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A national anthem for England

DigiTrad:
AMERICA ('Tis of Thee)
GOD SAVE THE KING


Related threads:
My Country Isn't Thee...? (5)
Lyr Add: My Country 'Tis of Thee (18)
(origins) Origins: God Save The Queen (8)
English National Anthem (148)
(origins) Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen? (42)
Lyr Req: God Save George Washington (12)
New English 'national' anthem? (37)
God save the Queen (80)


GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Mar 04 - 04:09 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 04:12 AM
Liz the Squeak 23 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Mar 04 - 04:22 AM
Steve Parkes 23 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Mar 04 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Truthtroller 23 Mar 04 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Mar 04 - 06:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM
harvey andrews 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM
Kevin Sheils 23 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM
Dave of Mawkin 23 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 07:54 AM
songs2play 23 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM
VIN 23 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,padgett 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM
Fergie 23 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM
treewind 23 Mar 04 - 09:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM
breezy 23 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM
VIN 23 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM
Marje 23 Mar 04 - 02:11 PM
robomatic 23 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 02:30 PM
Joe_F 23 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM
lady penelope 23 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM
lady penelope 23 Mar 04 - 05:43 PM
Murray MacLeod 23 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Truthtroller 24 Mar 04 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 24 Mar 04 - 03:59 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 04 - 05:15 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 24 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 24 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM
robomatic 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM
Joe_F 24 Mar 04 - 05:47 PM
The Borchester Echo 24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM
paddymac 24 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Leslie from the US of A 04 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM
Blowzabella 05 Oct 04 - 02:52 PM
Jim McLean 05 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM
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Mr Fox 20 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM
Ruth Archer 20 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 20 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM
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The Vulgar Boatman 21 Feb 07 - 03:36 PM
Charmain 21 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM
Liz the Squeak 22 Feb 07 - 04:29 AM
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Liz the Squeak 22 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM
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Charmain 22 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM
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guitar 23 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM
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GUEST 23 Feb 07 - 12:47 PM
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Scrump 24 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 07 - 06:08 AM
GUEST,Taffy 24 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 24 Feb 07 - 12:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Feb 07 - 05:33 PM
autolycus 25 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM
Scrump 26 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM
GUEST 01 Mar 07 - 10:05 AM
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Stu 01 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM
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McGrath of Harlow 11 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM
The Sandman 11 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM
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TRUBRIT 11 Dec 07 - 10:03 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 07 - 10:46 PM
GUEST,Lindsay In Wales 12 Dec 07 - 05:47 AM
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theleveller 12 Dec 07 - 11:28 AM
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Fred Maslan 16 Dec 07 - 09:05 PM
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Subject: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM

With St George's Day looming on the horizon and English identity being on the agenda, isn't it about time that we started thinking about a national anthem? My own choice would be Blake's Jerusalem. It gives both a positive view of our past (a tad romantic and not quite accurate-Did Jesus really walk on England's soil?)and a hopeful view of the future. It also has a nice tune. I like it better than Flower of Scotland, and that's a damn fine song.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:09 AM

A Place Called England, by Maggie Holland.
eric


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:12 AM

Land of Dope and Tory, Smotherer of the free...


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM

I'd vote for 'Melting Pot' - that's what we should be aiming for, and give jingoism the boot.

(What we need is a great big melting pot,
Big enough to take the world and all it's got..)

LTS


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:22 AM

'Jerusalem' ? Perhaps if done by Billy Bragg.
Otherwise I second 'A Place called England'.

Oh, and a new patron saint. St Ashley of Hutchings?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

Poor William must have been turning without cease in his grave since Parry put Jerusalem to music! He would most emphatically not have agreed with its use as that sort of patriotic song. (And Elgar was never happy about Land of Hope & Glory, to save anyone else bringing it up.)

A good NA should be properly bloodthirsty; "An impure blood shall irrigate our furrows" looses a little in the translation, but indicates the propper spirit. "Confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks" is on the right lines, but it ought to be more to do with defending the Motherland against the evil foreign foe and less to do with better trading agreements and wider territories -- that's for the politicians, not the red-blooded citizens proudly shouting out their love for their place of birth (or chosen land, as the case may be).

Remember what that Great Briton Dr Johnson said: "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". What we want is patriotism without the scoundrels it attracts, and a song to match. (Maybe you Catters can write one?) We can't arrogate Jesus to ourselves simply because he came to our shores; He belongs to the whole world, and Nationalism isn't what He came here to promote. Look at those countries (no names, no pack drill!) where both sides claim Him as their own and scoundrels of all persuasions make mockery of His teachings.

When you hear a robin singing so prettily in your garden, just remember that he's really saying "keep off my patch, you birds, or I'll shove your beak so far down your throat you'll have to sit down to catch worms!" That's the kind of National Anthem we want! (We don't have to mean it; we just have to sound as though we do!)

Steve (Black Country/English/British and proud of it!)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:28 AM



You can't have heard the Bard of Barking do it then!
And as an anti-anthem, Billy's 'Take Down the Union Jack' would do just fine.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:52 AM

If you think about it, Melting Pot is not so far removed from Blake's Jerusalem, which incidentally, is not jingoistic. It is uplifting, tolerant, outward-looking, and non-exclusive. okay, okay, I know Parry set the poem to music in World War I to inspire England during their fight with Germany; but I think the song transends that. Also, Billy Bragg is quite interested in English Identity, as all Englishmen should be. When Scotland and Wales go, we will be on our own and then we will be forced to think about our place in the world and how we think of ourselves.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:02 AM

I quite like these lines from There Will Always Be An England.

There will always be an England
And England will be free
And if England means as much to you as England means to me
Then England must mean a very great deal to you indeed.

It describes my own patriotic sentiments. Sadly, the rest of the song gets England mixed up with Britain and is a little jingoistic. Its a shame that the song cant be re-written and updated, but with the above lines left in.

By the way, does anyone know who wrote this song?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:17 AM

What's wrong with God save the Queen you bastards!!
and we don't want a melting pot thankyou. That's why English, I repeat, ENGLISH folk music is disapearing and all we have to listen to is fucking "world music" It's not right!!!!!!!!!

T.T.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM

What is wrong with God Save the Queen? Well, it is a boring song and it has groveling lyrics. However, like you, I hate world music, but this should be for another thread.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:34 AM

There'll always be an England By Parker & Charles

Nigel


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

English National Anthem

Why start a duplicate tread?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: harvey andrews
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

I rather like "The Umbrella Man"

"Any umber-ellas, any umber-ellas to mend today...."
would make you think of England wherever you were.

Or maybe we should be the first country to not have a National Anthem, just a National tune, no dreadful lyrics.
I vote for the Archers theme tune, or the theme from Dr Who.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM

Good idea Harvey.

How about an amalgam - the Archers theme tune played by the BBC Radiophonic Workshop.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM

God Save the Queen ? for what ?
eric


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

'Rule Brittania!' Thats a good un.As an anti one, any of the sex pistols tunes from 'Nevermind the bollocks...'


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:54 AM

How about Kate Bush's Oh England My Lion Heart..great song


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: songs2play
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

Ralph McTell's England would be a cracking choice.

