Why do some singers resent tunes?

Subject: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:07 PM

By that I mean instrumental tunes.
I like songs a lot and spend much time listening to, and occasionally performing them. I also play regularly at sessions and enjoy listening to purely instrumental music.
So why do some here seem incapable of appreciating both?

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:09 PM

Good question... seems to me the best show is some of both

:-)

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

I like both.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM

Mebbe we need to get used to the idea that the capacity for aberration and idiosyncracy is unlimited in any one individual.

A

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:23 PM

under most conditions I enjoy both tunes and songs - occasionally will have a day when I *need* to sing though -and no singable tunes are being played. under such circumstances I have been known to go out into the parking lot and sing a song or two before going back and resuming listening to the tunes.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: John Robinson (aka Cittern)
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

For the same reason that tune sessions often get grumpy when someone sings.

I've seen more than one session when a singer was interrupted by someone starting another tune as if the singer was not there.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

I don't understand. I've never even heard of such a thing. It's all music after all.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

Them's fightin' words Amos, and I'll be over there to sort you out as soon as I figure out what they mean. ¦¬]>
John

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:44 PM

" I've seen more than one session when a singer was interrupted by someone starting another tune as if the singer was not there."

That's because there are dick-holes on both 'sides'

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST,ivor bigginin
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:57 PM

Speaking as a singer I find that most singers are sensitive, unbiased and have a wide, varied and catholic taste in music.Unlike some musicians, especially those who try to be Irish.They fly of at a million miles an hour and that is just the slow airs !!!! having been in loads of sessions I find that musicians are by and large egocentric,selfish, ignorant and unsensitive to other people, and if they are not talking through some one who is trying to sing unnacompanied they sit with poised plectrum, bow, stick - oh those fucking bowran players - sqeezy things et-al and soon as you have finished of they go again.

A pox on them all I say.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:00 PM

Ach, Ivor, its a plague, innit? Wod'll we ever do wid all them over-anxious musicians!!??

A

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

I am a singer, I am also incapable of playing an instrument (well except precussion, which most people don't think counts!) I enjoy tunes but some non playing singers resent the fact that some people can play an instrument.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:04 PM

Haven't we beaten this to death ad nauseum. Some do, some don't, support what suits you.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:24 PM

Isn't it a function of what kind of gathering it is?

If it's supposed to be a primarily instrumental session, then instrumental tunes should be expected to be the norm, with songs only now and then, at most, and you wouldn't expect a non-playing singer to attend unless he/she/it liked to listen.

If it's a performers' circle, with people taking their turns in order, then it ought to be each person's option - unless it was announced as a "song circle," which at least implies vocal, rather than instrumental, stuff.

The problem arises with a spontaneous jam, where no rules have been set in advance. If there's a consensus as to what kind of music you're there to do, fine. If not, you may have to break up into two or more sessions.

I sing, and play mostly backup guitar, except alone in my kitchen late at night, where I'm free to play a tune, get halfway through, lose it, swear, and start over. (The cats don't mind.) So I'm glad to play backup for instrumentals - for a while. Then I get bored and leave. But I don't "resent" instrumental tunes being played unless the session was announced in advance as primarily a singing one.

There's a great quote from Chris Newman in the new Flatpicking Guitar magazine, that I posted here once in another thread, but I think is relevant to this one:

Q (Dan Miller): Since there are not too many lead guitar players in Irish
and Scottish music, do you find that other musicians will typically want you
to stay in a rhythm role when you get together to jam:

A (Chris): Absolutely. It is one of the reasons I don't play sessions in
pubs and things like that. Sessions in pubs on guitar playing Irish and
Scottish music is the most boring job in the world. I've got no objection
at all to playing rhythm all night. I actually enjoy doing that. But
playing rhythm to eight fiddle players who are all trying to play louder
than you, I can't be bothered. I hate all that and avoid it like the
plague. But in a good situation with a couple of other musicians,
especially if you are the only guitar or chord player there is great fun.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:43 PM

