play music with. I've had plenty of longterm female (and male) friends who can vouch for that. I'm not really a good "catch" cos I seem to get a bit antsy after a while when I'm in a one-on-one relationship of the usual sort. Exactly why that is, I am still investigating. Maybe my childhood romantic expectations were a bit unrealistic? Did I say maybe? Ha!

My current therapist is a very smart lady, and she says this: Relationships are not primarily for what most people think they're for (to meet our needs and make us happy)...they are opportunities for rubbing off the rough edges in our own character by getting involved with people who irritate and stimulate those rough edges. This is uncomfortable and challenging. Once you have smoothed off most of your rough edges, you are much more likely to find greater harmony in relationships, and stop subconsciously seeking out people to do battle with.

Sex drive, of course, tends to confuse the issue, to say the least.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:40 PM

This will probably upset a few people if I say this, but the fact that the man involved is from North Africa may make the situation a little more complicated. Having had some experience in a similar situation I can tell you that the cultural attitude these men are likely to have towards women may be very different from the attitude of most Western Europeans or Americans. I had a couple of relationships with men from this part of the world and lived to regret it. They may be nice people but the deeper you get into a relationship the more they seem to fall back into the macho way of thinking they were raised in. Just a caveat. Remember that women in their culture are considered to be beneath men - period. And while they may expect sex from a western woman, they won't respect you after you get involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

Why do men behave in such a boorish manner? Lets see...after 4 years of proving that I was intelligent, caring, able and a lot of other positive adjectives, I still couldn't get a date with a girl if the pimply faced idiot jock asked her out first. I read a study that said when women feel the urge to procreate they look towards the "physically" superior male of the herd. When they want to settle down and raise the kids or just settle down they want the kind, caring, considerate men. Ufortunately by then those type of men have become discouraged and wandered off to their computers where they won't be judged by their outward physical appearance (and here I'm referring to overall appearance, not just whether a man is handsome or not).

Thats my $.02 (damnit they stole my cents sign!)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:40 PM

" Relationships are not primarily for what most people think they're for (to meet our needs and make us happy)...they are opportunities for rubbing off the rough edges in our own character by getting involved with people who irritate and stimulate those rough edges."

this moves in to the what you believe is what you get thread....

LH with respect i totally disagree with this statement, it assumes a lemming like drive towards being with someone for the wrong reasons.

I have had two defining relationships in my life. One was with a man who was charismatic, powerful, abusive and destructive. the relationship was volatile and unpleasant. luckily it only lasted five years, but it took another five years before i tried again.

the next person I got involved with was talented, gentle, intuitive and courteous. and, the intimate relationship was much more fulfilling with him than with the nasty guy. he wasn't afraid to love. we stayed together for 14 years, and during those 14 years our relationship was democratic and respectful.

one of the reasons i got involved with him, apart from the inital observation of affection and respect that his friends held him in, and the attraction, and our many interests in common, was because i knew i would be safe with him.

it was a good choice and gave us many happy years. we are still good friends and help each other out. our breakup was sad, carefully considered, but inevitable due to major life differences that developed. and no harsh words were spoken.

i will never again go into a rough edges relationship. and i know that it doesn't have to be like that. all it takes is mutual respect and acceptance.

respect is the biggest issue. to respect someone is everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 03:00 PM

Allan C

Thank you for that considered reply (the cedilla in façade tells us).

I have for over ten years been to festivals on my own, though since I met Joy she joins me for one ceilidh. On nights I am alone I make a point of dancing with many different woman (from kids to pensioners) to avoid giving signals but that doesn't always work and I usually resort to mentioning the girlfriend somehow. It is not that I have misread the signals so much as I don't want my signals to be unclear.
There have been unequivocal signals at times - like the confirmed non dancers asking (telling) me to dance, the corn dolly offering (charged with folk significance) and the surprise kiss.
I have to say at the level of self-worth I am thankful for those confirmations.

And to state something we have hinted at, skirted around (pun intended) but not managed to summarise pithilly this statistically significant fact (but not necessarilly true individually).

Men are problem-solvers, woman like to feel good about it.

Men - go figure. Women - tell me about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: bbc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:39 PM

freda,

I can relate to your comments. I've also had 2 meaningful relationships of length that have ended, one initiated by the man & one by me. They have been at either end of the spectrum, it seemed, in terms of personalities. So, kendall, I thought I *had* learned something. The fact remains that they both ended, leaving me feeling rather clueless about relationship. At present, I am enjoying a friendship w/ a man from my past. By most ways of reckoning, we have little in common. Still, we have fun together, help each other out, & care to hear about the details of the other's day-to-day happenings. I don't think he'll ever be the "love of my life" nor do I flatter myself that I hold that place in his life. Is this settling or is this a realistic, valid relationship? Maybe this thread is melding w/ the "What is love?" thread.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 05:40 PM

Pithily, nay! That was an erudite filip.

I find it interesting that freda listed respect (and acceptance) as the main ingredient. That's what I always told myself about my relationship with my ex who couldn't be trusted, as I accepted, before flitted off with her old boyfriend. . . . I'm going to experiment with the trust thing next, since it comes so highly recommended.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Heart-broken
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:27 PM

BRUCIE: No - not a bad relationship: a heart warming, soaringly wonderful, thrilling, soul-matched relationship based on mutual emotional recognition, and unsparing honesty about hopes, dreams and feelings. Until, one day, the other, presumably, decided it had been a nice dream (or distraction?), they'd enjoyed the good feelings they got from it - but decided to shoulder their real life again.

It would have been nice to been part of that decision: instead of being left to work out that this wasn't just them needing time out, but, as the days turned to weeks and then months, in fact I had been summarily weighed, judged and dumped.

So, yes, this guy has ruined for it all the rest. Like the song: "Why'd you have to be so good?" etc. Have been so massively taken in despite being on my guard, and then after continual reiteration and confirmation that this was different - the chemistry felt right, this was someone who didn't want to bonk my brains out, someone who could hold me by the hand, lift me up tenderly, make me laugh through my tears - goddamit, he was nearly a woman!

I guess that because I grew up in a fairly academic circumstances where minds mattered more than gender I kind of assume that people are first and foremost interested in my mind. Sadly, I am very often disappointed and taken aback that that is not the case and, try as I might, I cannot adjust my personality "downwards": so, Little Hawk, I'm as surprised as you to find my own gender can be aggressive in dating. Yes, like you, I spent years convinced that "boys" were immune to less obvious charms and shortcomings.

Kendall (and Little Hawk) – attracting the same sort of personality and blaming others. Well, all I can say is that demographics come into this. I know now that now being attractive and confident I get all kinds of men hitting on me – which gets kind of boring and predictable. Which is why the one that finally I let get under my skin and other places (someone on my own wave length - which is pretty off beat on occasions), was all the more devastating, because it wasn't predictable – but an, oh, so subtle, "horns of the buffalo", victory. One has to ask the question, why?

Why the completeness of the conquest (physical, emotional etc), did this satisfy some huge ego trip? EG: "Let's aim for someone lots of other guys want (and who holds out against them) prove she's no different, and can be had, in the end, just like all the others?" Perhaps they were proving something to themselves ....

I apologise for the "all (non-relationship) men are wankers" that was a sweeping generalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM

I am not reading into this situation that he was a bad awful creep and therefore you should never trust another man. Ladies take heed..likewise gents..this is what the RUles says and I think it is true..if he loves you enough..he will marry you. Fairly soon on in the process. If he does not marry you, there could be other reasons, but the main one is probably he does not love you enough. If you are not married, (and sometimes if you are) you are therefore quite vulnerable to being left in the lurch..otherwise he would have married you...see how it works? So ask him fairly soon if he wants to be married or not, at least in a theoretical way. If that does not jibe with what you want, part from him first.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 07:30 PM

"... summarily weighed, judged and dumped."

So damned sad that people (in this case, a man) are able to kid themselves about what they are really looking for in a partner and then not be up front about what to DO about the mistake.

I have met one woman who was pretty, charming, intelligent, witty, caring...etc., but whose romances were short and sad, and who never understood why. The truth was that she had this ideal template for "male companion", and the moment a man showed serious interest in her, she began the process of altering him to fit her notion of perfection...and she was not too subtle about it! The men usually wrikled their foreheads in confusion and slipped quietly away. (I did not DARE to tell her what my thoughts were....and thus I remained friends with her)

I also knew a man many years ago who went through women like a whirlwind....he was always charmed by any woman who proved 'hard to get', but once she gave in to him, he was bored with her. (I once threw him out of my house for trying to assert his power over a woman who was a guest of mine and now had an interest in someone else....he never understood why I was so upset with him and refused to have any more to do with him!)

Maybe it's just that people in this complex society have so many conflicting ideas of what is fair, interesting, reasonable and sexually desirable that the chances of a good match between them have decreased a lot in the last few decades. I have 27 interwoven theories, but no answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:16 PM

P've been there and I can assure you that arbitrary disconnection without explanation is not the purview of men, only, nor are they cut any less deep by it.

That said, here's part of the explanation, from an OLD internet humor piece:

Roger and Elaine



What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine.

He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time.   A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing anybody else. And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud:

"Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?"

And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself: Gee, I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of.   

And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months.

And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily toward . . . I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person?   

And Roger is thinking: . . . so that means it was . . . let's see...February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's, which means . . . lemme check the odometer...Whoa! I am way overdue for an oil change here!   

And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed, even before I sensed it-that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected.   

And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a garbage truck, and I paid those bastards

And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry, too. I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure.   

And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. That's exactly what they're gonna say, the rats.   

And Elaine is thinking: maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy.   

And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their ....   

"Roger," Elaine says aloud.

"What?" says Roger, startled.

"Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have ...I feel so ..." (She breaks down, sobbing.)

"What?" says Roger.

"I'm such a fool," Elaine sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse."

"There's no horse?" says Roger.

"You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Elaine says.

"No!" says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer.

"It's just that... It's that I...I need some time," Elaine says.

(There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he thinks might work.) "Yes," he says.   

(Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.) "Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?" she says.   

"What way?" says Roger.

"That way about time," says Elaine.

"Oh," says Roger. "Yes."

(Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last she speaks.) "Thank you, Roger," she says.   

"Thank you," says Roger.

Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn.   

Whereas when Roger gets back to his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a tennis match between two Czechs he never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger.)

The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours.   In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification. They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either.   

Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown and say: "Norm, did Elaine ever own a horse?"      

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:22 PM

I am so glad I started this thread - it has developed into such an interesting discussion, and clearly something that a lot of people here want to talk about and have some very thought-provoking things to say. Thank you, all!

To get the specific situation out of the way, that prompted me to write in the first place: 'Guest' of 01.40 PM: I am sure you are right that when each of the people concerned comes from a different cultural background, the issue of different expectations in behaviour and intentions, and the difficulties in communicating them clearly, can be heightened markedly. I don't know what your therapist would make of this, Little Hawk, but all my life, whether single or married, I have been a target for highly persuasive exotic foreign men :) They home in on me in the most unlikely places and situations.

