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BS: Abdication of parental responsibility

John MacKenzie 29 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 02:18 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 02:25 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 02:26 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM
alanabit 29 Mar 04 - 03:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM
M.Ted 29 Mar 04 - 03:34 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM
Sooz 29 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM
Bagpuss 29 Mar 04 - 03:59 PM
GUEST,earthling 29 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM
John MacKenzie 29 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,earthling 29 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM
Chief Chaos 29 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 29 Mar 04 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,earthling 29 Mar 04 - 04:23 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 04:40 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,dinnerlady 29 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM
GUEST 29 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM
M.Ted 29 Mar 04 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,pdc 29 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM
dianavan 29 Mar 04 - 08:01 PM
Liz the Squeak 29 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM
M.Ted 29 Mar 04 - 08:42 PM
dianavan 29 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM
Metchosin 29 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM
Peace 29 Mar 04 - 09:36 PM
Stilly River Sage 29 Mar 04 - 09:59 PM
Amos 29 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM
GUEST,pdc 29 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM
John MacKenzie 30 Mar 04 - 03:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM
John MacKenzie 30 Mar 04 - 08:04 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Mar 04 - 08:44 AM
Steve in Idaho 30 Mar 04 - 09:12 AM
Liz the Squeak 30 Mar 04 - 09:21 AM
*daylia* 30 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM
M.Ted 30 Mar 04 - 11:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 12:19 PM
Amos 30 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM
CarolC 30 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM
M.Ted 30 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 01:27 PM
Kim C 30 Mar 04 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,Shlio 30 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM
CarolC 30 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM
Amos 30 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM
M.Ted 30 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Mar 04 - 02:34 PM
CarolC 30 Mar 04 - 02:37 PM
Rapparee 30 Mar 04 - 08:45 PM
John MacKenzie 31 Mar 04 - 03:17 AM
freda underhill 31 Mar 04 - 05:14 AM
Rapparee 31 Mar 04 - 09:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM
Bagpuss 31 Mar 04 - 09:58 AM
M.Ted 31 Mar 04 - 11:05 AM
Richard Bridge 31 Mar 04 - 11:30 AM
Mrs.Duck 31 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM
Bagpuss 31 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 04 - 02:28 PM
Terry K 31 Mar 04 - 02:32 PM
John MacKenzie 31 Mar 04 - 02:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Mar 04 - 02:50 PM
Bagpuss 31 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM
Terry K 01 Apr 04 - 12:49 AM
dianavan 01 Apr 04 - 02:09 AM
John MacKenzie 01 Apr 04 - 03:54 AM
Liz the Squeak 01 Apr 04 - 06:07 AM
Chief Chaos 01 Apr 04 - 09:58 AM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 04 - 10:34 AM
M.Ted 01 Apr 04 - 01:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM
Peace 01 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM
Liz the Squeak 01 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 04 - 01:07 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 04 - 03:00 AM
Terry K 02 Apr 04 - 04:45 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 04 - 06:20 AM
Amos 02 Apr 04 - 09:54 AM
freda underhill 02 Apr 04 - 10:20 AM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Apr 04 - 11:38 AM
John MacKenzie 02 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM
Chief Chaos 02 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM
Ebbie 02 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM
Uncle_DaveO 02 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM
Scoville 02 Apr 04 - 10:08 PM
GUEST,Louise 02 Apr 04 - 11:46 PM
Terry K 03 Apr 04 - 04:39 AM
Chief Chaos 04 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 04 - 07:13 PM
dianavan 05 Apr 04 - 01:11 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Apr 04 - 04:19 AM
freda underhill 05 Apr 04 - 11:32 AM
John MacKenzie 05 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM
Chief Chaos 05 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM
Amos 05 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM
John MacKenzie 05 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM
Amos 05 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM
freda underhill 05 Apr 04 - 02:45 PM
Mrs.Duck 05 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM
Chief Chaos 05 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM
GUEST 05 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM
Amos 05 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,earthling 05 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM
Mrs.Duck 05 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM
freda underhill 05 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM
GUEST,earthling 05 Apr 04 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,freda 06 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM
Chief Chaos 06 Apr 04 - 01:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM
Chief Chaos 07 Apr 04 - 02:04 AM
John MacKenzie 07 Apr 04 - 06:38 AM
Mrs.Duck 07 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM
dianavan 07 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM
Peace 10 Apr 04 - 02:06 PM
John MacKenzie 10 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM
42 11 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM
dianavan 12 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM
Chief Chaos 12 Apr 04 - 04:45 PM
dianavan 12 Apr 04 - 06:05 PM
LilyFestre 12 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM
LilyFestre 12 Apr 04 - 10:06 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Apr 04 - 04:34 AM

