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folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons
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Subject: BS: greek orthodox icons From: dianavan Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:46 PM Not far from my mom's place between Phoenix and Tucson is a Greek Orthodox Monastery called St. Anthony's. I recently visited this place which was built 10 years ago and covers about 7 acres. I was given a long, dark skirt, a white blouse and a scarf before I was permitted to enter. It was amazing! Every square inch was a work of art; a gift to God. They are totally into icons. Encouraged me to take pictures. I know nothing about this religion. I conversed with two of the monks and they offered me the most delicious peanut butter cookies I have ever eaten in my whole life. I think I must have stood a little too close at one point because one of the monks literally jumped backwards. Maybe it was peanut butter breath but I think it was because I flipped my braids over my shoulder when I noticed they were peaking out from under the scarf. A wonderfully strange experience. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:25 PM My husband knows quite a bit. Also there are books and websites about icongraphy. This Christian denomination has a fascinating history. Greek & Eastern (russian) Orthodox are parts of the Byzantine Church that was, at one time, a world center of Christianity. Icons are about telling stories and helping worshippers focus their thoughts and reflections as they pray-- one does not pray TO them as much as one prays while thinking on them. Think of them, in terms of story, as filling the same functions stained glass windows fill-- originally, these provided pictorial teaching aids for a largely nonliterate populace. We have a recently-commissioned icon in our chapel of the Russian sort. We did a brochure explaining the imagery, that I could send you along with a picture of it. Also, I have a boatload of beautiful .JPEGs from various websites, and there is a Russian Orthodox (mostly) calendar put out each year with frameable prints of icons, called ICONE I believe-- 12 icons of a large (18 x 24 inches???) size. PM me if you want me to track it down. Or PM me an email address and I can send the brochure text and a digital photo, and my .jpg's. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:34 PM Oh wow! CLICK ME Multimedia! Iconograms! LOTS of icons! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Amos Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:38 PM I met an old monk in the hills of one of the Greek Islands, although I cannot place which one, who had spent his entire life carving a pair of giant doors meant for his local church. They were perhaps 10 feet high and perhaps six feet wide and covered -- every square inch -- with intricate carved inmages of lives of saints and miracles and what-not. He was still doing them, and he was in his eighties, and he had done nothing else with his entire life. But they were magnificent. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: dianavan Date: 28 Mar 04 - 10:53 PM Amos - Thats what impressed me. The fact that you could give your entire life to art and to God at the same time. When you focus on beauty, it seems that all worldly concerns just disappear. Maybe I missed my calling. Are there places where a woman can be fed, clothed and sheltered and do nothing but create art? Seems to me these monks have it made in the shade. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:12 PM Well, Sister Thea was a RC nun whose life was given to music... I bet there are painting nuns, too. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: dianavan Date: 28 Mar 04 - 11:47 PM WYSIWYG - Thanks for the information. I have discovered that Ephraim is quite controversial (cultish) and that there are some problems with his charisma. Aside from the paintings, I was most impressed with the stonework and the architecture. Haven't been able to find out who actually built the many gazebos, fountains, residences, church or the numerous chapels. I've never seen anything to equal the precision and the beauty and I've been to holy places all over the world. Its awesome! The monks taking care of the gardens were pretty darn cute, as well. There was alot of hand kissing going on whenever one of the elders passed. One of the gardeners dared to complain in front of me. He told the monk accompanying me that he, "Couldn't do it." I had no idea what he was talking about but he was quickly silenced and bowed his head. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: GUEST,freda Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:07 AM my oldest daughter has married into a greek orthodox family. they have accepted me and my family as part of theirs. i have had the privilege of attending their church, listening to the most beautiful singing and chanting, sourrounded by stunning images in stained glass and in beautifully painted icons. their ancient religious ceremonies are very moving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:17 AM Perhaps, as a practicing Orthodox Christian, I can help explain. First of all, the Orthodox Church is not a demonination. It is the Church founded by the Apostles at Pentecost. It's faith and doctrines have remained essentially unchanged from that day to the present. The Roman Pope was originally a Metropolitan