From reading everyone's comments, and from my own brief experiences so far, entering into new relationships later in life presents rather different difficulties from the ones we encountered as teens and twentysomethings. I agree with you, Freda, when you said: "People become more of themselves, more uniquely different, as we move through the decades." It reminded me of a quote I once read, in the same vein: "As you get older, you remain exactly the same, only more so." I have also found that in growing older, and having spent some years on my own now, I know that happiness isn't "out there" somewhere, it is only to be found within myself, as you said, Little Hawk. Having this inner strength and confidence is going to inform the choices that an older person makes about relationships and the speed and direction they take.

There have been some very varied reactions to my saying: "I think it's wise for people to know each other for at least 6 months before they go to bed together." I wasn't setting a rule, I just said it was wise. I certainly wouldn't want to just hold hands for a whole six months, either ;) The key factor here for me is an increasing trust, which just cannot happen overnight, between people; body, mind, spirit being revealed and offered in parallel, gradual, developing stages.

I think it is very sad when people miss out on exploring and understanding the spiritual aspects and symbolism of sexuality. Without it, everything in a relationship is liable to be out of sync and prone to confusion, misunderstanding and hurt emotions. I know that from mistakes I made when I was younger. Here is a quote from a book, 'Single Again' by Thomas Jones:

"One person, the man, physically enters the body of the other, the woman. There is in that entrance a symbol of what ought to be happening in his spirit at the same time. He ought to be saying to her, 'I am willing to enter into your life, into your whole life. I want to come into who and what you are. I want to discover you in every way. I want to know you. As I discover you, I will love you and accept you. I will not reject what I find that you are. I will care for you, understand you, and always honor you. I will dwell lovingly within your life.' On the other side of the illustration, think of the symbolism of the woman's act of intercourse. She actually opens her body to the man's entrance. She ought to be saying, 'My spirit is also open to you. You may come into my whole life. I will keep no secrets from you. What I truly am I will permit you to know, to touch. I will trust you wholly with my inner self. You are welcome here inside my life."

I find those words beautiful. I certainly couldn't say them verbally to anyone having known them for a matter of weeks, so I would not want to "say" them with my body to anyone in that space of time, either.

I will be interested to see what people here think of that quote. Thank you all again for such interesting comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

I've always liked it when someone writes that a woman takes a man into her body, rather than the man enters the woman, who is open. It makes the woman's role more active, less passive. I believe that both phrases are correct, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:39 PM

That's a beautiful quotation, B&B. Philosophically, it says it all. But I've gotta tell you that NOTHING philosophical would be in my mind at that moment and I sincerely doubt I am particularly exceptional in this regard. . . . But it is beautiful.

I might ponder it briefly while playing raquetball;-}

(Thanks, Amos! That really does sum it up rather well for the most part. But I will admit that I do analize things a lot more than Roger.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:38 PM

Allan, I agree with you - nothing philosophical would be in my mind at that moment, either ! What that quote is saying is what is happening (invisibly) in the (invisible) soul/spirit aspect of a person's make-up as they make love. This is not on a thought level.

Here are a couple more quotes from that book, which will hopefully clarify this:

"People who decide to have sexual intercourse without also having mutual commitment to whole-life union are actually choosing against their own wholeness by dividing their sexuality into separate parts. They are doing one thing with their bodies and another with their spirits. Such a decision is a choice to bring pain upon themselves. You just can't separate sexuality into parts without creating pain. When people seek to enjoy the physical pleasures of sexuality without the spiritual pleasures, they will find in time that the physical sexual experience becomes empty and hurtful."

"Perhaps on the surface we can act as if we do not need the deeper, inner meaning of sexual intercourse. But it is not very easy to just have intercourse with our bodies. Somehow our bodies seem to be inextricably connected to our souls. And our souls demand interpretation of our actions in meaningful terms.

Our natures give us a message about our sexuality. It is both spirit and body, and we cannot separate the two. We cannot take our bodies to bed with someone and park our souls outside in the car to wait. We may try to do so, but in the end it is impossible.

I remember counselling a married woman who had had an affair. She was very cold and unemotional as she told me about it. It had not meant anything at all, she declared. She had been silly to do such a thing. And after all, she said, 'All I gave him was my body.'

In the conversation that followed, I pressed her to back up that statement. Eventually, she was in tears as she admitted that her soul had been very much involved during intercourse with the man. She had hoped that he would love her, wanted him to care about her in a lasting way, wanted him to share her heart. It had proved to be a relationship without a future, and her heart was filled with disappointment, guilt, and shame. How could she feel those things if all she had given him was her body ? In reality she had given him more. It is impossible to have intercourse and bring only one's body to bed. It is impossible because of the way we are made."

* * *
On a different note - I loved your story, Amos. So true, so true !

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:54 PM

I had a woman friend who was much younger than I, and one day she asked me if I had any idea why she couldn't maintain a relationship. (She went from one asshole to another). I gave her this advice. "Stop screwing around with boys and find yourself a man." Shortly afterwards, she took up with a guy 10 years her senior, and they have been married for about 20 years now.

Another piece of advice I have given my three daughters and numerous youmg women: If you are attracted to a man, make sure he doesn't try to make you dress as he wants you to.Find out as soon as you can how he feels about cats. If he hates cats, run like a bandit, he is a control freak. Watch how he treats his mother and waitresses, because that is how he will treat you sooner or later.

The number one thing to look for in a man is respect. If he does not respect you before you get involved, he sure as hell wont respect you afterwards.

People make two major mistakes in relationships'
1. A woman sees the flaws in her prospective mate, but, she deludes herself into thinking, "Thats ok, I'll change him." BS!!

A man sees this lovely young firm body and thinks she will always be young and pretty. BS!! Time, gravity and children will have something to say about that.

Now, when the passion cools off, which it must, and the wrinkles start to show, you better have something besides horny to fall back on. And, the only firm foundation is Respect and genuine friendship.

That will be $100.00 please.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:03 PM

Sorry, B&B but what the author says is equivalent to what one well known TV sex therapist says about orgasm. She says it is completely impossible without fantasy. I bristle every time I hear it. She is so utterly wrong. I know that it is so very possible to become so lost in the moment that fantasy of any sort is neither possible nor necessary.

I think the same sort of thing is true with regard to separating the spiritual connection from sexual intercourse. Absolutely wild orgasms are totally possible without that connection. All both parties really need is a very strong and mutual desire to pleasure one another. Connection on any other level is not vitally necessary.

In the immortal words of Tina Turner, "What's Love Got To Do With It?" Well, actually there is a connection. Read on.

On the other hand, I would be first in line to agree that having that spiritual connection adds immeasurably to the experience. I just think the author has the whole concept turned inside out and sideways - as we are fond of saying in the south.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:09 PM

Kendall ... Being a married man, I did NOT feel it was appropriate that I comment on this thread. However, you just said something that I have to AGREE with ... "Find out how he feels about cats." You are so very right. Whoever the "HE" or "SHE" is, if they are not comfortable with cats ... LOOK OUT! That can be a very telling clue! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:16 PM

MAG tells me it (the story about Elaine and Roger, not sexual intercourse) originated with Dave Barry, which I never knew. If so, due credit be given -- he's brilliant.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM

To all you women out there: I like cats.






Delicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:13 PM

Well gol danged! What we got going here? The Mudcat Dating game, 'er what? Don't answer that...

Hmmmmm? Relationships between "mature" folks? Now here is a real crap shoot 'cause by the time that folks decide they are mature adults they are also gettin' purdy danged stuck in their "mature adult" ways. I mean, ahhhh, they is some purdy danged quirky folks!....

This ain't 'bout sex 'er nuthin' 'cause by this "mature adult" stage of our lives we know, or should know, lots 'bout that subject...

But quirks? Whew... I mean just look around this joint. You see any normal people? I rest my case...

But it ain't totally hopeless if ya got two folks whose love can get them to do what younger folks do so easily: listen and compromise! That's the secret. And make a deal from the outset that if there is any one issue that either of you feel "balls to the wall" about that the other will "capitulate", unless of course, it's like wanting to have sex with their X, with you watching... That's out of the question....

But..... listen and compromise....

The rest will take care of itself.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 12:37 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:26 AM

Allan, from your post I can see that you haven't understood what the writer of that book is saying. He is saying that there isn't any choice in the matter. A person can tell themselves all they like that their soul/spirit is not, and was not, involved in lovemaking, or that "connection on any other level is not vitally necessary." Yes, they can have the 'absolutely wild orgasms' and all the rest of it. But, as long as we are living, breathing, human beings, the soul is connected to the body just as much the foot is connected to the ankle bone (an' all dem other bones).

The connection is vitally necessary in the very real sense of the word vital ! If the 'you' part of you ain't connected to the 'body' part of you, you are not a live body any more, just that bunch of dry bones !

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:56 AM

Amos(&Dave Barry)-LOL!!!! Also, Kendall, I loved your comments as well. This has turned into a really interesting and revealing thread, hasn't it? Deckman, you KNOW I agree with you about cats!

What I kept going back to while reading these postings is how B&B was approaching this thing, and from what I can tell, it is from a thoughtful and emotional place. You want, I think, to wait for the person who fits. I say good luck to you, and he may indeed be out there right around your next corner.

As a woman, (it does make a difference, because both genders have been manipulated, some say from pre-birth, to adjust to a range of steriotypes) who was cursed/blessed with a modicum of good looks, I was aware from an early age just how much that factor was going to play into my life...and what choices I'd have to make as to how much I wanted to manipulate it. For a long while I didn't. I was the perverbial "tomboy", climbing trees, kicking boys, and generally trying to steer clear of the "let's play house" set. When I found out that on occasion I was getting miffed at some guy because he was responding to me as "one of the guys", I would whip off my glasses, comb my hair, and put on a dress. The reaction was so intense in it's difference that I knew I was playing with some primal fire.

Almost before we have a name for it, we are having to deal with our sexuality. It's now being literally crammed down our throats via the media as well. Children as young as 8 and 9 are being targeted for products to sexually allure. Of course, some can argue that this isn't new, and there are many cultures that begin arranging marriages at an even earlier age. But that's something else, though yes, culture can play a large part in what happens between us as we grow into the dating/mating game.

I can't remember feeling prepared for any of this. By the time a "talk" might have occurred between my mother and I, it was waaay past what I'd already received of my own sexual education via discussions in the playground and library books feverently read behind the back shelves.I knew the "facts", but honey, NO ONE could have prepared me for the reality!

Throughout my life I've had relationships both sexual and non. The sexual ones have always been more complex. Even in the days before AIDs and STDs were as rampant as they are now, women had to deal with one primary difference from our male cohorts...we could get pregnant. I knew that fact scared the bejiggers out of me, and yet still, time and again, I was face to face-or body to body, with some guy who was ready to ride the waves in a hot second, with little understanding of how easy it was for us woman to be washed under quickly only to come up to the surface preggers.

