BS: Costa Terror

Subject: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:21 PM

Just seen the mangled bodies of men ,women,and children,in the Madrid train bombing.   I was sickened by the awful sights.
A few minutes later I was sickened again, by the disgusting sight of Prime minister Blair and the Spanish Premier mouthing platitudes and crying crocodile tears.
The bloody fools, didnt they hear all those millions of voices telling them to think again before the war?
Think again, before engaging in a "war on terror" that can never be won by force.
Aye Tony ,Im bloody glad I dont have your head on my shoulders when I bed down tonight....Sweet dreams mate!!

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:28 PM

It is being discussed here, but nobody seems to care...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 04:52 PM

Thanks Guest...Iv just read the other thread , and everybody seems more interested in making jokes, than discussing the horrors of Madrid and London!!!....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

Well, considering that the title of that other thread is "Bush Makes Another Blunder", what do you expect. Are contibutors to that thread supposed to reflect on the Madrid bombings or expound on Bush's ineptitude? If you really want a serious discussion of the bombings, why don't you star a thread with a clear no-nonsense title like "Madrid Bombings"? You won't get a single joking response.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:38 PM

Point taken Bruce...I just thought that when the cause of Bushes'blunder became apparent,the Mudcatters would have settled down to contemplate so many deaths....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:44 PM

Ake - what on earth are you on? I picked up the news a couple of hours ago. Yes, it's horrible in the extreme. Words can't convey.

But what is this link between today's bombs & the Iraq war? At the moment, all the reports indicate that the perpetrators are ETA, Basque separatists, & nothing to do with the Iraqi/ME situation.

I don't like Blair & I'll vote against him in the next GE. It's a bit much to draw a link between him & today's events, however!

R

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:49 PM

I haven't see or heard any news today. How about a link to the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:51 PM

Raedwolf ..."They would say that,wouldnt they?"
The last thing the Western governments want is a large scale attack by Islamic fundamentalists in Europe. So, blame somebody else as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:53 PM

As it was me who started the thread, I was sort of hoping Mudcatters would reflect on the seriousness of the subject matter, and Bush's failure to make even a simple message of condolence sound heartfelt.

One can't predict the direction of a thread once it starts; a good thread is always determined by the quality of the posts to it.

Maybe 3/11 isn't as important as 9/11 in some people's eyes, though I did try to make a few posts to let those reading the thread the singularity of this attack, but yes, you're right, people concentrated more on the 'humourous' side of it, rather than the insult to injury.

Guess there are only a few rocket scientists here...

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 05:58 PM

Thank you for that observation Bruce. And thanks for acknowledging it akenaton. I have been contemplating Madrid all day. I will be contemplating it for a long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:00 PM

First, until I read this thread I was unaware that there had been a terrorits action in Spain. Second, had I been aware, I would have changed some of what I said on the other thread. Third, I am a little pissed off right now so I will shut up.

I was able to find stuff on the events in spain by googling

madrid, bombing, march 11, 2004

I can't find anything to turn into a link. I'll look more.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:04 PM

Yes, Bruce M. The same was true for me at the time I posted jokes as well.

So how many rocket scientists are there here I wonder, Jim? You, that makes one. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:06 PM

"At the moment, all the reports indicate that the perpetrators are ETA, Basque separatists, & nothing to do with the Iraqi/ME situation."
Not true Raedwulf. Al Qud (Arab newspaper) have a letter from Al Queada claiming they hit 'the Crusader' (or rhetoric to that effect). With Spain's election coming up on Sunday, and Aznar's retirement from poltical life, it seemed like a golden opportunity to slam ETA on the eve of the vote. If that turns out to be true, then, one could accuse the Spanish Government of blatant opportunism
The fact that Al Quaeda has now been identified as the perpertrator, could well change the direction of the vote on Sunday.

Just type in 'Madrid Bombings' into your favourite search engine, brucie, the wires are full of the story.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Close enough, heric... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Over 170 Die in Bombings in Madrid, Spain
In the Spanish capital of Madrid, more than 170 people were killed today after a series of bombs attacks at three train stations during morning rush hour. At least 500 people were also wounded The Spanish government has blamed the Basque separatist group ETA for the attacks but no group has taken responsibility. ETA -- whose initials stand for Basque Homeland and Freedom -- have fought for independence for the Basque region of northeastern Spain for decades. If the bombing was the work of the ETA it marks by far the group's largest attack. In 1987 a bombing at a supermarket in the Basque country killed 21 people. But a prominent Basque party leader that has been linked to ETA said the group was not behind the attacks. He suggested the "Arab resistance" may have carried out the attacks. The Basque official noted that ETA usually phones in warnings. There were no warnings before today's attack. The bombings came three days before Spain's elections on Sunday. The country's political parties have suspended campaign for the elections. A government spokesperson described the bombings as an attack on Spanish democracy. The government has also declared three days of mourning. The Washington Post reports the attacks marks one of the largest terror attacks in Europe since the end of World War II.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Thanks, Jim. I found the above on the net somewhere. I have friends in Spain, and had I know about this, I would not have posted as I did to the other thread. However, I can do jack about that now. BM

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM

No problem for me, brucie; I in turn was only offering my opinion on the direction of it, in response to Bruce's comments.

I wouldn't have mentioned it, otherwise.

But here we are discussing thread headers.....

Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:17 PM

Brucie... You are one of the last people that I would accuse of insensitivity. Knowing you quite well from PMs,I think of you as a sincere and most caring individual.
One of your many friends ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:28 PM

Oh, Ake, I'm not pissed at anyone here. I'm pissed at myself. I haven't seen a paper or heard a newsbroadcast, and no one where I teach said a word.I hope you're doing well, my friend. Not to worry. Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

it is 911 days since 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

And this is 3/11...

Is all of this directly proportional to 666, I wonder?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM

.... although, not to put too fine a point on it, I did post the news of the bomb attacks a good 20 minutes before the jokes started flying....

Apparently one train was 2 mins late, and had it reached it's destination on time, it would have been in a large railway station when it exploded, with even greater loss of life, probably.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

It's true that you did and Bruce M. and I missed it.

For fine points, I believe it has been 912 days since the WTC. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:24 PM

European news bulletins, including the BBC, has it as 911 days...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:29 PM

There's more -- the letter from al Qaeda tells the Muslim brotherhood to take heart, as they are 90% ready to strike again at the US. This time their attack is known as the "Winds of Black Death." Scary stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:31 PM

That sounds chemical/biological to me..

Madrid was known as 'Operation Death Trains'

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:33 PM

Time to sell those shares brothers ....and head for the hills.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

As far as i know, there is no leap year extra day in the islamic calendar, this may account for the discrepancy in 911 and 912 days.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

BBC link Click 'Ere

Interestingly, and in the Mudcat context, it would appear that most posts so far are to rush into judgement and condemn Bush/Blair/The Spanish government.

Perhaps you should condemn the perpertrators ! Unless, of course, this is politically unfashionable.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:39 PM

Gareth..Bush and Blair were well warned by the anti -war lobby ,that their proposed action would result in more ,not less terrorism.
I think you know very well what was meant by previous posts,and are trying to "muddy" the waters.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

Someone is going to scream at us for discussing this. But I think it is a matter of counting September 11, 2001 as "one" instead of "zero," as would be proper in my estimation. Perhaps time zones could affect it, but I don't think so. (First plane hit aprrox 9:15 a.m. EST; First bomb today was 7:39 a.m in Madrid, six hours ahead of New York?) But from September 11, 2001 to March 11, 2004, all things equal, is 912 days by my calculator.

Please don't think I mean to trivialize this tragedy a second time. Please. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:44 PM

I think we are already doing that Gareth....

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:48 PM

I for one don't think that, anyway heric, but it still is a little sinister, all the same....