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Subject: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM

I was behind a car in traffic today with a sticker on it rear window saying 'Twins on Board' instead of the usual 'Children on board' Why should it make a difference to Joe Public how many kids you have, and whether they are 'On board' or not? It is distinctly possible that there were no children in the car at that time anyway. Does this sign say, 'I'm fertile' or does it say, 'I can't be bothered to look out for my own kids, so can you do it for me'? To me it is further evidence of some parents inability to bring up thier kids without outside help. They present them at school unable to understand the word no, or able to do what they are told, or sit still for 5 mins at a time. In the UK last week a Mother was jailed for failing to ensure that her child attended school, as part of her defence she said that she did not know that her child was playing truant. How can a Mother be totally unaware of the fact that her child is missing school, when it would appear that this particular child had been dodging school for more than 50% of the time. I know that my Mother, who worked full time when I was a kid, would have been asking me how school was, and what homework I had, and if not why not? Kids nowadays just laugh at authority, and there is no effective sanctions teachers or parents can apply.
I know this doesn't apply to all kids, but it does apply to too many these days.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

When your kid drives a better car than you do, maybe it's time to wonder where he's gettin' the money.

I do not like those damned signs: Baby on Board. It's like the rest of the world needs a message, ya know? Lady/Guy: then drive your friggin' vehicle carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:18 PM

Giok: Thanks for this thread. You have directed me to something that irritates the shit outta me: those signs. Gives me something for the Things you Hate thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:22 PM

Actually, I was just thinking people couldn't get much pettier over something as insubstantial as that shit rant about bumper stickers being the moral equivalent of parental abdication of responsibility for their children.

No wonder Republicans keep getting elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:24 PM

You didn't read the post properly, as usual.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:25 PM

..!..


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:26 PM

Post above this is for guest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM

Whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:07 PM

OK John, I'll go along with all the stuff you said about parental responsibility.
On the other hand, if you had been tailgated on the Autobahn as many times as I have been in Germany (while overtaking lines of lorríes) you would understand why I want to vapourise those bastards who drive close when my kids are in the car. A car sticker is a very mild statement compared to what I say to those assholes who race up and down streets which my small children have to cross.
To my knowledge car stickers are responsible for a fairly low number of casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:18 PM

I've never understood why some people seem to get so steamed up over stickers like this. As I understand the thinking behind them, it's probably a hopeful effort to remind the kind of homicidal maniacs who drive around as if they were on some kind of race track that they are sharing the road with vulnerable human beings. You know - the sort who drive right on your tail, and think speed limits are for wimps.

Most cars seem to have a notice on the back window saying which garage they were bought from. Why doesn't that annoy the people who sound off about the baby notices? After all, who gives a monkeys where they bought their cars?

As for parents who fall down on the job, it's a hard job. Much better to concentrate our attention on doing it the best we can ourselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:34 PM

Actually, the notices are supposed to let paramedics or emergency rescue people know that there are children in the vehicle, in case of an accident. You are also supposed to put out some sort of marker to let rescuers know which bedrooms have children in them.

As the parent of 3 children, I have heard no end of complaining about the "special attention" and treatment that children get, as well as the same sort of idiotic ranting that Giok posted above--I am sick of it--it is hard enough to raise children without having some jerk attack you, and your kids.