Does that change everything for most of us? I'd say it does, even with the best "protection" available. We've have to think about this every time, and men just don't.

Aside from the ramifications of what the sexual act can produce in the way of an embryo, there are also the emotional pressures of just saying "no". It's HARD to do that, especially since we do think about that word as a rejection..that's how it feels to us when it comes our way...how could it not feel the same to someone we like and usually go home and fantasise about? So again (just like in Amos' scenario) we are always playing out what the reactions will be, and for a lot of us, it's just easier to give in to the moment of persistance coming our way. That we feel badly about it afterwards is something we often learn to subjegate, though it does affect our psychies. How could it not? Someone was INSIDE of us!

The intimacy of the sexual act is something implied for a lot of women. Some have the ability to have "sex friends"...in all honesty, I've gone that route more than once. It does little more than scratch the itch, and then one is left with knowing that we've shared our bodies without our souls, as you pointed out, B&B. It's not very satisfying, and in the end, I think it was a poor compromise every time.

The problem is...waiting for what we want. I married my complete opposite, and we rubbed and rubbed ourselves raw (in the LH sense) and actually came closer to being who we felt more comfortable being, both for ourselves and each other. It was very very difficult, and in the end, we loved each other a lot more, and STILL couldn't live together.

Funny thing is that all the respect and love and trust that we can invest into a relationship will not confirm it's longevity. TIMING is also an enormously important factor. So on top of all the other trials and tribs we go through to get there, if we don't both hit at the right time we may still deflect away from each other! OY!

So in the end, well, as I said in an earlier posting, you can keep looking (or non-look in a freda underhill/Buddhist kind of way), which has it's great merits) or "Marry Yourself" which sounds hokier than I mean it to. But I do think that without the latter, you won't be nearly as prepared for the time, whenever that time might come-for the former..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:56 AM

Precisely, Ellenpoly ! You have understood exactly what I have been saying and what the author I quoted was saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

Dear me, but these therapists and "self-help" book writers have a lot to answer for. If you want to see the difference between the sexes personified go to any bookshop and count the shelves of books with advice for women and note the number of females who browse them. Then look for the male equivilant!
Then go and write your own. It's a licence to print money as Kendall so astutely observed.
My advice is, throw away the books and LIVE LIFE! What do any of these gurus know that you don't know yourself. It's just another industry angled to get the money from your pockets.
I think it was Stan Rogers who said that living life should be like eating a melon over a sink. Not a pretty metaphor but one I ascribe to wholeheartedly. Forget the rules, bite life, and let the juice run where it may.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:24 AM

It's generally true that young men don't give much thought to the consequences of sex. Pregnancy is only a vague possibility, and, as Ted Kennedy said to Mary Jo, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it."

There is an old Maine proverb that covers this, it says, "A stiff prick has no concience."

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:26 AM

you said it, Kendall. I was thinking something like that when I read harvey's post, about let the juice run where it may..

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

I didn't miss the point at all. What I am saying is that it is a lame one that is poorly substantiated. "You just can't separate sexuality into parts without creating pain." That's like saying you cannot possibly enjoy a great meal without contemplating the physiological effects of the nutrients you absorb from it. Yes, you can. You can also enjoy sex very much without any regard whatsoever for whether or for how it might effect your soul, before, after or during. The pain the author refers to exsists only if it is invited. The author appears to believe that some level of guilt is forever looming in the background. I do not adhere to that concept at all.

"Perhaps on the surface we can act as if we do not need the deeper, inner meaning of sexual intercourse." Well, yes and no. Yes we can completely enjoy a sexual connection with another without further consequence. I do believe that there is recreational sex that is simple and pure unto itself. However, do we, in the long run, "need the deeper, inner meaning"? Yes. I think most of us eventually arrive at a time in our lives when we are ready to accept that aspect and its connection to true love.

Yes, I do think it was entirely possible for the woman in the example to have been able to bring only her body to bed. At it turned out, she was not there just for recreational purposes; but I maintain that she could have been. The author chose the example of an emotionally entangled woman just to bolster his weak point.

I know what I have said here might sound as though I, personally, am a complete gadabout and advocate the same. This is far from the actuality. I am merely arguing philosophies here.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:06 AM

Self help books leave me cold. They are the authors interpretation of the right way to do things. Does anybody REALLY think that means it is the right way for everybody. They appeal to people who are at a low ebb and as someone pointed out above, are a licence to print money.

How many of the people who have bought that book are in happy fulfilling relationships? I'd say not many. How many of those people in happy fulfilling relationships have arrived at them because of that book. I'd say again not many.Just because you have found an author in tune with your way of viewing things does not mean they are right for everyone, just you and the author.

We all have different sex drives, hormonal levels and ideas of what is sexually satisfying. One of the reasons for so many relationship breakdowns. There is no definitive answer. Do what feels right for you. Your six months is someone elses six days. You are both right.

Shred the book and rely on your intuition.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:27 AM

Well-put, Allan, I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Mr Red in disguise
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:34 AM

Well this thread proves what we know from pop songs and a huge body of folk songs.

He, she, requited, unrequited but it is mostly - SEX - that sells.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

B&B, I've already said a whole lot more than I meant to in the beginning, and if I could have written this one as a personal message, I'd have preferred it, but since I can't so be it.

The man I married back in the early 70s was Greek, and between meeting and marrying, all of 5 months elapsed. I had no intention of EVER getting married to anyone, and only agreed to marry him to help him get a Visa so he could go to the States and work if he so wished.

I had no expectations going into the marriage that it would last, and perhaps that turned out to be beneficial, as I found I was continally being surprised at what we had in common and how many new ideas we had to share with each other. Every day was a surprise, and we stayed together for a decade.(The other side of the coin is that we were both mentally unstable as hell, and it's a miracle we both survived the experience..but that's another story.)

But the point I'd like to make here is, my being American and his being Greek became a really difficult hurdle at some time fairly early on. For all the exterior facets of this man being presented to me as an enlightened Citizen of the World, I found you only had to scratch the surface to find the Greek, who is educated from infancy to look in the mirror and see a little Alexander the Great staring back out at him. The statistics of marital break-ups between Greek Men and American Women is something in the 90 percentile range, where the other way around (Greek Women and American Men) is almost nil.

If you have even an inkling that you don't know this man well enough, take that as a sign to go slowly and make sure he is what he seems to be. I was shocked to find that my "wasband" expected me to be the traditional cook, cleaner, housekeeper, and mother...and he was shocked to find that wasn't going to be the case, as I couldn't at that time in my life, tell a frying pan from a spatula and didn't especially want to (nor did I want children which was almost inconceivable to most Greeks). There was intense pressure from his family for me to conform to type as well, and if in the end we hadn't hashed it out as friends (something that is as foreign a notion to many Greek men as the notion that perhaps Greece did NOT give "the light of civisation to the world") the relationship would have ended within weeks. In our case, we decided to explore our strengths and weaknesses (HAH! TRY to get a Greek man to ADMIT to any weaknesses!) and we managed to come through the fires in most interesting ways.(It turned out he was an AMAZING COOK and loved doing it as well, thank the gods) and as I said in a previous posting we worked together 24 hours a day well and fruitfully for many years.

BUT please let me emphasise this, there can be EXTREME differences between cultures that can absolutely make a difference on whether a relationship will thrive or not. I do find that taking the man out of his country is often a way to break through some of the most entrenched cultural ties, but in the end, time will be what tells you the truth here...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

OK, how many times I gotta tell the ladies on this thread that "I LIKE CATS."

To who ever said that gals should see how men like cats as a barometer of their sensitivity and trustworthiness and crap like that: IT DON'T WORK. I have been trying it for three days. I saw this number in Safeway; walked over; said, "Hi. I'm Brucie. I LIKE CATS." She called the manager. Lousy pickup line.

freda: LMAO, good one.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

i like mudcats..

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Middle Aged Man
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:41 AM

Sorry I misread what was happening--I really can't speak to any of the other issues, but I do know a ittle bit about the "Is he really interested in ME - human beings could all win Oscars as actors - or, as a foreigner working in this country, does he see me and my address as a way to stay here ?" business .

A good friend in our age bracket, with a good career, house, and a long term failed marriage in her past had just about settled on what she called "The sadder but wiser lifestyle" when she met and was swept off her feet by a charming and romantic foreigner.

He seemed perfect--he loved her, doted on her, and, on top of that, he loved all of her friends(that should have been the tipoff right there!)--after the wedding, things changed drastically. He spent a lot of time away--he ignored her when they were together, except when he wanted something, when he became dictatorial, and, ultimately, he became abusive--she filed for divorce, criminal charges, and made statement to INS as well, not surprisingly, he disappeared--

Not that it always happens this way--but better to be safe than sorry--

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:42 PM

We have a saying in Mexico: "La pija parada no respecta nada."

It's the proverb heard around the world.

Personally, I'm with Diana Ross: "You can't hurry love. No, you just have to wait." Can't make it happen no matter what rules you may devise. I doubt that any rules systems will weed out the false positives, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:20 PM

You know...the advice some one mentioned earlier about not putting out can make a man more interested is very very true...Yesterday, I became acquainted with a new male friend...and he became rather attached to my leg...my leg refused to give in to his animal desires and gently pushed him off...my friend became more insistant...but my leg was gently firm in its refusal. My young male friend then has been following me...or rather my leg ever since....even into the bathroom and into bed....He politely respected the wishes of my leg and did not attempt to make a pass on it...and he and my leg had a pleasant night together.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

Allan, I do understand that you are not a 'complete gadabout' (nice expression !) and are arguing philosophies here. So am I. I still think you have yet to understand what is being said here. If you re-read the 8th and 9th paragraphs of Ellenpoly's post of 05.06 AM, she has set out, very clearly, some of the emotional/psychological consequences. Like it or not, deny it or not, 'recreational sex' DOES have its consequences. Like it or not, deny it or not, what we do with and to our bodies DOES affect our psyche/soul/spirit (call it what you will), and vice versa.

As for the vast array of 'self-help' books on the market, I am inclined to agree with you Harvey, and Guest of 09.06 AM. This particular book is part of teaching material for a post-divorce discussion programme. Nobody is making money out of it.

In all areas of life, and throughout life, we make mistakes. In the aftermath, we have the choice of making changes, possibly difficult, painful changes to the way we act, react, view the world.... or of continuing on the same old way. The latter may appear to be the easier option, but it comes with a cost. The next time that particular situation arises unless we have been willing to change, we make the same mistake again...and again...

Sometimes, when someone reacts very energetically against a viewpoint, it may be because they have recognized the inherent truth in it. That is why discussions like this are so good and so useful.

Ellenpoly & 'Middle-aged Man' - thank you both very much for your posts. Yes - your thoughts on this are the same as mine.