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:03 AM

Ake, do you believe that that the people who attacked the WTC, Embassies all over, then the WTC again, would then have stopped had not Bush and Blair decided to fight back.
Would they have said," OK now they have learned their lesson, back to peace and compromise." ?
They are at war with us because ot their racial hatred and envy of us. They will not stop of their own volition.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Keith A
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:05 AM

Sorry, that was me

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:00 AM

Thoughts should be with the victims and their families.

'The radius of the bomb was twelve inches
And the radius of it's effective force seven yards
Containing four dead and eleven wounded.
And around those, in a wider circle
Of pain and time, are scattered two hospitals
And one graveyard. But the young woman,
Buried in the place she came from,
Over a hundred kilometers from here,
Widens the circle quite a bit,
And the lonely man mourning her death
In the provinces of a Mediteranean land,
Includes the whole world in a circle.
And I shall omit the scream of orphans
That reaches God's throne
And way beyond, and widens the circle
To no end and no God.'

From Yehuda Amichai's 'Time'

Spain like other European countries has had it's fair share of horrors from its home grown terrorists. This latest seems to have the hallmarks of teamwork between different terrorist networks in its timing and precision. A most depressing prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:18 AM

Absolutely horrific and totally pointless, the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve. Another classic example, irrespective of what "organisation" was responsible, of a morally bankrupt group mandated by none, lashing out for no purpose.

As to the who? ETA still remains firmly in the frame. An interview on CNN this morning put it quite well. The "islamic" connection are the same crowd that claimed responsibility for the power outages in the US and Canada last year. Forensic examination of the van found yesterday and traces of the explosives used link this to explosives stolen by ETA in France three years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:44 AM

Part of The Telegraph's coverage can be found Here
However, the print edition this morning quotes (Page 1) "Shortly before, police found detonators and an Arabic-language tape with Koranic verses in a stolen van in the Madrid suburb where it was believed the bombs had been planted"

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

Talk about "racial hatred " in the context of Islam is misleading. Including Islamic fundamentalism. It's not about race, it's about culture and religion, and about different ideas about the direction the world should take.

It's still pretty unclear, and you can't trust anyone in this kind of thing - after all it's easy enough to leave a few Arabic language tapes around, or plant them - but I'd put my money on this being some kind of Al Qaeda operation rather than ETA.

And I feel pretty cynical about the haste with which the Spanish government tried to jump to picking out ETA as the culprits. The evidence about the "type of explosive" needs to be examined by some technical experts without an agenda, before it can be trusted.

"...the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve." But, if it was Al Qaeda, that would be the very objective. I would suggest that, in the mindset of the people responsible, "stiffening the resolve" would seen as a term for the kind of response likely to lead to bad mistakes being made, that in the longer run will undermine the ability of the system to survive. They may be wrong, but they aren't playing for a settlement and a negotiated end to the bloodshed.

That's where they differ from organisations like ETA or the IRA, or Saddam in his day. Those kind of distinctions matter. Know your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: barrygeo
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:41 AM

What a disaster.

The lesson - it is not possible to defeat terrorism with a "war on terrorism" because the act of war always acts as a recruitment message and streghtens the organisation you are trying to defeat.

The only solution is to address the underlying problem whether real or perceived. Example in N.Ireland the IRA was never defeated but they lost support once a peaceful and fair option was found. It will be difficult but it will have to be addressed in the Basque region and in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 12:40 PM

Some good points there MGOH:

I would agree that it is not about race it is about culture and religion, and it must be from within the ranks of those who ascribe to that culture and religion that the fundamentalists have to be disuaded from their current activities. I don't think that there is any doubt about the direction of the fundamentalists, "different ideas about the direction the world should take" - backwards and nobody is going to follow, or support that course, the vast majority of the followers of Islam included.

The Arabic religious tapes found in the van could signify something, or absolutely nothing - it's early days yet. As to the "haste" with which the Spanish Authorities came out and said that this attack was probably the work of ETA - well can't say as I would blame them for making that connection. By the bye, Kevin, you tend to feel pretty cynical period, for you it appears to be a natural condition. With regard to the forensics, I would imagine at the moment the only agenda the technical experts have is to determine the what, who, when and how. I don't think anything else is on their minds and I do not believe that they are being pushed in any particular direction politically or otherwise.

If this was perpetrated by ETA - they will have less support in the Basque region today than they had before the attacks, people who were prepared to turn a blind eye and keep quiet previously, will be less inclined to do so now. If those who did carry out the attack thought they were under pressure before, they will now be experiencing far greater activity on the part of the French and Spanish authorities. If this was an Al-Qaeda, or a like-minded fundamentalist group's, operation, it will serve to focus the minds of police, customs, immigration and intelligence services. It will increase the awareness of the general population. That is what I meant by saying, "...the only thing it succeeds in doing is stiffening resolve." If Al-Qaeda's aim is to bring down "western civilisation" then they are in for a bitter disappointment, the survivability of our system Kevin is not in question, they can do nothing to destroy it, but they can kill, maim and ruin a great number of innocent people in their efforts.

Your statement: "They may be wrong, but they aren't playing for a settlement and a negotiated end to the bloodshed."

There is no "may be" about it - they are 100% wrong. Their stance and activities can in no way be justified and have, rightly, been universally condemned. The latter part I am in complete agreement with you on - there is no settlement to be reached with Al-Qaeda, or like-minded groups, there is no negotiation. To counter their efforts the law enforcement and intelligence agencies of the world do have to go onto a "war" footing, they do have to co-operate and exchange information to an extent that has been hitherto unprecedented - That is the "war on terrorism".

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:34 PM

I condemn ALL of those involved, those who set the bombs in particular. Killing does little but perpetuate the violence.

What if every faction someday sat down and hammered out solutions to all of the problems? What would the leaders do when their following and power was gone?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:42 PM

I'm sorry to be a nit picker but costa means coast, and Madrid is near the centre of Spain, and has no coasts.
Apart from all that, I don't think that ETA was the perpetrator of this particular outrage. I hold no brief for them, but the modus operandi seems out of character. However I wish to express my sympathy for the innocent people who died in this cowardly attack.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

Teribus ...Could you please explain the statement ,"the survivability of our system is not in doubt", as I believe the opposite to be the case,and have set out my reasons for my beliefs in numerous other threads.
In my opinion the end of our system is a matter of," when do they want to do it.
Economic terrorism is so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:05 PM

Deepest sympathy to my many Spanish friends and the country I would one day hope to retire to.

ETA are denying they are the perpetrators (7.00pm UK time) and I am inclined to believe them. It would gain Aznar votes if it was ETA, lose them if it was Al Queda.

Regards,

Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:10 PM

John ...I could have a stab at justifying my choice of name for this thread ,but I cant be arsed,as Im pissed off by the people who cant see the wood for the trees,and still think terrorism can be beaten by force.
If the might of the British military couldnt beat a few " bog trotters",how can anyone defeat thousands of dedicated fundamentalists.
The only hope is for the West to address all the obvious wrongs which they have perpetrated in the Middle East.
Show the Muslims that we dont want to destroy their historic culture.
There might still be a glimmer of hope ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:23 PM

By the bye, Kevin, you tend to feel pretty cynical period, for you it appears to be a natural condition. I've often enough being accused of being naive.

The same is true of you, friend Teribus - at times I would suggest that you also could be variously described as either cynical or naive. The only way one can avoid such accusations is to confine yourself to discussing things with people with whom agree about most things.

Actually in saying "cynical" in my last post I used the wrong word. "Scepticism" is very often justified, "cynicism" is rarely, if ever, appropriate. However the two words do tend to be used interchangeably, and it's too easy to slip into using the wrong one.