ENGLAND   

Ralph McTell

What is it about you, makes me feel this way?
When I'm leaving you, when I'm coming home
I'm lost for words to say.
And I know your faults and failures,
And the troubles that you've been through.
But it's more about what happens now
And what were coming to.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets,
And the sun when it shines on England
Well it lifts the heart in me.

What is it about you that took men into war?
Rows and rows of crosses, who remembers why what for?
The corners of these foreign fields,
The dust in them concealed.
Out of sight but not out of mind,
Don't you know that England feels?

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
The rain that falls on England
Well it washes care from me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

Don't make this out a battle hymn or a song for victory.
It's just a way to try to say what England means to me.
And our accents and our colours change
From the city to the farmland
From the moorland to the mountain,
From the river to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets
The wind that blows through England
Breathes its life in you and me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

From the rolling road to the winding lane,
From the field to factory,
From summer's haze to winter's glaze,
And all the colours in between.
It's a stillness in the evening.
It's the heartbeat that I'm feeling.
From Cornwall to Northumberland,
From the Pennines to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
And the wind that blows through England
Well it breathes its life in you and me.

England, oh England
England, oh England


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: VIN
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM

Anything's better than the current one. The tune is dire and the words are grovelling medieval crap that pays homage to an institution that should have been confined to the dustbin of history ages ago. Without wishing any harm to the family that have inherited this nonsence, I long for the day when we become true citizens and not 'subjects'.

As for an anthem - how about something from Vaughan Williams? That'd be nice.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM

I vote for t'Holmfirth Anthem


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Harvey - I laughed 'til I cried. The thought of our olympic champions (oxymoron?)collecting their medals and standing through the Dr Who theme was priceless in an otherwise dour day filling out a Community Fund grant form.

A crowd of 85,000 at the new wembley do do do do do do doing to the Archer's theme !

Her majesty ready to sit down to a state (paid for) banquet and having to listen to the Eastender's theme.

Once again thanks

Elfcall


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Fergie
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM

In another thread on the same subject I suggested GOD BLESS MOTHER ENGLAND.

I paste the lyrics here for your perusal and comments.

GOD BLESS MOTHER ENGLAND
(Peadar Carney)

I'll sing you a song of peace and love,
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
To the land that reigns all lands above.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
May peace and plenty be her share
Who kept our homes from want and care,
God bless Mother England is our prayer.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.

cho:
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
So we say, Hip Hooray!
Come and listen while we pray.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.

When we were savage, fierce and wild
She came like a mother to her child.
She gently raised us from the slime
Kept our hands from hellish crime,
And sent us to Heaven in her own good time.

Now our fathers oft were very bad boys.
Guns and pikes are dangerous toys.
From Bearna Baol to Bunker Hill
They made poor England weep her fill,
But ould Brittania loves us still!

Now Irishmen, forget the past!
And think of the time that's coming fast.
When we shall all be civilized,
Neat and clean and well-advised.
And won't Mother England be surprised?

Your neighbour
Fergus


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM

Harvey that's priceless.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

Yes I'd vote for Dr Who, or maybe The Archers.
If not then somthing suitably bloody about how good it is to annexe other peoples countries and treat their people as second class citizans would be suitably historic. After all that is what patriotism is all about when you get to the bones of it!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: treewind
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:36 AM

Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, The English are best!"

Anahata

PS was this supposed to be an English or British National Anthem? I think some peepul are getting confuzed.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

medieval - first time I've heard the 18th century described as "medieval".


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: breezy
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM

we should hear some of the other countries anthems and count ourselves lucky.

Only jealous of Wales are the English.

England is spoilt for choice, the English dont really sing as a nation anyway.Just listen to the rugby crowds, sweet bloody chariots, its embarrassing to be English . I blame the demise of songs being part of our musical education in schools.

In my days I remember the music teacher belting out songs on the piano and singing away that you had to sing up to be heard, but why was it always me, the outsider, and all the other little buggers sittin there mumblin'



The English do not sing, they could if they tried but its not in their culture.

Cheerio I'm off, like the preverbial clappers.

eastenders, archers haha haha ha listen to that loads o codsballs


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: VIN
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

The words may not be medieval but the sentiment certainly is i reckon.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Marje
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:11 PM

The original questioner was quite clear - how about having an anthem for England, as opposed to the British one that is shared with the rest of the UK?

But the answers show the usual confusion. When the English can sort out who they are, and remember where England ends and the rest of the UK begins, they'll be ready to start thinking about an anthem of their own.

Marje


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM

I'd like to second treewind, Flanders and Swann kind of hit the nail on the head when it comes to the purpose and use of anthi.

I kind of like 'London Calling' by The Clash. Either keep the words as they are or change 'em a bit, but wouldn't that be a great beat coming out of the Beeb?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:30 PM

National Anthems - all 192 countries

There's some good ones in there. Not too mmay. One of my favourites is Romania - give it a listen, stirring stuff.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

Has Chesterton's "Rolling English Road" ever been set to music? To this Yank, it really shines amid English patriotic poetry.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM

Fergie, that's pure gold. I'd sing it - with relish and enthusiasm - were it our anthum.

TTFN Lady P.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:43 PM

I've always had a soft spot for this one by Sir Cecil Spring-Rice, set to that nice tune wot Holst wrote...............

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love:
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace.

Though occasionally one does yearn for something with more smiting in.........................Parker!    The smith and wessons, I think.............

TTFN Lady P.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Thank you Kevin for providing the link to the previous thread.

Since this thread here has taken on a life of its own I feel justified in copying and pasting the initial post from that previous thread.



Subject: English National Anthem
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:18 AM


Since the thread on alternative American anthems created such a response, let's see if we can do something similar for the British Isles. I have long been of the opinion that Andy M Stewart's "Rambling Rover" should be the National Anthem of Scotland, but in the (unlikely) event of total independence for the Celtic countries, England is going to need a new National Anthem as well. I propose Derek Brimstone's stirring song should be adopted

I'm a fine young Englishman,
And I do the best I can
I try to be a credit to the nation
I don't ask for much at all
Just to piss my wages up a wall
And win the Duke of Edinburgh Award for fornication


Now the English are the best
An example to the rest
They all should get down on their knees and thank us
The Irish are a pest
Al except for Georgie Best
And the Scots and the Welsh are a bunch of wankers.

These are Derek's omly two verses. Some years ago I took the liberty, with his permission, of composing a middle verse which goes like this:


You can see me on the street
In Benidorm or in Lloret
As out of the pub at 5 a.m. I stagger
I may act the randy pup
But I can never get it up
After drinking sixteen pints of Carlsberg lager


I feel this song encapsulates the spirit of the modern Englishman in a way which "God Save the Queen" somehow fails to do ...................

Murray


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:00 PM

Of course "I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above" would be a fair old national anthem for any country.

But then, why shouldn't different countries have the same national anthem? When it comes to tunes of course they do, more especially the one for God Save the Queen. (For example, when England played Liechtenstein they had to play it twice.   You'd think they'd use a different key, but no - according to my book of National Anthems it's always in G.)