If you want to sing all weekend there are Wareham Wail and Wittlebury
(in the UK that is) which is fine. I personally prefer a mixed session , so I dont take up space at these events , leaving more room
for those who only want to sing. At Sidmouth there is the Radway for
musicians who want to play the English Tune all weekend. As I do a bit of singing And a bit of playing my preference is for a session
where there is a mix of Balladry, Chorus , Tunes, and anything else
that ppeople feel like doing. It makes for far more fun all round in
my Not Very Humble opinion.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:47 PM

Ach, what the hell, I'll have a go:

It depends what you're used to. I grew up being dragged round sessions and fleadhs in Ireland, and the "way" that I was used to was: lots of tunes, sometimes people sing, and if they do sing, it's unaccompanied, everyone shuts up and listens (if they're good), no one joins in anything (chorus included) and then it's back to a few more tunes.

Having lived in England for a couple of years, and met English singers and been to Mudcat gatherings, I've learnt a new way: the song circle. This was *totally* new to me, as was people joining in (chorus AND verse) and instrumental accompaniment on song. I had never before encountered the idea of people taking a turn (literally, round in a circle) either, nor had I ever encountered song books being used.

Conclusions: personally I like tunes better, but that's because I'm a frustrated fiddler (fnar fnar). It doesn't mean I don't like listening to great singers and great songs. I like Irish sessions (tunes and style), because that's what I'm used to. Horses for courses, and all that - whatever wheels yer turf. But if there's any problems, break out the separate sessions. Then no one suffers, apart from those multi-talented bollixes that can play an instrument, sing a song, remember the words and tap their feet all at the same time. Bastards.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM

Tunes are less of a strain on the voice and the memory.

Myself I think the kind of session Fibula described there is the most enjoyable, along with the kind of song circle which is mostly unaccompanied solo singing, with the occasional chorus and the odd story thrown in.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:01 PM

I play tunes and sing songs at sessionas, so I think I am a shrewd idea why singers are not always mad keen on tune players. One of the reason I play tunes at sessions is,I admit, to practise them. This is not necessarily a good reason why I should, I know, but I do. there is therfore a motivation to jump in quick at the end of the previous person's contribution, and start a set of tunes. However, the urge to sing generally has a different motivation: an appropriate song floats into your head as appropriate to the mood of the evening. And of course, it is impossible to sing this song because some irritating bugger has just started some set of rigs or jeels the minute thhere was a moment's lull in proceedings. And by the ned of their set, either the moment for your song will have past, or some other irritating bugger with another set of tunes they want to practise will have started up. That's the way it goes. The best thing for a singer to do is to stand up, lurch sideways and fall onto the table, knocking over several drinks and emtying ashetrays on the floor. This causes the fiddle players to put thetor instruments away in a panic, or at the very least to clutch them protectively in their bosoms. this gives you a golden opportunity to start your song.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:07 PM

There's a wee article in the current Dirty Linen on young English trad wizard Damien Barber (whose stage show combines concertina tunes, old songs, contemporary songs, and Rapper dancing), wherein he is quoted with this timely tidbit:

"Folk music has always had its own segregated little departments - the singer/songwriters over here, the hardcore traditional singers over there, and the Morris dancers. And it frustrates the hell out of me. We shouldn't be battling against each other; we should be one massive great cultural thing."

In a way, this sort of segregation reminds me of the progressive left in politics, which seems to prefer infighting to unification. Silly buggers, I say.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM

I like both tunes and songs (because I do a bit of both)and find it hard to understand why some people get so heated when the "wrong" sort of music predominates in an open session. But if I have to find reasons, I'd say:

Some singers dislike pure tune sessions because after an hour or two of tunes you're just bursting to sing if you don't get the chance. This is bad enough if you also play an instrument but must be worse if you don't and have no way of joining in the music. Some singers also find it difficult to cope with the "free-for-all" etiquette at tune sessions, and find it rude if no one asks them for a song - this is a misunderstanding on their part because they're used to song circles and the like, where people take turns or perform.

