Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:13 AM

Your drops of wisdom are a bit suspect, Len, in this case.

the child and its mother are probably homeless and poor.

The child is not homeless, but at home with its father - no information of how poor they are. The mother left them both, of her own accord. I suppose that might have been partly because the soldier in the case seemed better off, but that'd be pure speculation. Her choice anyway.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:22 PM

Sorry, lost in confusion, you are correct

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:51 PM

"I think the song that Brian Peters was probably thinking of was The wee Cooper of Fife"

Yes, Al. The title I was thinking of was actually 'The Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin', but that's the same ballad anyway. 'A Week's Work Well Done' in 'Marrow Bones' has much the same theme - it's worse if anything. Like I said, I'm against banning songs, but each of us inevitably makes judgements about what is appropriate for our repertoire, our intended audience and our own conscience, and for me the above are beyond the pale (though I believe Emily Portman's done a rewrite of 'Wether's Skin' which sounds very interesting). On the other hand I do sing 'The Demon Lover' which, as discussed above, has some common features with 'Peggy and the Soldier'.

Les might have lost the will to live, but I think his original question was an interesting one. Not least because I've heard the Brady version of 'Peggy' / 'Mary' several times without ever really making out the words.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 01:55 PM

I seem to remember Martin Carthy (at one of the National festivals at Sutton Bonington) saying he doesn't sing Fanny Blair any more, because he no longer thinks Young Higgins was innocent?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 02:08 PM

Well things are changing in society, not just in folksong circles. They ran a series of Billy Bunter stories serialised in the morning on Radio 7. Apparently some kids were really traumatised by the sound of Quelch giving Bunter six of the best. they certainly never repeated them.

Its probably all for the best - but surely there is such a lot that we must not throw away. technique - not just instruments, but story telling in a song, the singer engaging with the piece. the essence of the piece - not merely the literal words and meaning.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:22 PM

Where does the notion come that a song in which bad stuff happens should be shunned on the grounds that it is recommending that listeners act that way?

Nobody assumes that Macbeth is advocating murder, or Othello is in favour of marital violence.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:44 PM

"I seem to remember Martin Carthy (at one of the National festivals at Sutton Bonington) saying he doesn't sing Fanny Blair any more, because he no longer thinks Young Higgins was innocent?"
Jesus ,what crap.
Martin is a fine performer, But his views are just his views, his thoughts are always worth considering, but they are not some sort of Gospel
The song Tom Dooley,It transpires that he was innocent, so do we not sing the song? my answer is sing the song, then either point this out in the introduction[as Doc Watson does] or add another verse as I have done, songs are living entities, and to quote Martin Carthy again, the only harm that can be done to a folk song is not to sing it.
so can this politically correct piffle, stop

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 05:53 PM

I first came across this song recorded by Jack The Lad in the mid 1970s. I thought it was a good song then, and I still do - it tells a story, and it has a good tune. It also has the scope for a lot of emotion in the singing.

So I still sing it - even if none of it was the fault of the winds and the waters clear!

epn

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 06:44 PM

Piffle it may be, but its there.

Check out the comments on Paul Brady's Arthur MacBride on YOUtube. Dick. Quite a few are horrified by the bloody backs, but what is also commented is the wee little drummer beaten flat as a shoe. Someone points out that we are talking about the murder of a child.

And this is when the song is performed with faultless virtuosity. How such material will keep from turning to lead in less skilled hands, I'm not sure.

Its the achilles heel in all this preserving the tradition business. the point is that society does change - attitudes. In a way the blues guys have gone through all this - it would be interesting to hear what a player like Scott Ainslie thinks - Scott sounds more like Robert Johnson than Robert Johnson. Amongst the Johnson canon are songs about beating up women.

And yet the blues seem to be in reasonable shape and have found ways forward to adapt and address modern audiences.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Mar 11 - 11:59 PM

I have never taken it that the little wee drummer knocked flat as your shoe in Arthur McBryde was dead ~~ just knocked down. Still, it does seem at that an unnecessary piece of violence towards a juvenile bystander who was only there to do his job ~~ drawing the potential audiences attention so that they would listen to the sergeant's spiel.

Presumably the recruiting party were on the way to recruit somewhere; tho where they expected to find the sort of crowd appropriate for recruiting activities on Xmas day, traditionally a festival spent at home with the family, not any sort of fair-day, is not quite clear.

But I realise I have followed Al into a drift about some anomalies in a song other than that with which this thread is concerned.

Sorry.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:50 AM

"Where does the notion come that a song in which bad stuff happens should be shunned on the grounds that it is recommending that listeners act that way?"

A fair point (although for myself I've been speaking purely personally and not demanding that anyone else shun anything). One of the distinguishing features of the great traditional ballads is that, in general, they don't moralize on the often violent or distressing events they describe. The ballad narrator is more often than not a neutral observer.

'The Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin' is a very different story, though. It's not neutral, but sympathises 100% with the husband, presenting the beating of his wife as entirely justified by her laziness. To quote one version, he "makes the ill wife good" while, in the the version Al mentioned, other similarly afflicted husbands are urged to call up 'The Wee Cooper of Fife' to teach their own lazy wives a lesson. I don't think that it's possible to sing that song without seeming to sympathise with domestic abuse - not without a rewrite, anyway.

