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A national anthem for England

DigiTrad:
AMERICA ('Tis of Thee)
GOD SAVE THE KING


Related threads:
My Country Isn't Thee...? (6)
Lyr Add: My Country 'Tis of Thee (18)
(origins) Origins: God Save The Queen (8)
English National Anthem (148)
(origins) Origins: Composer/Texter of God Save the Queen? (42)
Lyr Req: God Save George Washington (12)
New English 'national' anthem? (37)
God save the Queen (80)


GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Mar 04 - 04:09 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 04:12 AM
Liz the Squeak 23 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Mar 04 - 04:22 AM
Steve Parkes 23 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM
The Borchester Echo 23 Mar 04 - 05:28 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Truthtroller 23 Mar 04 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 23 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 Mar 04 - 06:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM
harvey andrews 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM
Kevin Sheils 23 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM
Dave of Mawkin 23 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 07:54 AM
songs2play 23 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM
VIN 23 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,padgett 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM
Fergie 23 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM
treewind 23 Mar 04 - 09:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM
breezy 23 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM
VIN 23 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM
Marje 23 Mar 04 - 02:11 PM
robomatic 23 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 02:30 PM
Joe_F 23 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM
lady penelope 23 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM
lady penelope 23 Mar 04 - 05:43 PM
Murray MacLeod 23 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Mar 04 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Truthtroller 24 Mar 04 - 02:08 AM
GUEST,Elfcall 24 Mar 04 - 03:59 AM
Steve Parkes 24 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM
GUEST 24 Mar 04 - 05:15 AM
Tam the Bam (Nutter) 24 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 24 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM
robomatic 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM
Joe_F 24 Mar 04 - 05:47 PM
The Borchester Echo 24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM
paddymac 24 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Leslie from the US of A 04 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM
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Subject: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:50 AM

With St George's Day looming on the horizon and English identity being on the agenda, isn't it about time that we started thinking about a national anthem? My own choice would be Blake's Jerusalem. It gives both a positive view of our past (a tad romantic and not quite accurate-Did Jesus really walk on England's soil?)and a hopeful view of the future. It also has a nice tune. I like it better than Flower of Scotland, and that's a damn fine song.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:09 AM

A Place Called England, by Maggie Holland.
eric


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:12 AM

Land of Dope and Tory, Smotherer of the free...


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM

I'd vote for 'Melting Pot' - that's what we should be aiming for, and give jingoism the boot.

(What we need is a great big melting pot,
Big enough to take the world and all it's got..)

LTS


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:22 AM

'Jerusalem' ? Perhaps if done by Billy Bragg.
Otherwise I second 'A Place called England'.

Oh, and a new patron saint. St Ashley of Hutchings?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:30 AM

Poor William must have been turning without cease in his grave since Parry put Jerusalem to music! He would most emphatically not have agreed with its use as that sort of patriotic song. (And Elgar was never happy about Land of Hope & Glory, to save anyone else bringing it up.)

A good NA should be properly bloodthirsty; "An impure blood shall irrigate our furrows" looses a little in the translation, but indicates the propper spirit. "Confound their politics, frustrate their knavish tricks" is on the right lines, but it ought to be more to do with defending the Motherland against the evil foreign foe and less to do with better trading agreements and wider territories -- that's for the politicians, not the red-blooded citizens proudly shouting out their love for their place of birth (or chosen land, as the case may be).

Remember what that Great Briton Dr Johnson said: "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". What we want is patriotism without the scoundrels it attracts, and a song to match. (Maybe you Catters can write one?) We can't arrogate Jesus to ourselves simply because he came to our shores; He belongs to the whole world, and Nationalism isn't what He came here to promote. Look at those countries (no names, no pack drill!) where both sides claim Him as their own and scoundrels of all persuasions make mockery of His teachings.

When you hear a robin singing so prettily in your garden, just remember that he's really saying "keep off my patch, you birds, or I'll shove your beak so far down your throat you'll have to sit down to catch worms!" That's the kind of National Anthem we want! (We don't have to mean it; we just have to sound as though we do!)

Steve (Black Country/English/British and proud of it!)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:28 AM



You can't have heard the Bard of Barking do it then!
And as an anti-anthem, Billy's 'Take Down the Union Jack' would do just fine.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:52 AM

If you think about it, Melting Pot is not so far removed from Blake's Jerusalem, which incidentally, is not jingoistic. It is uplifting, tolerant, outward-looking, and non-exclusive. okay, okay, I know Parry set the poem to music in World War I to inspire England during their fight with Germany; but I think the song transends that. Also, Billy Bragg is quite interested in English Identity, as all Englishmen should be. When Scotland and Wales go, we will be on our own and then we will be forced to think about our place in the world and how we think of ourselves.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:02 AM

I quite like these lines from There Will Always Be An England.