And then there are instrumentalists who don't like songs . These are generally the players who don't sing themselves, and don't get the point of songs. They feel they've come to play together, not to listen, and get restless if they have to sit quiet and pay attention.

The most accessible sort of singing to have at a mixed session is something that will stand a bit of improvised accompaniment, sung in a convenient key. Or, failing that, rousing choruses or shanties that allow people to join in. Some sessions will provide a quiet, attentive atmosphere to listen to an unaccompanied singer, but some won't. If singers were more aware of this, they might find sessions more welcoming.

To my mind, the easiest atmosphere at mixed sessions is when most of those who sing are also instrumentalists. But if singers really don't like tunes, they're probably best to stick to song clubs.

Marje

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

I think some singers hate tunes because they have had bad experiences with musicians, just as the same as musicians resent singers sometimes,I personally enjoy singers in sessions (im a instrumentalist btw) just as I enjoy musicians going for it in a session. However the only time I get really pissed off is when your playing in a really upbeat session, the songs are up beat (usually rousing chorus's) the tunes are happy...then disaster strikes, a depressive atmosphere mudrering singer comes along and sings something depressingly slow,unenthusiastic and boring.
Dont get me wrong I love a slow number, but not when it goes against the whole feeling of the night.
has anyone else come across this?

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:16 PM

Again it has to do with the kind of showmanship you are dealing with; amateurs can find a dozen ways to freeze a roll and dampen a mood. Singing an overly long song with painfully slow or ego-centric words is a sure way to drag down the temp of a session. Many amateur musicians are so involved with learning their trade that their showmanship gets no attention, and the audience gets treated to bumbling or incompetent owrk. Unserstandable, but it isn't gonna get rave reviews or keep the spirits of the evening up there. SHowmanship is an art and it evolved from hard experience. Not every one pays enough attention to it.

A

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: My guru always said
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:30 PM

I sing, but as I'm not a musician I admire those who are.

But I, along with many singers, find mixed sessions difficult when musicians are 'noodling' between tunes and songs as I can't hear a 'start note' in my head & therefore can't 'launch' into a song. My fault....

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Lil Dog Turpy
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:40 PM

Guru, I have exactly the same shortcoming - my solution is to wander off to the gents and worry the other patrons there by trying to find my start note and warble quietly through the first verse and chorus.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:48 PM

I've seen battle lines drawn after Festival concerts, where everyone gets together to "jam" or sing songs with choruses. There's been some openly expressed antagonism flowing between the two groups, which eventually find their own little space to do their thing, with very little cross-polination. It could also be asked (over here) why songs without choruses don't seem welcome in some gatherings. I realize that everyone likes to sing along, but it limits the music if songs without choruses are second-class citizens. Now, down in D.C., they know how to do sing-arounds where ballads are as welcome as sea chanties or gospel songs with great choruses.

I love 'em all, even though I don't play many "toons." That's partly a lack of ability... tunes make me nervous, but mostly because my first love is singing.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 04:00 PM

it's like the difference between mathematics and philosophy-

tunes are 'math', and they need to be right...songs are philosophy, and vary more and differences are tolerated, in many versions and with a story of image...so it's all just a different mind-set.

