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BS: Hockey :BS

Raptor 10 Mar 04 - 09:44 AM
Bobert 10 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM
Bee-dubya-ell 10 Mar 04 - 10:58 AM
Pseudolus 10 Mar 04 - 11:03 AM
Raptor 10 Mar 04 - 11:12 AM
Deckman 10 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM
Allan C. 10 Mar 04 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,pdc 10 Mar 04 - 12:40 PM
Metchosin 10 Mar 04 - 12:56 PM
Little Hawk 10 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM
Wolfgang 10 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM
Don Firth 10 Mar 04 - 08:29 PM
Peace 10 Mar 04 - 08:36 PM
Cobble 10 Mar 04 - 09:20 PM
Bill D 10 Mar 04 - 09:30 PM
Cobble 10 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM
Peace 10 Mar 04 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Boab 11 Mar 04 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Somehow cookieless W,E. 11 Mar 04 - 03:46 AM
dianavan 11 Mar 04 - 04:03 AM
Beardy 11 Mar 04 - 07:07 AM
Pseudolus 11 Mar 04 - 09:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Mar 04 - 10:01 AM
Peace 11 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM
freda underhill 11 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM
Don Firth 11 Mar 04 - 01:24 PM
Mrs.Duck 11 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM
Pseudolus 11 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,pdc 11 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM
Little Hawk 11 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM
Peace 11 Mar 04 - 05:33 PM
Don Firth 11 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM
Shanghaiceltic 12 Mar 04 - 03:05 AM
dianavan 12 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM
Peace 12 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM
Pseudolus 12 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM
Peace 12 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM
Little Hawk 12 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM
freda underhill 12 Mar 04 - 08:23 PM
Peace 12 Mar 04 - 08:40 PM
*daylia* 13 Mar 04 - 05:08 AM
Don Firth 13 Mar 04 - 02:34 PM
Pseudolus 15 Mar 04 - 01:28 PM
Don Firth 15 Mar 04 - 03:56 PM
Pseudolus 16 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM
Don Firth 16 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM
Pseudolus 16 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM
Cluin 17 Mar 04 - 07:10 AM
ToulouseCruise 17 Mar 04 - 01:38 PM
Pseudolus 19 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM
Don Firth 19 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Mar 04 - 05:02 PM
ToulouseCruise 19 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

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Subject: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:44 AM

If I went to work Pissed off at someone and waited till they were on the way to the photocopyer ran up behind them sucker punched them in the back of the head than tackeled them Breaking thier neck and continued punching them I wonder what would happen to me?

Why do we call this a sport when theres nothing sporting about it?

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:49 AM

Hey, I went to a boxing match and guess what? A hockey game broke out!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 10:58 AM

Minor league sports like AA and AAA baseball, CBA basketball and arena football fall on their faces quite regularly down here in the sunny southland. A team comes to town amid a bunch of hoopla, people go to the games for a couple of years, attendance drops, and the team folds.

But the one sport that southerners in mid-sized cities like Pensacola, Florida and Mobile, Alabama have taken to their hearts is hockey. Go figure. Most of the people down here have never seen ice other than what's in their beverage of choice. Do we really believe all these good-ole-boys down here have developed an interest in the intricacies of a game played while propelling oneself around an ice-filled enclosure wearing, get this, ice skates?

Nah! It's the blood. Gotta be the blood.

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:03 AM

The difference is, fighting in hockey is not only tolerated but encouraged. Whether we like it or not, it is a part of the game. The thing that stands out here is that it was a sucker punch which doesn't fall into the same category as your everyday hockey fight. I was talking with a friend and he pointed out something interesting about the punch. Look at the replay....the guy that gets hit turns his head into the punch at the last minute very much increasing the impact of the punch. If that doesn't happen, he probably doesn't get knocked out, therefore he probably doesn't hit the ice head first, therefore he doesn't break his neck and this incident goes from being villified on ESPN to being glorified as a "top ten" highlight of the night. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it was his fault for turning into the punch, he had no idea it was coming, but on the other hand, there's no way in my mind that a broken neck was the intent of that punch either. Hockey is a violent sport, as are many others but hockey is unique cause of the fights that happen virtually every night in some hockey arena somewhere.

This was an incredibly unfortunate incident and without a doubt there should be a stiff penalty and perhaps even legal action against the player, but I suggest that all of these incidents that we see on ESPN every night should be worthy of stiff penalties, not just the ones where someone breaks his neck.


