Any glottal stops down your way?

Subject: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:56 PM

For sone bizarre reason I started thinking about glottal stops, and wondering where they crop up in other parts of the world. It started because I was going to buy something at a shop called "Matalan", and it occurred to me that most people round Harlow would be likel;y to call it "Ma'a-lan".

I looked up a definition: "A glottal stop is a speech sound articulated by a momentary, complete closing of the glottis in the back of the throat. Glottal stops occur in many languages and usually pattern as consonants."

Which makes it all sound very difficult, and I started speculating whether people in places where they don't use them find hard or not. Maybe they are like the Xhosa clicks which most people who don't speak Xhosa find impossible to articulate.

So where are they a normal part of daily language, and where aren't they? The Mudcat is about the only place you could ask a daft question like that and hope to get at least some real answers.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:11 PM

None of which I'm aware in western Canada. I'll think on it. The great consonant shift worked here. The glotals went. We have chosen the 'lazy' way to say words, and that extends to fricatives, plosives and stops.

BM

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:15 PM

I THINK so ! In Spain, particularly in Andalucia the d is often ommitted e.g.
El Colorado is pronounced El Colora'o

As a foreigner if I want to sound like one of 'em I drop the D quite a lot.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM

The glottal stop is strong in some of my favorite music, that of Hawai'i (proper spelling, showing the glottal stop).

Tha absence of a letter, such as a missing 'd' in Colorado, is not the result of closure of the glottis, therefore not a glottal stop.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:39 PM

Glottal stop is common and proper in Arabic.
Love, Johnny

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:46 PM

In Hebrew, too.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:50 PM

And in Bronxese

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

The remark about 'Bronxese' reminded me of something I have heard in street English in London; 'din't' for didn't. Also heard on 'eastender' programs in British-produced TV. It sounds like a glottal stop is inserted, but I am uncertain as to whether this meets the definition.
I doubt that a true glottal stop is present in speakers of the Bronx tongue.

"Handbook of Phonetics," Sweet, 1877: "The most familiar example of this 'glottal catch' is an ordinary cough."

The Hebrew Q represents a glottal K, taken neither in English, Greek, nor Latin. OED.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM

they sure make it puzzling for non-locals to make out some words!

I can, with a little concentration, DO a glottal stop and approximate that sound. I sorta wish those to whom glottal stops are normal could avoid one long enough to say "Matalan" for me, and save getting out pencil & paper. (My wife picks up dialects and linguistic varitation MUCH faster than I do.)

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM

I was struck by their use in Scots dialects when in Edinborough and found I could accomodate them easily enough. "Wa'err" and buh'err".

A

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM

Not a glottal, but. . .

My English grandmother said buTTer, and the TT was clear. Canadians say buDDer, but the DD is somewhat softer. The spoken language here takes the 'lazy' way. However, I wouldn't care to say 'lazy' is easier, although it usually is.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:18 PM

Leaving out a letter, as the Spanish often do, particularly in the south, is not glottal.
Seville, in Seville, is pronounced S'via, almost sounding like one syllable; but the glottis is not closed.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:19 PM

I sang "Pat Murphy of Meagher's Brigade"/"Song of the Splintered Shilellagh" earlier today (thanks to Jed Marum and Dan Milner), and it seems the correct pronunciation of "Meagher" has a glo'al stop in it. 'Mah - er'. If I'm wrong, somebo'y please tell me!

It's qui'e common in places I've been in the US, and usually considered to be a bad habi'. It happens with 't' a lot: as I mentioned, 'glo'al', li'le, entertainmen', ballo'. When i' happens at the end of words (as in the last two), I hardly notice i' - probably because I'm guilty. I think perhaps when I was younger, I made an unconscious judgement that actually pronouncing 't's was too much work and sounded twinky. Now, I have grea' respect for those who do.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:21 PM

This is the fastest-growing thread I've seen on the 'cat.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:31 PM

could Q maybe give some examples for dafties like me to learn from ? thanks

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:42 PM

Coming from just south of Manchester (UK), where the glottal stop is quite prevalent, I was amazed to find that 40 miles away it was unknown in Scouse (Liverpool dialect), and the local kids could not produce one.

Where I would say Grea' they would say Greatzz

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: KateG
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 06:55 PM

Danish is full of them. It's why I could never learn to speak it and had great difficulty understanding it, even though I can read it passibly having studied other Scandinavian languages.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:24 PM

My late Uncle Willie from West Rutland, Vermont was prone to glottal stops: bo'le for bottle. His mother pronounced both vowels in "peas" and "beans," almost "pee-uhs" and "beeuhns."

clint

(Uncle by marriage, that is.)

