ipod or minidisc?

Subject: ipod or minidisc?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 08:00 AM

I know there's a wealth of threads already about the merits of minidiscs, but I didn't find much on ipods. Anyway, I'm thinking of buying myself one or t'other, and I am debating which it is to be. I have a lot of mp3s to listen to, but I will also want to record stuff (from a mic). Thing is, I'm swayed by the fact that ipods are so immensely cute and well-designed, yet a minidisc might be more versatile. I know there are many MD fans, but has anywhere been using and loving an ipod?

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:31 AM

In April the new Hi Density Mini-disks hit North American store shelves... 1 gig of data or music per 7 buck disk... that's almost 40 hours of music...

I'll stick to MD thanks...

I think I-pods look like something you'd buy from The Body Shop....

http://www.minidisc.org/part_Hi-MD_Sony.html

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:39 AM

The difference is that the IPod is a consumer device for storing files and playing them back, but doesn't have removable media, limiting the flexibility and storage capacity; and is not a recording device. Great for just listening to your favorites, though!



A

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:44 AM

But you can record onto ipods, right? Isn't there a voice recorder on the new ones?

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:45 AM

Amos made the biggest point - if you want to record - you need the MD -

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: mooman
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:47 AM

Hmmm... but the storage capacity in an iPod is usually enough to back up everything on your computer with plenty left over for recording and playback of music. All in an extremely well-designed and highly usable little package.

I don't have either but if I ever had any spare cash left over after life's necessities and buying instruments I think I would go for an iPod. But then again, I'm a confirmed Appleophile!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:50 AM

Where as I won't even run Quicktime!

LOL!

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:51 AM

I am kind of fond of the ipods, and I'm off to the States soon and could get one there while the exchange rate is still vast (Customs and Excise please disregard this comment). I'm fairly sure there's a voice recorder for ipods these days. Think I need to go and visit the apple site...
I had considered a MD, but the disc part annoys me - I'd love to manage it all with just a couple of cables...

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:57 AM

iPods are available with up to 40 gigs of memory and will work with either Mac or Windows so that's not really a problem.

I'm waiting until the price comes down on these devices.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:00 PM

Don't get me wrong, Mooman -- I have always been a loud voice in support of Apple. I love their designs and products. I don't know if the new IPods are recordable, I hadn't thought so.

A

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,Brien Pepperdine
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:01 PM

As far as I can see (and I looked 2 weeks ago) they do not record from a microphone (yet) - thought the major store selling them here in Toronto told me around Christmas time (3 months ago) a microphone input was coming.

But.... caveat -- for my use as to record live stuff and lessons it HAS to be manual record level contollable - NOT Auto Level Control.

So if Apple does come out with it then the (electret) mic input has to have auto AND manual recording (and hopefully REAL time manual, not set in advance like the SONY minidisc).

That said, I do have a SONY MD with mic input and I use it a lot to record lessons and live stuff. The manual control limit of set in advance CAN easily be circumvented by using an external battery box with a voltage controller (the bias of the electret mic element is what the manual control is doing.) Now IF I had bought the next more expensive model, IT DID have variable control for manal (joy knob or some such thing) but it was 300 dollars more...

MOST the time the set in advance manual control is fine, but sometimes real-time level control of the manual recording level would be preferred (live bands).

That said, the MD is a good device and the discs are not an issue to deal with (though for posterity to do a real time recording in to the computer and record again (sadly, analog input rather than digital) into the sound card and then save the MP3 or WAV file to a CD).

Brien
Toronto

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:01 PM

I've a Sony NetMD minidisc, my middle son has a minidisc without Net MD and my eldest is on his third MP3 player. So we've got wide experience of a range of stuff, but no iPod (yet!).

The minidisc player without NetMD would be near useless, but what we do is record using mine and play on his; this arrangement works well. The only serious problem we had was when a label peeled off a minidisc and jammed up the works, leading to a costly repair - £30. The labels and minidisc itself were Sony brand, so it is not as if we were using unsuitable labels.