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Raptor
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 11:12 AM

I say charge him with attempted Murder!

Send a message to all the goons

Clean up hockey and make it the beautiful sport that it could be.

Raptor


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

Doggone it Bobert ... you took the joke right out of mouth. Bride Judy and I are NOT sport fans, unless bedroom antics count. But this morning at breakfast, she was very upset when she saw the incident on TV.

Sure, he should be charged with a crime. Do I have any faith that it would be useful to improve the so called "sport?" Of course not. Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Allan C.
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:29 PM

When I was a kid, a favorite expression was, "bull-hockey". I think that sums up my thoughts about this and many other contact sports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:40 PM

I don't like hockey because of the fighting. But in 1972 I watched the Canada-Russia game and never saw anything so terrific. No fighting, just skilled players deftly moving a puck around the ice being blocked by other skilled players. Hockey can be a sport in which expertise is wonderful to watch. Unfortunately, it isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 12:56 PM

I am in agreement with you there pdc. The only time I watch hockey is during the Olympics. The sad thing is that North American players have the skills, its just that mangement would prefer to keep it as a blood sport, because they want to appeal to the broadest spectrum of fans, including the lowest common denominator.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

Yes, the Canada-Russia series in '72 was just amazing hockey. The real blame for the current state of hockey falls on the management. They encourage fighting. Listen to that lunatic, Don Cherry sometime. He is the loudest proponent of the "if ya can't beat 'em in the alley, ya can't beat 'em on the ice" theme. He's drunk on his own testosterone.

They have discovered that violence in hockey sells more tickets. Bingo! They encourage it.

Hockey as it is played now is war on ice, gladiatorial combat for a jaded public. It's the WWF on skates.

But when a player goes "over the line" he's in big trouble. Well, that happens in war too. Then it's called "war crimes".

I see no solution as long as the same old crass people run the game just in order to make more money by any means possible.

I've never bought a ticket to a hockey game in my life, but I used to enjoy watching it on TV back in the 70's. Then the Philadelphia Flyers started their goon hockey and the game slowly deteriorated. I gave up on watching it after awhile.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 01:17 PM

If such things would happen in the normal work life, people might go to work in an outfit like hockey players do.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:29 PM

I saw it on the evening news and was thoroughly disgusted.

I used to fence. In fencing, one tries to "run through" or "touch" one's opponent with a sword. The sword fencers use is called a "foil." [Lest someone feel moved to fill in other details, let me say that there is also the épée (a favorite four-letter word in crossword puzzles) and the saber, similar weapons but with different rules and conventions.] It's called a foil because the tip is "foiled" or blunted, and the blade itself is flexible, more flexible than that of an actual dueling weapon. If one is properly kitted out with glove, padded jacket, and mask, the only thing that gets hurt when one is "touched" ("touché" in French) is one's pride.

This is a martial art that developed over the centuries. Your opponent uses his blade to parry (deflect or block) your attacks, and you use your blade to parry his attacks. There are feints, false attacks, sudden changes of distance, explosive direct attacks, and deep-laid plots made up of planned sequences of false attacks and parry-ripostes that you try to suck your opponent into, just as he is trying to lure you into what he wants you to do. It's very much like high-speed chess, but in addition to a finely honed tactical sense, it demands great speed and physical endurance. Since it so closely simulates mortal combat between two people that the only difference between a fencing bout and a duel is that, in the fencing bout, nobody gets killed, and often the two adversaries go out afterward for a couple of beers, it can certainly be considered a "violent sport."

I can imagine what would happen to me if, in a brief break between bouts, I were to walk up behind an opponent and sock him one. I would be thrown out of whatever fencing club I belonged to, barred from other clubs, never be allowed to compete again in any sanctioned tournament, and quite probably I would be charged with assault and battery. I would most definitely be charged if I seriously injured my victim.

Sneaking up behind someone and sucker-punching him is not a legitimate part of any sport I know of, including the sports that most people think of as "violent."