"The survivability of our system is not in doubt" - I suppose it depends what you mean by "our system". Already a lot of aspects of our system that seem pretty basic and pretty important have been badly dented. The question is not whether "our system" has "surviveability" but whether it will actually survive, and in what form. In a sense I'd say "systems" never really survive longterm, they change into other systems, which can sometimes be better and sometimes worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

I don't know whether it was ETA, al Qaida, or someone else altogether. But the suggestion that we can end terrorist attacks like this by "addressing all the historic wrongs perpetrated in the Middle East," or by "showing Muslims that we don't want to destroy their historic culture" is ludicrous. There are billions of people in the world who feel they have been wronged, and I will admit a lot of them have a damn good reason to feel that way. Add in "historic wrongs," and you've pretty much described everyone on the planet.

We can't appease away the terrorist threat, any more than we were able to appease away the Nazi threat in the last century. We need to continue to promote peace and justice in the world, try to right the wrongs that we're able to right, and keep groping towards a more perfect world, while acknowledging that we don't have all the answers and our efforts will invariably fall short of perfection. But when the bastards start blowing up innocent people by the hundreds, platitudes and self-examination will only take you so far; you have to shoot back, and pray that the good guys win.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:36 PM

Whistle stop ...Iv got a lot of sympathy with your arguement,and I too hate the idea of innocent people being murdered,but todays situation is very different from anything that we have encountered in the past. Now might is no longer sure to triumph,a few dedicated people who do not fear death, have the means to bring down a mighty nation.
Im afraid appeasment is all thats left ,before humanity meets a well deserverd oblivion...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:44 PM

Akenaton: Blaming Bush for the tragedy in Spain is quite a reach. When is it going to sink in to folks like you, that Terrorists are enemies of us all? Bush and his counterparts are combating a enemy that is like none other faced before. The only way to defeat them is to destroy them before they destroy us.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 03:56 PM

Bad things don't just happen, there are reasons they happen. Why do people so often talk as if there was soemthing evasive and irrelevant about trying to identify some of those and see what can be done to reduce the dangers?

"How can you go on about polluted water supplies when we are trying to fight a cholera epidemic and people are dying?..."

Addressing the root causes of violence isn't something that can be put on the back burner until violence stops, because that means it will never stop in the forseeable future. And addressing those root causes isn't the same as "giving in to terror".

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:06 PM

I'm a little confused. Keith A said, "They are at war with us because ot their racial hatred and envy of us. They will not stop of their own volition." Others then added that it wasn't racial as much as cultural.

If that is the case, why did the initial attack occur in the US, and why did the purported letter from al Qaeda in the Spanish attack refer to Spain as an ally and supporter of the US?

I really think it comes back to the US, time and time again, for its foreign policies, particularly in the middle east.

If it was simply racial or cultural, other white Christian countries would be under terrorist attack as well.

Opinions?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM

Doug ...I never see enemies,just sad ,demented people gnawing at themselves like rats in a cage, on both sides of this particular divide.
How can we destroy an "enemy" that we cant see or hear,and who sees death as a passport to eternal bliss. These people may be deranged in much the same way as fundamentalist Christians,but we sould realise that they are the most dangerous threat to Western Society that we have so far encountered.
Knee jerk sloganising will not suffice in this case...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:11 PM

I note that in the statement that's ostensibly just come from the "Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades/al-Qaeda", claiming responsibility for the atrocity it refers to Spain as "one of the pillars of the crusader alliance".

I rememember when Bush came out with that throway remark way back about the alliance against Al Qaida being "a crusade", people who kicked up a fuss about it were accused of over-reacting, when they said this was playing into the hands of the Islamic extremists, and would be a factor contributing to bringing about further deaths. (I checked back, via the magic Mudcat Forum search facility, on the word "crusade", and I see that Doug called it "nitpicking" when I expressed worry about Bush using the word in this context.)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 05:33 PM

Addressing the root causes of violence isn't something that can be put on the back burner until violence stops, because that means it will never stop in the forseeable future.

As we've seen for years in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, and here in America since 9/11, the term "root causes" is generally used as a code for blaming the victims of terrorism. That is to say, it's not the terrorists fault that they killed a bunch of teenagers eating pizza in a Jerusalem cafe, or that stock broker's secretary on the 103rd floor of the WTC. It's the "root causes" that are to blame. It's the oppression and the poverty.

As if 300-millionaires like Arafat, or billionaires like Bin Laden, don't have any other options.

I would also suggest that blaming "root causes" is an incredible insult to the billions of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Basques, Irish, etc. who do not choose to be terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:23 PM

That is a brilliant statement, GUEST C-watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 06:44 PM

Remarkable insight...

If people do sometimes use words like "root cause" as a way of avoiding identifying root causes, that's a pity, but it doesn't alter the fact that it's important to work at identifying these kinds of contributory factors.

Blaming human wickedness, and stopping at that isn't good enough.

Something like Nazism, for example, didn't just come out of nowhere - it had roots in all kinds of things, including the imposition of punitive reparations on Germany. In the aftermath of the Second World War, it was very fortunate that there were people around who were capable of thinking in terms of those kinds of factors, who didn't just stop at seeing Nazism merely as a matter of wickedness, and who were able to make sure that some of these same mistakes were not repeated. (And it's as well to remember that there were people around who denounced that kind of thinking as somehow betraying the victims of Nazism.)

And again, it was important that people recognised in the widespread record of anti-semitism in various countries, including those which fought against Hitler, one of the seeds of Nazism.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 07:37 PM

Nice to see that some thought is now being given to the Victims.

No I am not here to muddy the waters (AKE), neither am I concrned with the inability to the might of the British Army to defeat a "handfull of 'Bogtrotters'"

There is no doubt that if it was a question of reducing Republican Terrorism to minor level the Army could do it. The cost would have been officialy sanctioned counter terrorism, and Ethnic cleansing - Something I do not agree with.

But a question I will put.

If a "freedom fighting" organisation had made the demand "EXTERMINATE ALL XXXX" in the US of A, or 911 would be repeated, tell me which side would you have been on ?

Defend or Agree ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 08:19 PM

The kind of crush-them-at-all-costs approach envisaged by Gareth there - and repudiated by him as well - would almost certainly have failed in practice, for a number of reasons, for example it would undoubtedly have resulted in a massive wave of effective support for the IRA among members of the Irish diaspora in such places as England and the USA, including many whose natural attitude would have been one of being very critical of and suspicious of the IRA. To adapt the classic words it would have been worse than a crime, it would have been a mistake".

That is the constant danger in this kind of situation. The countermeasures have the effect of alienating the very people you want on side. And it appears clear that one of the aims of terrorist activities, both in the nationalist context, but even more in the international variety, is to bring about just that kind of reaction.

The most effective defence against further atrocities has to be constant undramatic vigilance. Any idea that there could be a grand victory by the use of massive force against some identifiable target is just a dream. There seems no reason to think that the Afghan war
did anything but disperse the danger more widely, not dispel it. There seems every reason to believe that the Iraq war has strengthened Al Qaida rather than weakened it.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 09:04 PM

Fact is, terrorist activities are impossible to defend against. They need innocent people to be victims. Otherwise, it's not terrorism. Actions against innocents will cause nations to do exactly what the USA has done. Maybe that was the goal.