There will always be an England
And England will be free
And if England means as much to you as England means to me
Then England must mean a very great deal to you indeed.

It describes my own patriotic sentiments. Sadly, the rest of the song gets England mixed up with Britain and is a little jingoistic. Its a shame that the song cant be re-written and updated, but with the above lines left in.

By the way, does anyone know who wrote this song?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:17 AM

What's wrong with God save the Queen you bastards!!
and we don't want a melting pot thankyou. That's why English, I repeat, ENGLISH folk music is disapearing and all we have to listen to is fucking "world music" It's not right!!!!!!!!!

T.T.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:24 AM

What is wrong with God Save the Queen? Well, it is a boring song and it has groveling lyrics. However, like you, I hate world music, but this should be for another thread.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:34 AM

There'll always be an England By Parker & Charles

Nigel


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

English National Anthem

Why start a duplicate tread?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: harvey andrews
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:02 AM

I rather like "The Umbrella Man"

"Any umber-ellas, any umber-ellas to mend today...."
would make you think of England wherever you were.

Or maybe we should be the first country to not have a National Anthem, just a National tune, no dreadful lyrics.
I vote for the Archers theme tune, or the theme from Dr Who.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:08 AM

Good idea Harvey.

How about an amalgam - the Archers theme tune played by the BBC Radiophonic Workshop.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:13 AM

God Save the Queen ? for what ?
eric


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave of Mawkin
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:41 AM

'Rule Brittania!' Thats a good un.As an anti one, any of the sex pistols tunes from 'Nevermind the bollocks...'


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:54 AM

How about Kate Bush's Oh England My Lion Heart..great song


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: songs2play
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:55 AM

Ralph McTell's England would be a cracking choice.

ENGLAND   

Ralph McTell

What is it about you, makes me feel this way?
When I'm leaving you, when I'm coming home
I'm lost for words to say.
And I know your faults and failures,
And the troubles that you've been through.
But it's more about what happens now
And what were coming to.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets,
And the sun when it shines on England
Well it lifts the heart in me.

What is it about you that took men into war?
Rows and rows of crosses, who remembers why what for?
The corners of these foreign fields,
The dust in them concealed.
Out of sight but not out of mind,
Don't you know that England feels?

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
The rain that falls on England
Well it washes care from me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

Don't make this out a battle hymn or a song for victory.
It's just a way to try to say what England means to me.
And our accents and our colours change
From the city to the farmland
From the moorland to the mountain,
From the river to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets
The wind that blows through England
Breathes its life in you and me.

England, oh England
England, oh England
England, oh England

From the rolling road to the winding lane,
From the field to factory,
From summer's haze to winter's glaze,
And all the colours in between.
It's a stillness in the evening.
It's the heartbeat that I'm feeling.
From Cornwall to Northumberland,
From the Pennines to the sea.

And the echo from the green hills
Runs through the city streets.
And the wind that blows through England
Well it breathes its life in you and me.

England, oh England
England, oh England


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: VIN
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:05 AM

Anything's better than the current one. The tune is dire and the words are grovelling medieval crap that pays homage to an institution that should have been confined to the dustbin of history ages ago. Without wishing any harm to the family that have inherited this nonsence, I long for the day when we become true citizens and not 'subjects'.

As for an anthem - how about something from Vaughan Williams? That'd be nice.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM

I vote for t'Holmfirth Anthem


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:09 AM

Thank you Harvey - I laughed 'til I cried. The thought of our olympic champions (oxymoron?)collecting their medals and standing through the Dr Who theme was priceless in an otherwise dour day filling out a Community Fund grant form.

A crowd of 85,000 at the new wembley do do do do do do doing to the Archer's theme !

Her majesty ready to sit down to a state (paid for) banquet and having to listen to the Eastender's theme.

Once again thanks

Elfcall


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Fergie
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:13 AM

In another thread on the same subject I suggested GOD BLESS MOTHER ENGLAND.

I paste the lyrics here for your perusal and comments.

GOD BLESS MOTHER ENGLAND
(Peadar Carney)

I'll sing you a song of peace and love,
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
To the land that reigns all lands above.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
May peace and plenty be her share
Who kept our homes from want and care,
God bless Mother England is our prayer.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.

cho:
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.
So we say, Hip Hooray!
Come and listen while we pray.
Whack fol the diddle all the di do day.