"But it's a violent sport" is not a legitimate excuse for behaving like a brute. The assailant should be prosecuted to the limit of the law, and any owners or managers who encourage this kind of savagery should also be held liable. And fans who go because they want to see this kind of behavior should hide their heads in shame. But that's too much to hope for, I guess.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 08:36 PM

I played football (real football, not that stuff from Europe) when I was younger. Hard-hitting, fun. (I am bugging soccer fans with that remark.) There were few if any fights. Trying to start one had immediate punishments associated with it. Today, I still enjoy watching football (real football, not that stuff from Europe), but I can't stand hockey anymore. I loved the 1972 series. Henderson's goal will always be a moment many of us will remember--where we were and what we were doing. As a kid I really liked watching the game. Today, no. Play the game and cut the crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Cobble
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:20 PM

I played football (real football, not that stuff from Europe).

Try rugby football that is the original game Unlike the namby pambys in American football they dont wear armour to play, shorts and shirt and boots only. Put your whimps on a field like that, or has we say in Yorkshire keep your gob shut.

       Cobble


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:30 PM

rugby doesn't feature players at 300-350 lbs trying to sit on players at 170-220..different game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Cobble
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:33 PM

No, you have to be tough to play rugby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 09:52 PM

Ya have to be CRAZY to play rugby. I watched about five or six games before I figured out it has RULES. I'll grant you that. But the matches I've watched don't have the fights that occur (as a rule) in hockey. And if you are a rugby player, and you're really pissed off at me, I'm only using the name 'brucie'. This is really Little Hawk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:16 AM

Saw a headline today which warned that school-kids mimic the behaviour of hockey players. I think they have it the wrong way round.
Neanderthals like the being who delivered the rabbit punch should be banned for life from taking part in any sport which involves competition with another living being.Just as long as characters like this are allowed to take part in "sport",quotes around the word will be advised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: GUEST,Somehow cookieless W,E.
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 03:46 AM

If you want to see a sport thqt has lost EVERYTHING, take a look at boxing.

My grandfather and I used to watch Friday Night Fights almost every weekend. You could actually see how the boxers were using their technique Technigue now seems to be, 'get the money, mess someone up a little bit, then clear out with your guarantees.'

And would someone please explain crickett to me? I'm serious, I'd like to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:03 AM

Hockey is a wonderful sport. Professional hockey is a blood sport played by spoiled, little rich boys.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Beardy
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:07 AM

Are we supposed to know what you're referring to? Did someone assault someone else when skating after a piece of rubber?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 09:42 AM

Don,
   I understand what you're saying but I think the analogy is a bad one. I would suspect that you might be thrown out of any fencing club for a fight whether it involved a sucker punch or not. I think that too often we try to compare apples and oranges, like when someone compares what happened in this hockey game to what would have happened if they did that at their workplace. Well, unless your workplace condones and even encourages fighting and retaliation, then I think the comparison makes no sense and yes, you would most likely be fired.

   If hockey wants to clean up its image and its sport then it should make an example of this incident. However, the NHL should only do that if they plan on following it up by punishing ALL of the incidents that have the same potential for injury. You can't have a "No Harm, No Foul" attitude because frankly, it's that attitude that has gotten them to where they are today.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 10:01 AM

Google Sports with lots of links to stories

Mixing signals: If Martha Stewart had walked up to someone and done this she'd be charged with attempted murder and they'd lock her up and throw away the key.

Football, hockey, basketball, baseball even, they're entertainment, not sports. Sports are activities in which you participate and run around and get exercise. If you go to watch the game you're going to be entertained. Promoters have taken the measure of the fans of these games and the fighting continues. The stakes are high, with huge salaries on the table. To keep the crowds, the fighting continues.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM

Cobble,

I don't know much about rugby. Does it have fighting the way hockey in North America does? Anyone?

Bruce M

Hey, SRS, she may be doing some time, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 11:35 AM

hockey is for wimps and girls...

ever tried Buzkashi?

Buzkashi, which literally translated means "goat grabbing" is the national sport of Afghanistan. in modern buzkashi cattle carcasses are used.

In buzkashi, a headless carcass is placed in the centre of a circle and surrounded by the players of two opposing teams. The object of the game, is to get control of the carcass and bring it to the scoring area. Although it seems like a simple task, it is not. Only the most masterful players, (called chapandaz) ever even get close to the carcass. The competition is fierce, and the winner of a match receives prizes that have been donated by a sponsor. These prizes range from money, to fine turbans and clothes. In order for someone to become a chapandaz, they have to undergo a tremendous amount of difficult training. In fact, the best chapandaz, are usually over the age of forty.