I am awed by the talent at a good tune session...but I quickly get bored, as I can't play that stuff, and you 'almost' need to play to appreciate the flow for any length of time...with songs, even accompanied songs, it is easier to just sit & listen

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:13 PM

Did I start this with my post to the other thread?? I'm just wondering. Whatever. ---- Jerry R. has taken note in the past that whenever I made up tapes of my favorites it was almost always a singer with their instrument or an unaccompanied song / ballad. That just reflects my true penchant for preferring the music of those who did what I was doing with my music. And also I loved the looseness of being able to do a song somewhat differently every time I did it. If I was slow recalling a lyric, or if I just wanted to take an extra breath, or decide not to sing a verse that night, I could, and often would, do just that. I enjoy hearing fiddle tunes and tight bands---I truly do. Just not an entire night of them where they dominate the party after the concert. Many is the time we picker/singers wound up in the room upstairs with all the coats piled on the bed just to share a few songs if the din from downstairs didn't make our doing that impossible.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:54 PM

My problem with say, fiddlers is, they don't know when to stop. They go into an altered state and become spastic. They can literally fiddle for hours. And as someone said, they noodle and tune so no one can find a note to start on.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: breezy
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:00 PM

Its great sport to watch groups of musos vying to start a set of tunes.
At least song circles have order and discipline.
Aren't musos rude when they sit with their backs to the singer.
Muso sesions lack leadership, they are a rabble.
Musos play too long and often louder than the person leading the tune set.
Its dowg eat dowg in these sessions.
Great fun.
This is a really good thread.
The best sessions are where you get 1 set of tunes to 3 songs.
musos have little awareness of there being an audience around them whereas singers are aware of an audience thus singers make for better and superior performers and artistes.
Must try the falling on the table idea.

Dont have any of these problems cos I run a civilised Folk-song club where people pay to come and listen to high quality performers every week.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 08:08 PM

Good manners is the thing thst makes the difference. Courtesy, patience, and being interested in hearing what other people can come up with.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: IvanB
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM

What's this with "singers" and "musicians?" Since when has a singer ceased to be a musician (well, I'll admit there ARE instances...but the same is true for instrumentalists...)?

Sorry for the drift, but I had to get my 2c worth in on a pet peeve.

As someone else stated, we've had earlier threads on this issue and never managed to solve the problem. Musicians being human, there are often one or two who will try to usurp a session or song circle to their own ends. I enjoy both tunes and songs and like a mix of both. I also enjoy a bit of quiet time for reflection between either songs or tunes. I don't enjoy those sessions where people feel driven to fill every moment with some sort of sound. But I try to focus on enjoyment of the music being offered and to let the inevitable little irritations sort themselves out.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:48 PM

The singer/musician distinction isn't ideal, but the point, I suppose, is to distinguish between those who are able to play musical instruments in a number of different situations and those who have just learned a few guitar chords in order to accompany their own singing (the people who show up here wanting to be given "the chords" for a song; a musician would be able to work that sort of thing out for themself). Almost anyone can sing if they try (being able to speak provides a useful head-start), but mastering an instrument requires greater effort and application as a rule.

One reason why I rarely go to folk clubs these days is my impression that they are all too often full of self-indulgent solo performers. Give me a session any day; any competent musician can join in with most of the tunes, and the only musical problems are usually the result of guitarists, accordion players or percussionists who don't listen to each other and provide clashing or inappropriate accompaniments. Of course there are occasions when instrumental players show off, but I've always discouraged excessive solo performance in sessions I've been responsible for, whether instrumental or vocal. Such things can make nice interludes, but should not be the main focus. The more people who are constructively engaged at any time the better, from my point of view.

Living in Sheffield, which has an especially strong series of local traditions (old and new) I have probably been spoiled, of course. As some of you may have noticed, I'm far more interested in songs than in dance tunes: but when it comes to playing out, I enjoy the instrumental music more because it's inclusive, absorbing and exciting. Solo singing all too often dampens the mood. I'm perfectly capable of singing if necessary, but why bother when there are people present who can only sing? Let them have the attention. I'm happy playing (literally) second fiddle. It teaches you to listen, to improvise, and to accompany others (properly; imposing an inappropriate chordal structure on a melody is not accompaniment but interference): skills which everyone who cares more about the music than about their own ego ought to cultivate, I'd have thought.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:51 PM