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:25 PM

That's why Norwegians and Swedes say that Danish is not a language, it's a disease of the throat.

As has already been pointed out in this list, the glo''al stop is a regular consonant in Hawai'ian, where it replaces an earlier _k_ (in the western Pacific they say Havaiki), while the present _k_ replaces earlier _t_--a Great Consonant Shift. And it occurs in Semitic languages such as Arabic and Hebrew. There are also languages with glottalized consonants--the consonant is separated from the following vowel by a glottal closure; these are found in Georgian and Amharic, for example.

Several have pointed out that the omission of certain consonants in Spanish is at all the same as their replacement, in some varieties of Scots, British English, and American English ('li'le me'al ke'al', for example). In Puerto Rican and Cuban Spanish _s_ is dropped in some positions; _those two men' is _eto dombre_. And the same dialect is lambdacist, leading to the probably apocryphal notice posted on an office door: Fabol de dejal la yabe en la ofisina. Or: La balca etang en la mal. But any discussion of Spanish here is thread creep.

Stephen

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:30 PM

"'e's go-a lo-a bo-al" meaning "I admire his nerve"

Perhaps they could use the technique in a sequel to Windtalkers.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:40 PM

GUEST:

Pronounce the word AUK. That K on the end causes the throat to close. Ya can hear the sound in the Scottish loCH. In Canada, we'd say it like loCK, and the throat doesn't fully close. A full glottal stop makes it sound like someone's about to spit from somewhere inside the throat..

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:43 PM

At's roigh'. inni'? Sure i' is!!

A

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM

GUEST: Had to check a spelling.

Le'chaim is a toast from the Hebrew language. It's hard to say if you're a North American English speaker.

Where the apostrophe is is where the glottal stop will occur. (It is just by chance that the apostrophe falls there.)

luhKiam. Said properly, people in elevators will duck figurin' you have a gob on the way out.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 08:22 PM

Yodelling involves something very close to glottal stops.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 08:45 PM

The 'apostrophe,' when indicating a glottal stop, is more correctly labeled a 'hamzah.' It is the conventional way of marking a glottal stop in words from the Hawaiian language. It must NOT be confused with the apostrophe in contractions such as didn't or won't, where the glottis is not closed. Stephen R explains its sometimes 'k' equivalent in other Polynesian tongues, but it is not the same as English 'k' in lock, because the glottis is not completely closed, as brucie points out.
Brucie, the word LOCH in Scottish pronunciation does come close, a good approximation for English-speakers who do not have the glottal stop.
In written Hawaiian, the hamzah is important; e. g., ao is light whereas a'o is to teach. Ia is he, she or it while i'a is a fish.

Some Hawaiian words are fairly easy (Hawai'i), others are very difficult without practice (ake'ake'a, to hinder). We have to slow down between the syllables, distorting the word.

Elided words, such as many of the examples given in this thread, are not examples of words with glottal stops. We really don't have them in English. Meagher, pronounced mah er, is elided, without any glottal stop.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 08:49 PM

Glottal stops are important sounds in Ethiopia's national language Amharic, which we were introduced to in our Peace Corps training back in the 1960's. I haven't had much use for them since except as parlor tricks and entertainment on long car rides.

There were the CHE, TE, KE (and seven other varients of each) and the non-explosive versions of the same syllables would have entirely different meanings. Took me the longest time to learn to do them correctly.

Besalam,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 08:57 PM

There's one right down the block. The glottal stops there every half hour and will drop you off downtown or at the mall or at the University.

Linguistically, however, I haven't noticed any here in Idaho. On the other hand, years back my youngest brother was studying Hebrew and taught me to say "bubble gum" and "I crave your body." The first has no glottal stops, but the latter does. I can't reproduce them, but there are three or four in the phrase.

No, I do not know Hebrew beyond those two things and "shalom."

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:17 AM

Is this catered for in:

Oh, dear, wha' can the ma'er be
Trouble's a brewin' away down in Ba'ersea,
For'y-four coppers go' ba'ered on Sa'urday
Down a' the Suicide Arms.

???

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:29 AM

Does American English have glottal stops? Uh-uh. No way.

Brucie, the "ch" sound in Hebrew or in German is not really a glottal stop, since there's a sound. I believe it would be called a glottal fricative.