There are two types of buzkashi, Tudabarai and Qarajai. Tudabarai is relatively simple compared with Qarajai, even though they share similar objectives. In Tudabarai, in order to score, the rider must obtain possession of the carcass and then carry it away from the starting circle in any direction. The rider must stay free and clear of the other riders.

In Qarajai, the task is much more complex. The player must carry the calf around a marker, and then return the carcass to the team's designated scoring circle. In each version of the game, points are awarded for successfully completing the task of getting control of the carcass, and getting it to the proper scoring area.

The winner of each match receives prizes which have been put up by a sponsor. The top prizes are usually money, or fine clothes. The players are not the only ones who undergo arduous training; the horses that participate in buzkashi must train for five years before ever making it to the playing field. Buzkashi is a dangerous sport, but intensive training and excellent communication between the horse and rider can help minimise the risk of injury. To many Afghans, Buzkashi is not just a game, it is a way of life; a way in which teamwork and communication are essential to being successful.

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:24 PM

Well, Pseudolus, I'm not to sure that the analogy doesn't hold. In hockey, the object of the game is for five guys to get the puck into the net while five other guys try to keep them from doing it, gain possession of the puck, and put it into the net at their end of the rink. There are rules. Whacking someone with your stick is a no-no. The object of a competitive fencing bout is to score five touches on your opponent before he scores five touches on you. Slashing at your opponent with your whippy blade or otherwise trying to hurt him is also a no-no. In neither sport is using your fists instead of your stick or foil part of it.

By the way, competitive fencing used to be scored visually by four judges and a director. The director followed the action while two judges watched each fencer and called out when they saw a touch. Some years ago they managed to wire the weapons, and now scoring is done electronically. This has all but ruined fencing if one wishes to keep the sport associated with its origins in the duel (it got started as a way to practice with one's sword in case one should ever be called out). Now, if two opponents touch each other nearly simultaneously, if one touch arrives 1/25 of a second before the other, the scoring equipment locks out the second touch.

The result of this is that if one watches fencing these days, instead of seeing two people using their weapons skillfully and trying to outwit each other (also like chess, you need to know the game to fully appreciated an especially good coup, which is probably why it has never achieved much status as a spectator sport, especially in America), you see two white-clad bozos going after each other like a couple of berserk sewing machines. In a duel, you want to score "first blood"—wound or kill your opponent without being wounded yourself. In modern competitive fencing with electrical scoring equipment, the object is to touch your opponent 1/25 of a second before he touches you. This also leads to techniques such as the "flick," which causes the electrical scoring equipment to register a touch even when the contact made wouldn't cause a wound. Within recent years, a new (!??) form of fencing has developed: classic fencing. No electrical scoring equipment, and any action that, in a real duel, a reasonable person would not attempt is forbidden. Classic fencers are beautiful to watch and genuinely exiting.

Anyway, I digress . . . .

My point is that there is so much emphasis placed on winning at all costs and any way you can that sport has ceased to be sport. "Tactics" like whacking a figure skater's knee with a billy club backstage or sucker-punching an opposing player is just as inappropriate on the ice, on the fencing strip, or on the football field as it is in the office or on the street. It should be treated as an assault, "violent sport" notwithstanding.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 01:37 PM

Well there was never any fighting when I was captain of our school hockey team - but then we had the sense to play it on terra firma!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

Don,
   My point is if the guy didn't break his neck, this thread would not exist because this would all have been a non-issue. This sort of thing happens all the time in hockey and what they get for it is a slap on the wrist i.e. two or five minutes in the penalty box depending if there was blood! There is no way to compare that to fencing. A fight of any kind let alone a sucker punch would be WAY out of the norm in fencing but it happens EVERY DAY in hockey. The same punch that gets a player a measley five minutes for fighting in hockey would get a fencer (correct word?) disqualified. Therefore, you just can't compare the two and that's the point I'm making. You can't take what happens in a hockey arena and apply the same logic to that event happening at a fencing match or in your office or by Martha Stuart. They are not the same. fighting in hockey whether anyone likes it or not IS the norm, it's expected, it's encouraged and it's cheered on by hockey fans. I'm not suggesting that it's right or that I like it but it's reality. Projecting that same behavior elsewhere is not.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:03 PM

The player was fined $250,000 and banned for (I think) the rest of the season. Management is appealing it as unjust.