Brucie: You LIKE CATS? I thought so. I always had you down as a sensitive and trustworthy and lovely fella. You just went to the wrong girl in the wrong supermarket, that's all. Hope this makes you feel a bit better :)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:01 PM

Thanks, B&B. It appears we may never agree on this; but I do understand how what this author said as was further explained by Ellenpoly has colored your thinking. For some reason I am reminded of the verse from the song, "I'm A Drifter". I suppose it might partially illustrate your point of view.

I've made love in your city
To the poor and the pretty
Thought I was clever and smart
But I've ended up lonely
With nothing but only
A song and a half of a heart.


Maybe I'll sing it for you sometime.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:11 PM

I'm back. Got busy for awhile there.

I should mention that I also like cats, and always have liked them. Dogs? I like some of them and don't like others. Some dogs are too aggressive for my taste, and some are too pushy. It depends on the individual. Most cats I find are quite likeable, though there is the odd paranoid sorehead among cats.

I had something I tried to post yesterday and it wouldn't go through. I think I saved it in the buffer. Let's see...

Yes, there it is:


Sounds like you're a faster learner than many or even most people, Freda. Good for you. :-) I've observed many, many people who seem to be in the grip of a "lemming-like drive towards being with someone for the wrong reasons". This is because they don't want to change.

In my own case, I've noticed that the women I became seriously involved with seemed to be roughly in 2 categories:

1. Those I had a ton of really difficult issues to work out with...those involvements were all long, complex, and exceedingly painful at times...with their really great moments too.

2. Those I had not too many issues to work out with...those involvements were generally a lot shorter and less painful...also with their great moments.

But that's only me.

Of my parents (who have been together for their whole adult lives) I would say: they came together in order to drive each other up the wall, frustrate the hell out of each other for about 60 years, and be extremely co-dependent in a way that seems to work for them. Not my idea of paradise! :-)

I always sought relationships because I expected happiness from them, and I wanted to be "in love". That's a pretty common set of motivations, I think. I was looking for emotional security, companionship, affection, loyalty, all that kind of good stuff. Every relationship turned out to be a golden opportunity to face and deal with my own blind spots and weaknesses. I think that's what my therapist is talking about. Relationships allow you to exercise your character in a rigorous and challenging setting that is very demanding. They are not a trip to a vacation paradise free of stress. If you are up to changing and growing, you can do a lot with a relationship. If you just want others to change so you can feel good, you are in for a miserable time.

You know what real relationship is? It's loving service. Loving is not about receiving, it's about rendering service...while NOT surrendering your own personal sovereignty in the process. He who can serve another selflessly while still remaining free and sovereign within himself has really made something of his life.

I figure I'm about halfway there at this point.

And YES...to respect someone is everything. I never got involved with someone I didn't respect at the time.

And to Guest: The only experience I have ever had around the after sex/respect issue with women was this - I respected them even MORE after sex than I did before. Without exception. And I am a North American male. I guess I wasn't brought up in the macho value system you are speaking of, although it certainly is out there, no question of that. My parents didn't really teach me much of anything about sex, nor did my schoolmates. I got my ideas about it primarily from books depicting romantic stories about "true love". I never had one negative feeling about it in any way, nor about the people I had it with. It was pure and beautiful. It was practically the only major thing in my young life that did not get compromised or damaged in some way by someone while I was growing up.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

I find cats extremely annoying. I would never have one in the house. I of course would not want a man who was abusive to animals, but he sure as heck would not have to even tolerate cats. And no way would I share a bedroom, much less a bed with any animals..and would not take on a man who expected as much.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

That's interesting, Mary, cos I was just talking to a male friend yesterday who stated firmly that if any woman couldn't put up with (and like) his dog and other pets there was no way he'd want to get into a relationship with her. Evidently, you and he are not going to get together... :-)

I have this obscure feeling that people who tend to be political conservatives also tend not to like cats. I wonder if I'm right about that? Naw...it's probably a gross generalization.

In my own case, I like pets and animals generally, but have decided that I feel a lot freer (to come and go, and so on) living without them, so I'm much less inclined to have pets now than when I was younger. Ideally speaking, I would prefer not to have pets at this point. There are 2 dogs here, but they're not really my dogs, so it's not my problem to take care of them. They are amusing company, though. Weiner dogs seldom fail to be amusing, I find.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: mg
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:57 PM

I could put up with animals. I could even pet them now and then. I like lambs and furry rabbits but still don't want them in the house. I could tolerate, not enjoy but tolerate, certain dogs in the house proper, but not in the bedroom. I think animals in general belong outside in proper animal shelters. I think people belong outside more too. The bottom line has to do with litter boxes etc.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

I feel kind of the same way, Mary, but not as strongly as you, I guess...

I prefer outside dogs to inside dogs, but it depends on the situation. Litter boxes are a dumb idea, unless you live in a highrise. Cats can quite easily be trained to ask to go outside when they are young. All ours were.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:10 PM

Amergin: LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:32 PM

I'm with Mary to a certain extent. The one thing that I can't stand about cats is their need to walk all over the counter or dining room table after scratching around in their filthy litter box. I've had cats but they learned to stay the hell off the table and counter at an early age.
I have a big Labrador retriever that I am very fond of, but he does not ever go into my bedroom. He has his own bed in the living room. I don't get into his bed, he doesn't get into mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:01 AM

I LOVE that this thread has veered off onto animals!!! I think it's absolutely perfect!

I grew to love cats because my brother kept bringing them home. (What I didn't find out until much much later is that he also tortured them, which is why they quickly disappeared...and I know I know, it's a sure sign of the beginnings of a serial killer, but instead, he became a folk singer, and that straightened him right out). The cats were always black and the first was named Javert (after the obsessed policeman in Les Miserables) and the second was named Miro (after the Spanish Painter). They were both as neurotic as he was, but between the cats and my brother, it was always easier to understand and forgive them.

When next I had cats, it was in Greece, where the idea of having a pet cat is just considered ridiculous, bordering on abhorrent. Cats are for torturing, kicking, throwing food at from outside restaurants, etc,...not to have in the home. So I immediatly found and brought home two kittens who were brothers, named them Mr Vouros and Mr Zisis, after two characters in my "Learn Greek in Six Months" book, and watched my "wasband" screw his face up in all kinds of interesting contortions. Then, within 10 minutes, I SWEAR, I watched that man become MUSH. He fell completely in love with those critters, and we went on throughout the years, to accumulate about 15 more.

They lived around the guesthouse we ran, though not inside anywhere but our side of the house. Most established their territories around the peripherie,having meals with us, and knowing that if they became ill, they could always crawl back home and be administered to.

Why did we have so many? Not our idea entirely...but a very pregnant Mama cat showed up on our doorstep one day and made the place her own. Who were we to argue, especially when the first six that popped out bore striking resemblances to our Messrs V and Z? (By the way, the idea of getting a cat Fixed was utterly hilareous to the Greeks. They would miss the opportunity to drown the buggers. There were no vets on our island until a bunch of us foreigners actually paid to have a Brit come over and help us out in exchange for food and lodging.)

So we became an extended cat family...and even managed to add a black labrador to the mix when he found him being tortured by yet another fun loving Greek.

Do I have a point to any of this? Not really, except that sometimes animals find you. Like some people, animals can often figure out who is safe, who isn't going to purposely hurt them, Who will feed them, and help them, and when they do, their loyalty is pretty encompassing.

After I left Greece I no longer was in a position to have animals of my own, and became everyone's favorite pet sitter. They knew with me, they'd get a loyal loving friend, which I've always tried to be to my human pals as well...Truth as I see it these days, spreading love to the furry is not a lot different, and often the payoff is even greater....!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:04 AM

going back to the original question - this is all very theoretical. in all truth i am very out of touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:27 AM

i did group therapy for a few years, and know how people can present a particular image, to others and to themselves.

people have been very open in this thread, and it has felt sincere and truthful.

we live in different continents & will probably never meet. but its interesting to talk about these things in a close yet distant way. the only thing i can compare it to is talking with a gay friend - there is mutual affection, but an understanding of no involvement. it creates a good environment for empathy & insight.

for me, i am wondering whether i will ever have a relationship again. i have developed the beginning of some physical limitations connected with ageing. I have a close relationship with my children and am becoming more "mumsy" as i get older.

to open up to someone is to take a risk. and i think inside there are a lot of feelings that want to express themselves, and a cocktail of hormones. it is so hard to see through those things to know what is really happening, plus the one step forward two steps back dance where people check each other out. to open up, & go exploring is also to place yourself at risk of feeling unrequited feelings of longing.

and it can be a real fantasy which can dissolve in a moment when the illusion bursts.

and as i said i appreciate very much other people's thoughts and openness.   

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:04 AM

I'm sorry I went off on a kitty jag, freda. I so agree with all that you just wrote..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM

freda, you gotta get out on the limb; that's where the fruit is.

Anyone who mis treats animals is my sworn enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:23 AM

testing

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

sorry the one above was me as I was testing that I had just removed my cookie.

I am reading this with interest being a relatively mature person ( although others might disagree) and having been single now for 18 months or so after a long , long relationship. I find that I am about ready to start again and feel a mixture of confidence and paranoia.   I have recently lost a lot of weight and am totally unsure of how people relate to me. Sometimes I feel that I am moving from fat to curvy and sometimes I think I am kidding myself.

But to get back to the point.   I think how you develop a relationship depends very much on a complex set of circumstances. I currently have my eye on someone that I have known for a few months and may see in a group every couple of weeks (totally wrong for me - much older and going through a complicated divorce, but who can dictate attraction).   Now because I know him resonably well I could imagine going quite quickly to a physical relationship if anything happened but if I met someone completely new I think it would take a much longer period of time.   

This is of course pure speculation and casts very little light on the dicussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:51 AM

My God, Ellenpoly, what a story! I was tremendously reminded of Gerald Durrell's marvelous book "My Family and Other Animals" which is the story of his growing up with his weird family on the Greek island of Corfu. The stuff he said about the situation of cats in Greece sounded very similar to your story. The Durrells, of course, were eccentric English people, and did things THEIR way...which was anything but the way the Greeks did things.

This whole thing doesn't speak very well for the Greek soul, if you ask me. If I reincarnate as a cat I will try not to land there!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Hello, Guest of 07.41 AM. I think what you have to say DOES cast light on the discussion, and I'm glad you have joined in. I agree with you, I think there's no doubt that getting to know someone gradually in a group situation is by far the better way, and is to be handled differently from the out-of-the-blue surprise encounters when you are not looking.

What I am going to say now could also be said on the "What I like about Mudcat" thread: As Freda and others have said, I am so glad that this is a place where we can all feel safe enough to be as frank and open as people have been on this thread, and contributing such a wide variety of thoughtful insights (as on so many other threads on Mudcat) where we can think around a subject, and clarify our thoughts, on something that clearly a lot of people here want to have the opportunity to talk about.