Actually it's not a bad tune, it's just that it's always played so ponderously. I remember hearing it on Steel Drums one Notting Hill Carnival, and it sounded pretty good.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:08 AM

SEND HER VICTORIOUS HAPPY AND GLORIOUS LONG TO REIGN OVER US.
   
      

    GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.......!!!!!!.......Just the job...unless you can identify with pissing your wages up against the wall.


      

    T.T.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:59 AM

Joe F - The Rolling English Road has been set to music. I am sure that Maddy Prior (of Steeleye Span) does a version on one of her solo albums (Flesh & Blood as a wild guess away from my CD collection. This version never struck me as anthemic.

Elfcall


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM

I set it to music mself a couple of years ago, but I never learned the words, so nobody else knows the tune.

Steve


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:15 AM

Elfacall's first posting suggest the English National Anthem would be played at the Olympics!!!!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM

I think as a Scot, that God save the queenn no! because it is about crushing the Scots, however I think that the English National anthem should be 'the soldier's song' Come on the Irish. only kidding the national anthem for England is 'here's to you sweet lovely England' sung by the Spinners.
PS
I'm not kidding about the BRITISH national anthem (God save the Queen)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM

How about "England Swings"

by Roger Miller


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

Of course they could always keep the tune and pinch the words of the American version, which could just as well apply to England (or most countries, for that matter) - no mention of America whatsoever. ("Pilgrims"? That could just as well be A nod in the direction of Chaucer and St Thomas Beckett):

My country,' tis of thee,
sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing;
land where my fathers died,
land of the pilgrims' pride,
from every mountainside let freedom ring!

My native country, thee,
land of the noble free, thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
thy woods and templed hills;
my heart with rapture thrills, like that above.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

I always liked 'My Country 'Tis' and when I was quite young got a sort of cross-cultural thrill when I was in a London Theatre and all the English stood to the same tune. 'Course I soon realized that we'd simply changed the words to what was their tune in the first place, but I have no trouble with that.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:47 PM

Elfcall & Steve: Thanks for letting me know. I would like to hear "The Rolling English Road" sung someday.

But it couldn't really be an anthem, even with an appropriate tune. After all, all those teetotal[l]ing Nonconformists are English too, aren't they? Being found in a ditch, and then growing up & going to heaven? Ah, no.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM

"A nod in the direction of Chaucer and St Thomas Beckett"

So why not have the song about Thomas Beckett's dad, 'Lord Bateman'?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM

I sorta like Fergie's idea. Kearney also wrote the "Soldiers'Song," and he was an uncle of Brendan Behan. One of those four knighted blighters from Liverpool penned a great "nominee" song suited to the purpose - "Give Ireland Back To The Irish."


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Subject: A national anthem for England and much much less!
From: GUEST,Leslie from the US of A
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

Comments on several posts above.

Bush would have the UK anthem - or for that matter, the World Anthem - be The Star Spangled Banner. Help, help, the American people are in big trouble.

As for me, my Liverpudlian mum always told me not to cadge sweets and things. Can someone tell me the derivation? I don't think it has anything to do with the townsfolk of Cadgewith? Still, Cadgewith Anthem has always been a favorite of mine.

I found the album of the gentleman whose symphony orchestra included garden hoses and hoovers. You've piqued my interest, I think I'll order it. He's a predecessor to PDQ Bach.

In Philadelphia Pennsylvania they have a New Years Day parade called the Mummer's Day Parade. Picture if you will drunken Morris dancers on steroids wearing silk pajamas and sequined, feathered matresses on their shoulders. It would be amusing if we had decent beer over here.

Have a good day.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM

whilst I agree the theme from Bonanza would be an improvement. I'm trying to think of when they use a national anthem. Olympics, the WI, trooping of the colour....

I don't think we need concern ourselves what people sing in these circumstances. i never go any of these places.

If we had She'll be coming round the mountain - everybody would join in the I-yi yippies, and perhaps this would give us an edge. Being the only song that everybody knows.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:52 PM

I'm sorry I'm feeling nautically patriotic at the moment and I like 'Hearts of Oak' or 'Rule Britannia'. I hate the term jingoistic. If you can't be patriotic when singing your national anthem, when can you be? Do any other countries have problems singing of national pride? Surely, one can be proud of one's own heritage, country and culture without being disrespectful of other peoples. If not, we might as well knock trad English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh (insert any other country here including Africa, Jamaica, Breton) music, songs and stories on the head now.

A term which is used a lot these days is 'distinctiveness and a sense of place' - please not a melting pot - lets celebrate and recognise everyone's distinctiveness. Not try to pretend that none of our nations have histories


Heck - where did all that come from. I'm sorry - I'll go and lie down for a while....


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

Blowzabella, the question posed was 'A national anthem for England' .... 'Rule Britania'? Look at yourself and read your posting!!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:54 PM

oh sod off Jim - I fancied a rant - if it was thread drift - sorry - so shoot me! (*BG*)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM

It wasn't a thread drift. I was merely pointing out that Britania isn't England.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:20 PM

Somebody back there mentioned 'the unlikely event' of the Celtic countries getting their independence. WEll, if that 'unlikely event' occurs, the English may be reminded that England was a Celtic country before the Germans and Scandinavians swiped it. The British might like it back. Some years ago we had a politician called Enoch Powell, who argued that immigrants should not be mistreated, they should merely be offered £1,000 and a ticket home. I wouldn't be so generous where the English immigrants are concerned. £20 and a ticket to Hamburg or Esbjerg would do!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

The subject has been done to death here in the past, and I do wish that people would make the tiny effort required to check the forum before embarking on yet another pointless piece of tedious repetition. Nothing new has been said here, nor is it likely to be. It will only bring the troublemakers and racists crawling out of the woodwork.

I would have expected Barrie, who I gather is a lawyer, to know that historical studies have moved on a little since the 18th century; but long-established romantic fantasies are hard to shrug off, I suppose; and the far more interesting and complex truth is less convenient in that it does not conform to the narrow mind-set of inherited prejudice.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 04:21 AM

It's all right for Barrie: he'll only have to move to Wales! (And even if they won't have him, I happen to know he's got friends in Esjberg!)

Steve
PS If they make me move back to Walsall, can I have your house, Barrie?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:09 PM

Malcolm, I'd love to know where the Anglo-Saxons did come from, if only because it'd make it easier to repatriate them.
Steve, the whole point is not having to move to Wales. We ran this show once (and I say that as an half-Welsh, part Anglko-Irish, part Breton, so there!)
Barrie


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

How about 'Old England' by The Waterboys? *walks off into the sunset giggling evilly*


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Real English Person
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

"Billy Bragg" is an oikophobe who should have nothing to do with an anthem for the English people to identify with. For God sake, the cretin would rather support Trinidad & Tabago than England in the football. He is yet another snoringly typical perpetually-adolescent cocky traitor who's targeted an English institution to subvert in the name of his utopian ideology. I'm sorry Bragg but, as superior as you so obviously are, YOU do not define what it is to be English. Thank God you are such a boring 'artist'. Keep peddling the multicult propaganda from you lilly white village in South West England!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:17 PM

When I was in Britain (1958 or so), _Punch_ (I think it was) came out with an updated "Rule, Britannia" that ended

Fool, Britannia! It never got you much.
Learn to dwi-i-i-i-indle like the Dutch.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:55 AM

oikophobe? the Greek would seem to suggest someone who dislikes his own home. Is that how you see Bragg? That's not my reading of his work.
Have a look here and see what you think.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Mr Fox
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM

I think guest means somebody who dislikes oiks, Cap'n. (Oik = an uncultured person, a yob). Figures.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM

Billy Bragg hung the Trinidaian flag from his balcony during the world cup because it's where his wife comes from. It is part of his son's heritage.