Attacking a military installation is not an act of terrorism. The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize civilian populations. We have always held it to be 'understood' that civilians are sacrosanct in times of war. Not so, but we've generally thought it to be so. Warfare has changed, because it is no longer possible for the weak to fight 'fairly'. Therefore, the strategy changes and the tactics change as a result. I do not like attacks on innocents, and that is why I could never be a terrorist. But, it seems that people can put ideology before humanity. Welcome to the brave new world.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Mar 04 - 11:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM

There are some contributors here who are assuming [with some justification, unfortunately] that many people have come to accept the oft-repeated lie as in fact, truth; that the invasion of Iraq was a necessary action in the "war on terrorism". It was a lie then, it is a lie now. That there is al Quaida involvement in Iraq is undeniable now; that there was al Quaida invlovemnet in Iraq prior to the attack was a lie then, and is is still a lie. The fact of alQuaida operating there NOW was forecast by almost every thinking person who did not blindly support the Bush-Blair folly. The dread box has been opened; there will be many more bloody incidents ere it even looks like closing. And blame for the suffering of thousands of innocents can be shared by BOTH sides.
Bush Blair bin Laden and all the subsidiary parasites---it would be a wonderful thing to be able to bring a plague on all their houses. We have little power; we can only wish.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 12:10 AM

And, meanwhile the kids keep dying...all of them on all the sides...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Ed.
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 01:32 AM

We have little power; we can only wish

Which is exactly what those who planted the bombs were thinking, except that they chose to stop wishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Barry Finn
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:43 AM

George Washington was a terrorist as well as William Wallace & Stonewall Jackson & Gen Sherman. Some even claimed Nelson Mandela as a treat & an enemy to the South African government. History constantly shows that the terrorist is on the losing end & doesn't have their God on their side as they're figurehead. The past week or so is the first time I've heard mention of "root causes". For a year no one has given attention to why terrorism exist. In past posts I've mentioned plenty about treating the causes & not the symptoms. The US does not give a damn about the peoples of the mid east. Bush couldn't find his way past a barroom door never mind create or even read a road map. I truthfully think that the US wants complete control of the whole region & the rest of the matter is just smoke being blown up our asses. The US has been doing their best to block any constructive or positive move made by all countries of the area for years except for Israel. Over there they can't under stand why we'll go after Saddam or Iran for supposed possession of WMD when we turn a blind eye to Israel. Were the Indians, the Irish or the Scottish at blame for how the English colonized where they weren't welcome. Were the Native Americans the enemy because we wanted their land & resources that we knew we could take by any means necessary. There's more to terrorism than bombs, economic sanctions, buying off the little countries to force there hands into decisions that they otherwise wouldn't have chosen, the backing & putting in place puppet regimes & the deposing of governments that are not operating in our best interests. As far as the countries of the Middle East hating us, duh. It's not a racial, cultural or a religious hatred of us. Straight out, we're the biggest bully in the schoolyard & now were catching hell for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM

Palestinian, Irish, and Basque terrorism had/has a "root cause" amenable to negotiation and compromise.
The root cause of Islamic terrorism seems to be that the culture they despise is far more prosperous, and creative in science, culture, art,literature, and many other areas. They choose to blame their poverty and backwardness on us rather than corrupt governments, restricted, dogma ridden education and squandering of oil wealth.

Attacking Iraq did not make them step up their attacks. They were on an upward course anyway.

Encouraging an enlightened government to succeed in a major mid east state would be an attack on the root cause. This is what we are doing in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:00 AM

Boab:

Prior to the Iraq invasion there was a training camp in minority Iraq which, according to some reports, was used by al Qaida. I don't know the truth of the matter, however.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM

Analysis of the situation in the world from the standard left-liberal/leave-Saddam-alone position seems to assume that there was no Al Quaida/fundamentlist terrorist presence in Iraq, prior to the recent way. Well if you believe that, I'm afraid you are very very foolish, and if say it but dont believe it(in order to make a political point) you are being a little bit dishonest as well as foolish.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:20 AM

Greg:

I don't know anyone who says Saddam should have been left alone.

Are you saying there was Al Qaida influence in Iraq? What connections do you know about?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM

The Middle East Research insitute in this report concludes that the Al Qaida claim is not genuine (for the Madrid explosions), and explains why they conclude this.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

Just heardthat 5 Moslems have vbeen arrested for Madrid bombing
Maybe it was the IRA after all....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM

Prior to the Iraq invasion there was a training camp in minority Iraq which, according to some reports, was used by al Qaida.

This was in a part of Iraq which was outside the control of Baghdad, because it was in between the Kurdish enclave and the Iranian border. That meant Saddam couldn't get at them - with some justice he regarded Islamic fundamentalism as a deadly danger to his regime. Nor could the Iranians, where the Al Qaida version of Islam is also very much out of favour.

...........................

The reasons given in that link Amos gave for not regarding that claim by "the Abu Hafs Al-Masri Brigades" as being an authentic Al Qaida document don't seem to add up to much. They seem to be based on the assumption that "Al Qaida" means a centralised organisation with a fixed "house-style" when it comes to press releases and such. That seems a very problematic assumption indeed. It seems only too likely that what is involved is a very decentralised organisation, with cells and groups operating relatively autonomously, and involving people with a relatively wide range of backgrounds, reflected in these kinds of differences in terminology.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

I agree fully with your very informative message Mcgrath.
Perhaps after reading it ,the penny will start to drop with some Mudcats.
This situation, is to my mind,even more dangerous than the "balance of fear" scenario during the "Cold War, and a solution a hundred times more difficult to find.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM

They do elect a new government tomorrow in Spain. All politicians there look at it with an eye to the elections.
The ETA is responsible: More votes for the government
Al Qaeda is responsible: More votes for the opposition

That the police has arrested/questioned three people from Morocco and two Spanish of Indian descent must have been very premature from the point of view of the government.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 06:54 PM

Thanks, Kevin, as always.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 03:56 AM

Spanish Government at last beginning to admit "Moslem fundamentalist influence" in Madrid bombings.
Isn't it sickening to watch Bush ,Blair and their handful of allies squirm, when confronted by the results of their stupidity.
Once again the innocents are paying the price of politicians duplicity.
Its time you Mudcats who supported the mad war had the guts to say you were wrong.If you dont ,your not worthy of respect from the decent folk who post here ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:58 AM

Ake - I have no difficulty in admitting I am wrong, when I am wrong.

I still believe the the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq was a neccessary act. 911 and other attempts at mass murder well predate military action.

Incidently, and I picked up references to it in both the "Observer" & the "Telegraph" this morning, there seems to be a mention of "Al-Quaida" demannds for the return of Andulucia to a Moslem State,

I have not had the time to cross reference this, has any other catter spotted this, is this possible demand real ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:26 AM

Insofar as there are justifications for the war on Afghanistan and Iraq, these have to be based on the fact that undoubtedly the regimes in power in these countries were horrible regimes, which is undoubtedly true and on the hope that they will be better places to live in, which is still undetermined.

But the hope that somehow these wars may have reduced the danger of international terrorist atrocities - that seems very slim indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:40 PM

So McGrath, is your point that the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, which you agree were justified, shouldn't have been undertaken because of the likelihood of increased terrorist activity as a result? If Britain had adopted that kind of policy in 1939 the whole of Europe (and perhaps far further afield) would have been under German rule now. And what of the oppressed populace of those two countries, should they have been abandoned to their fate? Surely it's the responsibility of the right-thinking man to defend his neighbour, even if it places him in some danger too?

Sorry if I've misunderstood you - I'll stand a kicking without complaint if I did!

Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:40 PM

No, I'm not talking about refraining from trying to act effectively against terrorism for fear of reprisals. I'm talking about refraining from doing things which look might like acting against them, but which actually serve to strengthen them.

My point was that invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq didn't achieve anything significant to stop terrorism. If these wars are to be justified this can only be done on other grounds, to do with replacing terrible regimes by regimes that it is at least hoped might be better. Part of the cost of these wars has probably been that they have made it a lot easier for the terrorists to operate.

There is no evidence whatsoever, so far as I am aware, of anyone from Afghanistan or Iraq being involved in September 11th or the other related atrocities.