There have been some discussions recently about whether or not to continue with the facility for people to post as "Guest", because of a troublesome few. Without the possibility for regular Mudcat members to post anonymously as Guests, a thread like this might no longer exist, or would be very different in content, and I think that would be a great pity. If I had had to put my name to this thread, I would never have started it. So, thank you Mudcat, and thank you Mudcat friends, for letting me be shy on this occasion. (I'm not, usually !)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:07 AM

Guest(s), you can always be sure your posting will be as a guest rather than your Mudcat name. "Membership Has Its Rewards" appears near the top of the main Forum page and your Mudcat name will not be displayed next to the "From:" above the Reply to Thread box.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Guest from 7.41am
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM

Allan - I know, but sometimes you have to be absolutely sure about these things. I'm not about to cause any more complications. I have enough confusing emotions without letting too many people know what I'm thinking.
I'm glad if I managed to add to the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:40 AM

I agree, B&B, that I have opened myself up on mudcat in such a short time it amazes me. How on earth can it be possible to feel safe with a bunch of virtual strangers is beyond me, and I completely agree that using the Guest alias is well worth having for those times when you so want to open up and need just that extra feeling of personal and emotional safety to do so.
I can't imagine what it would have been like to have been face to face with you all while trying to say what I was able to write!
LH-yup, Greece is one of those "nice place to visit if you don't look too closely and don't stay too long" places. I did both, unfortunately, but hey, it's all grist for the Cosmic Mill, eh?..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:03 PM

re greece..

i have a greek son in law. greek australian that is. the greeks in australia are very conservative, generally.

being pretty boho, i was nervous about meeting the in laws, and about my future son in law, and the future implications for my oldest daughter.

five years later i can only say that my son in law is now my son, his parents are now my close friends, and i couldn't have asked for a better family for my daughter, and a better father for my grandchild.

my daughter will be having a baby in september.

meanwhile, i am also still single.

i now am beginning to feel closeness and affection for some catters in here, and interest and respect.

yes, bring on the technology for instant travel through time and space.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:18 PM

I doubt I'll ever feel an emotional closeness with anyone again. But I have felt liked by a few 'catters, and that's pretty darn good for me. Not a 'sex' thing, but rather a sense of friendship that is neat. This site seems to do that because people to greater or lesser degrees share their souls, and it's hard not to like people who do that. So I feel a sense of 'liking' back. (Some people just dislike everyone, but they do not proliferate on the 'cat.) Stray thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,cautious
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 08:04 AM

Dear sympathy column

out in the other world, i am cautious about personal involvements. very cautious.

i have met someone here that i have been flirting with heavily in the chat room - he has a v funny sense of humour which hooked me right in. how did this happen and what have i gotten myself into?

will he still respect me in the morning?

signed

outwardly restrained
virtually uncontrollable

ps put this on the what don't i like about mudcat thread, but they're all obsessed about someone called william shatner there. so thought i'd try again here

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 10:16 AM

Dear Cautious,

It happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,me
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:35 PM

I reserve the right to hop into the sack right away if I want.
I reserve the right not to.
I don't care if I appear out of touch.
I am not necessarily waiting for "the one".
If he came along I wouldn't recognise him because I had slept with him sooner or later.
Do as YOU want.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:58 PM

Dear Cautious:

Do not take William Shatner's name in vain. He is--rightfully so--an icon.

Flirting in a chat room is serious. Get a grip.

Your friend, Zelda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: open mike
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:11 PM

define this: " being pretty boho "
certainly not the same as hobo?
has it something to do with "bohemian"
as in beatnik?
if so why not "bohe"?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:18 PM

hi open mike!

re boho

this is an aussie term - we put "o" on the end of everything eg

muso - musician

boho - bohemian

ammo - ammunition

Johnno - what we call anyone whose surname is johnson


freda


ps cautious - no he won't

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:47 AM

What's wrong with a bit of harmless flirting?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Deckman
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM

To: Guest, Bothered and Bewildered. I've just now had time to read all these postings. You've started a very good thread that obviously resonated with many people and caught many interesting postings.

As I read through the thread, I realised that it could have been ME that started this thread, although I would have had to do so about ten years ago. I'll explain: I was married to my first wife for 26 years. She was, and still, a nice person. We raised three great children. But I chose to end that marriage for ceratin reasons.No, there were NOT ant boyfriends or girlfriends.

I spent the next ten years single. What an experience! Shortly after the 'word got out,' I was inundated by women. I had just gone through a successful divorce, I was working two jobs, and the LAST thing I wanted was a "relationship."

I was absolutly AMAZED at the attention I got. This was NOT the dating behavior I knew. In fact, it was the behavior I cautioned my children about.

I found, time and time again, that I would have to get pretty rough in telling some women to cool it. And I did. This was during the time that the movie "Fatal Attraction" came out. I don't go to movies, so I've never seen it, but I had friends cautioning me about this story line. And indeed, I was on the receiving end of attention from some people that would not take "NO" easily.

And today I am VERY glad that I did as I did. Or perhaps I should say that I did NOT do as some would have wished. "Bride Judy" and I have been married almost nine years now. I/we are very pleased about.

My whole point in this rather rambling story is tell you that I think you are very RIGHT in doing excatly what you are comfortable with, and NO MORE.

You've received some very good advice here, reading the many postings.I also want to disspell the stereotype that men are only/always after sex. That ain't necessarily true. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

Trust Bob to bust up a perfectly good stereotype!! Jeeze!! Now they're gonna want us to build furniture or sompn....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,from B&B's planet
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:41 PM

B&B, You're not as alone as you think. Relationship is about so much more than sex. The one who cares about you in the way that you are looking to care about him, will allow you all the room you need for readiness. Don't settle for less.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Hopeful
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:03 AM

Like Heartbroken, I've been there and done that......and for a while I thought my heart WAS broken. I consider now that I was "groomed" while I was extremely vulnerable after a long term relationship break up, which this person knew about as they had taken care to befriend me through an internet chatroom. Having dome some research I found that this person has a history of finding and using the vulnerable and have informed official channels. I consider myself lucky, I ended up having a complete breakdown. Being older and wiser I would never go down that road again. Make your friends in real time and in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:05 AM

Thanks Bob and Planet Guest, oh and Amos too, for what you have just said. (Must mention Amos, so he doesn't feel left out. Don't worry, Amos, I built my own furniture from 'handy flat packs' using the miniature screwdrivers I got inside a Christmas cracker. It may look like the Leaning Tower of Pisa and creek and wobble alarmingly when you sit on it, but it brings the risk and adventure of a Disney theme park into my own living room. I'm thinking of charging admission.)

You are right, Bob. Becoming single again after a long marriage is an eye-opener as to what is happening out there ! In the early days, post-divorce, you feel very vulnerable and confused - probably more so than you would want to admit to yourself at the time - and that is the time when people can easily make a lot of mistakes they may live to regret. I agree with you about the 'Fatal Attraction' fears, too. My recent persistant pursuer appears to have got the message now and has hopefully gone off to find someone else to pester. Fine as far as I am concerned, not such good news for them, unless they find his urgent attentions welcome.

I agree with you, too, Bob, that if you have children who are of 'dating' age and are still under your legal care, I think it's important that if you are warning them of the physical and emotional risks of casual sex, they don't see you doing that yourself, either.

I'm going to say a couple of things now that I'm sure some people here will disagree with, but I will be very interested to hear their point of view. This has been such a good discussion here. When I was first divorced, several years ago now, someone advised me not to even THINK of entering into a new relationship for at least five years. At the time, the thought of five years or more sounded ridiculous. I have now gone through that space of time (and no, I'm not ticking the days off the calendar to leap out there and "find" someone !) On the contrary, I can see how wise that advice was. It takes a long time to settle into the new person and the new life, to even know who you are.

Another thing that people may disagree with here: I would never, ever, start 'dating' (for want of a better word) someone until their divorce was totally final. Nor someone who had not yet ended their previous relationship. (If they treat her like that - what makes you think they won't treat you like that somewhere in the future ?) It seems there are a lot of predatory females about ! I have never understood the mentality of women who make a play for a man who is in a relationship (either married or not) and "work on" him, taking him away from his wife or girlfriend (or even be his "bit on the side"). Listen, ladies: If he can be coaxed away like that by YOU, what makes you think he won't be coaxed away from you some time by someone else ???

If all this means that I end up like the old woman in the song, in the garret with the parrot (and surrounded by my crazy flat-pack furniture) so be it. I am glad that Mudcat has an archive feature and the threads last forever. Many of you here are 'on my planet', and maybe I will be able to resurrect this thread in years to come, like some ancient long-lost manuscript, to report that I have met a fellow creature from my planet. Who knows ? But, for the meantime, I look forward to this discussion continuing, as it clearly affects a lot of us here.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:09 AM

'Hopeful' - I have just read your post. I am so sorry to hear your experience. I do hope life is much, much better for you now.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM

hi bothered & b

maybe i should have logged out like everone else, but i havent.

i have made a couple of very good friends in the chat room, and had some great conversations (and some rather manic laughter sessions). sometimes when there are a lot of people in ther it can be overwhelming, like a rush in the supermarket.

some men/women have a hunting instinct and are looking for prey. they are after meat. they enjoy the fight of hunting something that belongs to someone else, and the bloodletting. for me, feminism means loyalty to other women. and that means putting them first, not intruding on someone elses relationship.

the 5 years thing is good. I felt like a piece of cardboard when i emerged from a decade and a half of my last relationship. i have had to gradually get used to myself as a single entity again.

last year the one very kind and gentlemanly man that i was interested in let me know carefully that he was not interested (craack). that was my first try for four years.


best wishes
freda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:50 AM

Good advice. 5 years may sound like a long time, but it can take that long to heal. I know from personal experience. The first person to come along right after a serious breakup will be the next dumpee.
Never mess with a married person! he/she has already proven that he/she is untrustworthy. As was stated before, if he/she cheats on his/her spouse he/she will cheat on you.
Trust your head, your hormones will betray you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:22 AM

I think that, as intercourse is the closest you will ever get to another human being, there should be a corresponding emotional bond. The times that I have ignored that in the past I've ended up feeling used and dirty the next day so I'm staying with it.

I've been on my own for five years now - if a good relationship comes along that will be great but if not, I have a lot of good friends and a fulfilling life and dom't NEED someone to 'look after' me. I have friends who think they have that need and have compromised significantly for a relationship and are now unhappy.

I think we all need time to get to know ourselves and not be afraid of being alone. If we are comfortable with ourselves everything else will flow, be it a relationship or the single life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

I totally agree, Freda, Kendall and Jacqui. Maybe there are more of us on this particular planet than first appeared.

I've just re-read my post, and so as to clarify things, when I said "Listen, ladies", I wasn't addressing Mudcat ladies and implying any of you go around preying on other people's husbands/boyfriends - I was addressing the predatory women out there in the world who are doing that. Thought I'd better clarify that - I don't want to cast aspersions or cause offence !