To be fair to this player, apparently the player he hurt did the same sort of thing to one of this fellow's teammates in a recent game, and gave the guy a concussion, so that he had to miss 3 games. This was evidently retaliation.

The whole thing is disgusting now -- it's neither entertainment nor sport. It would have played well had they been able to put ice in the Roman Forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:13 PM

Geez, I'm gonna sound like someone's mother here--but two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the victim this time did the same thing last time with lesser consequences, that doesn't mean you blame the victim this time. This time someone got hurt more seriously and this time it is going to cost a lot of people a lot more money, pain, and time. The other times they were all just lucky that someone didn't get seriously hurt. This time the short straw was drawn and there are consequences. One man committed an act in which someone else was hurt--that's what makes the difference.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

Yeah, that's right. Fighting is encouraged in hockey. Violence is encouraged. Vendettas and cheap shots are encouraged. The only time anyone gets in serious trouble is when serious injury results. This is hypocrisy on a massive scale, and the whole hockey industry is to blame for it. All they care about are ticket sales.

Brucie...tryin' to get me into trouble, eh? I just want to say that all rugby players should be alert to the fact that brucie has deeply insulted your glorious (cough! cough!) sport...excuse me...and I will be glad to supply you with his home address so you can talk it over with him... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:33 PM

. . . and if you're REAL rugby players, you'll bring the beer with you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:57 PM

Well, my point is that assault is assault, and just because it's hockey doesn't excuse it. It's outside the rules (show me in the hockey rule book where it says it's okay to punch an opposing team member) and, furthermore, it's against the law for one person to assault another.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:05 AM

Having been involved in practising and teaching kendo (Japanese fencing) for the last 20 years I find the fights, bad temper and tantrums thrown by so called professional sportspeople (being PC there)on and off the pitch, rink, green or whatever, very sad.

Why? It points to a total lack of personal control.

People who loose their control in such situations will also tend to show the same behaviour outside of their particular sports or discipline. Look at the various stories over the last year involving sports personalities getting themselves into deep deep trouble.

Loss of temper is loss of control, no one wins when control is lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:26 AM

I wanted the boys (eight yr. olds) in my class to wake up so I casually (but loud enough so they could hear it) commented that I thought Bertuzzi was an animal and should be thrown in jail. Well! I haven't seen them so animated this whole year. They turned on me! "yeh," they said "he's an animal, all right (broad, appreciative grins all around) but the cops better stay off the ice!" Besides that, they reasoned, thats what you get when you mess with the captain of our team!   

Go figure...? Canada has the reputation of being a peaceful country but it has the bloodiest sport of all!

It must be some kind of way to balance a passive image or something ...

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM

Boys (most of them) go through that macho stage, mostly trying to prove themselves to the other boys. The ones that NEVER grow out of it seem to be go into professional sport!

Anyone who was a serious practitioner of martial arts would indeed pity them their lack of control and good judgement. A skilled fighter learns not to lose his temper, and to fight only when it is NECESSARY in order to protect himself or someone else.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM

Shanghaiceltic:

I read your post with amusement. I am involved with Wing Chun, and I too find the 'bad attitude' in games like hockey very distasteful. There is no need for it, but the participants are being allowed to do that and in many cases encouraged. Bad teacher, bad student.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM

But in hockey, it's NOT assault, any more than it would be in boxing. The hockey rule book doesn't have to say that fighting is legal, just look at the punishment to see the reality of the situation. They sit in the penalty box for five minutes and the rest of the team uses their "special teams" group to kill the penalty. They practice those things because the fights are inevitable. Charging someone to sit in the corner for five minutes when the don't play nice i.e. fight, is not supporting the idea that fighting is against the rules. If you're willing to pay the price, 5 minute, you can fight as often as you want! Every hockey team has at least one player who has minimal hockey skills but is willing to go out on the ice and retaliate, it's what they're paid for. I agree, it doesn't excuse it, I don't agree with it, but it is reality.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:42 PM

re "you have to be tough to play rugby". Does it also help to be humourless?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM

Not necessarily, but it probably helps to be unimaginative and a bit dense...