Can people now no longer celebrate their diverse heritages without being accused of not being English enough?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

Who's Billy Bragg?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:46 AM

Rule Brittania gets my vote every time. You can all really belt it out.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:54 AM

"Roots" by Show of Hands would be good :-)

Failing that, the White HareI'llgetmecoat.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Cragrat
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now by The Smiths (a popular beat combo from the 1980s).


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

Sydney Carter's EROS

Nigel


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:04 PM

The last farewell, a great inspiring song. stooped in our naval traditions and hopelessly optimistic of a great caring fair for all country.....


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:04 PM

Bonzo's   Cool Britannia


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Crane Driver
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:15 PM

Once again - England is NOT the same as Britain!!!! Britain is the island shared by the English, Welsh and Scots. The United Kingdom is Britain plus Northern Ireland.

"God save the Queen", for all its faults, is currently the national Anthem of the UK, not of England - that's why the English footie team gets booed for using it when playing against Wales or Scotland. GStheQ should only be used by teams that represent the whole of the UK, not just one region of it - the UK Olympic team is entitled to use it, the England footie boys are not.

Of course the English should have their own anthem. The cricket team uses "Jerusalem" - why not? The rugby team uses "Sweet Chariot", mainly because it has rude gestures - appropriate? English athletics (at the Commonwealth Games) used "Land of Hope & Glory", which hardly seems accurate these days. Hopefully the English will be able to choose something that fits - not for me to suggest anything.

What's wrong with GStheQ as a national anthem, someone asked. Mainly what's wrong is that its not about pride in your country but about subservience to an individual and her dysfunctional family. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your own country, as long as you allow other people to be proud of theirs, and don't use patriotism as an excuse to attack them.

Rant over.

Andrew


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:54 PM

I suggest John Cages 4 42 of silence,every religous denomination including the quakers and the yogists would be happy with that.wouldnt it be great to have everyone singing silence,how kind it would be to the tone deafers.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: eddie1
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:00 AM

Great idea Cap'n B - what wonderful opportunities for silent harmonies!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:06 AM

Old England (written by Colin Radcliffe and John Meeks) would be appropriate. It ends:

Will the last to leave Old England
Please turn out the light.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM

My problem with GSTQ as our national anthem is that its not about our nation its about a person.
We should have two new ones - one for England so we can sing it when we play sport against other UK teams and one for Britain that is about Britain - or at the very least mentions the name of the place!
I'd personally vote Jerusalem for the former and Land of Hope and Glory or Rule Britannia for the latter.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:28 AM

Billy Bragg's wife is from Trinidad........yes but she's white which I assume makes her a member of the 'colonial ruling class.' Oh, and Cliff Richard's an Indian?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:34 AM

I and many others think God Save The Queen has a fairly boring and uninspiring tune (the lyrics are not exactly inspiring either, IMO).

For a British (as opposed to English) anthem, it would be better to have a rousing tune such as Rule Britannia or Land of Hope & Glory, but as others have said, the lyrics may not be as appropriate today as they once were.

For England, I don't know any existing song that would really fit the bill, having a good tune and lyrics appropriate to today. It would be better to write a new anthem. Maybe we could do it here as a joint effort, as per Jim Lad's songwriting by committee attempt.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:36 AM

I cannot think of a more appropriate song than Maggie Holland's "A place called England".


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:56 AM

"she's white which I assume makes her a member of the 'colonial ruling class."

Who are you to make such assumptions? She comes from Trinidad, she has pride in her background, she's passed that pride onto her son...that's all that matters in this context.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

Good call, George - it's an excellent song. Not the best tune in the world (the Welsh or the French can probably fight it out for honours on that one) but excellent sentiments.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

And who are you to ask me that?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

Come on, Terry, Ruth makes a fair point; i.e. there is no need to second-guess other people's motives. Ruth's aggressively-phrased question was commesurate with your attack on the motives of BB's wife. Let's not escalate further.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:47 AM

I agree - Cripes - can we lay off the cross-patch stuff and get back to the point - apparantly somewhere on t'internet there is a petition nominating Gold by Spandeau Ballet as the new national anthem - how do we feel about that?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

I'm sorry if my question was phrased aggressively - it was not meant to be. I don't know what Juliet D-W's background is, apart from the fact that she grew up in Trinidad. I simply thought it was a bit harsh to make assumptions one way or another, just because she hung a flag outside her house during the world cup that happened to not be English.

Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:01 AM

Fair response to the statement, Ruth.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Alec
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:11 AM

Going back to Charmain's point,I am pleased most Internet petitions come to nought.
"Gold" by Spandau Ballet as National Anthem is one of the most preposterous suggestions to come out of the Net, yet.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Tery McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM

OK, George, fair point! And Ruth.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:26 AM

IMO, a better choice than 'Gold' would be There'll Always Be An England (written in 1940 by Ross Parker & Harry Par-Davies). A stirring tune, and the lyrics are:

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Which would fit in rather well with the government's attempts to send us all to work on foot, don't you think? ;-)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:35 AM

I read recently -in a book of silly lists that I got for Christmas- that the tune for "God Save The Queen/King" was not an English tune in the first place.
Apparently it was originally a song written by French nuns praying for a successful outcome of their King's operation for piles.
I forget the exact wording of the original French version- but "God save our King" would be a fair translation.
So amongst the reasons for wanting a new national anthem, i.e
It's a dirge.
It presumes on an ongoing war with the Scots.
It's a prayer to a Militiary Specification God.
we can add:-
It's a rip-off of a French song anyway.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:40 AM

Jerusalem, hands down. Because it is so english.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

I like Scrump's choice - are there any more lyrics to that one and where can it be heard?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

Hi Charmain. The words can be found on the web (see below - these are from one site I found). Bear in mind that it was a patriotic song written in wartime, so it may be that all the lyrics wouldn't be as appropriate today. But I don't see why they couldn't be tweaked. I would think the original authors wouldn't mind too much if they knew their song would be the new national anthem.

Also, some of the lyrics refer to Britain. Until relatively recently, people would often say 'England' when they meant 'Britain'. Thanks to the Scots and Welsh nationalists, this is no longer the case (I'm saying this is a positive thing, btw, Scots and Welsh readers!).

I guess we would want to replace 'Britain' by 'England' in the song if it were to be the English national anthem. It also refers to 'red white and blue' which of course are the British colours rather than England's.

Having said the above, I don't think the lyrics are particularly controversial or politically incorrect (but I fully expect somebody will find them so).

Here are the lyrics:

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry
While there is still one voice to cry - - -

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Red, white and blue; what does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud, shout it aloud,
"Britons, awake!"
The Empire too, we can depend on you.
Freedom remains. These are the chains
Nothing can break.
There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.