As for MP3 players, my son is very keen on them, mainly because they are extremely small and lightweight, but even 256Mb of memory doesn't hold anything like one minidisc and keeping a stock of memory cards is comparatively expensive. Personally, I wouldn't swap, but neither would he.

I don't think either of us is likely to be attracted to iPod - he would find it too big and I find the minidisc perfectly adequate. Each to his own, as they say.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:06 PM

everything I find for recording on ipod's is third party plugins - additional expense above and beyond the ipod, AND not directly supported by apple.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:11 PM

Didn't Microsoft recently release something or do something that was VERY anti-Ipod???? Something about making them incompatable with the Windowz Media Player or something?

Or did I dream that?

FYI... the new HD MDs will allow Uploads of recorded media from the MD TO the PC!

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:26 PM

Am I right in thinking that the MD format gives better quality reproduction than MP3 ?

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:29 PM

sure... I guess... You'll probably need to look at the detailed system specs...

MP3s sound fine to me...

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:30 PM

I did hear that people were in dispute with Apple about the short battery life of iPODs. It would make sense, it is after all a Li-Ion battery, and you can only recharge them so many times. Apparently the cost of replacing the cells is pretty steep too. So beware Fibs, and remember that if it has a fault early on, it may not be covered in the UK. Make sure the guarantee is worldwide, and choose an MD, they are proven technology, iPod are still getting their act together in some respects.
John

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:32 PM

Yes you are. MP3s are a slightly lossy compression format, good enough for presenting musical concepts and general musical files, but not if you are particular about the details of the sound, its depth and so on. The MDR on the other hand does not compress sound and plays back in higher fidelity than MP3. It is comparable to the quality of a native AIFF file, It hink. I do not know what the sample rate (samples per second) or sample depth (bits per sample) is exactly, but this is my impression from listening to them.

A

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: kitchen piper
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:39 PM

Hi!
The iPod has a voice note recorder, but the quality is definitely not up to recording music, but I think you need to buy the software. If it's recording sessions eetc you want, then go for the mini-disc. If you want to play days and days of your fave music, then iPod. You can back up your computer, contacts, calender even do your washing. But not record in any decent way.
:-))
Vicki

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:43 PM

On Daily Planet the other day their review of the Ipod said the battery would probably last a year or 2, and then in order to replace it you'd have to send it to Apple, and it'd probably cost about 100 bucks...

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: treewind
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 02:15 PM

The cost of replacing the batteries in an iPod is : you buy a new iPod. Use once, throw away.
It is possible to change the batteries but (1) you have to find a supplier (2) they are still expensive (3) it's a tricky operation which risks damaging the iPod.

And earlier, Brian Pepperdine wrote:
the bias of the electret mic element is what the manual control is doing.
Did you make that up, or read it somewhere? Either way, it's nonsense.

By the way, if you want really classy portable digital recording, there's always PDAudio from Core sound.

Myself, I'd use a minidisc. I've even recorded an album on MD and nobody's complained about the sound, and so have many others.

One thing about MD vs. iPod - even if you can record on an iPod, does it have the editing facility of MD? That's a feature which MD owners love, and non-MD owners just don't appreciate because there's never been anything like it before.

Anahata

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 02:42 PM

Yeah, they modernized their policy on the batteries after a PR flap. You can get them replaced for a lot less than the cost of a new iPod.

A

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,Brien
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:57 PM

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:13 PM

Got my Sony mini disc recorder today. It is the MZ-N10. I also ordered the Sony ECM-MS957 Stereo Mic. I am anxious to start playing with it. We have used an older Sony MDR for a while in the band and I am knocked out at the sound quality. We loaned it to a Choral group and the Phd who directs that group said that it has revolutionized her approach to conducting. She records their practices and the quality is so good she can play back the disks and critique the practices.

I will keep you all posted on my experiences. I intend to use this for collecting songs, making simple song demos for pre-production purposes, etc.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,Brien
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:15 PM

Trying this again...
Re. the 'nonsense' comment regarding the electet mic control to achieve a manual control of recording mode, what I had read from a battery box module description was:

"The Battery Module Levels Control Option is for those using recorders that do not allow the user to change recorder levels while recording.(example: Sony minidisc recorders) we offer optional microphone output level controls. This option provides two individually adjustable slider controls (one for each channel) which allows the user to adjust the output of the battery module, effectively adjusting the recording level by changing the level of the signal going into the recorder."