I don't put up with this crap anymore--Giok and Brucie, so best shut up and go post to a thread that you know something about--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM

Ah Ted a touch paranoid I fear, I'm not getting at you, and I also am a parent. What I am saying is that our children are our responsibility, and nobody elses. The sticker on the window/bumper/fender will never stop idiot drivers, and therefore parents must drive defensively not ask others to do it for them. We could also have, Elderly Person on Board, or any other such homily, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. As was said before the roads are full of nutters so drive accordingly.
As for the parents who don't pay enough attention to what their kids are up to, I stand by my original post.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Sooz
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM

I'm with you Giok as I spend much of my time with children whose parents defend their right to have as many as possible and accept little responsibility for their upbringing. Mind you, I am often surprised what nice chaps some of our teenagers are knowing the homes they come from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Bagpuss
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 03:59 PM

I think of it this way. Now that my baby son is in the car with us, I make sure my husband drives even more carefully than he already does, because my son is the most precious thing to me. Now I know that some people sometimes don't drive as carefully as they should, and if a sign alerting them to the presence of a baby in my car makes them pay that tiny bit more attention and keeps my son a tiny bit safer, then I will carry the sign. Does that mean I am abdicating responsibility?

Anyway I was just reminded of a comedian (I for get who it was) who the press seems to think has twins, but doesnt. Its because he was being interviewed and asked inane questions. He was asked what three things he would save if his house was on fire. he replied "my guitar, my collection of vinyl, and one of the twins...."

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM

I heartily second M.Ted and Mc Grath.

I have such a sticker for exactly the reasons above re accidents and also to gently remind boy racers that there are other people on the road.

But just to thread drift for a moment, I have also noticed that as I get older,some people without kids tend to get tetchier, and their patience towards children dwindles into non existency. Sure they cry and scream and vomit at the drop of a hat, but we all did that at some stage.

Maybe it is because children tend to put life into perspective for us? I worry about a million things a day, but thankfully don't have the time to dwell on bumper stickers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:08 PM

Should people take the sticker down when no kids are in the car, and would they then carry more weight?
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM

Yes you are quite right, we should take the sticker down, but hands up I don't, but will think about it now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:14 PM

Boy racers?

When I drove on HWY 100 (in Maryland) 9 out of 10 times when it was a yuppie mobile speeding it was a female behind the wheel.

It's also become something of the rage in California for the femlaes to compete with the males. Good looking woman with brains and an extremely fast car. You've come a long way baby!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:19 PM

It seems to me by far that right now the most aggressive drivers are young women.

Also, what's with this applying make while driving thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:23 PM

Ok....forget the boy racers, racers of unknown gender do?

And Martin we can't help being adept at multi tasking :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 04:40 PM

Parents today are no more irresponsible than they have ever been.

The only time I exceed the speed limit is when I have the flashers and siren going, and then only for good reason (life at risk, speed of the essense, fire). Even the ambulance is governed at 159 km/hr. People who drive without due care deserve to have their licenses suspended. We no longer call them MVAs (motor vehicle accidents); now, we call them MVCs (motor vehicle collisions). Most accidents are preventable--slow down.

If the sign in the window makes you feel safer, and if you feel it may caution someone to drive more carefully, go for it.

I still think they're useless, but you don't. Have at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM

Sorry boys, but accident and moving violation ticket statistics don't back up your claim that girls and women are the bad drivers. Quite the opposite, in fact. Statistics show that 18-25 year old males are the most dangerous drivers on the road. By a wide margin.

Yet, the thread is about how baby on board bumper stickers are a threat to society.

Like I said, it's easy to see why the Republicans keep winning.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,dinnerlady
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM

I personally don't think those stickers make any difference. Maniac drivers will drive like maniacs whatever and likewise the careful ones. When we were the proud owners of our very first baby we had one of those stickers in the back.Thirteen years later our precious cargo has increased by 4...(including twins!)and we have no sticker...but perhaps we should now be thinking about haveing a huge banner!Now wouldn't THAT piss people off!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 05:31 PM

"Now wouldn't THAT piss people off!"

Not all people. Just the jerks. So please, buy and proudly fly that banner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 05:40 PM

As I remember, the original "Baby On Board" signs were not stickers, but hanging cards that could be displayed or removed easily.. as per this e "UK last week a Mother was jailed for failing to ensure that her child attended school, as part of her defence she said that she did not know that her child was playing truant" if it were a typical incident, it hardly would have made the news.