I found an mp3 by Jill Daniels here which should give you an idea of the tune. There's also a MIDI version there.

If anyone comes up with some alternative lyrics to replace the slightly inappropriate ones above, I'd be interested to see them.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:39 AM

How about this...

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry
While there is still one voice to cry - - -

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

England through and through?
What does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud, shout it aloud,
"People, awake!
To your country be true"
She depends upon you.
Freedom remains.
These are the chains
Nothing can break.

There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Songster Bob
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

How about sending 'em "This Land Is Your Land," with the place-names changed, of course? After all, we're not using it much.

For that matter, they can have a Constitution we're not using, as well.

Bob


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:36 PM

Alex Glasgow

When God created Englishman he must have felt quite proud,
That noble creature brave and strong who stands out in a crowd,
He loves his country right or wrong,
He tolerates some wogs,
But nothing does he hate as much as cruelty to dogs.

In years gone by he beat his slaves from here to Samarkand,
And never stopped until he'd built an empire strong and grand,
He beat the French, the Dutch the Hun,
Drove the Irish from their bogs,
But all the time he ne'er forgot to love his puppy dogs.

In England's green and pleasant land there's room for Kings and Queens,
And noble folk who understand what sensibility means,
They hunt the fox, the hare, the grouse,
They set the stag at bay,
And afterwards they pay their dues to the R S P C A.

Has it all, really...


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

Songster Bob wrote:
How about sending 'em "This Land Is Your Land," with the place-names changed, of course? After all, we're not using it much.

For that matter, they can have a Constitution we're not using, as well.


Cheers Bob - we could do with a written constitution we've not had one since King John promised each of his barons seven pigs apiece in 1215 - I mean they're nice things just to kind of have around even if all you do is take them out and dust them once in a while!

And cheers for the song aswell its a good one - tho' I think our Billy (The afore-mentioned Billy Bragg of previous postings) already half-inched it a while back - or tried too at least!!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:29 AM

Today's useless but pertinent information. The Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) was formed long before the National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC). Seems we were kinder to our dogs than to our children.

LTS


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:07 AM

Charmain, your words to There'll Always Be An England are just the job - well done :-)

I'll vote for that for the English National Anthem. It's a good tune too, isn't it? Imagine it being sung by a crowd (instead of just one woman on that link I found).


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:09 AM

Today's useless but pertinent information. The Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) was formed long before the National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC). Seems we were kinder to our dogs than to our children.

How is that pertinent to an English National Anthem, LTS?

(I don't dispute your point, I just wondered why you posted it in this thread)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:13 AM

Wahey! 100, and I didn't know it!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:37 AM

It was pertinent to the penultimate posting to mine by the Vulgar Boatman, which stated that we weren't cruel to dogs anymore.

Rotten sod.. I was going for my 4th '00' of the day!

LTS


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:45 AM

How about "Sorry seems to be the hardest word" :0)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:49 AM

Some people are just plain greedy when it comes to '00's! :-)

(Oops! another apology due. Sorry, I didn't connect your comment with the Alex Glasgow song)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM

Cheers Scrump!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 07:39 AM

Well, if you want jerusalem to be the English national anthem then you can vote for it here:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Anthems/

And there is actually an organisation/ website campaigning for an english anthem. You can find it here:

http://anthem4england.co.uk/
http://anthem4england.co.uk/modules/wordpress/

And for debates about the english national anthem and englisness in general see here:

http://www.thecep.org.uk/news/

hope it helps....


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 10:30 AM

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before - but does anyone else remember Billy Connolly suggesting that we should adopt the theme from 'The Archers' as our National Anthem because it's more cheerful than the one we've got? I've always thought that was a good idea.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:02 AM

we should adopt the theme from 'The Archers' as our National Anthem

But it would need words writing for it - any takers?

Or should we all go:

Dum, de dum, de dum, de dum
Dum, de dum, de dum, click

(I believe that's the whole tune, isn't it?)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: guitar
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

as a Scot I think it either be Jeruslem (blake) or one by the Spinners called 'here's to sweet lovely England, both great songs and both which I love.

Tom


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,English Jon
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 08:24 AM

How about the agincourt carol?

or given that the royals are all german, how about the slow movement from Haydn quartet op.75?

Cheers,
Jon

I recorded the famous bit out of Jupiter from holst's planet suite a while back - don't really hold with jingo-ism, but it's a great bit of English music.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 12:47 PM

Ohhhhhhhh. I do like the idea of the Agincourt carol.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:14 AM

The theme from the Archers, eh? Hmm, let's see...

Village greens and corner shops,
that to me is England
fragrant fields with summer hops,
that is England too.
   Signs that say "tonight we fry",
   fish and chips for tea,
   bobbies that you ask for time,
   ice cream by the sea,
      "Kiss me quick" and candyfloss
      jellied eels and winkles,
      all of that and so much more
      England is to me.

Blowing chunks on Friday night,
that to me is England
schoolkids that can't read or rite,
that is England too.
   Pubs with giant TV screens,
   shops all boarded up,
   broken noses, broken dreams,
   "Watford for the Cup",
      Fun that's measured by the pint,
      politics with spin,
      nowhere better will you find -
      England, where 've you been?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:17 AM

Steve Knightley, eat your heart out! :-)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 06:08 AM

Arthur Conan-Doyle - Song of the Bow

What of the bow?
The bow was made in England:
Of true wood, of yew-wood, The wood of English bows;
So men who are free Love the old yew-tree
And the land where the yew-tree grows.

What of the cord?
The cord was made in England:
A rough cord, a tough cord, A cord that bowmen love;
And so we will sing Of the hempen string
And the land where the cord was wove.

What of the shaft?
The shaft was cut in England:
A long shaft, a strong shaft, Barbed and trim and true;
So we'll drink all together To the grey goose-feather
And the land where the grey goose flew.

What of the mark?
Ah, seek it not in England,
A bold mark, our old mark Is waiting over-sea.
When the strings harp in chorus, And the lion flag is o'er us,
It is there that our mark will be.

What of the men?
The men were bred in England:
The bowmen--the yeomen, The lads of dale and fell.
Here's to you--and to you! To the hearts that are true
And the land where the true hearts dwell.

One of our club residents, Ged Todd, has set it to music and included a chorus -

The flax, the feather and the yew
Together in England grew
And with hearts so true
Brought glory to this land

Gets my vote :-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Taffy
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

And what of the song?
The song was made in Scotland!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:58 PM

But Conan Doyle spent most of his life in southern England, and is buried there. He couldn't choose where to be born, or to choose his (Irish) parents, but could choose where to live.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:33 PM

Whan the Scots or Irish start writing songs praising the English it must tell you something...

:D


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

How about a world anthem?






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

World anthem? How about We Are The World?

Maybe we need an anthem for our Solar System. Rise Up Like The Sun? The Sun Has Got His Hat On, Hip Hip Hip Hooray!