It indeed does seem to me that in the use of an outboard battery box allowing manual control of recording signal levels while using a microphone that the mic element is probably being biased at a varying level by the battery box voltage level (no?), which will alter the level the recorder sees.

If one looks at the designs available at www.minidisc.org describing BOTH how to make a 9 volt source battery box AND a 'hack' to control manual recording the resultant combination (available commercically, but these are DIY) would HAVE to change the voltage the electret element sees and responds with after the plates are moved by an amplitude of sound waves.

(Remember, we are NOT talking here about dynamic mics, which produce their own small voltage by the movement of the mic elements and then presenting that as the recording signal to be amplified and/or recorded).

I realize #1 that manual control of a SONY MD portable within the device as per the manual in many cases is done digitally (internally) via attentuation steps, but in this case (external battery box and a stereo pot) it is an analog control via a potentiometer.
EVEN if one did not use the battery box (used a pot alone) the potentiometer HAS to change the voltage the MD would provide to the electret element- its simple electronics.. a resistance in-line is going to change the voltage the electet sees, which is therefore going to change the output level the MD device 'sees'.

Its a sort of weird thing with electrets (in my view) since the microphone does not have a separate voltage supply per se, nonetheless the output (manually controlled by the potentiometer) is being varied by the pot resistance and that HAS to affect the voltage the electret element is presented.

In any case, I stand by the statement that IF one wants to use a SONY MD and have easy manual recording control to deal with wide dynamic ranges of live recordings etc.(AND also get the increased performance of presenting 9 volts to the microphone via the use of a battery box) then having a battery box/module AND inserting a pot in-line will give a nice choice for manual recording (no matter what theory of electronics you decide to accept - it works).

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:07 PM

Mick, ya shoudla waited till April when the Hi-dens MDs come out...

:-)

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:05 PM

I can't imagine that I will need anything beyond this, Clinton, but we shall see. It seems to have all the capacity I need.

Talk to you soon,

Mick

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:07 PM

No such thing as too much space BM!

:-)

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:18 PM

"640K of memory should be enough for anybody."
                                     Bill Gates 1981



Actually, in point of fact, the King of the Nerds never really said that, but the attitude was pretty common at the time. So you might find yourself wanting more space one day, Mick, but hey, you gotta start somewhere. Myself, I'm waiting for the new HD MD thingies. I want the upload-to-PC capability badly.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:56 PM

Battery Boxes - Brien, I'd PM you but I can't.
I agree that especially with the newer Sony recorders that don't have a low/high sensitivity switch like my MZR30, an external attenuator is a pretty good idea.

Now, about that bias... (technophobes avert your eyes now...)
In an external battery box, it's perfectly possible to supply a constant voltage to the electret, then feed the audio though a capacitor to a conventional volume control pot.

Furthermore, if you put a DC blocking capacitor between the ground end of the pot and the actual ground, you can supply bias from the recorder at all levels of attenuation, no battery required. I've done this when making Microvox battery box clones for my own use.

The voltage across the electret will change a bit as you adjust the volume control, but that's a side-effect. The pot is attenuating the audio signal in the usual way.

With my MZR30 in the low sensitivity position, the auto level control is actually quite good unless I'm recording a loud amplified band. For any acoustic recording, it hardly ever cuts in, but I can be confident that it will not over-record. I have considered making a 20dB pad for it, with the ground cap as described as above so the electret still gets most of the bias voltage.

(ok, it's safe to look now...)

Anahata

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: lamarca
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:15 PM

The Washington Post ran an article on the iPod battery problem and the Neistat brothers short feature film iPods Dirty Secret a couple months ago. The gist of it can be found here: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/apple_ipod.html

As a result of their campaign, iPod started offering a battery replacement, but it's still expensive. The iPod was designed for the youth market; kids who are avid listeners of readily available commercial recordings and network music files, not for people interested in live recording.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,reggie miles
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:11 AM

From the link above I found that Sony is also going to include that same type of LiIon battery in some of its new Hi dens MD models that iPod is using.