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:25 AM

cast all the nasturtiums you want, B&B

we can handle em!

and you know, there is at least one very sociopathic, predatory woman in mudcat - that nurse ratched. if anyone finds her, she should be bound up and sent to Guantanamo Bay to catch mice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:30 AM

I guess I'm a typical man in that I would rather have sex with someone I love, but if that's not possible, I'll settle for someone I like, and RESPECT.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:43 AM

Agreed, Kendall. There is quite a difference between "a port in a storm" and a "snug harbor".

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:12 AM

i won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 10:24 AM

I'm glad that this thread is still going!

Oh, B&B, here's a story for you! When my love Walt was dying, a group of this friends got together and had a wonderful Hoot for him (organized by Deckman Bob, bless his name forever and ever). I was really looking forward to meeting all of Walt's friends from the folk community since he and I had been connected in another state with a different bunch of friends and cohorts.

When we arrived (his sister on one side of him, and me on the other), I almost IMMEDIATLY started picking up some very strange vibes. They were definitely "checking me out" kinda vibes, and I hadn't a clue why anyone in their right mind would consider it appropriate to be scoping out a woman on the arms of another man, ESPECIALLY a DYING MAN ferchrissake!!

It was explained to me afterwards in some great detail, that this was actually one of Walt's M.O.s, and that he had been famous for making time with any and every woman he could possibly "pull" (to use an interesting English expression). And that all these guys were doing was following a long established tradition of casing out the talent..and in two cases...calling me later to ask me out!!!

So, again, what is my point here? BE CAREFUL! The world is full of NUTS! Seriously, though, after Walt passed on, it was several years before I went out again, and even then, I realized I should have waited longer. I went back to some old bad habits and jumped into something that was not only a waste of my time, but if truth be known, of my dignity. Never again will I go down that road.

Yes, Kendall, friendly sex is fine, if you can honestly find a lady who is coming at it in the same mood and with the same lack of any other intentions, lucky you...but it's just not all that easy for a lot of us, even for us that have professed in the past that it is.

This is all so personal, but erring on the side of safety in the emotional sense is worth it, from my view...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM

"Many of you here are 'on my planet', "

If that's the case...you're in sadder shape than originally thought...you should check into the NYCFTTS.

Sincerely,

The Grand Ooglabug og Planet Glurg

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

Men and women really are "wired differently"

What is MOST important is as Ellen mentioned,
SINGING OFF THE SAME SHEET. When two people go into it with different agendas, that's when the trouble starts. I once lost a very nice lover because I could not tell her that I was in love with her. Lying does not suit me.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 02:43 PM

Sorry, that was me. I forgot I dumped my cookies.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:47 AM

I think that this is where the hardwiring can be different between the sexes. T ogive physically I need to give emotionally and if that isn't returned, or can't be sustained, then I get hurt so I've made the decision not to go down that road again. My last marriage left me with a severe lack of self esteem that I have only in the past year or so managed to overcome and I ain't going to go anywhere that might compromise that now!

Yes, there are times when I would really love to have a physical relationship but the urge, to date, has not overidden the emotional need and I hope it never will.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 09:04 AM

I totally agree, Jacqui. It is an awful feeling when you realize that someone has been with you (whether for a night, weeks, months, years) not for YOU, but for something they could get from you. This could be sex, status, any number of things. And the 'being with you' need not have been a relationship, it could be a friendship, a business partnership.

I'm not so sure it is such a straight division in attitude between men and women, though. There are some wonderfully giving men, and some horribly grasping women about, and vice versa. Rather than make a division between male and female attitudes, here, I wonder if it is more that some people (male and female) are more overridingly "givers" and some people are more overridingly "takers" in this life. This can be a generally inherent characteristic, or learned (and unlearned) by experience, and it 'colours' a person. I also think that each of us, every second of every day in all its minor occurrences, make choices between being a Giver or a Taker, moment by moment by moment. I find it quite a sobering exercise to look at events, at the end of a day, and see what choices I made in it between giving and taking.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 09:08 AM

make choices between being a Giver or a Taker, moment by moment by moment.

A wonderful and useful thought, GB&B. Thanks.

Old man used to say there were three kinds: makers, takers, and fakers.

Have always found that valuable asa preliminary sort, as well!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 10:46 AM

I enjoy giving. It may be the most important thing I can do with my life. If sex turns out to be a part of that, so be it. It is a gift, after all - a treasure, a pleasure. I can give love as well, but they are not always a part of the same moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 12:35 PM

a very honest and touching thread, as well as informative.

but i feel compelled to speak up for young people. we're not all sex crazy and foolish. I waited until I was 21 before I had sex for the first time, and it was my lover's first time as well. We didn't rush, it was almost a year from when we first met before it happened.

Some of us are sensible....just the quiet minority. ;-)

Thank you for this thread, my own parents divorced when I was a teenager and I never really gave much thought to what they were going through in terms of new relationships because I was too wrapped up in my own world of hurt. But I always swore that I wouldn't make the same mistakes they did of falling into a relationship that was doomed to fail. I hope I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: open mike
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

guest-anon...your parents did not fail...your existance is their success

the taker / giver definition reminds me of a book i read...
Ishmael....the author describes people as takers or givers..
very insightful, prize-winning book...with several sequals..
ishmael community...new tribal ventures

i like the maker/taker/faker analogy, too!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Guest, Anon
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 04:56 PM

open mike - you're right, my existence is their success. What I meant was the fact that given hind-sight is 20-20, they should never have gotten married. however, it's a difficult thing, because of course I wouldn't be here if they didn't and I'm rather fond of my life. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 05:02 PM

Guest, anon ... Well said! Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,worried
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 04:50 AM

I have been friends with a man for about six months. We went out at the weekend alone and he came back to my house and we slept together in the same bed. We both kept our pants on and we hugged and cuddled and no more. Is this bad? Neither of us have a relationship with anyone else. It was nice to be hugged all night.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:17 AM

Worried - There is absolutely nothing wrong with cuddling all night, in fact it is a wonderful thing if that's all both of you want. If it leads to more that's good too but just the feeling of closeness and security with anohter person is so worth it.

Givers and takers - we all have to learn to both give and to take. It's great being a giver but even givers ahve to recognise the pleasure felt by the giver and to learn to take from that person with graciousness. I think it's actually easier for givers to do this as there is less selfishness and more consideration of another person's feelings in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: el ted
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 05:24 AM

Yes you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,worried
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

el ted, are your comments aimed at me? Perhaps it was a little rash. nevertheless, it was a warm happy experience. Its difficult when you have little love in your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:59 AM

Believe it or not, it's the cuddling and closeness that I miss most.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Allan C.
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 09:09 AM

It's all sex and it's all wonderful!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: el ted
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 12:03 PM

Get rutting! As the immortal bard said - " Death walks behind you"

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Corridus
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 12:30 PM

I am seriously out of touch with dating. There are no female hamsters in my vicinity. There is only an old and very foolish cat, and a younger human monster female named Zoe who is really quite nice for a monster. I am dateless and bereft. Where can I find a hamstress? It's a real problem.

Otherwise, though, things are good. Zoe's place is turning out to be a great home, complete with a non-carniverous cat. Pretty neat.

Corridus

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: matai
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:41 AM

yeah me too. corridus, i'm having difficulty finding a male matai, i think they're all extinct.

matai (rare new zealand tree, somewhat akin to the american redwood)

oh no dont tell me i have to go to the states

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,closencounters
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 09:30 PM

you feel close to a person, and you want to get close. its a happy occasion. you go through a process of laughing, talking building up trust, negotiating and finally loving, and then the person, who has led the chase all the way, steps back and says aren't you ashamed of yourself.

this is a power game, or a form of class warfare.

or is it just sexual incompatability?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:29 AM

It's not a case of 'are you ashamed of yourself. If the other person isn't ready to go that extra step surely that should be respected, if the feeling from both is genuine. If the respect isn't there then what chance any relationship?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:32 AM

The most dangerous word in the English language is EXPECTATIONS. Constant communications is the key.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:56 AM

trust is a dangerous thing, and thats what this first post was about. how can you trust someone you don't know?

and how you you speak the same language, when you have different cultural filters.

friendship is a precious thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 01:46 PM

Right on Freda. It takes time to know someone. Any good psycopath can look like an angel on earth, but they can't keep up the facade.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 02:04 PM

It 's been my experience that those who expect "nothing"...are seldon disappointed. Don't we all have the expectation that we will be treated well, respected, loved in return?? When a relationship is no longer taking care of the needs and desires of the people involved than isn't it true that we can expect for it to end. The last man in my life said that he expected nothing from our relationship... it ended and now there is nothing! He just went away without a word of explanation...nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Hopeful
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

After my experience...posted earlier..I had a complete break to let myself heal. Couple of years made a huge difference and then out of the blue, I met someone, we were part of a larger group of mates hanging about at college......took time to get to know them as a friend and we've been a couple since December......early days and we are taking it easy and having lots of fun and lots of cuddles

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:53 PM

I know this woman who married for the second time later in life, and she didn't find out until her wedding night that he was impotent. The subject just "never came up" as it were, she just EXPECTED him to be normal. That's what I mean by expectations. Communication is the only answer, yet, we assume, and when the excrement contacts the oscillator, we blame the other person.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: open mike
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 03:18 AM

i love this expression:
"when the excrement contacts the oscillator"
thanks, kendall! can i quote you on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:19 AM

If one of two people uses sex as a barter item, witholding it until some collateral criterion is satisfied, the other in question can be pretty sure any long term relationship will be a battleground of manipulativeness.

If one of two people wants sex more or more frequently than the other, or in a different manner or style than the other, the first proposition above is likely to become true.

Two people may retain a long term relationship despite the above, even if the two people exchange their respective roles as set out in the immediately preceding paragraph. But it does not make it easier in either case.

If a person wants sex with another (not necessarily any particular other), but is not getting it, it is a lot more difficult to deal with when and if that person is one of two people in a relationship than if that person is not in a relationship. Try being hungry in a sweetshop.

Accordingly bothered and bewildered risks preventing the development, and indeed precipitating the end of a relationship.

Disregard convention. Make up your own mind about what you really want and be honest with yourself. If you have sex, do not feel guilty about it. The right thing to do is not a matter of whether you are "in touch" or "out of touch". But of course the relevant other party may very well be aware, consciously or not, of the first four paragraphs above, and decide accordingly. If there is a fundamental issue between the parties about how and how often to have sex, while the relationship may not necessarily be doomed, difficulties are likely to follow.

Nonetheless, if you say : -

"I reserve the right to hop into the sack right away if I want.
I reserve the right not to."

the other person may think the same way, but you cannot reserve the right to hop into the sack unless there is another person who will do the same.

Personally, I cannot understand why people form "relationships" unless they are sexually attracted to each other. In most cases that is mostly a matter of appearance, but the evaluation of that matter of appearance is only partly dependent on dress. Other factors of course may tend to vary the impression gained from appearance, but you have to start somewhere.