Can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly don't resent instrumentals. I do sometimes feel a little foolish standing on stage doing nada mucho during some instrumental.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Annie
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 10:22 PM

Let me participate in a tune and I'm happy, or let me watch a singer and I'm happy, or let me sing and I'm happy. But tunes as spectator sport? Makes me anxious to participate.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST,Blackcatter at a friend's home
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:43 PM

I discovered something as a singer years ago (now that I also play whistle, it's a bit different). When faced with a session or song circle that is almost exclusively guitar and fiddle, as a singer, I try to be patient, but if I feel any hostility towards me, I turn it around by diddling with my voice while their sawing away at some tune. I know most of the tunes and as someone who's been doing Irish "Mouth Music" for over a decade, I can keep up with most of the session fiddlers. Sometimes it drives them nuts - as if I'm invading their territory. Gotta love it.

One other thing I've learned - I have a low voice and have rarely ever sung harmony, it being easier to "harmonize" by singing the melody a full octive lower. But I've been working with someone and I want to do harmonies with him and I've found that playing the whistle has helped. I can find the harmony on the whistle much more easily than I can singing. So often times, I'll figure out the harmony with the whistle and copy it with my voice.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: JulieF
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM

I sing with both a group of musicians in a session and in song circles. I agree that one of the main problems with singing is sessions is that it is difficult to just jump in and hit the right note and mood for a song. I also find it difficult to interupt musicians who have played together for such a long time.   sometimes I am enjoying the playing so much that I don't want to interupt.   However, it did not take them long to treat my voice as one of the instruments, listening when I sing solo ( as they would listen to each other doing solos) and joining in both instrumentally when they could or in choruses. They now tend to push me into the first song as I am still a little reluctant.

In some ways I find it more flattering that they enjoy my songs than when I sing at song circles but I rather think that it is the novelty value.
J

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 04:36 AM

The thing that polarises singers and musisicans is, as has been pointed out elsewhere, this: singing a song is an ego-trip, and you do it yourself personally (with or without others joining in); playing a tune is something that everyone does together, and if you're not the ego-trippy kind and you hate the thought of being alone in the spotlight where everybody will hear the mistakes you imagine you'll make, then you have the security of being simply an anonymous and invisible part of something much bigger. You can't easily have both situations in one session, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other: horses for courses, I say. (And if you don't like that, I'll say something different!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:10 AM

Who knows? Who cares? It's all music, all enjoyable. It can all be participatory (session tune/chorus) or ego-trippingly exclusive (solo instr or voice). But it's all fun. And the majority of people enjoy both instrumentals and songs in some measure.

Those of either camp that have no time for the other side simply have a chip on the shoulder, and they're welcome to it.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:13 AM

I much prefer a good mixed session - the problem is often getting a good balance. There is also the basic difference that unlike music sessions where everybody jams in together, singers will often prefer to perform on their own. This is not because they're all prima donnas, but because the timing, delivery, and phrasing of a song are very personal things and unless someone playing an accompaniment knows exactly what the singer wants, they can completely spoil what they are trying to achieve. Obviously on certain well-known sing-along songs, everyone is welcome to join in, but I once had to shut up an electric bass guitarist tryin to back Essex Girl on a gentle unnacompanied song. On the other hand, Leadfingers is welcome to add one of his beautiful whistle parts on most of the songs which I sing - but I'm not so sure about the banjo :-)

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: mooman
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 05:49 AM

Maybe I live on a different planet (well I live in a different country)?

I am basically a musician who loves to back singers (only if they want to be backed of course). But there again, as well a traditional, I'm also heavily into blues and jazz/blues where playing with a singer is the norm (and where what you leave out is as important as what you play).