When we were savage, fierce and wild
She came like a mother to her child.
She gently raised us from the slime
Kept our hands from hellish crime,
And sent us to Heaven in her own good time.

Now our fathers oft were very bad boys.
Guns and pikes are dangerous toys.
From Bearna Baol to Bunker Hill
They made poor England weep her fill,
But ould Brittania loves us still!

Now Irishmen, forget the past!
And think of the time that's coming fast.
When we shall all be civilized,
Neat and clean and well-advised.
And won't Mother England be surprised?

Your neighbour
Fergus


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:26 AM

Harvey that's priceless.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

Yes I'd vote for Dr Who, or maybe The Archers.
If not then somthing suitably bloody about how good it is to annexe other peoples countries and treat their people as second class citizans would be suitably historic. After all that is what patriotism is all about when you get to the bones of it!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: treewind
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 09:36 AM

Flanders and Swann:
"The English, the English, The English are best!"

Anahata

PS was this supposed to be an English or British National Anthem? I think some peepul are getting confuzed.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:05 AM

medieval - first time I've heard the 18th century described as "medieval".


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: breezy
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:34 AM

we should hear some of the other countries anthems and count ourselves lucky.

Only jealous of Wales are the English.

England is spoilt for choice, the English dont really sing as a nation anyway.Just listen to the rugby crowds, sweet bloody chariots, its embarrassing to be English . I blame the demise of songs being part of our musical education in schools.

In my days I remember the music teacher belting out songs on the piano and singing away that you had to sing up to be heard, but why was it always me, the outsider, and all the other little buggers sittin there mumblin'



The English do not sing, they could if they tried but its not in their culture.

Cheerio I'm off, like the preverbial clappers.

eastenders, archers haha haha ha listen to that loads o codsballs


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: VIN
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 10:57 AM

The words may not be medieval but the sentiment certainly is i reckon.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Marje
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:11 PM

The original questioner was quite clear - how about having an anthem for England, as opposed to the British one that is shared with the rest of the UK?

But the answers show the usual confusion. When the English can sort out who they are, and remember where England ends and the rest of the UK begins, they'll be ready to start thinking about an anthem of their own.

Marje


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM

I'd like to second treewind, Flanders and Swann kind of hit the nail on the head when it comes to the purpose and use of anthi.

I kind of like 'London Calling' by The Clash. Either keep the words as they are or change 'em a bit, but wouldn't that be a great beat coming out of the Beeb?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:30 PM

National Anthems - all 192 countries

There's some good ones in there. Not too mmay. One of my favourites is Romania - give it a listen, stirring stuff.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:23 PM

Has Chesterton's "Rolling English Road" ever been set to music? To this Yank, it really shines amid English patriotic poetry.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:37 PM

Fergie, that's pure gold. I'd sing it - with relish and enthusiasm - were it our anthum.

TTFN Lady P.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:43 PM

I've always had a soft spot for this one by Sir Cecil Spring-Rice, set to that nice tune wot Holst wrote...............

I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above,
Entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love:
The love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
That lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
The love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
The love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago,
Most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
We may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
Her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
And soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
And her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace.

Though occasionally one does yearn for something with more smiting in.........................Parker!    The smith and wessons, I think.............

TTFN Lady P.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 07:34 PM

Thank you Kevin for providing the link to the previous thread.

Since this thread here has taken on a life of its own I feel justified in copying and pasting the initial post from that previous thread.



Subject: English National Anthem
From: Murray MacLeod - PM
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:18 AM


Since the thread on alternative American anthems created such a response, let's see if we can do something similar for the British Isles. I have long been of the opinion that Andy M Stewart's "Rambling Rover" should be the National Anthem of Scotland, but in the (unlikely) event of total independence for the Celtic countries, England is going to need a new National Anthem as well. I propose Derek Brimstone's stirring song should be adopted

I'm a fine young Englishman,
And I do the best I can
I try to be a credit to the nation
I don't ask for much at all
Just to piss my wages up a wall
And win the Duke of Edinburgh Award for fornication


Now the English are the best
An example to the rest
They all should get down on their knees and thank us
The Irish are a pest
Al except for Georgie Best
And the Scots and the Welsh are a bunch of wankers.

These are Derek's omly two verses. Some years ago I took the liberty, with his permission, of composing a middle verse which goes like this:


You can see me on the street
In Benidorm or in Lloret
As out of the pub at 5 a.m. I stagger
I may act the randy pup
But I can never get it up
After drinking sixteen pints of Carlsberg lager


I feel this song encapsulates the spirit of the modern Englishman in a way which "God Save the Queen" somehow fails to do ...................