:)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:05 AM

How about Kate Bush's "Lionheart" ?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM

Has no-one suggested He Is An Englishman from HMS PInafore by G+S?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 10:46 AM

I still vote for the modified version of "There'll Always Be An England" above. It's got what an anthem should have - a stirring tune and uplifting words.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Stu
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 12:27 PM

"but about subservience to an individual and her dysfunctional family"

Not all of us - don't believe everyone in England subscribes to the dubious values of the Royal Family.

I find it interesting how little the English identify with their Celtic heritage. Although many of the main artefacts (both physcical and cultural) are relatively well known, they are never identified as being Celtic. Indeed, the English are far more aware of their pre-Celtic heritage which is obviously so visible in many areas.

Shame, really.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 05:51 AM

"but about subservience to an individual and her dysfunctional family"

Not all of us - don't believe everyone in England subscribes to the dubious values of the Royal Family.


True. You can be proud of your country and be a republican. That's why I favour an anthem that doesn't mention the royal family or other dubious aspects such as the building of empires at the expense of other countries, or celebrating victories over other countries in war. The most important aspect to me, that I would like to see in an anthem, is the freedom we enjoy, fought for and won by our forefathers, and which I regret is continually being eroded by the present government.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Gavin Atkin
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 07:27 AM

What Celtic heritage are you thinking of Stigweard?

Apart from the Cornish, I didn't think we had one, so I tried Google, and the first page didn't turn up much evidence.

Gav


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:07 AM

nelly the elephant or lip up fatty


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Stu
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 11:03 AM

"What Celtic heritage are you thinking of Stigweard?"

Good question. Try these for starters:

Well, Wikipedia has an several interesting articles on this subject here, or here to get up and running.

Extant Celtic traditions in England (as well as Scotland) are discussed in the excellent book Twilight of the Celtic Gods, which will can get for considerably less on ebay or by borrowing at your local library.

And that's before I mention King Arthur (a tradition still shared with our Celtic neighbours), The Battersea Shield, Lindow Man, Boudicaa etc etc etc.

My opinion is most of the indiginous population of our Islands are probably decended from the people who arrived after the last ice age. The following periods (Beaker people, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Normans etc) have seen successive cultural shifts rather than actual mass movement of populations we know many British (Celts or whatever) adapted readily to the Roman lifestyle for instance.

This is borne out by DNA studies on very ancient Britons, such as Cheddar Man. His decendant opened the local exhibition about the subject.

I think I prefer the idea of our Islands without borders which is the land our Celtic ancestors would have known before the Roman invasion.

A national anthem for England? I like Spancil Hill.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: guitar
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

as a scot I tihnk that England Anthem should be Blake's Jersluem (pardon the spelling)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: guitar
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:22 PM

C Doyale was born in Scotland, but hey he did live in England


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Scott The Gent
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Does anyone know if I can find the Arthur Conan-Doyle - Song of the Bow music anywhere or do people just have the lyrics?

to_scott@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

Here you are, Scott (I just typed Song of the Bow into Google, and it came up in the first entry) :

What of the bow?
The bow was made in England:
Of true wood, of yew wood,
The wood of English bows;
So men who are free
Love the old yew tree
And the land where the yew tree grows.

What of the cord?
The cord was made in England:
A rough cord, a tough cord,
A cord that bowmen love;
So we'll drain our jacks
To the English flax
And the land where the hemp was wove.

What of the shaft?
The shaft was cut in England:
A long shaft, a strong shaft,
Barbed and trim and true;
So we'll drink all together
To the gray goose feather
And the land where the gray goose flew.

What of the men?
The men were bred in England:
The bowman--the yeoman--
The lads of dale and fell
Here's to you--and to you;
To the hearts that are true
And the land where the true hearts dwell.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

fings aint wot they used to be,might be apt.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 05:52 PM

Couldn't thing the tune for Song of the Bow online - but here's a CD which contains the tune Florence Aylward put to it.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:03 PM

My choice would have to be Jerusalem -- which started thisthread. Thisyear at the Getaway we did a mummers play and ended up singing a rousing version of Jerusalem...such fun!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 07 - 10:46 PM

Just a thought-
Do the English really want to use an anthem that's under copyright? T'would make a pretty penny for the composer/author.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Lindsay In Wales
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 05:47 AM

I would vote for "The Yeomen Of England" from the operetta "Merrie England" by Edward German and Basil Hood. First performed in the Savoy Theatre in 1904.

Where are the yeomen, the yeomen of England?
In homestead and in cottage
They still dwell in England
Stained with the ruddy tan
God's air doth give a man
Free as the winds that fan
The broad breast of England

And nations to eastward
And nations to westward
As foemen may curse them
The Yeomen Of England
No other land could nurse them
But their mother-land Old England
And on her broad bosom shall they ever thrive


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Rog Peek
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 08:36 AM

Ralph McTell's 'England' would get my vote.

Certainly couldn't sing 'God Save The Queen', I'd choke on it!

Rog


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 08:38 AM

My vote would be for:

Coronach
(Words and music by David Palmer - with a little help from Shakespeare)

Grey the mist, cold the dawn;
Cruel the sea and stern the shore.
Brave the man who sets his course
For Albion.

Sweet the rose, sharp the thorn;
Meek the soil, proud the corn.
Blessed the lamb that would be born
Within this green and pleasant land.

Brown furrows shine beneath the rain-washed blue.
Bright crystal streams from eagle mountains pour.
Fortune has smiled on those who wake anew,
Within this fortress nature built to stay the hand of war.

With the wind from the east
Came the first of those to tread
Upon this stone, this throne of kings;
This realm, this new Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:28 AM

Why on earth do we need a national anthem? They're mostly just jingoistic crap. Patriotism doesn't need the type of manufactured emotional outpouring we see Americans indulge in (land of the free, my arse). What could be more dignified when (if) we ever win anything ever again, than just standing in silence for a minute or so and contemplating the moment?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 11:58 AM

I still think Yellow Submarine would be a great choice - especially with its lines

"Our friends are all aboard,
Many more of them live next door"


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 12:45 PM

leveller, good point ,I did suggest earlier, John Cages4 minutes whatever


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 03:16 AM

Apologies for missing that, cap'n. Silence is even more effective when it has a title.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Dec 07 - 01:57 PM

I enjoy many national anthems. Often they can be the most entertaining parts of international sporting occasions.Here is a website with words and tunes, including the details for the ones that have been scrapped and replaced over the years. (One of my favourites is the Romanian one - written 1848, but only adopted as the national anthem in 1990.)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 07:32 AM

Hooray! Hooray!
I'm glad to be Brit
I went abroad on holiday
And found that it was shit


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Dec 07 - 08:01 PM

That wouldn't count as an English national anthem.

Though I suppose the only people who might ever call themselves "Brits" would in practice be English. And not too many of them.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 06:14 AM

Yes McGrath, and most of them would probably be living abroad.

Rog


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Subject: Lyr Add: SAINT GEORGE (John Kirkpatrick)
From: Mikefule
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 09:11 AM

A difficult one. I am generally against "nationalism" because it strays so easily into jingoism, but I think England is a great place to live and we have a lot to be proud of. I don't like "God Save the Queen" because the main thrust of it's argument relies on a request to a God I do not believe in supporting an institution I do not believe in.