At the regular traditional session we have here, singers are liked and respected and we miss them if they aren't present. That isn't to say we haven't occasionally had the "speed freak" problem with musos a few times over the years.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:06 AM

As has already been discussed in these threads ad nauseam, also by this thread originator, it appears that there are extremists (as with everything) at both ends of the spectrum- some instrumentalists who object to singers and some singers who object to instrumentalists.
Most people, thankfully, are at least tolerant of others, and a good few prefer a thoroughly mixed session. Singers and players vying for supremacy upsets me and misses the point of sharing this wonderful music in all its forms.

A more relevant question might be:

'Why do some people constantly focus on the negative aspects of life instead of celebrating the positives?'.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: VIN
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:41 AM

Nicely put Noreen. We should enjoy the music/song for itself, however it's interpreted. As has already been said, a little bit of tolerance goes a long way. Be at Saddleworth this year?

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: GUEST,bloody hell
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:48 AM

Some singers resent tunes because they cant play an instrument, they need to understand that their voice is an instrument and the sooner the better. I have been in many a session and seen the steam come out of there ears and quite frankly they ruin the session. BUT there are also certain musicians who cant sing that dont like, as they see it, the singers getting the upper hand and becoming dominant in sessions. I'm fed up with hearing the moans and groans, and the regular comment in "folk circle" environments "its my turn and she/he has gone before me. They need to realise its like farting, everone gets a turn. I wish they would stay at home and play with themselves.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 06:58 AM

OK - I sing, unaccompanied, self-accompanied or with other musicians, and I play instrumentals. I also enjoy listening to others do these things. Properly done, "solo" singing is NOT ego-tripping or exclusive. A good singer includes the listeners, even if there isn't a chorus - the song is a communication, and both ends need to be open. As with a storyteller, the singer and the listeners should be united during the performance. Unfortunately, as most people these days grow up thinking music comes from boom boxes with no human input, the skill of listening to a live performance (vocal or instrumental or mixed) is less common than in days of yore. I suppose it's easier as an instrumentalist than as a singer to accept your role in life as "audio wallpaper" - this may account for some of the differences.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:03 AM

If all sessions managed to mix Music, Song, and even some dancing as well as last Sunday's Dog Day Afternoon, then I'm sure that this discussion would be unnecessary.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:28 AM

I will admit to a couple of biases, and begin by saying I am a singer who backs a trad based band on guitar.

First off, about seisuns. Most players at these events think that fast is good. They completely misunderstand the subtlety and simplicity it takes to be a great player. And when they jump in with a singer many of them are trying to force the tempo beyond where the singer wants to take it. And let me digress for a moment. If someone were so rude as to start a different song while I was singing, they might never play again. The other thing that folks forget about jigs, reels, hornpipes, etc, is that after about 30 to 45 minutes, they are much more fun to play than they are to listen to. As a musician, I just absolutely love playing them, but when I am in a concert setting, I space them out.

Having said those things, let me tell you that singers are just as egocentric and maybe more so. I have seen singers come into a seisun that they knew to be a tune seisun and try to take it over. It seems to me that one should be aware of one's surroundings, and understand the environment that one is playing in.

So .......   isn't this really about not being rude? Pay attention when you walk into a seisun, and observe what's going on. Whether you are a singer or a tune player, when you walk into the room take some time to know what the protocols are there. Oh ... yeah .... and don't forget that you shouldn't try to play tunes you don't know. Don't you just hate it when someone sits there and consistently hits wrong chords or notes?

Mick

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 07:42 AM

Very revealing.
TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:04 AM

"But tunes as spectator sport? Makes me anxious to participate."

Most of the tunes are dance tunes, so why not dance. (I know pubs can get worried about that, because the law in England discriminates against dancing even more than it does against music and singing - but more often than not there's a corner in earshot big enough for a set dance.)

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:15 AM

Another point of view; Most of the tunes that get played at a session are tunes that we have heard a thousand times, often played better. But, singers tend to come up with new songs. At least that's how it is in the very few sessions I attend. In other words, listen...you might learn something.

Subject: RE: Why do some singers resent tunes?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 08:17 AM

How many songs do you know Kendall.
PP