Being "dead stupid" couldn't hurt either, I figure. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:23 PM

LoL

the only game worth anything is Australia Rule football - VERY different from normal football, a graceful, powerful game of leaps running, and tall powerful men who don't need to huddle in scrums & grunt


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:40 PM

See? It's the language, not the game. Football (North American--which REAL men play stark naked in -40 degree weather, not like those namby-pamby rugby players who wear shirts, shorts and boots) in Canada just has huddles. If we had scrums and grunts, we'd be Australian. Now, any place I go is downhill. So, s'long for now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:08 AM

Raptor, if you think hockey's violent, check out the history of Canada's "other" national sport - the only one that's earned us more Olympic gold than the rest of the world combined, and the predecessor of ice hockey - Lacrosse.

The game was often played tribe against tribe, or village against village, with as many as 1000 individuals taking part in a wild mêlée that likely resulted in serious injuries to some players, and perhaps even a fatality. These aggressive tribal contests were more a test of endurance and manhood than a game, and were preceded by up to two weeks of rigorous training.

Now just imagine a hockey rink with no sidelines and up to a 1000 players on the ice, all hell-bent to prove or defend their "tribal honor". What a pretty picture, huh? No wonder Canadians are so manly and rigorous!

;-)   daylia


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:34 PM

". . . the fights are inevitable."

No sale! Assault is assault. In boxing, punching your opponent (with padded gloves on) is an integral, necessary part of the sport. It is refereed and judged. In hockey, punching an opposing team member is not an integral part of the sport and indeed earns a penalty. If the penalties are not sufficient to deter the behavior, that's a flaw in the rules and still doesn't make it right.

Pseudolus, you say you don't approve of this kind of behavior, but still, you seem to be "damning it with faint praise."

Little Hawk's post of 12 Mar 04 - 10:56 AM is right on the mark.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:28 PM

No, I don't have any praise for it whatsoever faint or otherwise. But at least I'm being realistic about what the game is. Fighting IS A PART OF THE GAME. It is expected, it can be planned and it is always encouraged. To compare a hockey fight to a fight in a venue where it is not the norm is just naive. Love it or hate it, it is what it is. There's enough bad things about hockey without making bad comparisons....

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:56 PM

Where does it say in the rulebook that fight is part of the game?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:10 AM

Are you really trying to tell me that you don't think that fighting is a part of the game? Here are some facts. When two players drop their gloves to fight, they can stand there for quite a long time without throwing a punch and the referees will wait along with the rest of the fans for the fight to start, a fight that they could prevent cause the players are skating in circles with their fists up, positioned to fight. Then the fight goes on unstopped until the players either stop or go down to the ice and then the referees step in. This happens almost every night somewhere in the NHL. Hockey teams hire players whose main skill is their willingness to fight and to be "an enforcer" on the ice. Players who fight have to "sit in the corner" for five minutes. Can you imagine if the rule was to have two guys sit in the corner after a fight in a bar? Or course not, but that's a bad comparison too, not as bad as the fencing one, but bad none the less.

The only reason the rule book has the penalties for fighting is so that the NHL can claim to be against the idea. Don't believe it, it's their bread and butter. Without it, they don't put people in the seats during the regular season. Fighting will never be listed in the rulebook as a sanctioned activity because the rulebook is politically correct, it's just not a good picture of reality.


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM

Frank, you're missing my point entirely.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:45 PM

Seems mutual...


Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Cluin
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 07:10 AM

Could be hockey isn't even a Canadian game at all and may have been invented in Virginia long ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 01:38 PM

I'll precede my comments by stating that I am a hockey fan, and I am Canadian...

I guess I fall somewhere between Frank and Don as far as the views on the state of the game, and what happened here. Is fighting a required part of the game? No. Is fighting an accepted (albiet penalized) part of the game? Yes. I have enjoyed the beauty of watching the broadcasts of the Olympics in 2002, where the best players in the world played a physical, non-fighting tournament -- it was some of the best hockey ever (the '72 CAN/USSR Summit Series DID have a lot of chippiness, some fighting, and atrocious stickwork, in my view). I would love it if the NHL and other professional leagues could play this wide-open style of hockey.

However, the game of hockey has always had an aggresive side that has included fighting. Does that make it right? Nope, not at all. It is part of the game of today though, and I believe the majority of people involved (owners, players, fans, broadcasters) do not mind that it still exists.