In 'Peggy and the Soldier' the story is told from a less subjective standpoint, but it still portrays the protagonists in a very black-and-white way and, to me at least, suggests the implication: "that's just typical of a woman". The Good Soldier said above that the story is "typical of life", but I'd hazard a guess that many more men walk out on their families than do women, so although the scenario of the song no doubt exists, it holds up a distorting mirror.

All I'm suggesting is that we think about the stories of the songs we sing, about whether we're sufficiently comfortable with them to give a committed performance. Different singers will draw the line defining what's acceptable in different places. Personally, I don't think that the fact that a song sounded great when Paul Brady or Martin Carthy recorded it is sufficient reason to want to sing it myself.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:00 AM

And regarding 'Fanny Blair' which Kitty mentioned, that's another one in which the narrator is far from neutral. We are told directly that Fanny has lied in court, and when in the last verse the mob declares Higgins innocent and Fanny a perjuring whore, it's pretty clear that right-minded people are expected to be on the same side.

Anyone whose circle of friends includes teachers will have heard of instances in which children make false accusations of physical or sexual abuse. Nonetheless sexual abuse of children is real and not uncommon, so to sing 'Fanny Blair' runs the risk of appearing to downplay that reality.

I suspect strongly that FB would have been heard scarcely at all in the folk clubs of England, were it not for the magnificent tune.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 06:11 AM

To answer Les's original question, yes I would, and I do.

Why? I have always considered traditional song to be the 'soap opera' of it's time, all human life is there. As has been pointed out before, singing a song about a specific subject does not mean that you condone the subject matter, any more than the writers of Eastenders when the plot follows a violent or controversial turn, or the news correspondent reporting on a violent incident.

Lets not get politically correct with the tradition. We should show some respect for the intelligence and understanding of our listener.

Perhaps though, we should, as responsible performers, carry a range of leaflets about the subjects covered in our songs, and make the statement at the end 'If you have been affected by any of the issues contained in these songs, phone the helpline on……….'. And of course, any CD's for sale must now go under the counter, in plain packaging, just in case the bright colours encourage youngsters to take up folk music!

Sing it loud and proud Les.

John

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM

When this was first posted I wondered "Why wouldn't you?" and I still don't really understand the objections.

It's the old triangle - A leaves B for C, it doesn't work out and A tries to go back to B and is rejected. It happens all the time, to all combinations of the sexes. One of the things I like about folk music is the way an apparently old song can tell a bang up to date story.

None of the characters behave particularly well, not even the husband although he is perhaps the one most to be sympathised with. But the song makes no comment, simply tells the story.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 07:47 AM

exactly, Howard.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:07 PM

"We should show some respect for the intelligence and understanding of our listener."

Yes, but there are some listeners who will not extend the same respect to you.

It's a simple if regrettable fact.

I believe that Brian and I are in agreement that if a song makes you uncomfortable, or if you believe it will make members of your audience uncomfortable, there's no reason on earth to sing it.

Personally, I think "Peggy and the Soldier" is a bit much but that "Arthur MacBride" is perfectly harmless. Who cares why, except that the more bizarre the objection, the less likely others will share it. The less bizarre, the more likely.

As for "The Wife Wrapped in Wether's Skin": just as it is possible to think of the song as an endorsment of wife-abuse, it's equally possible to find it harmlessly amusing because of the husband's ingenuity and because the blows are cushioned by the thick sheep's pelt. If he'd been a real-life wife-beater instead of just a humorous fiction, he wouldn't have needed the sheepskin as an excuse.

But the point remains that nobody's forcing anyone to sing or not to sing anything. It's up to you.

Sing what you like and expect some criticism - sane or crazy, PC or otherwise.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 12:19 PM

'it's equally possible to find it harmlessly amusing because of the husband's ingenuity and because the blows are cushioned by the thick sheep's pelt. If he'd been a real-life wife-beater instead of just a humorous fiction, he wouldn't have needed the sheepskin as an excuse.'

He always sounded like a bit of a turd to me. So did Mr Quelch, with his 'gimlet eye'.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 10 Mar 11 - 05:04 PM

One of the very few folk songs that were taught at any of my schools was The Wee Cooper o' Fife. At the time it was evidently considered perfectly suitable for young minds (male ones, that school being a single-sex one).

The next versions of The Wife Wrapped in Wether's Skin that I heard were both sung by women: Hedy West and Norma Waterson. Draw your own conclusions.

Another song that got some stick earlier in this thread is My Brother Sylveste. That clearly belongs in the genre of tall tales, and no part of it deserves to be taken seriously. If anyone does want to take offense, a better justification than the mere presence of the "N" word would be that a character who "killed forty" people (of whatever race) is the hero.

Richard

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 08:08 AM

Howard Jones wrote:
"When this was first posted I wondered "Why wouldn't you?"