Oh, and the apostrophe to indicate the glottal stop in Hawaiian is actually written as a backwards apostrophe, and it's called an okina.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:52 AM

The glo'al stop was used a lot in Salford (Lancs) back in the 50s and 60s, but largely by kids who wanted to be considered a bit hard. I can't recall adults using it. There was also another linguistic variant... much of Salford was deprived, but Bringle Eaf (Brindle Heath) was considered even below Hanky Park. The inhabitants used to have cangles in bockuls on the manklepiece.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: pavane
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:10 AM

They are a feature of the London accent(s), but rather overdone in the soaps.

I understand that although they are common in most Arabic dialects, Classical (Quran/Koran) Arabic does NOT have them, being based on the dialect spoken by the prophet. (If I am wrong, as usual, someone will tell us)

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: s&r
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:53 AM

Bra'ford?

see earlier thread

stu

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:14 AM

Norfolk UK - as in "Noarf'k 'n good" & "eye gott'a goe there" ... "well yew want'a be careful then"

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:50 AM

What is the origin of the hard 't' that now features in Estuary? It is the opposite of the glottal stop, in that it exagerates the 't', as in 'that bloke's a nuTTer' and 'shuT it!' Maybe that's just it, hard; hard pronounciation by hard men.

Also, I'm a little confused, as I am a mongrel RP/accent sponge, and a Southerner living in 'the north', to know why my children refer to our local market town as 'Ba-u', when local youth dialect knows it as 'Barton'. My children's lazy speech is meant to crave acceptance by their local peer group, but by sounding different. Is it Albert Square cachet?

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:15 AM

Beg to disagree with Mark's "Does American English have glottal stops? Uh-uh. No way."

There are plenty of glottal stops in American English, and in every other variant of English that I can think of, but not with the value of a separate consonant. They serve as a "grace note" on the following vowel, making it more distinct. Consequently they often pass unnoticed. I imagine most Americans would insert a glottal stop before the second "uh" of "uh-uh" without even realising they were doing it.

The glottal stop is a characteristic feature of German pronunciation too, but also only with this grace-note function. But because it occurs much more than in English, teachers of German tend to emphasise it when teaching English-speakers.

Arabic, incidentally, apart from the "cutting hamza", also has a consonant which as far as I can determine is a glottal fricative, but teachers and manuals don't seem to have hit on the idea of describing it in those terms. As a result, people trying to learn Arabic make a bigger thing of it than warranted and wrongly imagine they are incapable of pronouncing it at all.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST,Mike W
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:43 AM

Mcgrath of Harlow i think you are attributing too much respect to the practice of ommiting the T sound from pronuciation to infer that the speaker actually makes an effort to substitute the consonant with some form of throat muscle spasm.

Surely it is just laziness on the part of those who speak like this and the sound is left out altogether.

Difficult to do if you are an RP speaker as it goes against the grain.

Let's hope it is just a passing fashion and they will grow out of it.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:25 AM

Jean Redpath used to tell a story about a cricket match in Cowdenbeath. The light was fading and the defending batsmen were being careful to play out to a draw. A voice came from the pavilion exhorting the batsmen to "'i' oo' a' i'".

In RP, that would be "hit out at it".

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:51 AM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar is correct. Glottal stops are often used in American English to separate words, where the first word ends with a vowel and the next word begins with a vowel. Try saying "Happy Easter" without a glottal stop and the words run together – "Happeeeester." The glottal stop is more likely to be used when you are trying to speak very distinctly or in a dignified manner. It sounds sloppy without, relatively speaking.

Most people are unaware of this. Elementary school teachers – from whom we get most of our ideas about "right" and "wrong" pronunciations – usually don't call attention to such things unless there is a "problem" – not everyone is pronouncing things the same way.

Glottal stops aren't difficult for Americans to pronounce; it's more difficult to get people to notice them.

By the way, I think Mark Cohen was pulling your leg.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

Mike W are you being tong in cheek? Or do you really believe that elitist drivel.
For my part I'm proud not to be an RP speaker and, revel in the regional diversity of accent and dialect.
If you ever come eo' to see Jeano' you must say iyo'.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Lighter
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

Plenty of New Yorkers pronounce the words "bottle," "Italy," and some others with a glottal stop in place of the "t." Maybe the most commonly pronounced glottal stop in America occurs in the middle of "mountain."

Most any English word that starts with a vowel, when pronounced WITH EMPHASIS or IN ISOLATION FROM OTHER WORDS, will actually begin with a glottal stop. Try it.