As for this statement"Kids nowadays just laugh at authority, and there is no effective sanctions teachers or parents can apply" a ridiculous statement--there are always a few difficult kids, but most kids do what they are expected to do most of the time--

People have been complaining about kids since forever--when I was growing up, it was commonly said that teenagers were turning into sex crazed dope fiends, and that depraved teenaged gangs had turned every school into a war zone of some sort. Nowadays, people seem to regard those times as some sort of halcyon, where every kid studied hard, abstained from vice of all sorts, and respected adults--

As far as I can see, there are a few new problems--they are under more pressure than ever from adults, and they get less excercise(and therefore are more prone to being overweight), and everyone seems to want to medicate them--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 06:13 PM

M. Ted said, "Kids nowadays just laugh at authority, and there is no effective sanctions teachers or parents can apply" a ridiculous statement..."

I'm not so sure, Ted. When I was raising my kids, I had one daughter who was completely out of control when she was 15, the only one who was ever a problem. She skipped school even when I drove her there and watched her go in the door -- she would go out another door that I couldn't see. When she went to bed at night and I was sure she was home, and would go to sleep myself, she would sneak out. In other words, she did all sorts of things that were dangerous: smoking, drinking, partying, sleeping around, etc.

At my wits' end, and after she refused to go for individual or family counselling, I went to the police to find out what I could do -- could I take any physical action. The answer was no, I couldn't. I wasn't allowed to lock her in her room, lock the house so she couldn't get back in at night (the "tough love" response), or physically compel her in any way to respect the family's way of life.

At the same time, if she committed any kind of crime at all, I was responsible, as she was a minor.

The story has a happy ending -- she outgrew this ugly phase and is a wonderful young woman. We are very close.

But what is a parent to do when their kid is right over the top and the law ties their hands? I didn't want to beat her -- I simply wanted to prevent her from doing what she was doing, physically if necessary. I had absolute responsibility and absolutely no authority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:01 PM

Haven't we heard this rant before? Kids nowadays have no respect...etc, blah, blah, blah. Every generation seems to think the younger generation is going to the dogs.

Most kids go through a rebellious stage. I know both of mine did. They have turned out to be responsible, caring adults. In fact, I'm surprised they turned out as good as they did. I always say they became the adults they are (quite conservative) in spite of me. We are great friends and I hope they will someday be responsible parents.

...but I still believe it takes a community to raise a child.

What have you done for the kids in your neighborhood lately? Do you even give them a chance to be kind and helpful?

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

I renounce all mine............but thetablet =s hae jusrt kicked in os it probaboly woudjp;jdn't hod up ihn cournt.

She's all yours, but you besk nmaeheke your ouwh picup arangebet,s]]]'''''oo

#TLS


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:42 PM

I didn't say that, pdc, it was Giok that said it--I disagree--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM

As to the stickers...

It tells me that they are responsible and aware of the risks when taking baby on the road. It is a gentle reminder for people to slow down and be careful. I see alot of bumper stickers that are far more offensive. How about, "I'm spending my children's inheritance now" tacked on to a big motorhome, spewing out noxious emissions. It shows wanton disregard for future generations.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Metchosin
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:12 PM

With regard to being truant, when my brother was in Elementary school and I was in Junior High, many years ago, he played hookey by sitting in the attic for two weeks, unknown to our single, working mother. For two of those days, I was home sick and I didn't even know he was up there. This was no small feat, as it was a single floor dwelling, our attic didn't have a floor to sit on, just floor joists and insulation and it got incredibly hot up there.

The school assumed he was ill and finally phoned my mother to find out how he was doing. Maybe it was easier back then to play hookey, because the younger grades rarely got homework and my little brother did not talk much of how he was doing on the best of days anyways, he was a fairly quiet introverted child. But there was no way that my mother could have been considered an irresponsible parent, if anything, she was overconcientious, besides work, she had no life other than my brother and I.

Fortunately for my brother the outcome was beneficial. He had had a particularly nasty teacher who decided to make an example of the only kid in the school who came from what was called then, a "broken home". There was only one parent in our little family, but our home was definitely not broken. My mother managed to get him transferred to another school for the balance of the school year (no mean feat either) and he thrived and went on to become a very decent human being and a damned fine folk muscian to boot.