Below are the lyrics to a John Kirkpatrick song, which has a chorus that is easy to sing. Being an atheist, I'm not entirely in favour of saints, but I can grit my teeth and regard St. George as a metaphor. Certainly the English dragon-killing chivalrous knight never existed, so we can make of him whatever we wish. The "real" St. George was born in Israel, a soldier in the Italian army, and is patron saint of Portugal, Canada and Macedonia, if I remember correctly. How melting pot is that?

Saint George
From John Kirkpatrick

I am St. George. I'm a champion bold,
And over old England my flag I'll unfold.
My sword fights for justice, with truth for my shield,
And when I come riding I never shall yield.

CHORUS: And on my breast, a red red rose,
The flower of old England wherever she grows.

I fought with a dragon and brought it to shame.
I was killed seven times but I still fought again.
I was killed seven times but it did me no ill.
If the battle be true, then I'll fight again still.

In the cause of all freedom, my banner shall wave.
The oppressed and down trodden my sword it shall save.
In the righting of wrongs, I never shall tire.
That the weak become strong is all my desire.

I'll watch o'er your horses, your house and your land,
And if you have none, still your friend I will stand.
I'll strengthen your courage for all you hold dear,
To vanquish all doubt, and banish all fear.

Now be sure in your heart if you call on my name,
For I fight with a fury of fire and flame.
Any lies or deceit, to a cinder I'll burn,
And once you invoke me, I never shall turn.

For I have the power to pierce to the heart.
I strike like the lightning. I can tear you apart.
On hoof-beats of thunder, o'er England I'll ride.
What foe can defy you with me by your side?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 12:47 PM

Anything written by Ray Davies *LOL*


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Jock
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 06:14 PM

'Land of dope and tory,
Smotherer of the free ...'


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 07:37 PM

Then of course there is always Mad Dogs and Englishmen...


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:16 PM

"or given that the royals are all german"

We-e-e-e-ll, the Queen, her children and grandchildren were all born in the UK. I'm fairly certain that endows them with British nationality. And the Queen's husband was born on Corfu, which surely makes him a Corfiot?

Not many Germans there.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Anything by Ray Davies-- what about Waterloo Sunset????? Certainly an anthem to a city if not a country......


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

"what about Waterloo Sunset?????"

Actually I had that song in mind when I thought about Ray Davies songs as anthem. The Village Green Preservation Society also has a number of pieces that might be considered.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Fred Maslan
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:05 PM

From a country that didn't have an official anthem till the 1930's, I'd say you're better off without one. The "star spangled banner" is basicaly unsingable to begin with and when someonne sings it a little bit jazzy or "interpreted". people get uptight. Anthems become sanctified and sacrosanct, immutable and untouchable and ultimately meaningless. It's not worth it, don't do it.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:53 PM

Nothing unsingable about the Star Spangled Banner, if pitched right. The tune is a pleasant drinking song with room for enjoyable harmonies. Sounds pretty terrible when sung with excessive emotion. Or "interpreted", which sounds to me a pretty disastrous notion with any anthem.

The fashion for treating anthems as opportunities for hyped-up solo singers to show off is much to be lamented. The thing to do is just play the tune, and leave it up to the crowd or the players or whatever to sing along if they feel up to it.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Steve W
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 06:55 AM

Speaking of this subject, I've just launched a government e-petition calling for "Oh England, My Lionheart" to be adopted as the English National Anthem (England doesn't currently have one of its own. We have to use the overall UK anthem instead). If it receives 100,000 signatures, the matter has to be considered by parliament. Therefore I'd be grateful to any British visitors who take the time to sign it.

The petition can be signed here: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12159

Thanks for your time. :)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:37 AM

You must be joking Steve W, it's bloody appaling, not even the slimmest chance of even getting 100,000 sigs let alone being accepted.

By the way, are you the author of it ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:40 PM

"Queen, her children and grandchildren were all born in the UK. I'm fairly certain that endows them with British nationality"

And of course she can trace her British ancestry back more than a millenium on both the English and Scottish sides


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

June Tabor singing Maggie Holland's "A Place Called England".


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:22 AM

I thought this was an interesting collection of English anthems.
Source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/rulebritannia.asp#Rule Britannia

Modern History Sourcebook:
British Imperialistic Anthems
Rule Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory, and more

Although many of these songs are quite long, in most case only parts are sung. Those parts are highlighted.


Rule Britannia

*Click here for a MIDI file of Rule Britannia or a much livelier version
*Click here for a Real Audio file of Rule Britannia

[Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ]

When Britain first, at heaven’s command,
Arose from out the azure main,
Arose, arose, arose from out the azure main.
This was the charter, the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang the strain.

Rule Britannia!
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

The nations not so blest as thee,
Must in their turn to tyrants fall,
Must in their turn, must in their turn,
To tyrants fall,
While thou shall flourish,
Shall flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.

Chorus.

Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke.
More dreadful, more dreadful
From each foreign stroke.
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.

Chorus.

Thee haughty tyrants ne’er shall tame,
All their attempts to bend thee down,
All their attempts, all their attempts
To bend thee down,
Will but arouse thy generous flame.
But work their woe and thy renown.

Chorus.

To thee belongs the rural reign,
Thy cities shall with commerce shine,
Thy cities shall, thy cities shall
With commerce shine.
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.

Chorus.

The muses still, with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair,
Shall to thy happy coast,
Thy happy coasts repair,
Best isle of beauty,
With matchless beauty crowned,
And manly hearts to guard the fair.

Chorus.

Land of Hope and Glory

*Click here for a MIDI file of Land of Hope & Glory or an inferior version [Pomp & Circumstance, #1]
*Click here for a Real Audio file of Land of Hope and Glory

[Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ]

The music is Sir Edward Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 of 1902. During World War I, it was used as the theme for part of a poem by A. C. Benson (1862-1925) [the homosexaul Catholic convert son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, if memory serves right], by the music hall star Marie Lloyd. It was immediately adopted as perhaps the second most sung national song after God Save the King. Perhaps the reason was that it can be sung with much more gusto.

Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned.
God make thee mightier yet!
On Sov'ran brows, beloved, renowned,
Once more thy crown is set.
Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained,
Have ruled thee well and long;
By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained,
Thine Empire shall be strong.

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

Thy fame is ancient as the days,
As Ocean large and wide:
A pride that dares, and heeds not praise,
A stern and silent pride:
Not that false joy that dreams content
With what our sires have won;
The blood a hero sire hath spent
Still nerves a hero son.

God Save the Queen [or King]

*Click here for a MIDI file of God Save the Queen
*Click here for a Real Audio file of God Save the Queen

[Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ]

God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us.
God save the Queen!

O Lord our God arise.
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks.
On thee our hopes we fix.
God save us all!

The choicest gifts in store.
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign!
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

The British Grenadiers

*Click here for a MIDI file of the British Grenadiers or a much faster version [second tune]

Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules,
Of Hector and Lysander, and such great names as these,
But of all the world’s great heroes,
There’s none that can compare,
With a tow, row row row , row row row,
To the British Grenadiers.

None of these ancient heroes ne’er saw a cannon ball,
Nor knew the force of powder to slay their foes with all,
But our brave boys do know it and banish all their fears,
Sing tow, row row row , row row row,
For the British Grenadiers.