Murray


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 08:00 PM

Of course "I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above" would be a fair old national anthem for any country.

But then, why shouldn't different countries have the same national anthem? When it comes to tunes of course they do, more especially the one for God Save the Queen. (For example, when England played Liechtenstein they had to play it twice.   You'd think they'd use a different key, but no - according to my book of National Anthems it's always in G.)

Actually it's not a bad tune, it's just that it's always played so ponderously. I remember hearing it on Steel Drums one Notting Hill Carnival, and it sounded pretty good.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:08 AM

SEND HER VICTORIOUS HAPPY AND GLORIOUS LONG TO REIGN OVER US.
   
      

    GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.......!!!!!!.......Just the job...unless you can identify with pissing your wages up against the wall.


      

    T.T.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Elfcall
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:59 AM

Joe F - The Rolling English Road has been set to music. I am sure that Maddy Prior (of Steeleye Span) does a version on one of her solo albums (Flesh & Blood as a wild guess away from my CD collection. This version never struck me as anthemic.

Elfcall


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:19 AM

I set it to music mself a couple of years ago, but I never learned the words, so nobody else knows the tune.

Steve


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:15 AM

Elfacall's first posting suggest the English National Anthem would be played at the Olympics!!!!


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM

I think as a Scot, that God save the queenn no! because it is about crushing the Scots, however I think that the English National anthem should be 'the soldier's song' Come on the Irish. only kidding the national anthem for England is 'here's to you sweet lovely England' sung by the Spinners.
PS
I'm not kidding about the BRITISH national anthem (God save the Queen)


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:02 PM

How about "England Swings"

by Roger Miller


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:19 PM

Of course they could always keep the tune and pinch the words of the American version, which could just as well apply to England (or most countries, for that matter) - no mention of America whatsoever. ("Pilgrims"? That could just as well be A nod in the direction of Chaucer and St Thomas Beckett):

My country,' tis of thee,
sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing;
land where my fathers died,
land of the pilgrims' pride,
from every mountainside let freedom ring!

My native country, thee,
land of the noble free, thy name I love;
I love thy rocks and rills,
thy woods and templed hills;
my heart with rapture thrills, like that above.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:37 PM

I always liked 'My Country 'Tis' and when I was quite young got a sort of cross-cultural thrill when I was in a London Theatre and all the English stood to the same tune. 'Course I soon realized that we'd simply changed the words to what was their tune in the first place, but I have no trouble with that.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 05:47 PM

Elfcall & Steve: Thanks for letting me know. I would like to hear "The Rolling English Road" sung someday.

But it couldn't really be an anthem, even with an appropriate tune. After all, all those teetotal[l]ing Nonconformists are English too, aren't they? Being found in a ditch, and then growing up & going to heaven? Ah, no.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:11 PM

"A nod in the direction of Chaucer and St Thomas Beckett"

So why not have the song about Thomas Beckett's dad, 'Lord Bateman'?


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: paddymac
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM

I sorta like Fergie's idea. Kearney also wrote the "Soldiers'Song," and he was an uncle of Brendan Behan. One of those four knighted blighters from Liverpool penned a great "nominee" song suited to the purpose - "Give Ireland Back To The Irish."


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Subject: A national anthem for England and much much less!
From: GUEST,Leslie from the US of A
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

Comments on several posts above.

Bush would have the UK anthem - or for that matter, the World Anthem - be The Star Spangled Banner. Help, help, the American people are in big trouble.

As for me, my Liverpudlian mum always told me not to cadge sweets and things. Can someone tell me the derivation? I don't think it has anything to do with the townsfolk of Cadgewith? Still, Cadgewith Anthem has always been a favorite of mine.

I found the album of the gentleman whose symphony orchestra included garden hoses and hoovers. You've piqued my interest, I think I'll order it. He's a predecessor to PDQ Bach.

In Philadelphia Pennsylvania they have a New Years Day parade called the Mummer's Day Parade. Picture if you will drunken Morris dancers on steroids wearing silk pajamas and sequined, feathered matresses on their shoulders. It would be amusing if we had decent beer over here.

Have a good day.


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Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:31 PM

whilst I agree the theme from Bonanza would be an improvement. I'm trying to think of when they use a national anthem. Olympics, the WI, trooping of the colour....

I don't think we need concern ourselves what people sing in these circumstances. i never go any of these places.

If we had She'll be coming round the mountain - everybody would join in the I-yi yippies, and perhaps this would give us an edge. Being the only song that everybody knows.


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Mudcat time: 29 May 9:44 AM EDT

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