I think the question for me, Howard, is "Why would you?". For me to take the trouble to learn a song and find a place for it in my repertoire, I have to be actually enthused by it, not merely satisfied that it isn't really very offensive. Earlier in the thread various posters discussed whether the question was a matter of censorship or self-censorship, but to me it's neither - it's just making a choice.

There are several contributors here that I know and respect, who find no reason not to sing 'Peggy'. That's fine - like I said, different people draw the line in different places. One old friend of mine sings 'Fanny Blair', and I'm not about to start a fight with him just because I find the song questionable. I don't actually believe in selecting only songs that won't offend anyone (some people are very easily offended!), but 'Peggy' - as Lighter said - makes me a bit uncomfortable, that's all.

As for 'The Wife Wrapped in Wether's Skin', Hedy West seems to have recorded it in 1965, when feminism had yet to make much impact on our culture. I was surprised to hear that Norma had sung it, but then I remembered that she did sing 'Willy Went to Westerdale', which A. L. lloyd at least seemed to think was a version of Child 277. I'm not convinced of that, but whether it is or not, it contains no reference to wife-beating.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Paul Davenport
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 01:17 PM

'For me to take the trouble to learn a song and find a place for it in my repertoire, I have to be actually enthused by it'
I think Brian has pinned down the nub of this thread. Why would you sing a song that didn't touch your innermost being? There are literally thousands of songs out there and thats not mentioning the ones you didn't write. Why waste your time (life) on stuff that doesn't move you? That said, i sometimes sing stuff because it appalls me and I float it out there in the hope that other souls will be equally appalled. perhaps I don't want to feel alone? So I sing songs about incest, whaling, injustice, 'honour' killings and so on…I don't support them, I abhor them but if we don't speak about the dark then it remains there to threaten us. I have a mate who sings a particularly graphic version of 'Little Sir Hugh' because he's terrified that what represents it will happen again.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 01:44 PM

Thanks Paul, as ever a very thoughtful and thought provocking post.

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Bounty Hound
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 02:10 PM

'Why would you sing a song that didn't touch your innermost being?'

Because the rest of the band like the song and want to do it, because it's a song that you know will be well received by your audience, because you have been asked to do a specific song for a specific event.....

There are all sorts of possible reasons why someone might sing a song they do not particularly like, however, by and large I agree with both Paul Davenport and Brian Peters, I certainly find it easier to learn a song that I like or that says something to me (and that may have nothing to do with the lyrical content, there are several songs I perform regularly that have little to say lyrically, but are, none the less, cracking good songs).

I'll repeat what I said earlier, traditional song is 'soap opera', all human life is there, and singing a song about a specific subject does not mean that the singer condones that subject.

So with respectful nods in the direction of Paul and Brian, I'll qualify my advice to Les.

If you like the song, sing it loud and proud!

John

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 02:21 PM

Fair enoughski John

"If you like the song, sing it loud and proud!"
Can't argue with that

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 06:32 PM

If it's actually old, the song may have been meant as a teaching song. It says 'look what can happen if you go off with a stranger.'

In the late middle ages, there was a social problem where certain men traveled the countryside, marrying and abandoning one woman after another. Picture a young woman without no eduction, who's never been more than three miles from home. Where would she learn to be suspicious of a confidence man?

This kind of song may stand between that era and the era of Pretty Peggy, who lowers her eyelids demurely and tells Captain Willie to get lost, declining to wind up among the camp followers when he's tired of her.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Mar 11 - 06:38 PM

It's just an old song from a different time, an anachronism, Les has created a controvercy where there is none.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 03:31 AM

I suppose the reason I have learned songs in the past that i felt not much affinity to - and in some cases have disliked, is to learn the guitar techniques - plus you often inadvertently pick up the vocal traits of the original.

There was probably another way of learning the techniques, but I was too dim to work it out.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 04:03 AM

Hey Dave, don't you go accusing me of anything. As you well know, I guess, controvercy is rare thing on this place where people always take a long and concidered view and never overstate a case, exagerate or get personal. And neither did I!

But seriuosly, it was an honest question and most people have treated it in that way and I really value most of what people have said

L in C#

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 06:49 AM

...an old song from a different time, an anachronism..."

I can't see anything the least anachronistic about the song, apart from the horse, perhaps. It could, and I'm sure does, happen today.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 07:46 AM

in my opinion the story is superior to Lord Randall, why does anyone bother with a song such as Randall which has so little to recommend it, why not sing bbaa baa black sheep , or jack and jill, the storyline is on a par with lord randall.still as I said earlier one mans poison is another mans poisson

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:17 AM

The SONG not the deed McGrath.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 08:35 AM

'why does anyone bother with a song such as Randall which has so little to recommend it'

Well you might be going round Tesco one day,and there in the frozen section Jamie Oliver has a new line out -'eels boiled in a brew'.   If you hadn't heard that song, you might have been tempted.

just an idea.

Subject: RE: Would you sing Peggy and the Soldier
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Mar 11 - 10:49 PM

I was thinking of "The Fair Flower of Northumberland". Of course she's an unmarried teenage girl. But she elopes with a man who also calls her a whore.

Happily, when she goes home her family forgives her, at least her mother does.

And the tune is wonderful.