Fourteen days is, I suggest, plenty long enough to decide if you are sexually attracted to someone. Equally, because of societal norms (wheter as to "right and wrong" or aesthetics) you may feel inhibited in expressing your own sexuality.   A lifetime may not be long enough to decide whether you will still be bound by the social conventions you were exposed to in your formative periods.   If they conflict with your decision as per the first sentence of this paragraph then the second third and fourth paragraphs at the very beginning of this post are more likely to become relevant if unwelcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 05:52 AM

Sexual attraction is not always a good marker for a relationship. In my time I've met a number of guys who, on first showing, would be the type I would like to spend my life with. I even married one of them. Unfortunately a longer period of time showed up the differences between us.

In common with a lot of other people I find that the emotional switch is turned on by the closeness of sex. If, then, a relationship breaks down due to other factors it hurts badly and takes a lot of time to get over. So, for my part, I'll go into relationships slowly and hope to get to know the other person more as a friend before going that further step. If that is not accepted or respected then so be it.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:12 AM

Richard: I agree with you when you say that "fourteen days is plenty long enough to decide if you are sexually attracted to someone." The attraction occurs a lot sooner than that. In my experience, it is pretty much instantaneous. You don't seem to understand: I was (and am) sexually attracted to this man, and he to me. I explained to him that I wanted to get to know him longer before going to bed with him. In this instance, that meant he went away and has not contacted me again. This is fine by me: His reaction tells me that he is NOT interested in me as a person, he is interested in what he can get from me. (Either just sex itself, or using sex to gain from me in some other way). If I had gone to bed with him right away (as some people have advised on this thread), how long would it have taken for me to learn this about him ?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:29 AM

B&B, if the man disappeared after this conversation, then I agree that you presented him with something he wasn't willing to wait for-a relationship based on more than just sex. In a way, it was good that he left with such immediacy, leaving you with little doubt as to his priorites. Sad that they didn't coincide with your own, but better a short sharp shock then a protracted connection to someone with entirely different ideas of what's important in a relationship of the kind you are looking for.

Kendall you keep saying what I agree with..communication is primary.

Get onto the same page first and formost..then hope for good timing... and then...fingers crossed?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 08:39 AM

There are always differences between people. In the differences lie the opportunities for growth. Just depends whether people are willing to grow or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Alice
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 10:44 AM

It is sad that people have become so accustomed to jumping into a sexual relationship before they know whether they are compatible, committed, and safe with each other. The '60's revolution that changed how we used to more carefully choose partners has been a disaster, leaving shattered lives in its wake, children without fathers, abortions that create emotional scars, STDiseases that kill or cause infertility. Wait and judge a dating partner's character before you become too closely involved. When you are using common sense, dating is for finding character compatability. My life and many of my friends would have been less scarred if we had not gone along with our baby-boomer peer pressure to be sexually active. Play it smarter.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 11:38 AM

I agree with you, Alice. This is why I am surprised that people who have gone through all this when younger, and have lived with the repercussions, are still behaving the same way second or more time around later in life, having apparently learned nothing. It is this surprise that prompted me to start this thread in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 11:49 AM

Relationships that end are not automatically failures. Sometimes they are just relationships that end. Longevity has never been an indication of success.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:25 PM

Hi Alice

I am grateful for the '60's revolution. It has given people the power to get out of incompatable or destructive relationships and not have to put up with crap. For some children, it has been better to be able to grow up away from a parent who has a violence or addictions problem than to stay for the sake of some veneer of respectability.

STDiseases that kill or cause infertility were developing before the 60s, and one of the major problems to preventing their spread is religious mores that proscribe the use of codoms..

In a previous generation, people waited (often for a couple of years) before marriage, it didn't make the marriages any better when they got into them. one of the best peices of legaislation that came into Australian in the mid 70s was the fault free divorce. People didn't have to snoop, accuse, recrimate or attach blame to get a divorce, they could just renegotiate property and cutody and move on with dignity.

I am glad that I have been sexually active, and not passive. I would not have learnt how to enjoy sex if I'd stayed with my first relationship.

I feel lucky that i was born into a time and culture that has given me the freedom to express myself and to choose. My children are better off and have grown up healthy and happy. they have good relationships and happy marriages. The sky hasn't fallen in.

peace

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM

Open Mike, sure go ahead and use it. Sounds better than the original, eh?

I have a friend who will not use the expression "There's a nigger in the woodpile" He will say, "There's an aborigine in the biomass heap."

My general philosophy is simple..if it is mutual, do it. Otherwise find another way to enjoy each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM

I don't think I have anything to add. I think I have covered all points that respond to mine. But I also think that I ought to that extent to re-emphasise what I said - which was fairly carefully non-gender-specific.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 01:27 AM

Richard, I think you really nailed it. At the end of the day it comes down to being a power thing - manipulation and trade-offs.
I see a lot of comment about how you should weigh up the other person to see if they are that perfect match, but surely the reality is that all relationships are about compromise, about growing together over time and tolerating differences. The time a relationship goes wrong is when one or both are no longer prepared to compromise and tolerate, leading to a growing apart and eventual polarisation. In other words, one or both have given up on each other. That may happen sooner rather than later, but surely to put tight rules on a relationship from outset is a good way of ensuring it fails sooner.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:25 AM

Basic question - why is the sexual side of the relationship seemingly so much more important than the emotional/friendship side? What's the mad rush to get the other person into bed? Why does any attempt to slow things down cause such a problem - is that a control thing?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:30 AM

In the first place, the emotional side is more important than the sex, but this only applies if you are BOTH looking for a long term relationship. Now, generally, men believe that it is important to get the sex thing out of the way and see what's left after the passion has cooled, because that's what you deal with on a day to day basis. As I said, that woman didn't find out until too late that her new hubby was impotent, and she didn't want to spend the rest of her life watching him drink beer and watch football.
I've had quite a few experiences where the woman I met was attractive to me, but it wasn't on her agenda to have sex, so, we agreed that wouldn't happen, and we became good friends. In most cases we still are. The thing is, you have to deal with that sexual tension one way or another.
No Jacqui, it's not a control thing, it's advocating for what you need just as he is doing when he wants to bed you. If he gets upset because you wont "put out" the hell with him! more than likely all he really wants is your body anyway.
Find a guy who wants a long term relationship, and avoid the ones who are not serious, (unless you also just want to enjoy a bit of horizontal entertainment) more and more women are opting for that these days since women's lib came into the picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,shycat
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:42 AM

well, the problem is that some people have stronger drives than others. some are keen to hit the sack, some are ready to sock the one who hits.

and in the meantime, a few shellshocked people are looking about and feeling nervous at the thought of getting back into all that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:10 AM

It's always a choice. You don't have to do a damn thing that you don't want to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM

Bothered and Bewildered, with all due respect you sound rather sanctimonious and self-righteous about the whole matter of sexuality and sexual attraction. You also sound like you have been influenced by a load of religious crap about sexuality.

While, I agree with Alice on the fact that along with unprotected sex, we can expect STD's and HIV/AIDS, we don't encounter these things because we are BAD for being sexually liberal.

I've always thought sexual expression can and should be as widely expressive of human emotion, thought, and behavior as we have variations in humans. Sex is a pasttime, an adventure, a sporting event, an athletic encounter, a power struggle, an expression of deep love and affection, a stress reliever, an anxiety reliever, a creative event, an exploration, and so on. I do think it should be mutually agreed upon as to what's up, however....

The man who walked away from you because you didn't want to have sex was rejecting your notion of what sex was and going to look for someone whose ideas about it more matched his own. Don't make him not-okay because he didn't want to place sex within the context you have decried to be the only acceptable one....it reaks of sanctimoniousness. You don't sound like much fun.....love, harpgirl

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:58 AM

Dear Harpgirl,
If you look again at my post of 8th March 08.18 PM you will see that I wrote:
"I am certainly not judging or criticizing anybody else's views here. This is all just helping me (and maybe hopefully others) to think around this subject."

I think that stated clearly enough where I am coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 11:49 AM

Okay, Bothered and Bewildered, you did say that, and added just a tiny bit of moralizing to it to water it down (and hopefully , others) but I was reacting to what you then said in these last two posts:


"This is why I am surprised that people who have gone through all this when younger, and have lived with the repercussions, are still behaving the same way second or more time around later in life, having apparently learned nothing"

This remark is definitely sanctimonious, in my view. His behavior only says he is going elsewhere, not that he "has learned nothing". Did you ask him why he quit you?



"His reaction tells me that he is NOT interested in me as a person, he is interested in what he can get from me. (Either just sex itself, or using sex to gain from me in some other way). "

This is also an assumption based on your moral view of what sex should be, I think. Maybe he just wanted to show you a good time and he thinks that's his only asset. Did you ever think of that?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:41 PM

Maybe he just didn't want to be with you forever? Why not try a marriage bureau, at least you are sure to meet a man who has the same long term goal as you.

Maybe he DID just want to give you his idea of a good time. When he realised you have a different idea of a good time he left. Neither of you are wrong, just different.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bothered and Bewildered
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:01 PM

Harpgirl and Guest: Read the sentence again:

"This is all just helping me (and maybe hopefully others) to think around this subject."

I repeat: I am not moralizing or judging what is right and wrong. There is NO moralizing or judging in the above statement. "Helping others to think around this subject" means just that. It became apparent from the number of people who posted to this thread, just how many people did want to think around the subject: tell of their experiences, express their views, exchange their views, look at things from another person's perspective. From such an exchange (on whatever subject), an individual may or may not change their viewpoint. Such an exchange of views can serve to clarify and confirm their existing view. All of this is a good thing and at the end of the day we can agree to differ.

Harpgirl, you missed out the word "apparently" when you quoted me. I did not say "learned nothing" I said "apparently learned nothing." The addition of that word makes a world of difference to the meaning. "Apparently" means "as it appears to me." It is not a dictatorial statement or judgment. It is my viewpoint, which is no more or less valid than anybody else's.

As I just said, at the end of the day we can agree to differ.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,let liver
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:26 PM

some they will and some they won't and some its just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:08 PM

harpgirl.."I've always thought sexual expression can and should be as widely expressive of human emotion, thought, and behavior as we have variations in humans. Sex is a pasttime, an adventure, a sporting event, an athletic encounter, a power struggle, an expression of deep love and affection, a stress reliever, an anxiety reliever, a creative event, an exploration, and so on. I do think it should be mutually agreed upon as to what's up, however...."

with respect you have no idea what B & B's approach to sex is, because for her its a private thing.

a person may be reserved, cautious, or considered about getting involved with another person. this doesn't mean that they are judgemental of others' practises in anyway, it also doesn't mean that they aren't creative in private. its just about being cautious before establishing trust with a potential sexual partner.

i had some friends, two sisters, who worked as prostitutes for some years. They both dismissed other women as limited idiots who were ineffectual in the bedroom. Over the years i observed they both had major problems in establishing intimacy with men, on any levels. their views of other women were based on their own need for one upmanship. as well, the sort of men they chose to be involved with were ultimately selfish and exploitative.

personally, once negotiations come into it, to me the spontaneity is over. it turns into industrial relations, just like any workplace does when power relationships break down. consideration and sharing are more appealing words.

intimacy, the desire to be close to a particular someone because they are admirable, to express affection to that person, and yes to love, leads to powerful enjoyable moments that are no one else's business. and no one else's to judge.


freda

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:22 AM

Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:31 AM

Freda and Kendall

Well said.