Archbishop of the Orthodox Church with responsibility for one of the five sees of the ancient Church (Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem). There were originally four sees until the founding of Constantinople ca. 324. Over a period culminating in 1054, the see of Rome became the Roman Catholic Church. The remaining original sees plus new ones such as Kiev, Moscow, Georgia, etc. remained in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Every western denomination branched off directly or indirectly from the Roman Catholic Church. Orthodox Icons are not said to be “painted,” rather they are written. The writing of an Icon must be performed by a trained Iconographer, often a priest or monk but typically someone who's spent time studying Iconography in a monestary or seminary. The iconographer must prepare through prayer and fasting for the writing of the Icon; the writing is itself a sacrement. The iconographer copies traditional forms in writing the Icon and elements of the image are represented by traditional, practiced strokes of the brush. The colors used are not chosen by the Iconographer, rather they are prescribed by tradition. It is improper for an Icon to bear any mark identifying its maker. There is to be no ego involved and an Icon is said to be “not made by hands.” An Icon tells a story. It contains all the elements of the story even when those elements were separated by great distances or time. The Icon is not meant to show how Saints or places actually looked. The more realistic and three-dimensional an Icon looks, the worse its quality is deemed to be. Icons are not worshiped in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they are valued and venerated as windows into heaven. It is wrong for an Icon to be kept in a museum or traded as art. Icons are to be kept in churches or in the homes of the Orthodox faithful. In an Orthodox church the nave of the church is separated from the sanctuary (where the altar sits) by an Icon screen called, in greek, the Iconostasis. This is analogous to the veil of the ancient temple that separated worshipers from the Holy of Holies. The Icon screen, by tradition, will have certain Icons in particular places and be literally covered with Icons. The walls, ceiling, and dome of an Eastern Orthodox church are also covered with Icons. The Icon Susan describes in her church is no doubt beautiful—I'd love to see a picture of it—but unless it was writen by an Orthodox iconographer in strict Orthodox tradition and received the proper blessing by a canonical Orthodox priest or bishop, it remains simply a painting and is not an Orthodox Icon. I've tried to keep the preceding discussion on a purely historical and factual level. I haven't meant to slight or demean anyone's faith or chosen religious practice. I hope it served to inform. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Padre Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:22 AM Mark, Thanks for a clear, cogent explanation of icons. Folks who want to know more about icons might enjoy a book entitled: "Doors of Perception" - icons and their spiritual significance. Written by John Baggley, and published by St. Vladimir's Seminary Press in Crestwood NY Padre |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Amos Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:24 AM Mark, Many many thanks for clarifying this little piece of Christian history, which has always bedeviled me, so to speak. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: dianavan Date: 29 Mar 04 - 12:51 AM Mark - Thanks so much for explaining. I wish everyone knew this and would stop giving Rome so much credit. Can you tell me more about the founding father of Saint Anthony's? It was all so mysterious to me and perhaps too inquisitive but I was treated very kindly. I will go again next year. I have truly found a pilgrim's place. d |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:03 AM Here is a page of explanation from the Web site of page of St. Anthony's Monastery. There is a little background on Elder Ephraim there as well. I didn't mean to be taking credit away from Rome. Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Church were one through the first thousand years of Christianity. We still pray for the return of Rome to the Church. Even in the ancient Church the term Pope [Middle English, from Old English pāpa, from Late Latin, from Latin, father (title of bishops), from Greek pappās.] was applied to the Patriarch of Rome. Although the Episcopate of the ancient Church (as today) was collegial—each bishop encompased the totality of the Church—the Patriarch of Rome was called “first among equals.” He had no authority over doctrine but could be called upon to help adjudicate ecclesiastical controversies. Perhaps the best and clearest introduction to Eastern Orthodoxy is a book by Timothy Ware (now Bishop Kallistos Ware) called The Orthodox Church. Ware was an Anglican layman when he researched and wrote this insightful, easy reading introduction. He talks about Church history, worship, doctrine, Icons and a host of other topics of interest to anyone wanting to learn more about Eastern Orthodoxy. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:24 AM Of all the wonders I saw in Greece last summer, I think the icons were most fascinating. I wandered into a church at Lindos on Rhodes, and saw the usual line of icons of saints on the wall. The last in line was a donkey with a halo around his head. Turns out it was a traditional depiction of St. Christopher (Christ-bearer) - legend says he carried Jesus across a flooded river, like a donkey would do. In a church in Thessaloniki in the north, the icons were speckled with chips, spaced about one inch apart. The Turks held northern Greece until 1923 and they considered icons to be profane, so they defaced them. The Hagia Sofia in Istanbul was an Orthodox church, largest in the world. It must have had wonderful icons - I wonder what happened to them after the church was taken over by Muslims. As a Roman Catholic, I'm not sure I'd like to return to orthodoxy. I think I'd rather have all Christians learn to tolerate and value each other and celebrate their diversity. Homogenized religion isn't the answer. -Joe Offer- I hope nobody minds that I moved this to the "folklore" category. |
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Subject: RE: BS: greek orthodox icons From: Ellenpoly Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:38 AM I do love reading these kinds of threads! I learn so much. I was baptized into Greek Orthodoxy in order to marry my husband. That process in itself was intriguing, as I was placed into a huge marble font which has orignally been part of a pedestal supporting a statue of Marcus Aeurellius. My soon to be mother and sister-in-laws were my godmothers, and had to provide me with new clothes after the ceremony. They had purchased some underwear that has English phrases written around it, and I guess never bothered to ask anyone what they said. So, after the ceremony, they presented me with undies reading; "love at first bite" and "love begins here"! But I really just wanted to thank Mark for his information. Lots there I never knew. My father-in-law used to be a painter in several of the churches on the island, and he eventually stopped because of a bad case of lead poisoning. I remember Greek Orthodoxy the most for its incense, music intoned by the priests, and candle-lit processions down the hills from each of the churches on Easter Saturday. It was a moving sight to see, and even though I was Orthodox in name only, I always made it point to join the processions. The icons carried by the priests were their prized possessions and covered with flowers for the occasion. PS-There is a Greek Monastary on Mount Athos which forbids all things feminine...not just people but animals as well..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: George Papavgeris Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:07 AM Aaahhh - come to daddy! A Greek Orthodox Christian in your midst, and a native of Thessaloniki to boot ("city of a thousand churches" - well, only 800 or so nowadays). Mark Clark gave the fullest explanation on icons, so glad he pointed out the "writing" of icons, he knows his stuff. Perhaps I can add something on monasteries and monastic life. The word originates from the Greek monos=alone. A monachos(=monk) means literally "he who is alone". Early on in the Christian era some believers decided to live alone, dedicating their life to their religion, but organised monasteries don't appear until the 4th century AD. Increasingly over the last century or so some monasteries started taking a more active role in secular life, and the newest ones are indeed built close to towns or villages. The older ones however are remote, some in amazing, wonderful locations, and in times of strife acted as refuges for people avoiding persecution from invading armies, enemies of all sorts, and occasionally from the law too(provided they repented and took up the habit). It is usually the older, more experienced, monks who will venture into contact with the secular world, as they are better protected against the various temptations. The younger monks are still vulnerable - that would explain the behaviour of the monks you met, Dianavan. Mixed monasteries are very rare; but you get a few cases of mostly "twinned" monasteries and nunneries. It is very important in monastic life to be "useful", not just in covering the various duties required in keeping a monastery going, but even more in recording history and producing art - not always with a religious connection, as much of the early Greek history and writings of Aristotle were only preserved through the efforts of monks who copied them. Positions such as "Hagiographer" (literally Saint-writer, icon-painter) are coveted as they command respect for the undoubted dedication and talent such a job demands. But a monk or nun will take pride in the lowliest of tasks and perform them "to the glory of God". A practice that continues to this day (and is becoming stronger in fact) is the "beguinage", especially in nunneries: women who go to live in a nunnery, participating in all its activities (even hagiography), yet remain lay persons; eventually some of them may take up the habit. My sister's eldest daughter, now 41, is one such, at the "Eikosifinissa" monastery in the North of Greece. A troubled girl (IQ in the high 140s, raped at 13, rebellious nature) who found induction in secular society impossible, eventually found solace in beguinage in her mid-thirties. I make a point of visiting every time I go to Greece. And monasteries offer a lot to secular society. One of them in particular helped my sister through the 2-year struggle against cancer and eventual death of an 11-year old daughter, who is now buried in the