Afghanistan under the Taliban did provide a sanctuary for a number of Arabs and other supporters of Bin Laden, and training facilities of a kind, though there is precious little evidence of there being any direct involvement in actually carrying out September 11 or the other bombings. The role of Bin Laden and those around him appear to have been far more a matter of ideological encouragement and motivation rather than direct command.

That's an important role, but it seems pretty clear that the idea that it is the kind of organisation that can be destroyed by wiping out its headquarters or disposing of its leadership is to misunderstand what is involved.

As for Iraq - the only part Bin Laden's followers had to play in Saddam's time was as enemies of the regime. In post-Saddam Iraq it is in a far better position to organise, recruit, and carry out killing operations.

Trying to draw analogies with Nazi Germany is looking in the wrong direction. It's a completely different type of enemy, and a completely different type of conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:54 PM

Johnny.....I think you'll find that you've misunderstood McGrath and the current situation regarding terrorism..So you should be given two kickin's, one by McGrath and one by me!!    but as were both too old and frail,an apology will suffice.
The situation today should not be confused with the situation in 1939.
Terror ism is now a much more potent threat than the Nazi's ever were.   A few people can wreck havoc on our economy,and it is almost impossible to stop them. A good start would be for the politicians to start telling the people the truth and stop this stupid posturing,"the war on terror", "Defeating terrorism"   ect.
In reality, terrorism almost always achieves its objectives.
It will be a long haul and survival is far from assured, but the only way for the West is to undermine the terrorists in their heartlands,and this would mean a complete change in Western policy towards the Middle East,beginning with a fair settlement for the Palistinians,and then assuring the Moslem people that Global Capitalism would not be given free reign to devour their culture...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:56 PM

Sorry McGrath,I didn't realise you had posted....Hope you dont mind me speaking for you...Best Wishes Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:31 AM

In answer to your question Akenaton, I will stand by my statement "the survivability of our system is not in doubt". You believe the opposite to be the case, the reasons for your belief in that viewpiont have not really been all that convincing.

As to it being a matter of, "when do they want to do it", I believe that it was tried, in quite a concerted effort in 1973, and that failed completely. If economic terrorism is so easy, why hasn't it been more effective?. Aircraft flying into skyscrapers, bombs being detonated in crowded commuter trains or at packed religious festivals, do not contribute to the advancement of mankind one jot. They do not provide the answers to any of the problems that beset our planet, mainly because the aim of those carrying out those attacks is regression, and stagnation, they may attempt it, but they will not halt progress. They will not eliminate the natural desire of populations, and the societies in which they live, to improve their lot. People throughout the world, do not buy less, or buy differently as a result of these attacks, ways of life do not change dramatically - life goes on pretty much as it did before.

My statement regarding the survivability of our system, is based on the fact that our system is one that depends on evolution and change. Our system is one based on embracing the new and employing the best talents irrespective of nationality, race, religion or gender. Our system is one based on the right to challenge whatever establishment happens to be in place and whatever established dogma happens to be in place at any given time. None of the above can be said to apply to the religious fundamentalism that guides the terrorists of whom you seem to be so much in awe.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:37 AM

So if it evolves and changes is it the same system? Are we the same creature as our evolutionary ancestors?

"Our system is one based on embracing the new and employing the best talents irrespective of nationality, race, religion or gender." That is a pretty recent development in our culture. You couldn't really have said that about us a couple of generations ago, and there are still many elements which within our culture where this is not true tday. Whatever "our" actually means in that sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:43 AM

McGrath and Ake - I said I would take the kicking without complaint and I understand now where you're coming from.

Ake - at the risk of offending you again (and without meaning to) I'd suggest that your proposition that terrorism poses a far greater threat to us than the Nazis did in WW2 is an outrageous insult to the memory of 6 million Jews, Gypsies and other minorities who died in their death-camps, and two million-plus civilians who died IN THE UK as a result of their NIGHTLY (not just once or twice every couple of years) bombing attacks on our towns and cities. Would I be correct in assuming that you're a resident of North America?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:47 AM

And I didn't even mention the millions of Poles, Ukranians, Russians, French, Belgians, Dutch, Americans, Canadians, Australians.........need I go on?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

"So if it evolves and changes is it the same system? Are we the same creature as our evolutionary ancestors?"

Kevin - What particular orange do you want to compare to what particular apple?

A couple of generations, Kevin? Our particular system of government and economy/economic principles that fuel it, have been basically the same for centuries - they have evolved, there have been changes inside the basic framework - that's progress and our society in general welcomes it as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM

To say that as recently as much of the last century our society was "employing the best talents irrespective of nationality, race, religion or gender" you'd really have to stretch the truth to breaking point. If you go further back than that...

Yes, "our system" has roots which go back hundreds, even thousands of years, and you can find pointers towards that kind of things way back in history, along with pointers towards quite other things.

But you don't need to go back far at all to find a culture where women were very restricted in all kinds of ways, even required to wear veils in public, when married woemn had no property rights whatsoever, when black people were repressed or even enslaved, people were excluded from jobs on the basis of their religion.

And our flexible system doesn't always change for the better - it didn't take long for Germany to descend from a kind of relatvely liberal capitalism into what was probably the most evil society that this planet has known.

My point being, we can't afford to feel safe and smug about ourselves. We are quite capable of destroying ourselves, and of destroying what is good about ourselves. We nearly did in the last century.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:33 AM

Come on Kevin, stop putting words into my mouth - go back and read what I actually was saying.

In that exercise, please state anywhere where I said that during that process of evolution of our society that we always got it right, and that we were infallable.

Your example - "it didn't take long for Germany to descend from a kind of relatvely liberal capitalism into what was probably the most evil society that this planet has known." - is a poor one.

As the Germany created under Bismark was rather authoritarian, I take it that you are referring to the Weimar Republic. No Kevin, it didn't take long for Germany to make that descent and the circumstances under which that occurred were also pretty special - it didn't take long to put the matter to rights either. The important thing was that things were seen to be awry and action was taken to put things right - Yes?

Now tell me Kevin, who were the Muslim/Islamic equivalents of Kate of Hardwick, Elizabeth the First, Elizabeth Fry, Florence Nightingale, Marie Currie, etc, etc, (an awe inspiring multitude down through the ages of history) - Now you tell me who the Islamic equivalents were.

Abolition of the Slave trade Act 1807 and the Abolition of Slavery Act 1833 - far enough back for you Kevin?

Relief Acts of 1793 and 1829 regarding religion being an impediment to job or career - far enough back?

Of all the major break-throughs and achievements of the twentieth century (and there were many, in a vast number of fields of endeavour) the one thing that was picked out recently as being the most significant in terms of the benefit to humankind in general was the emancipation of women. Kevin, ask those who sympathise with the viewpoint of the Taliban or Al-Qaeda if they agree with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:04 AM

"...it didn't take long to put the matter to rights either." I suppose that's one way to describe the Second World War.

Who's talking about "those who sympathise with the viewpoint of the Taliban or Al Qaeda"? My central worry is that we might act in ways that actually strengthen the ability of people like that to destroy, and that in fact we have been doing that over the last couple of years.

As for the emancipation of women, that is an extremely recent development in our society, and over the whole of what can reeasonably be called "our system" around the planet, it's still pretty patchy.

It just seems to me that we are more likely to preserve and develop the good things in our way of life, if we appreciate that they aren't built into us irreversably, in some way analogous to a genetic code. If we make the wrong mistakes we could well lose them. I'd have thought in fact, Teribus, we'd have been completely in agreement about that, even if we might disagree about some of the things we'd count as good, and some of the mistakes that we could make.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:36 AM

"My central worry is that we might act in ways that actually strengthen the ability of people like that to destroy, and that in fact we have been doing that over the last couple of years."