When carefully pronounced, all German words beginning with a vowel start with a glottal stop.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:11 PM

Looks like some of this is a matter of degree. The glottis does not completely close on 'mountain' or 'happy easter.' I would consider neither of these as having a glottal stop.
Lighter, trying out the 'u' words, my glottis doesn't completely close
The comments about 'uh-uh' intrigued me so I went to the neighbors last night. I found that I actually do insert the glottal stop. My wife says it with partially open glottis. Of two neighbor females, one came close to uh-(h)uh with open glottis, another (from Ireland) closed her glottis.

Now if the next census includes this on the questionaire.....

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: okthen
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:17 PM

Q, the similarity between New York accents and Eastend of London accents is no accident, when America was used as a penal colony a lot of London's criminals were transported to the USA. Also the modern Australian accent is very similar to the Suffolk accent, due to the fact that a lot of Suffolk magistrates owned land in Australia and they sent a lot of their "customers" there as cheap labour.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:48 PM

Amazing stuff... "Where but on the Mudcat" indeed.

I was trying to imagine learning how to do a glottal stop from teh instruction bnook - "Now close your glottis partially/completely.!

Most people (by a very long way) haven't got a clue what a glottis is. I'm not at all sure myself (somewhere in the back of the throat, a flap of skin, or a muscle or something). And I'm not even sure when I'm closing it. But there probably are people for which this kind of explanation and instruction does actually help.

For me it'd have to be a question of "Try to make a sound like this" -and finally, when it comes right, "By George, you've got it!" But God knows how...

I think all this has implications for the way we learn other things to do with music. There are two basically different ways of doing it, and typically, a lot of the time, we find it hard to believe that there are other people who really are different to us, when it comes to that kind of thing.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

In the New York area, at least, there's a plethora of glottal stops (how do you think folks here would pronounce "glo'al)
One that's less often noticed is in the single-syllable words like "silk" and "milk"--the "lk" becomes a swallow, rather than a sound involving the touching of the tongue to the front teeth.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:46 PM

Dick, a lot depends on definition and your background.
'glo'al' is not glottal, that's elision (many other examples given in previous threads).
My glottis does not close on silk, ilk or milk, nor does my wife's but I agree that I have heard it from non-British Isles descendants in NY.

Now what I said about a census question- Hmmm, are Bush supporters more or less glottal than Kerry suporters? Just as valid a question as many of those being asked in polls on CNN, etc.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:33 PM

Darn 'ere in essex ('speshly over in in Clacers (or Clacton)) we figure "t"s are way to much bover. Bu' we ain' gonna move our glo'is none, neiver. Wha'd we wanna do tha' for? If a le'er is too much efor', we jus' leave i' ou', alrigh'?

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:42 PM

I have a feeling that you normally only get a proper glottal stop, London style anyway, when it's an "o" in front of a "t". When t;s some other vowel, or some other consonent, you don't
get that little twitch in your throat. Stick your hand on your throat, and I think you'll feel what I mean.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 06:09 PM

I don't know how you could tell whether the glottis stops the throat completely or only partially without sticking a video camera down someone's throat. Do you suppose that's ever been done?

By the way, I think the glottis is what cats use to purr. I understand no one knows for certain, because the minute you stick anything down a cat's throat to get a peek, it stops purring! I think you'd have a similar problem trying to observe a glottal stop.

Maybe an ultrasound image would work.

My hunch is, all glottal stops close the throat completely, and the only difference between a soft-subtle glottal stop and a loud-distinct one is the amount of air pressure you put behind it -- the same as any consonant, like B or P.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:40 PM

I used to know a teaching assistant from South Africa who used a glottal stop in "bottom," as in "Make sure to note the scale at the bot'om of the map." It was cute.

Subject: RE: Any glottal stops down your way?
From: Stephen R.
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 01:17 AM

No, it isn't right that classical Arabic lacks the glottal stop. It has glottal stops; the difference is that some colloquial dialects also substitute the glottal stop for other consonants, and that isn't classical.

Mark is right that properly the apostrophe is reversed in Hawaiian, but this will confuse you Arabists out there, because in romanizing Arabic the straight-ahead apostrophe is written for the hamzah (glottal stop) and the bass-ackwards one for the letter 'ain. If you think the glottal stop is fun, you will love 'ain; you make it be pulling the root of your tongue as far back toward the back of your head as you can and then trying to say something. If you practice it in public, someone will probably perform the Heimlich Manoeuvre on you.

Stephen