Further that the PD Audio device $199 seems to be tied to its mic preamp an additional $499, and that does not include the mics! Slap on another $200 or so for something compatible, for a grand total of about $900.

It looks like the Sonys (Sonies?) are gonna run $200 - $400 depending on what features you can live with.

Most automobiles I've driven all my adult life have not cost that much. My latest, $37.50 for an '85 Toyota pu with 100,000 miles on it. It sat in the blackberry bushes for 8 years after being driven for 10 years.

If I were a rich man, laa da deedle dydle deedle dydle deedle dydle dum, all day long I'd shop for MD recorders....

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: AKS
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:22 AM

Brien, re level control; since lowering the voltage across the electret would lessen the sensitivity of the microphone, it normally is not done that way, because the frequency response might be completely different at low and high levels (ie at low levels the mic would sound totally crappy).

My guess (likewise Treewind's, I read) is that "adjust the output of the bm" means adjusting the signal going out to the recorder, not the "phantom" to the mic.

AKS

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GavDav
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 04:49 AM

depends what you want. I wouldn't be without both. You can fit all of Voice of the People on even a small iPod, and I like the fact I can have tons of trad music on the twenty gig, and use the database stuff to sort different versions of the same track etc. or compare things by the same singer at different points in time. If you do any multitrack recording then having the iPod as away to chuck uncompressed audio onto so you can listen to it out and about is also nifty. For rehearsals and stuff I use a minidisc recorder that does stuff that the iPod simply can't do. Minidisc quality is great, atrac compression is also slightly lossy but people tend to find that they don't notice it too much (it can particularly make trebly percussion sound odd though.)

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,squeezy
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 06:10 AM

I just got an iPod and it's great - took it on tour to Australia and it really helped the flights & long drives go by. I'm going to buy all the accessories - I've already got the Belkin back-up battery pack which fits on neatly and cost about AU$50 (£22ish) and gives me 20 hours of playback from 4 AA batteries (alkaline). You can get a car charger and a thing called the iTrip (not really legal in the UK as it transmits FM from the iPod to your car stereo, but you can get them from the US) - which means the internal battery issue is not really an issue for me - I'm not likely to go out on a 3 hour jog and want music piped all the way and I don't think many of us are!

Having looked in to the new MD technology, I don't think that for the price that it's that much better (definitely not as neat) - especially if the batteries will suffer the same problem.

Only time will tell if I personally get on with it - so far the only drawback I've found is that it takes bloody ages to put all your CDs on the thing - not sure how that can be fixed!

All in all I s'pose I'm just a sucker for new toys.

Cheers

Squeezy

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: sledge
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 01:50 AM

I just bought an Ipod while visiting in the US and I have to say, of the two mp3 players I had previously, this machine is the best by a long way. Very easy to use, I had mine going almost as soon as the battery had charged up with enough storage space to keep me happy for some time yet. The software that comes with it works just fine on my windows PC, Wish I had got one years ago.

Sledge

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 04:20 AM

Went into our local Sony store yesterday, and asked about the new HD version, and was told that the scheduled date for the UK is May. However the new HD equivalent of the MZ-N10 will not have a microphone socket, but the next models up will have it. Don't know about the batteries on them but if they are the same as the miPOD then I don't think I willl be buying either.
John

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 03:24 PM

Best deal IMHO: Archos FM Recorder, using RockBox software.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 03:52 PM

John... check that link I put in above...

The Sony MZ-NH700 and the Sony MZ-NHF800 both support the use of regular old AA batteries, without the need to muck around 'recharging' anything...

My NZ-707 came with a rechargable battery that I've never even used... Regular old AA last nearly forever in this thing, so I don't see the need...

And there are a few models that are coming out that don't have Mic inputs, but most do... the ones without are called "Downloaders"... For the same 250 as yer MZ N10 costs, you can get a Sony MZ-NHF800...