Destroy what Kevin? There is no way on this earth that fundamantalist groups like Al-Qaeda could bring down "western civilisation", I most certainly do not ascribe to the views held by Akenaton of either their ability or their power to do that.

As we established agreement earlier on with regard to the fact that there is no negotiated settlement with respect to Al-Qaeda, and that they have been attacking us since the mid-nineties, then it would not appear that we have any other choice but to fight them.

As for the emancipation of women, recent development in our society, patchy, or not, "our system" allows it and encourages it. Fundamental Islamists would not.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

As for the emancipation of women, recent development in our society, patchy, or not, "our system" allows it and encourages it. Fundamental Islamists would not. And Fundamental Christianity? (Both cases you could find some people to which that label could be applied who would, and some who wouldn't."

"There is no way on this earth that fundamantalist groups like Al-Qaeda could bring down "western civilisation". My worry centres around the possibility that western civilisation might move into a self-destructive mode in the process of responding to the threat from such groups.

And the analogy that I have in mind is of Nazi Germany, where a large part of "western civilision" did precisely that, in the process of responding to another kind of fundamentalism. (That's an analogy, and if course analogies are not intended as suggesting that things and situations are identical. Just that in some way the one provides an illustration of a possible scenario.)

Some people think that the right way to respond to a crisis is to look on the bright side ("we can never be defeated"), and that this is necessary to maintain morale. Others prefer to deal with it differently ("we will never surrender"). I suppose it's a matter of temperament as much as anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:50 PM

"You love life, we love death"
I don't know how these words from the Al Qaeda tape have been translated into English, but you'll get the idea.

Those here arguing for appeasement are both right and wrong in my eyes. It depends upon who you have in mind with that politics. If you think Al Qaeda will stopp using terror attacks when some demands (retreat from Afghanistan, Iraq; solution of Israel/Palestininas problem, etc.) are fulfilled you are naive. They will not stop. The list of demands will grow with each success of a terror attack: Elimination of Israel as a state; paying trillions of Dollars for decades of cheap oil; release of all sentenced terrorists; introduction fo the sharia in all countries with a Muslim population of more than 20 %. The list is potentially endless.

Just to give you an idea, there are leaflets distributed in Germany saying the sooner we realise that there is only one religion the more peaceful the transition for us. Would you be ready to do anything demanded just to be sure that there will be no new terror attack? I hope not. Like with an individual attacker there is a limit for most people when they would start to fight back and not to give in.

Bin Laden (and likeminded) have learned one lesson in Mogadishu in 1993: A dozen or so dead American soldiers can change America's politics. That is the deepest sense of the line I have cited above. Western countries are sensitive to losses of human life, therefore they can be blackmailed with terror or threat of terror. An individual fighting with complete disregard for his own health is usually a more efficient fighter than someone not inclined so.

Ake has once described the appeasement position in another thread (I paraphrased for I haven't found it): Let us fulfill all reasonable demands and hope then that the threat goes away. Very understandable but completely wrong politics. You have to decide before what you want yourself and then draw a line and fight back when that line is crossed. You have to make clear beyond any doubt that terror will never reach its goals. The Bin Laden's/Hitler's of this world only understand that language.

If you look, however, at the whole population from which the terrorists come (Arabs, Muslims, or whatever) an appeasement politic is a good politic. The terrorists are a very minor percentage of all the population they came from. Most others from that population would never go that far. A sizable minority however rejoices more or less open with each act of terror. A clever politic will try to ensure that the terrorists are separated from the hearts of the population they came from. So to take away grievances or injustices is a good idea.

The politics of the Western countries should define what is wrong in our politics independent of terror acts and right those wrongs. But the immediate response to terror acts must be strong and make clear that nothing at all is gained by these acts. The majority must see that a goal which is reachable by peaceful politics can become unreachable by terror. That's how learning works. An appeasement politic alone gives the wrong signals.

That's why I still think it was a good idea to invade Afghanistan for to show other countries that direct support of terror will have immediate consequences. And that's why I still think that invading Iraq was a bad idea for it shows other countries that even without a direct connection to terrorists they can be invaded with not very convincing (to put it mildly) reasons. If you know you might be invaded anyway that'll only make you more stubborn.

And that's why I think the future rpime minister of Spain has given an awfully wrong signal. I think that getting the Spanish troops back from an ill founded war is the correct action. But to announce such an action immeadiately after the Madrid attack puts other European countries (and in the long run even Spain) in unnecessary danger.

Neither giving in nor demonstration of superior strength alone will win over terrorism. The balance of both makes a good policy.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:47 PM

Wolfgang ...You have my position in a nutshell,I did not mean to give the impression that appeasment was all the West could do to nullify the terrorist threat.
Not all the people of the Middle East are fundamentalist lunatics, and by changing our policy to wards them,trying to prove that we are not merely money grubbing warmongers,we may be able to undermine the authority of the fanatics. The people themselves never want war ,but are always lead there by their masters ,be they Moslem or Christian.
No matter what Teribus says,and I have great respect for his spirit of optimism,confrontation is not an option,it will alienate ordinary Moslems even more and drive them into the arms of the fundamentalists.
Also as has been proved in Spain is is physicaly impossible to fight an enemy like Al Quaeda with brute force "Softly Softly Catchee monkey"
In reply to Teribus,Modern Capitalism is different from even a decade ago,and now depends to a large extent on public confidence and the willingness of people to spend and invest.
My real fear is that a few biological attacks would cause such panic that "our system" would collapse. I believe that biological attacks could have been undertaken in the past, but must have been felt to be Counter productive at that time. A position that wont alway apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM

Johnny...Naw ye widnae be richt, Ahm as Scottish as the heatheRRRRR
                  Aw the best ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

The only hope is for the West to address all the obvious wrongs which they have perpetrated in the Middle East.
Show the Muslims that we dont want to destroy their historic culture.


Ake:

I think this is a grand idea, but the devil will surely be in the details. Do you have anything more concrete? Naming the wrongs and the remedies thereto woul dmake it easier to understand what you have in mind.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:14 PM

Here's a link to an article in the Catholic weekly in England, The Tablet, which takes a rather different and quite encouraging stance on the relationship between Islamic communities and their neighbours in non-Islamic countries - The Celtic cross and the crescent

Ireland's Catholics were assimilated into Britain with ease, thanks to respect for their beliefs, strong leadership and school provision. There is a lesson to be learned here if Muslims are to be similarly welcomed...

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

"You love life, we love death"

This is in effect a paraphrasing of the observation that Ho Chi Minh once made, in that America (and by association these days, its allies) could never prevail, because they (we) are too sentimental about their (our) dead.

Rough thing to say, but as has been proven in Spain, he identified an Achilles Heel, that, if the powers that be don't (for one) settle down and sort out the Israeli/Palestinian question, which all militant Islamic groups point to as a source of inspiration, Bin Laden and his cronies will continue to exploit.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:50 PM

Removing the things that help the terror organisations recruit people isn't a way of rewarding them - it's the last thing they want to see happen. But the important thing is sort things out without wasting time, because that just makes it possible for them to claim that good things like that only happen because of the violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:08 PM

I wouldn't have thought that sorting out Palestine would be rewarding them for not bombing us. It was never set up properly in the first place.
It would appear that vested interests have steered the agenda there since the Husayn-McMahon understandings.