When e’er we are commanded to storm the palisades,
Our leaders march with fuses, and we with hand grenades;
We throw them from the glacis about the enemies’ ears,
Sing tow, row row row , row row row,
For the British Grenadiers.

And when the siege is over, we to the town repair.
The townsmen cry ‘Hurrah, boys, here comes a Grenadier’.
Here come the Grenadiers, my boys, who know no doubts or fears.
Sing tow, row row row , row row row,
For the British Grenadiers.

So let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those,
Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the louped clouthes.
May they and their commanders live happy all their years.
Sing tow, row row row , row row row,
For the British Grenadiers.


Jerusalem

The melody from 1916 is by Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, (1848-1918) and was used for an old poem by William Blake 1757-1827. The entire hymn is always sung. It was especially associated with the Women's Institute and Labour Party conferences.

*Stuart Jeffries: Beyond Jerusalem: an article on Hubert Parry as a composer [At The Guardian]

*Click here for a MIDI file of Jerusalem or here for a slightly soppier version
*Click here for a Real Audio file of Jerusalem
*Click here for a Real Audio file of Jerusalem [diff. rendition]

[Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ]

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark satanic mills.

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O Clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land!


I Vow to Thee, My Country

The lyrics were written January 12, 1918 by Cecil Spring-Rice (1859-1918). The music from Gustav Holst (1874-1934) Planets suite (the hymn from Jupiter). In its hymn form it is known as Thaxted. The hymn was first performed in September 1918. Famous as Princess Diana's favorite hymn, it was sung at her wedding and funeral. It had long been a staple of British school assemblies.

Click here for a MIDI file of I Vow to Thee My Country or faster version

I VOW to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love:
the love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
that lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
the love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there’s another country, I’ve heard of long ago,
most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
we may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
and soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
and her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace.

 


Source:


This text is part of the Internet Modern History Sourcebook. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts for introductory level classes in modern European and World history.

Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use of the Sourcebook.

© Paul Halsall, July 1998
halsall@murray.fordham.edu


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:53 AM

A friend of ours, while working as a visiting speaker on theatre at London schools, took the opportunity to record some of the childrens' songs, rhymes and games.
He was given this gem from a pupil at an East London school:

"Rule Britannia,
Marmalade and jam.
Five Chinese crackers up your arsehole,
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang."

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:03 AM

I think the National Anthem should be instrumental, emotive, instantly recognised & so beloved of the people that it stirs joy into the hearts on account of its quintessential Englishness. To this end I suggest Ron Grainer's venerable Old Ned, better known, of course, as the theme from Steptoe & Son.

Otherwise, as the good old anarchist slogan had it: I will not stand for the National Anthem.

For the benefit of our American viewers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7ly_tp-9SY


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:14 AM

I have always thought that the opening lines of I Vow To Thee... are grounds for divorce: "Entire & whole & perfect the service of my love"? "Entire"? What about one's wife or husband, then: don't they get any???

Nobody seems to have mentioned what has always seemed to me the main thing to be said in favour of the present one

~~ its delightful brevity.

When one has sat, waiting for the match to begin, thru some interminable boring tune in three distinct parts lasting about three whole minutes from some visiting nation, it's so lovely to know when they strike up our anthem that in a very few seconds [fewer than 30, I make it, including the opening drum roll] it will be over and the teams can get on with it.

As to the words: well, not that inspiring, but they are what we have; not particularly broke, so why bother to fix? A traditionally revered figurehead of state seems to me as worthy of standing as symbol of the nation as a starry or tricolor flag fluttering in the breeze.

As for the truculent "watch it you foreigners" element that some above have expressed desire for, as in watering plough-furrows with enemy blood like that lot just over there, or banners waving under gunfire like that other lot a bit further off in the other direction ~~ surely all that is subsumed under the one key word "Victorious"?

So, again ~~ If it ain't bust, don't fix it ~~ one of the wisest of all proverbs IMO.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:33 AM

Oh well, IF we have to have a national English anthem - all part of the National Cliché such as we see in tat shops down Oxford Street: namely, models of London buses, the union flag (always wrongly called the jack), bowler hats, model pillar boxes, etc., etc. - then let's have one which nails the Little Englanders' colours to the mast.

Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

The English, the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours,
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers,
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot,
you'll find he's a stinker or not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we 're all well aware,
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair,
He eats salted porridge, he works all the day,
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way.

The English; the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!

The Irishman, now, our contempt is beneath,
He sleeps in his boots and he lies in his teeth,
He blows up policemen (or so I have heard),
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third.

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price!

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can,
And little and dark, more like monkey than man,
He works underground with a lamp in his hat,
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and
FLA-A-A-T.

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much,
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch;
The Germans are German, the Russians are Red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed.

The English are moral, the English are good,
And clever and modest and misunderstood!

And all the world over, each nation's the same,
They've simply no notion of Playing the Game:
They argue with umpires; they cheer when they've won;
And they practise beforehand, which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best:
So up with the English, and down with the rest!

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad ...
It's knowing they're FOREIGN that makes them so mad!
For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald
(Michael!) and me!!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

Thanks, Will, for reminding us of Flanders and Swann, certainly among the flower of English humour. The adequate flag is of course the St George's cross. Sometimes it takes a divorce to become good friends, as purported in the case of Czechs and Slovaks. The Jack was originally the flag hoisted on the foremast, and could now well be replaced by the flag of the United Nations, bypassing the European Union (serves them right in Brussels!).


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 10:34 AM

I can't quite see why the likes of Rule Britannia or the British Grenadiers would be regarded as suitable for being specifically an English anthem!

Incidentally, as an aside, the words of Rule Britannia were written by Scottish poet James Thomson who was born in the tiny village of Ednam just outside of my home town of Kelso. Henry Francis Lyte who wrote the words for Abide With Me comes from the same tiny village. As did Captain Cook's father but that isn't quite so impressive :-)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:46 PM

Remember, Allan, that the piece I posted was titled "British Imperialistic Anthems." I don't think the author was proposing them for current use.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:57 PM

I wasn't commenting on the piece as much as your own introduction to it. "I thought this was an interesting collection of English anthems" Was just pointing out that for instance the words to Rule Britannia are about Britain as a whole and not just England = and they were written by a Scot. It isn't an English anthem.

I know us non-English Brits can be a but pernickity about that but you should be used to it by now :-)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:36 PM

Actually when you look at the words, Rule Britannia isn't particularly imperialst - the words aren't about ruling other countries, they're about controlling the sea so as to ensure that "Britons never shall be slaves", in line with the principle laid down in court in the Sixteenth Century (though frequently ignored subsequently) that English law did not recognise slavery on its soil.

People often read subsequent history into National Anthems. People listen to the US Anthem, and hear it as about an overwhelming world power, rather than the relatively weak country struggling desperately to hold on to its independence. In the same way Britain in 1740, when Rule Britannia was written (by a Scot as has been pointed out) wouldn't have felt by any means a dominant country in Europe.

Not that that's got anything to do with a possible English anthem - Rule Brittania would never do.


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