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,leo condie
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 04:16 PM

get an iRiver iHP-120 - its cheaper than an iPod, has a 20gb hard disk (you can get 40gb now i think) and it can record from internal and external mics, as well as line in and optical in. its godly, and it also has an FM tuner. i have one and its absolutely great. please consider other mp3 players over the ipod, its just a rip off and very popular thanks to marketing.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,A_dam_Howard
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM

I have the same problem...

Please help me as I want to buy a music player (ipod/hi-md)and can't decide which to get...

I am not that bothered with recording but I am concerned about battery life...

Another thing is the ipod's menu navigation ring thingy which looks very cool and very easy to use...

Somehow though, I am still feling that I should get one of those new Hi-md minidisc players... What do you think?

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:16 PM

Read the thread to find out what I think...

:-)

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Thank you, thank you! I've been longing for an iPod for months, and now feel much, much better!

I have a minidisc, which I use only for work. I've recorded a few discs of music, but they never turned out that well (probably my technical incompetence). But now that I know the iPod has bad battery life, I feel much less deprived.

The one thing I liked much better about the iPod (before hearing all this) was that you could record all your CDs on to it and be done with it - not having to fiddle with discs.

I'm waiting for the day when mobile phone, mp3 player, recorder, palmtop and GPS will all be the one machine.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:40 PM

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:57 PM

I dont know if this questions been answered, but
can you transfer digital output from minidisc to a pc?
I know that you can you can in analog, - I understand it has something to do with compression, but Id like to be able to record sessions or live music and burn on cd.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM

With the new Sony Hi-MD recorders, you are allowed to digitally upload analog recordings from MD to PC. You cannot upload digital recordings due to copy protection rights. So as I understand it, you could record a live concert on MD with a mic through the analog mic in jack, then transfer it digitally to PC via USB at high speed, then burn to a CD.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:33 PM

That's correct, GUEST, guest. On my new Sony, the headphone jack is also labeled line out. You run a lead from that to the line in on your soundcard. Open up your recorder on the PC, make some adjustments to the levels, hit record, then hit play on the MD. I have only done it once, and have to tinker a bit as the level was very low, but it played just the same on a boom box. HERE IS A SITE that will answer most of the "how to" questions you may have regarding the technology. I intend to use my for field recordings, as well as for rehearsing tunes for my band. I will have the fiddler and/or mando player play the tunes as I record them, take them home and transfer to a CD and then play it to practice or just memorize. Very handy, and very good sound quality.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 08:37 PM

I bought the Sony MZ-NE410 for recording music to take on the cruise ships (I took two cruises, Oct 03, and Feb04) and it has terrific sound quality. I wanted the Sony with the mic for recording capabilities but no store in town had one. My next one will be one with good recording capabilities.   My dad has an IPOD and it holds all his recorded music which is a humungous number of dowloaded and recorded LP music from his vast collection of jazz. I need the recording capability. NO new information just more data for you, Fibbs!

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

not sure if I understand your post Guest. Im not interested in uploading md recordings in ANALOG to pc, only digital. (A musician friend wanted to use it to record a cd and afterward was miffed to learn that it wasnt possible - and returned it.)

if sony has done it that way for copyright reasons its Ironic that you can easily download anything off the net
(digitaly) on the md, but not upload to pc.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From:
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:45 PM

Petr,
You CAN transfer digitally if you ALSO have a Sony or other Manufacturer's MD Deck which outputs in Optical, and have equivalent Optical Input on your sound i/o system.

Unfortunately, most of us don't have the money for such a deck.

The audio transfer is pretty good quality though. Have you tried it? Sounds pretty good.

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM

thanks Seto, I had heard about the optical out, but wasnt of the details. (Ill mention this to my friend)

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From:
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

BTW, for those who have MiniDisc units which do NOT have a microphone input, I noticed two items on this page, which would be helpful.

Preamps for MD without Microphone inputs

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From:
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

For other Sound Professional Preamps, here:

Sound Professionals Preamps

Subject: RE: ipod or minidisc?
From:
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:42 PM

Petr, here's one of those MD Decks, from Sony, ~$800US

MDS-E10