Why can't we just concentrate a bit more on on sorting it out, simply because it is the right thing to do?
The rewards are what we will have, as the world settles down to what may yet be called 'an acceptable level of terrorism'.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM

The problem is...That even if we sort out all the historical wrongs,we are still leftwith the conflict between global capitalism and the Islamic culture.
To survive ,global capitalism requires new markets and new cheap labour to exploit,and for Islam to survive, its followers must be kept away from "Western values",for example ,the treatment of women and children as "sex objects".
As neither the capitalists nor the Moslems appear willing to give way, a Jehad seems inevitable.
People dont seem to have grasped the fact that the terrorists have the upper hand .They can pick their time to strike, they are anonymous, and who knows,they may already have the small phial of biological agent they need,to change the world for ever.
The difference between the Nazis and the terrorists is,the Nazis required a huge army, navy, and airforce,to attempt to dominate part of Europe, whereas the terrorists only require a little bit of luck to
dominate the word...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

The global capitalism/ Islamic culture conflict is one which there does seem to be no apparent common ground to appeal to, and in this respect, akenaton, I do fear for the future.
Doing things for the common good is also not part of any present political agenda, and this does not particularly bode well, as least in the short-term, neither.

I could not imagine pleasing/containing/appeasing every terrorist grouping on the planet, and as such, I suspect, there will always be some sort of terrorist threat out there.

But we are steadily being de-sensitised, and in time we will learn to live with our ever changing circumstances.

It will keep us from worrying about the minimum wage, the state of the health services. and so on.

(.... I have the television on in the background here, and I just heard a CNN interviewer asking an Iraqi lady, "What is it like going to bed at night, not knowing if you are going to wake up alive or dead, in the morning?")
It looked a bit like Christiane Amanpour, but I wouldn't swear to it!

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM

Akenaton and Amos: Re "The only hope is for the West to address all the obvious wrongs which they have perpetrated in the Middle East. Show the Muslims that we dont want to destroy their historic culture."
I had forgotten that the 'wrongs' and the 'remedies' were already set out, and went searching: Bin Laden's Letter To The American People - Novenber 2002.

It makes chilling reading, but the West could certainly consider some of the points. Just because Bin Laden has said them, doesn't necessarily invalidate the grieviances.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:03 AM

Fair enough Jim,

As I read it all we have to do is:

A. Wipe out the state of Israel, or mutely stand by while others do it.

B. Convert to Islam

C. Accept the rule Sharia Law

Seem reasonable? Those demands delivered as absolutes, with compliance to be determined by Osama.

DON'T THINK SO NOT AS LONG AS MY ARSE POINTS DOWNWARDS.

Now can you direct me to the site of some distinguished, reverred and respected Islamic Cleric/Immam/Mullah who has come out in print to denounce this rubbish for exactly what it is?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:30 AM

Another chilling reading is the manifesto of the jihad, as 'Milestones' by Sayyid Qutb has been named. read it if you want to know how far Al Qaeda intends to go:

online English version

Just chose one chapter and start reading.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:39 AM

Don't think you read this bit, Teribus: "We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation".

Lets hope, in that case, that you never emigrate to Australia

I have no wish to even search for a site of some distinguished, reverred and respected Islamic Cleric/Immam/Mullah, Teribus, never mind direct you to it.

Is there any particular reason you think that I should?

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:32 AM

Hi Jim,

Does that mean that he wants all of us (western civilisation) "to deal with us (adherants to his own particular interpretation of Islam) and interact with us (adherants to his own particular interpretation of Islam) on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation", before or after we have:

A. Wipe out the State of Israel, or mutely stand by while others do it.

B. Convert to Islam

C. Accept the rule Sharia Law

Personally, I believe he meant after the above had been accomplished.

One piece of good advice he does give us from his "good book" as interpreted by himself -

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

All depends what you are a true believer in - Doesn't it?

PS pleased to hear that all those Islamic Banks don't charge interest on the loans they dish out.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:30 AM

Ake - sorry for the insult!
Pax
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

Yes well, deep thinkers like yourself have a habit of believing their own assumptions, and then acting pre-emptively upon them.

Not all of Islam supports Bin Laden, Teribus, nor fundementalism, for that matter. The hearts and minds that could be won by pre-emptively telling Israel to get her finger out and adhere to a few UN resolutions, herself, would go a long way towards gaining a bit more respect among more moderate Muslims, who believe in the ideal of a totally Islamic world, just as Christianity has a habit of believing that it try to force itself down everybody's throat that it comes across.

Perhaps you could direct me to a web site that explains to me why you are so much against the clearing up of the Israeli question.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:39 AM

Ah, well, yes equally deep thinking Jim,

While I would tend to agree with you that, "Not all of Islam supports Bin Laden, nor fundementalism, for that matter." - they are not the ones who are wandering the planet blowing innocent bystanders to bits.

And to answer a question you asked earlier - So far I have not heard the moderate voice of Islam openly and roundly condemn Al-Qaeda's and similar like minded group's interpretation of Islam. But then as you state these moderate Muslims, like Osama, also believe in the ideal of a totally Islamic world - I don't, never will.

I also believe that today's practice of christianity does not demand total conversion to Christianity - Anywhere. Might have done once upon a time, in fact not for sometime, definitiely not now.

Now to progress to the bit about UN Resolutions.

Yes, by all means, let us win, "The hearts and minds", and "respect" of all those moderate Muslims by pre-emptively telling Israel to get her finger out and adhere to all relevant UN resolutions.

But in doing that we would then have to engage in the process of winning, "The hearts and minds", and "respect" of all Israelis by also pre-emptively telling all those Arab countries to get their collective fingers out and adhere to all relevant UN resolutions applicable to them with regard to the State of Israel.

Or is that concept just a little too even handed for you to grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:41 AM

Sorry that should be "fundamentalism"

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:42 AM

Here's a quote from an article by the director of the International Policy Institute at King's College London, Professor Michael Clarke - A war of nerves.   I think he sets out very clearly the point that trying to deal with problems is not the same as "negotiating with terrorust":

"...governments must not neglect the third element - political process. Politicians such as José María Aznar too easily confuse this with the horror of "negotiating with terrorists".

"But political dialogue is not directed at the psychopathic mentality of those who would kill indiscriminately. It is designed to divorce terrorists from their potential bases of wider support by indicating to ordinary people that the issues terrorists claim to fight for are susceptible at least to political debate.

"Terrorists gain greatest popular support when they can fairly claim to have no other voice..."

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 09:52 AM

Good article.

(Sorry about what comes, but I just didn't want to resist the temptation:)
What ist a terrorust? A terrorist after two years in the good sea air at Guantanamo.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

Al-Qaida Mutates Into Web of Terrorists (Guardian)

The al-Qaida terrorist network, its command structure hit hard by Washington's war on terrorism, is mutating into a hard-to-define web of Islamic militants who share Osama bin Laden's ideology and goals even if they operate under other names.

Al-Qaida connections have emerged from terror attacks in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and now Spain, fueled by a recruiting drive by radical Muslims who fought with bin Laden in Afghanistan, security officials told The Associated Press.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:11 AM

And that's another good article, Wolfgang - and here's a particularly thought-provoking and chilling paragraph from it:

"There is no organization as such that you can call al-Qaida now, but rather followers who believe in the ideas of bin Laden and can organize themselves in small cells and carry out attacks."

Fantasies about destroying Al Qaida at a blow by catching up with Bin Laden and his entourage are just that, fantasies.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:43 AM

But a blow for the morale it would be on the long run.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

From a commentary in the Frankfurter Rundschau of today (similar leaning as the Guardian):

"To believe Islamistic terror only aims to chase the occupiers from Iraq could turn out to be the wrong inference. The Iraq war like the Middle-East conflict for Al Qaeda are only means to the end of fighting against 'crusaders and zionists', against the Western civilisation. Islamism is no antiimerialist national liberation movement but it aims to the foundation of the Islamic theocracy. By fanning the flames of the fight of cultures itz wants to summon its troops to finally lead them to the decisive battle. Islamism hates the West not for what it does but for what it is: a liberal (that's considered a good word in Germany, from the left to the right), secular organisation with equal rights for men and women....
...It is getting more and more urgent to ally with moderate Islam in order to develop alternatives to democracy and to rob Islamism of its basis."