Moving to the cheap shot that got all of this going (performed by a Mr Todd Bertuzzi to the head of a Mr Steve Moore - yes, these guys have names) -- while there IS an agressive mentality in the game, this was NOT part of a fight. This could have occurred in basketball, in soccer/football/rugby, or in baseball (which has many more bench-clearing brawls per season than hockey can dream of). This was a blind-sided punch on an unsuspecting player. The officials immediately stepped in, threw the player out of the game, and he was suspended indefinitely pending a hearing. This took place within 48 hours, and the player was suspended for AT LEAST the remainder of the season including playoffs, and can only be reinstated after meeting with the commissioner of the NHL this summer, who will review all facts including the health of the injured player. He will lose over $500,000 in salary, along with the team being fined $250,000 and losing a premiere player for their playoff run.

Lastly, I will note that Mr Bertuzzi, while definitely an intimidating presence on the team, is not known as a goon, or fighter, or anything in that area -- it was an event that is hugely out of character, but unfortunately still ended up happening. This situation does not revolve around fighting in hockey - it would be comparable to a pitcher throwing a ball far inside to a batter, the batter reacting and rushing the mound, and then clocking the unsuspecting pitcher. I do NOT condone this type of a reaction to ANYTHING, and I would not be surprised if Mr Bertuzzi is charged by the police, but I do feel that this is not strictly about the presence (or absence) of fighting in hockey.

Looking forward to responses...
Brian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Pseudolus
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM

Brian,
   I totally agree with your entire post and that "this is not strictly about the presence (or absence) of fighting in hockey." I do think that the climate in the NHL is ripe for these types of things to happen and that fighting and the lack or real punishment for fighting are in part responsible for that climate.

   I also agree with you about Bertuzzi. I don't believe for a minute that his intent was to injure as severly as a broken neck. I suspect that his intent was to send a hard message and it backfired. I say that because of how it actually happened. As I said before, Moore turns his head and body into the punch at the last minute very much increasing the impact of the punch. If that doesn't happen, he probably doesn't get knocked out, therefore he probably doesn't hit the ice head first, therefore he doesn't break his neck and this thread doesn't even exist. So does that excuse Bertuzzi? Of course not. Does that make the whole thing Moore's fault? Of course not. It's a tragedy that happened in a sport that allows for the possibility of such tragedies in every game.

   And I guess that's my whole point. Situations like the Bertuzzi/Moore thing happen all the time in hockey, they just don't end up with a broken neck. We see them on sports center cause they want us to tune in and see the fight again, but other than that, no one pays attention. When someone gets a serious injury, all of a sudden the player who dealt the punch is villified and should be thrown in jail. It can't be assault for Bertuzzi and not for any other player who has gone on the attack in a hockey game. the sport allows for a good hard (sometimes blind-sided) check but if the player that gets checked has a career ending concussion, no one is willing to charge the player with a crime. Fighting is accepted and part of the game (with a five minute price tag) and should be treated no differently.

   Finally, Don, I hope there are no hard feelings with this discussion. I enjoy the back and forth of a heated debate and for the record, I do respect your opinions, the ones I agree with AND the ones I don't! Sometimes those feelings don't come through in type.

Take Care,
Frank

P.S. Playoff hockey, now THERE'S an opportunity to see some fun hockey. Very few fights, if any.


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 03:35 PM

Right, Frank! I would say ToulouseCruise knitted it up very neatly. No hard feelings at all. A good spirited exchange of opinions can be an educational experience.

Have a good one,
Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:02 PM

tod bertuzzi later apologized on tv, but only said 'Im sorry for what happened' not sorry for what I did.

those who believe fighting is or ought to be an acceptable part of hockey - what would you say if a fan jumped on the ice and punched someone as bertuzzi did, resulting in injuries - do you think thered be the same response? or would he get arrested and charged with assault?


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Subject: RE: BS: Hockey :BS
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

Petr,

I was starting to type the words, "But it's not the same as...", and then took a pause -- maybe it IS the same? That is a really tough call, you know. You could say that a player understands the inherent risk of being in the game, and that the fan in this case would be "trespassing" (for lack of a better word) and should not be there in the first place. You've left me stumped on that one, and I don't like it a bit, heh.

As far as the apology goes though, I do believe that he meant that he was sorry for what he did -- he directly apologized in that statement to Steve Moore and was not reading from any cue cards. I am sure the tears he shed were real, and not for himself, but for the man he injured. He also has attempted to meet Mr Moore face-to-face since the incident to apologize in person, but (I believe at the request of the family) he has not been permitted to.

Brian.


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