Sharing is a major part of any relationship and if one person feels pressured into doing anything by another that is NOT sharing - it's control.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 09:42 AM

We are all so different, it's remarkable that we get on at all. However, we must try, and I guess we do pretty well, otherwise the planet wouldn't be over populated.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 10:29 AM

Well, it's because no matter how different we get we cleave to some very universal similarities -- innies and outies -- so we can always find something to do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: harpgirl
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:03 AM

I don't know freda, B and B gave a pretty good public description of what she thought sex should be here:

I may be out of touch and old-fashioned, but I think sex with a partner is meant to go so far beyond the mere physical "relief of tension". We humans are body, mind and spirit. You say: "But sex can be recreational. Unless you view every prospective partner as a husband." Yes I do. Not in the sense of a 'legal piece of paper husband' but in the sense of someone with whom I share everything. For whom nothing about me is hidden. Where this Trust, Honesty and Love. That is a true husband and wife, "Married with God's blessing" without necessarily a church or a priest. You can have a good idea about the nature of a person within seconds of meeting them, but it takes time for trust, honesty and love to grow to fruition. Then, and only then, you are not "indulging in physical sex", you are Making Love.


I do get the impression from her posts that she doesn't entertain any other approach because she believes hers is the correct one. Perhaps I am wrong in my interpretation. Perhaps she is truly saying hers is only correct for herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

Harpgirl:

Unfortunately some folks aren't really adept at experiencing that kind of intimacy. And it doesn't work on a one-way path, does it??

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 11:55 AM

Harpgirl, I have always thought that B&B was trying to be clear that she was only expressing her own feelings, and yet wanted to open up a discussion to others expressing theirs as well. I don't think she ever began this thread to give judgement, but only to admit quite openly that she still had her own questions and concerns about how she might now go about finding the kind of relationship that would work for her.

This thread is long enough, and varied enough to show we all have different views-some come closer in agreement to B&Bs and some absolutely are not.

If we did not feel safe to offer up our thoughts about what is, in the end, an intensely personal subject, and no one's business to decide how to proceed with their relationships, I doubt anyone would have bothered adding to the original posting..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Bill Clinton
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 12:06 PM

Brucie, I FEEL your pain! Let me know if there's any way I can help.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 12:33 PM

I think it's better not to be judgmental on such a sensitive subject, but it seems (overall impression, not attached to a specific quote) that B+B feels that sex needs to be justified, and that there is something that is needed to justify a man's wish to have sex with her.

Hence, it seems, she thinks less of the man for seeking sex as such.

I think that if that is a disappointment to her, it is likely to be a frequent one. Sexual disparity will be more likely to disrupt than to cement a relationship.

From what I learn from my daughter and her friends, about their generation, disapproval of the sexually active woman is still to be found - expressions such as "slutty" are still more frequently used of women than men. But I think that that tendency (of which I strongly disapprove) is now less found - but of course the norms may be different between different generations and also different societies. My daughter's degree thesis was (I am proud to say - a difficult subject for a young woman!) on the sex artist Annie Sprinkles, and 30 years ago that would have been very hard to envisage, as would the idea of Sprinkles' work as non-phallocentric.

My limited direct experience, since the death of my long-term partner nearly a year ago, and also my observations of social sexual matters in the middle aged would be that the current single older generation is likely to be pretty damned direct if it is bothered, and not to bother at all if it cannot be much bothered. I also suggest that in many cases older singles (of either gender) may very well not want to settle down again immediately. A relationship will last as long as it lasts. Those with an affliction of the Pauline ethic tend to yoyo between moving in and moving out. Others may rub along together but keep it low key. At least that is what I think I see.

On balance therefore I tend to think that yes, B+B is out of touch with contemporary norms of both the young and the older, at least as far as the UK perspective is concerned.

HOwever, if she is in the USA, that country seems (in parts) to suffer more from the shibboleths of organised religions, and it may be that her views are in accordance with needs of self preservation against "righteous" outrage, and so within the bounds of normality, at least in some communities, there.

B+B, it's your call and you have to decide what you want to do and what is more likely to make you content. Having spent some time telling you my views, I now have to say that my own views don't matter. The important thing to you has to be your own views, but try to understand them before you act on them or you may make yourself less rather than more content. Remember, if you want a car but cannot afford a Rolls Royce, a mini may have to suffice.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

harpgirl, aeriel upsidedown leaps aside, the flying trapeze of tumblebedown and toss, or the interpolitical jelly grapple & roll, or a wiggling waltzm & schmaltzm, all these and more - can be ruined by a ...








....snore
in the meantime, lets enjoy bantering about the whys and wherefores of the lead in, and its trials and passages, and our own stops and starts

without spiking anyone with our leopardskin stilettos....
we can get pantsy without gettin antsy!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM

judgmental: Inclined to make judgments, especially moral or personal ones.

ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.

I see a split in two views in this thread, those who believe that sexual activity carries a responsiblity with it and those who think sexual activity is just for fun. Because sexual activity 1. can cause pregnancy if the couple is fertile and 2. can transmit serious diseases (and multiple partners increase the chance of cervical cancer for example) I think sexual activity carries a responsibility. People who have ethics must make value judgements, moral choices. It is only reasonable that many people make value judgements about sexual activity - how many partners, how well they know their partner, how committed their partner is to staying with them and not be promiscuous (promiscuity increasing the chance of std's), first of all, how compatible they are in character and other ways that increase the chance that they will stay together... these are reasonable things to consider BEFORE having sex with someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 11:14 AM

Alice,

I concur with all you say , but I would add that the emotional layer is a consequence as well, for many people, and needs tobe taken into account. It is also a responsibility, in its way. Like any responsibility, it can be made perverse and disabling, when it is distorted and abused; but it exists, I believe.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Alice
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:06 PM

Some risk results that warrant responsible choices:

Bacterial Vaginosis

Chlamydia
(especially serious for women because it can lead to infertility, chronic pain, and death)

Genital Warts
(There is no cure. Both men and women can get genital warts, in women the HPV wart virus on the cervix can lead to cancer).

Gonorrhea
One million new cases reported each year in the US. Young men aged 20 to 24 have the highest rate. Children vaginally born to women with gonorrhea can get gonorrhea of the eyes while passing through the birth canal, causing blindness. In women it causes pain, fever, infection of the whole body, infertility and possibly death.

Hepatitis B
Causes swelling of the liver. In 10% of those infected, the disease becomes chronic and life threatening. In infants born to HBV infected mothers, 90% will have chronic hepatitis.

Hepatitis C
People infected can have no symptoms for 20 or more years. You should be specifically tested for HCV antibody if you have used IV drugs, received a blood transfusion before 1991, snorted cocaine, been tattooed, or had multiple sex partners. Those chronically infected have a high risk of developing liver cancer or liver failure.

Herpes
Herpes is spread by skin to skin contact. Most exposure occurs when the person has no symptoms of a rash. The virus is shed from the skin so that condoms do not protect against transmission. One in five in the general population have genital herpes. There is no cure at this time.

HIV & AIDS

Molluscum contagiosum
Viral infection of the skin.

Syphilis
Syphilis cases are increasing in the world, 20 out of every 100,000 are infected. After the first symptoms go away, syphilis can be latent for 15 years or so. It affects the brain and spinal cord often causing mental illness or paralysis. It can also cause inflammation of the aorta and rubbery lumps under the skin.

Trichomonas
Trichomonas is a protozoa. Men who have it rarely have symptoms, but when a woman is infected, they have symptoms that can include pain, swelling, and irritation.

These risks should be enough to make people judge very carefully with whom they choose to have sex.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

No one can argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:00 PM

To me, thats like saying don't go outside or you'll be hit by a car, and listing the types of vehicles.

or like saying, don't eat at a restaurant, you may get salmonella poisoning.

or like saying, don't sit at a computer, you'll be affected by radiation.

I'm happy to cross the road, but I look each way before I do, and so far, I haven't been hit by a bus!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM

Would anyone buy a dog without a written guarantee that it was free of disease?

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:05 PM

to quote the anthropomorphic god thread..

One cannot simply dismiss another human being as "evil" without missing part of what that person is.

projecting views of germs, gremlins, viruses, warts, death and rotten decay onto your view of "bad" people....   how healthy is that?

mentally, its moving between bigotry and paranoia.

ill will finds many reasons to express itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:40 PM

Old Arab proverb, "Trust everyone, but tie your camel"

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:09 PM

... or he may come down with gonorrhea, enshallah!

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:27 PM

this is getting back to the inter species thread..

yes, we wouldn't want the camel to catch any diseases.

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 07:37 AM

Here is the Leunig link you wanted freda:

The Great Divide - The Haves and the Have Nots

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:28 AM

thanks, jen! this says it all....

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: GUEST,Quirky but True
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:48 AM

Ah ! But might it not be that the people who the "Haves" think are the "Have-Nots" might be considering themselves to be the "Haves" and the *others* to be the "Have-Nots" (and vice versa !)
Have you "Haves" ever thought of THAT ????

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: JennyO
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 10:33 AM

GUEST, quirky but true, you have looked at the link, haven't you?

Traditionally, the HAVES have been considered to be the ones with all the trappings of material success and wealth. I have met and worked for some of these people - I have seen what their lives are like, and I would not choose to live in their world. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with having money, but in my opinion,these are not the things that bring true happiness.

I have very little money, but I am rich in friends and family, in my connection with the natural world, and my appreciation of the many things that give me pleasure, such as music, sunsets, the smell of a frangipani, and a million other small things.

I haven't always played it safe, but the risk-taking has been rewarding. My life has been, and continues to be, an interesting journey. I'm happy to be one of Leunigs "those who have a twinkle in their eye".

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:41 AM

I showed dogs (pointers) for some years with some slight success. Never heard of a breeder offering a written guarantee that dogs were free of [whatever]. Some breeds it is customary to have hip scores, or to ask for confirmation that sire and dam have not had entropion, etc.

Condoms are not guaranteed. But they do substantially reduce all the stated health risks and the risk of pregnancy.

And these were not the thrust of B+B's dilemma, which was about the moral obligation to wait (or otherwise).

Subject: RE: BS: Dating Behaviour - am I out of touch ?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 12 Aug 04 - 07:58 AM

refresh