The quick reaction of the new Spanish government will turn out to be wrong sooner or later. The worst we could have is a race of Western countries to give in more and more quickly to Al Qaeda's/Islamism's demands. Nobody will win that race but all will lose.

Bert Brecht (in a very different context): He who does not share the fight will share the defeat.

(Sigh: If only the foremost Western fighter would not be so utterly stupid in theirs actions)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

It was frighteningly clear the day after 9-11 that we were up against a distributed, amorphous and shape-changing enemy. Our desperation to be able to name the head of it is a leftover from our ancient practices of waging war against an identified and governed group, an organisam with a head. The current effort is more like fighting the war against cockroaches: there is no Head Roach, nor do they have boundaries or fixed chains of command and control. The one way we know of to fight them is by being impeccable.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: DougR
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

Akenator: no offence, to you either McGrath, but it seems to me that you are both wandering through life with blinders on. If you REALLY think you can negotiate with terrorists, I believe you are very wrong in your thinking.

I agree with Teribus and Wolfgang's position. Appeasement is not the answer. The only way to defeat terrorism is to eliminate it.

The argument that the terrorists struck in Spain because of Spain's backing the Bush administration is all wet too IMO. After all, aren't those who are so opposed to the U.S. and it's allies removing Saddam, constantly preaching that Iraq had no connection to AlQuida prior to the invasion? And Alkenaton, if you can provide proof that AlQuida was not operating in Iraq prior to the invasion, would you kindly produce it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:09 PM

"But a blow for the morale it would be on the long run.

Actually I think a dead Osama Bin Laden would be no loss to them whatever. Movements of this sort are typically built round dead founders. Founders who stay alive too long are just a nuisance. It mightbgve a flip to morale onthisnside, just as the caopture of Sadam did - but once it became clear that things were in no way better as a result, that would soon disperse.

And Doug - when did I ever say anything about "negotiating with terrorists", more especially in this context. (In the context of situations like Northern Ireland there are different issues involved, and there's a pretty wide consensus that the negotiations that led uip to the Good Friday Agreement were a good thing.)

I suggest you have another look at that quote I gave in this post up the page, which explained the point I've been trying to make pretty clearly. Then maybe read the article it comes from, by a pretty dispassionate and articulate academic who isn't flying any flag for Al Qaeda.

And honestly Doug - there is no evidence whatsoever that Al Qaeda was operating in any part of Iraq under Saddam's control. I think you'd find it impossible to find anyone who knew anything about Iraq who disagreed with that. It's about as sensible as suggesting the Ku Klux Klan were really running thing in Haiti under Papa Doc.

And that quote Wolfgang gave in his last post is very apposite too.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:19 PM

Amos, BTW, was the first poster in the WTC thread who did a quick analysis, two hours after the event:

Osama Bin Laden announced three weeks ago that his people would launch an unprecedented attack against the United States. The rationale was retribution for the US' support of Israel.
...
            I cannot imagine what the scenario Bin laden's plannersa could have had in mind would be in terms of benefit to their people or their concerns. If this analysis of the source of these attacks is concerned, Bin laden himself will be buried in a bunker before a year is out. His people will not benefit and may in fact support grievous harm because of his psychotic and juvenile actions...

For a two hours after the event analysis this is still extremely good.

From another German liberal newspaper (Sueddeutsche Zeitung). A German Muslim writes:

" (I'm angry) about the distorted picture the media paint of Islam. But this distorted picture would never have come into the foreground if not enough Muslims, terrorists, theologians, heads of governments, corresponded exactly to this caricature of Islam, that annoys the believers and the knowledgeable. There may be a concept of the Islam as enemy, but far worse is that there is a type of Islam talking and acting as if being the enemy."   

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:32 PM

The thing is, that's very much the same kind of thing that has sometimes been said, Wolfgang, by people seeking to sort-of-justify anti-semitism, or racial prejudice generally. There are always going to be some people who fit the negative stereotype.

That doesn't mean that, coming from a Muslim it isn't very fair comment. But it's so easy to spin the argument into something which isn't fair. (And, obviously I'm not suggetsing you are doing that.)

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:33 PM

Usually, with a medium position asking for more than a single minded approach, you can expect to get flak from both sides. What have I done wrong to be cited with praise from both sides for a sub-part of my position?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:12 PM

Some of us are maybe learning to be a bit more discriminating. With luck it might catch on.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 03:56 PM

Doug...Sorry but I am unable to respond to your post,as Ican make no sense of it.
I would recommend,cold drinks,a darkened room,and no TV news or newspapers until things improve .   Best wishes Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:01 PM

'Even handed' would invariably include the option that we bomb and sanction Israel into compliance.
It would not be on my wish list for the region, but I am indebted to you for bringing in this added dimension dimension to the discussion, Teribus.

Most people (rightly or wrongly), believe that terrorism is carried out by a minority of people, but that it can be condoned by many in the absence of any other tangible solutions.
The moderate element within Islam, just like Bin Laden, want the Palestinian issue sorted out. They are also sympathetic to other issues contained in Bin Laden's wide ranging list, as contained in that letter, above.

I don't think anybody on this forum, including myself, really believe that terrorism ban be wiped out totally, whether with brute force, or by negotiation; hence my prediction of 'the acceptable level'.

Some of them hate us, Teribus. Fair enough, some of us hate them back. That doesn't mean we blow their countries to kingdom come, and make them conform to our way of viewing the world.
As Halliburton and the likes re-construct all the way to the bank, the more fundemental of our beloved Christian fraternity, are dealing out God (he who has no Gods before him)to the meek with every single bowl of soup, and if I could be bothered later, I'll direct you to a couple of sites where you can confirm this for yourself. (alternately you could type in something like 'Bringing the Salvation of Jesus back to the Unbeliever)....

... ahh to hell with it... here's oneClick here and be saved

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 03:21 AM

'The enemy of my enemy is my brother' I believe that is a saying originating from the Middle East.

Over the last 60 years western and other governments have armed the enemies of their enemies, offered them funding and training.

Why should we be surprised that we find the weapons turned back on us.

Strict controls on weapons exports is no longer the answer, all the stuff is out there already.

Governments of all kinds seem blind to see what happens when you sell/provide arms idescriminently.

What is now different is that the terrorists are making use of modern technology and raising the anti. They are linking up in ways we never thought possible and doing things that were never thought possible.

Their thinking/reasoning is totally alien to most of us. They even bomb their own people (Saudi for example). They come from all religeons.

Even if we did get our Governments to agree to negotiate, then with whom will they negotiate. The governments of countries who have known terrorist groups inside their countries are unlikley to put their hands up and volunteer for talks as their are most likely to be splinter factions who would disagree and go on and make an attack to prove their own point.Viz the Real IRA.

So we cannot negotiate with them. Nor can we bomb them out of existance, nor can we invade every country harbouring them. Even soft options like trade embargoes dont work.

These organisations are able, intelligent and well funded and are constantly looking to make a new incident more horrific than the next. I only think it is a matter of time before they get hold of a device such as a battlefield nuclear weapon (small but horribly effective) from a country that has no control over its own arms arsenal and use it. After all in the latest incident no one noticed 10 bombs being placed so how much easier for the placement of just one.

Sorry folks I dont have any answers to all this,just putting thoughts down on paper, I find it very depressing that the Pandora's Box is truly open.

Subject: RE: BS: Costa Terror
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 04 - 06:28 AM

"They even bomb their own people..."

Whoever you bomb, it's always your own people.