monastery grounds. Byzantine music - ahh, now there's a subject! But I'll leave this for another posting. George ("Yorgos", really) Papavgeris |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: George Papavgeris Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:16 AM Ellenpoly, I loved the story of the undies - worthy of the "Big Fat Greek Wedding"! My own wife (Church of England) did not have to be baptised, as she had already been christened within her own dogma. But the Greek Orthodox Church would not acknowledge a CofE wedding, so we had to get married twice in Church, once in England and then in Greece. To avoid confrontation, we do not celebrate either wedding anniversary, but instead the date we met; we feel that is more appropriate in many ways. But it gives me great pleasure to watch people's faces when I say the my first wife attended my second wedding; or that I kiss my first wife in the morning and my second one in the evening... And they're both lovely - the biggest blessing in my life. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Ellenpoly Date: 29 Mar 04 - 06:31 AM El Greko,thanks for your posting. Again, I'm learning more than I knew when I was actually living in Greece (Syros, in the Cyclades). The reason I had to be baptised is that I was born a Jew, and therefore had never been baptised into any form of Christianity. Neither my husband or I was religious, and it was quite a comedy trying to get married in Greece (this was in the early 70s and there's a chance things changed by now, but somehow I doubt it). When we first found out there was no such thing as a Civil Ceremony in Greece and if we had one anywhere else it would not be recognized legally, we first went to a Rabbi in London to see if he would be willing to perform a ceremony for us. Nope, not a chance he said. Then we went to a Protestant Minister who said we'd have to join his congregation and become members for at least 6 months. Finally we went back to Yhanni's home town and asked his local Greek Orthodox priests. The younger priest insisted that I be educated into Orthodoxy before being considered appropriate to marry within their church. The older (and wiser in my opinion) whispered to the younger ("Let's just get them married and LEGAL") which endeared him to me, and we were subsequently married soon after my baptism. Being married in the Greek Orthodox tradition was great fun, aside from not understanding a word of what was being said and knowing I could easily have been agreeing to white slavery (I wasn't far off) and being pelted with those really HARD little candied almonds. The party afterwards would have put "Big Fat Greek Wedding" to shame. My most vivid memory was when Yhanni picked up our small table at the local Bouzouki Bar in his TEETH and tossed it across the room. Portents of things to come...xx..e |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Deckman Date: 29 Mar 04 - 06:44 AM My My! The things one learned on MUDCAT! CHEERS, Bob |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: freda underhill Date: 29 Mar 04 - 07:12 AM My daughter Shunanda was baptised in her greek church in order to marry. having been brought up by a vegetarian buddhist, this was a cultural leap. she now has him leaping and has trained her greek husband (from the island of castellorizan) to cook and wash up.. the family has a beautiful house in castellorizan that i can use any time. best wishes freda freda |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: breezy Date: 29 Mar 04 - 07:24 AM Is this the same El greko who wrote a song entitled 'Bogeyman under my bed'? Most enlightening and so you have 2 wives of the same person. which one sang with you so delightfully last night and will the other one replicate the event? does this mean there are two of you too,in her eyes which may mean that there are four of you in total and now I'm confused altogether because were there 3 of us up there last night and I only counted two? |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:41 AM I'll have to ask Hardi about the icon's provenance, but I am pretty sure it was all done correctly-- the icon was commissioned and donated by a faithful Eastern Orthodox member of our parish. We have a number of folks of that heritage in our parish-- there is no church for them to attend and have been told that when this is the case, to attend an Episcopal church (including receiving communion), since when we left Rome we had the good sense to go back to the early beginnings of the church for our foundation (including Hebrew/Jewish roots of liturgy and theology) and since we have quite a vein of mysticism within the broad array of expressions found in the Episcopal Church. Because of Hardi's personal interest in and love for the Eastern way, he has gone out of his way to include what he can of Eastern ways within our own parish's diverse array of approaches to worship and spirituality. I am sure recent events have strained this, but our parish and community proudly say we are 20 years behind the times on most things so we have not yet had any departures among our Orthodox brothers and sisters. Back in Chicagoland he lived in a melting-pot neighborhood, and as an Anglo-Catholic he preferred to make his friends among Orthodox and "Old Catholic" clergy (there's another interesting wrinkle, the OCs). They would often meet together to celebrate one another's liturgies (privately). ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 29 Mar 04 - 10:53 AM I `ad one of those Greek Orthodox Priests in my cab one day. Lovely `at, shame about the beard!! What am I like? |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Mar 04 - 11:08 AM I'm struggling to continue this very interesting discussion in a way that won't be taken as offensive by anyone. Please understand that I strongly defend the right and freedom of each individual to worship (or not) as he chooses and I have no wish to demean anyone's belief system. Organized religion usually has certain perscriptions for what is considered correct or “canonical” within the practice of a particular body or group. Christianity (Orthodoxy) inherited this concept from Judaism—Christianity began as a sect of Judaism, the first Christians had first to be Jews in order to be Christians—and, over time, developed canon law and modes of worship that seemed appropriate. A lot of the canons deal with the perceived validity of religious practice. From an Orthodox perspective, a priest does not hold any valid orders, for example, unless properly ordained by a canonical Orthodox Bishop in good standing with his Patriarch and the other canonical Orthodox Churches. Unless a priest is a canonical Orthodox priest, there is no communion, no Eucharist, from the perspective of an Orthodox Christian. There has never been any exception to this in the history of Orthodoxy. Likewise, no Orthodox Iconographer would write an Icon for a church that wasn't Orthodox. Neither would an Orthodox bishop or priest consecrate an Icon outside of an Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy is currently receiving a large number of converts as people search for true spirituality in a Christian tradition. Especially in the Anglican (Episcopal) church, often whole parishes—priest and flock together—choose to become Orthodox. Some of these also adopt the traditional Eastern liturgical practice and some choose a Western Rite liturgy. The Antiochian Orthodox Church has received a number of these parishes. Were I in a situation where there was no Orthodox Church with an hour or two of my home, I might opt to attend an Anglican parish—possibly Hardi's and Susan's—but I wouldn't excommunicate myself by participating in their communion nor would I view religious art as Icons. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Mar 04 - 11:22 AM Hm, no Mark, I don't feel offended, and I appreciate your thoughtfully-stated concern, but I'm also sure people have been encouraged to worship with us, so how about if I ask Hardi more about this and see if he can help me clarify what I can't understand accurately enough to convey for myself? In friendship, ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Mar 04 - 01:27 PM The Ukrainian Orthodox Church is strong here in Alberta, where many Ukrainians settled between the 1890s and 1930. In Alaska, the Russian Orthodox Church persists. Mark's very informative posts make me want to know more about the iconographic practices of those groups as well. My only knowledge is of Ukrainian weddings and wedding celebrations and traditional recipes. The Ukrainians also speak of 'writing' their decorated eggs (pysanki), but I believe that the definition is much broader. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: The Walrus Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM As part of my college course, I've tried copying icons as painted and gilded items - it's a lot harder than it looks. Are the originals still written using egg tempera and natural pigments or are modern paints and colours allowed for new pieces? Please accept this is not a frivolous question, as the availability and ease of preparation of pigments did effect their use within an icon, for example, the use of 'ultramarine' blue for robes of the Madonna reflects the rarity and difficulty of producing first grade colour from lapis-lazuli, this significance is surely lost if one can pick up a tube of synthetic colour Walrus |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Mark Clark Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:34 PM Not a frivolous question at all, TW. Traditionally, as you point out, Icons were written using egg tempera and were written directly on solid wooden boards. Icons adorning church walls were sometimes frescoes and sometimes, as at Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, they were mosaics. Materials used today depend on the jurisdiction and the location. Egg tempera is still used by very strict traditionalists in Eastern Europe but a great many Iconographers now use acrylic paints and write Icons on manufactured boards. These materials are more consistant, more dimensionally stable and are thought to extend the life of the Icon. Large Icons intended for application directly to church walls are now usually written on artists' canvas in a studio then taken to the site and applied to the wall. In the Orthodox Church the term for the Mother of Jesus is Theotokos, a Greek word meaning Mother of God. The colors are traditionally those shown in this example. In Byzantine Iconography, the Theotokos is never depicted wearing ultramarine blue although she is sometimes shown wearing a blue gown under her maroon robe. The three stars you see in the example symbolize her virginity before, during and after carrying the Creator in her womb. The same site I linked above also presents a wonderful step-by-step explanation of the techniques used in writing an Icon, just click through the steps. If you snoop around the site, there are also examples of many traditional Icons. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: dianavan Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:59 PM I have learned alot from this discussion and would like to thank Mark Clark for his patience and willingness to share some of what was so mysterious to me. I would encourage all of you to visit St. Anthony's near Florence, Arizona. The beauty that rises from this desolate desert is awe inspiring and will leave you with a sense of wonder. Well worth the pilgramage. d |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Stephen R. Date: 29 Mar 04 - 10:51 PM My thanks to Mark and the other Orthodox contributors to this thread. Your servant has the great blessing of being also one of the usually anonymous Orthodox participants in this forum. I'm not surprised that there are others; traditional singing is an essential part of our religious culture, and it is easy for us to appreciate beauty in diverse cultural traditions. Traditionally Orthodox peoples have also preserved such traditions as the singing of epics (shared, to be sure, with those of other religions; in Former Yugoslavia this tradition seems to be strongest among the Muslims). The relation between our church singing and folk singing is sometimes insufficiently appreciated; compare the Holy Saturday troparion "Noble Joseph" in the "Bulgarian Chant" melody sung in Russian churches with the Bulgarian folksong "Moma Tudora, Tudora," popularized in the Bulgarian wave of the 1980s. The Carpatho-Rusyn chant often employs a final cadence with a downward leap of a fourth, obviously absorbed from the folksinging of the province where it is very prominent. And Vinko Zganec pointed out long ago that the Serbian chant employs scales used in Serbian folk singing. Stephen |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Peter Kasin Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:22 AM Mark - Would you also recommend the writings of Fr. Seraphim Rose? I've been reading him lately, and find his life, published lectures, and writings fascinating, but not being Orthodox myself, I defer to you whether he would be recommended reading for anyone interested in finding out about the Orthodox church. Chanteyranger |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:22 AM Can anybdy recommend books about icons and their symbolism? I see a few books mentioned above, but are there a few books that would give me a good introductory understanding? By the way, I was amazed to see an icon painted by the original El Greko, before he moved to Spain. I think it was in the monastery on the island of Patmos. I had no idea El Greko had painted icons. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: breezy Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:13 AM and toenails |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Micca Date: 30 Mar 04 - 05:25 AM Well Personally, I think the Mudcats El Greko is a splendid example of an Greek (perhaps Un-Orthodox)Icon!!! On a Musical note, John Taverners liturgical Music ("The Protecting Veil," "Ikos of Light") are wonderful contemplative and inspiring, even to a Pagan!!!!!. Taverner is a Western Christian (Anglican I think) that converted to Greek Orthodox and writes Music in the Tradition of Greek Orthodox Church Music, much of it Choral Wonderful stuff!!! |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: The Walrus Date: 30 Mar 04 - 10:03 AM Mark, Thank you for the correction, I was obviously working from the Western tradition, where the Madonna was given blue robes because of the expense and difficulty of production of 'first grade' ultramarine. Is the Theotokos always traditionally depicted in maroon in Orthodox iconography? If so, do you have any idea why? Thanks for the iconography link too, It was fascinating to compare some differences between Eastern and Western methods in tempera painting (undercoat colours, oil vs water gilding etc.) Walrus |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Mark Clark Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:02 PM I found a nice page called A Brief Guide to Byzantine Icons that discusses the symbolism in Icons and the reasons behind the traditional forms. It also discusses uncanonical Icons and why they are an improper representation of the sacred image. You may also be interested in A Guide to Byzantine Icons on the Internet, a site with a great many examples and links. Another interesting way to find Icon images is to go to the Google image search page and enter theotokos. You'll find over 2,500 images, many very beautiful.I'm trying to find material about the symbolism of colors but haven't come up with it yet. The earliest known Icon (of the Theotokos) is said to have been written by St. Luke the Evangelist and it's likely that the form of the Icon as well as the colors have simply been copied without change for nearly two thousand years. As for Fr. Saraphim Rose, I'm not really competent to answer Chanteyranger's question. Our parish priest, Fr. Paul Baba, is a disciple of Fr. Saraphim and gives me something to read from time to time. Other Orthodox priests I respect are somewhat cautionary when talking about him. There seems to be almost a cult surrounding him and his thought and I'm not sure every Orthodox theologian holds him in the same high esteem. It's difficult to get a good reading because clergy who don't wholy endorse Fr. Seraphim are reluctant to dismiss his work publicly. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Peter Kasin Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:04 AM Thanks, Mark. I got a similar impression of his standing within the church from someone I know who is orthodox and had introduced me to his writings and a biography of him. Dianavan - As for icons, she recommends a book called Russian And Greek Icons From The Charles Pankow Collection, 13th through 19th Centuries, by Dick temple. Publisher: William kaufmann, Inc. ISBN # 0-06576-034-9. it's out of print, but try www.bookfinder.com. It's a picture book, so not much in the way of history. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Mark Clark Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM I sent a note to Mark Keriotis, the developer of A Brief Guide to Byzantine Icons, and he was kind enough to respond with some information on the symbolism of color in Icons. Here is what he sent me from a book called The Icon: Image of the Invisible By Egon Sendler. I gave Mark a link to this thread. Perhaps he will drop in and add his considerable knowledge to the discussion.
- Mark |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: GUEST,Mark Keriotis Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:46 PM Hi Folks, I dont know if i can add much but I'd love to help if I can. (I think the other Mark might know more than me!) Actually I might add to the confusion on issuse like the color of the Virgin Mary's garments. There seems to be many theories. One is that the Blue undergarment represents Earth and Red the Divine energy that descended upon her at the conception of Christ. Another theory says that the she, being a creature of Earth (this time represented by Red) became like Heaven when God came to dwell within her (blue under the red). so,unfortunatily I can't give a clear answer about that. I'd like to know more about what Stephen knows about Carpatho-Rusyn Chant, thats another big interest of mine. Mark K |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: dianavan Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:34 AM Purple is the colour of spiritual royalty. Blue is innocence and purity. Red is life. ...and I'm not orthodox but I am so happy with what I have learned on this thread. Why do some people, after making the sign of the cross, return their hand to their breast and make a bow and some do not? |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:19 AM Thanks to all contributers for this fascinating thread. RtS (grecophile) |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Mark Clark Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM Why do some people, after making the sign of the Cross, return their hand to their breast and make a bow and some do not?An interesting observation, dianavan. Tradition is central to Orthodoxy; both with a capital “T” and a small “t.” Tradition, with a capital “T” includes thing like scripture (the Bible), canon law, sacraments, liturgical practice, etc. Tradition with a small “t” includes practices that may be national or regional in character. Traditional vestments of clergy can vary from group to group. How an Orthodox worshiper Crosses herself or himself can vary as well. The right hand is always held in the same way (not in the Roman fashion) and the sign of the Cross is made forehead to abdomen, right shoulder to left shoulder. The final placement of the palm on the breast and the small bow you describe are optional and separate gestures depending on local tradition or the tradition in which the worshiper was raised. As an interesting piece of history, I'm told that in the ancient Church the sign of the Cross was always made the way Roman Catholics do it today. The Orthodox Church changed the gesture to differentiate Orthodox belivers from the western schismatics. As far as I know, this is the only change in practice the Orthodox Church has made. Orthodox worshipers are, in the main, perhaps the most pious Christians you will ever encounter. In many churches worshipers will bow very low when Crossing themselves. In the US, it's common to see pews in Orthodox churches but pews are not traditional in an Orthodox church. Traditionally, worshipers were free to move about, venerating Icons, lighting candles, offering private prayers and so forth, throughout the Liturgy which might last anywhere from 90 minutes to two or three hours depending on the jurisdiction and the season. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: George Papavgeris Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:30 AM In Greece at least, the placing of the hand on the breast after crossing oneself three times symbolises the word "amen". As we cross ourselves, silently, we say (excuse phonetics): Di efchon - ton aghion - pateron - imon (through the blessings/intervention of our holy fathers) [ first sign of the cross] Kyrie - Iesou - Christe - O Theos (Lord Jesus Christ, our...) [ second sign of the cross] Imon - eleison - ke soson - imas (...God - have mercy - and save - us) [third sign of the cross] Amin (Amen) [hand on breast, small bow of thanks and respect] In the next posting I will relate a funny, but true, story linked to crossing oneself. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: George Papavgeris Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:39 AM Picture this: It's a busy lunchtime rush hour in Athens. I have just arrived with my fiancee (English, first time abroad) at the main railway station, and we jump into a taxi to get to our final destination. On the roads it's mayhem, horns blaring, drivers "cutting" each other, and our driver seems as tense as any, gas pedal floored and braking at the last possible moment several times a minute. She turns to me after a while and asks quietly "Why is the driver crossing himself every few seconds?". I observe him to make sure, and then confidently explain to her that in Greece many people cross themselves when they pass a church - even when driving. "Thank God for that" she says, "I thought it was every time he had narrowly escaped a crash!". She was right in her mistake - it could well have been that! Thankfully she survived the shock, and 31 years later we are still together. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: GUEST,Mark Keriotis Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM I think one ought to bless oneself just to cross the street in Athens! The bow at the end of the sign of the cross seems to be mostly a Russian custom, although many other Orthodox lower their heads while forming the cross. The Russian "Old Believers" say that the ancient way of of making the sign of the cross is with the first two fingers of the right hand together(symbolizing the divine and human natures of Christ) compared to the current Orthodox practice of three fingers (symbolizing the Trinity) and two fingers tucked into the palm (the 2 natures) Mark K |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Uncle Jaque Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM A Paternal Grandfather, Dr. James Franklin Clarke, went to Bulgaria in 1860 as a Congregationalist Missionary and spent his life ministering there. He and his Wife founded a Mission School to help educate the poor Bulgarian Children, which we are told is now the "American University" in Sophia, having survived nearly 70 years of persecution by Nazis and the Communist regime that followed them. His Son, James Cummings, continued in the Mission field until repression by Turks and Nazis forced all of the Missionaries to flee in the late 1930s. When he returned to the States, he brought a bunch of souveniers and relics that they had collected over the years, including a wooded "Triptyc", which is sort of an Icon with a pair of wooden shutters covering the central motif. When the shutters are opened, they reveal a picture of the Madonna and Christ Child, and the inside of the "doors" have several panels - sort of like a Sunday comic strip in a newspaper - depicting what I assume are various Saints doing various things. A couple of them, who we assume to be the Patron Saint of Bulgaria (St. George?) are on a horse; one is skewering a black snake on a spear (symbolic of the Devil, I assume) and on the other door he is spearing a strange headless little guy in a yellow jacket who is holding what looks like a badly damaged TV antennae in his hand. Now I know it's not the Cable guy, cause this thing has got to be about a hundred years old or so - but since I don't have a clue what that's all about, I wonder if anyone out there might? GGF used to ride all around the Mountains of Bulgaria looking after the Nomadic Shepherds and such up there, so it's anybody's guess what part of Bulgaria it came from. If we could post images here I would be glad to share a photo of it. It really is a pretty old thing. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: GUEST,Mark Keriotis Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM I'm guessing that the second depiction is actually St. Demetrius who is often paired together with Saint George in compositions like triptycs, he and Saint George were both early martyrs who served in the Roman army. The man on the other end of the spear is a gladiator named Lyaios who played a part in St Demetrius' story Why he is headless and holding an antenna, I dont know, I've never seen one like that before (assuming it is what i think it is) I'd love to see a picture of it if you'd like to email me zoemark@earthlink.net Mark K |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: Stephen R. Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:07 AM Mark K.is interested in Carpatho-Rusyn chant; there is a forum on the topic hosted by Yahoo; the name is Prostopinije. Another Yahoo forum that may be of interest: Podoben. Stephen |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: LadyJean Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:32 AM One of the gentlemen in my Presbyterian Church is Bulgarian. One Sunday he favored us with some Bulgarian chants. The accoustics in my church are abysmal, and he still sounded like something you'd hear in heaven. That says a lot for the Bulgarian chant. On Fridays I go past the Federal Building, and I often see the new citizens coming out. One day, it was a small group of Eastern Orthodox nuns, in their long black robes, and hats. Each one had a small flag. That and the sisters' smiles were all the color they had. |
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Subject: RE: folklore: Greek Orthodox Icons From: dianavan Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:33 AM Uncle Jaque - Can you post the photo with a blue clicky the way Donuel does it? I'm curious. |
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