I don't know the circumstances of the parent in the initial post, but blanket statements get up my nose sometimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:36 PM

I have students who ensure that I get a sample of what is prepared in Home Ec, always. They tell me about their lives, struggles and bright spots. I have met very few kids woh do not have redeeming qualities. In fact, in the past 50 years, I'm probably the worst. Got lost in West Edmonto Mall a few years ago. Saw some kids with chains, purple/yellow/green hair and pierced body parts. Tough looking crew. Ask if they could help me find a certain store. First they tried to explain how to get there. I told them I was screwed because I'd never find it. They walked me there, and we had a good conversation on the way.

Met some kids workin' a wipe racket about 10 years ago on Canal Street in NYC at about 10:00 pm. Stopped and asked what they were doin', because I was from Canada and hadn't seen this particular thing before. They talked with me for 20 minutes about their word, themselves and their street life. When my wife and I were leaving, they told us to be careful because the district had a bad reputation. They were the toughest lookin' guys we saw the whole time we were in the city.

I think that if ya treat people with respect, and take a genuine interest in them, they will treat you back with respect. Never seen it be otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 09:59 PM

John, you've conflated lots of anecdotes and horror stories in your first post to end up with Frankenstein's teenage step-child. It isn't easy raising children, not if you do a good job of it, but if you do a good job if it, it isn't the job from hell, either. I see a healthy cross-section of kids who play with my kids. While some of them can be annoying, my kids know my rules and they don't fail to let their friends know what the house rules are when they come over.

Schools are one of those "lowest common denominator" kinds of places, and there are always bad apples. You do what you can to teach your children how to survive in that environment, and you hope to hell they'll grow and thrive and outlive you. There are children in the middle and high school who are pretty scary, whose parents either aren't paying attention, aren't in control, or who don't care. I think they are the minority.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

I have just survived that passage and all I can say is SRS has the rights of it. It is a matter of constant care and attention and never ghetting it as right as you would like to and never getting the results you hope for, but continuing nevertheless, coaching and training in the skills of dealing with all sorts of beastly semi-human interactions (both from peers and from adults) while striving to keep alive the spark of human compassion at the center.

I think we succeeded but it was as much luck as anything else; anyone who is struggling through it is a quiet hero.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 11:51 PM

M.Ted: sorry, my bad. I looked at the post incorrectly -- indeed you didn't say what I quoted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 03:09 AM

Please read the last sentence of my original post, which states that I know this does not apply to all kids, before accusing me of making blanket condemnations. I repeat, it is not the norm, but is becoming more so.
As for the guest who seems to think the whole discussion is about bumper stickers!!
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM

Well, you did open up with the bumper stickers. ("Bumper stickers" - do you stick them on your bumpers in America? They are on rear windows here.) And it really has nothing whatsoever to do with the question of "abdication of parental responsibility."

To call it " further evidence of some parents inability to bring up thier kids without outside help" is really total nonsense. It may be a futile thing to do, but asking other drivers to try not to kill your children is not asking for "outside help".
....................

The main "abdication of parental responsibility" I am aware of is where both parents go out to work all God's hours, from an early stage in a child's infancy.   And rather than "abdication" all too often this is imposed on them by a culture and governments that think that the only useful work is waged work, and that looking after children should either be something cobbled together in odd bits of spare time ("quality time"), or needs to be professionalised and rigidly structured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:04 AM

Bumper sticker was someone elses nomenclature, not my choice Kevin, and to judge a post just by the opening lines is like saying Moby Dick is all about 'Call me Ahab', or the bible is all about Genesis. What I am trying to discuss is the increasing number of parents who can't manage their kids, and wondering why. Is it something to do with the fact that more people know their rights in this world, than know their responsibilities. What did we do before social work became a growth industry, etc etc?
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:44 AM

We have difficulty in controlling kids because they see, on TV, so many situations where a child is not supervised. I'm stunned at how many children's programmes and U cert movies my daughter watches that contain scenes of children doing blatantly dangerous things without any supervision, parental or not (all three of the Spy Kids movies for instance... not only do they have no adult supervision, they team up with a man whose activities would profile him as a paedophile!).

I know that sounds far-fetched and it probably is, but there are so many programmes showing children acting alone. My daughter thinks it's OK to play on the street in these light evenings and gets very upset when I refuse to let her without supervision. Firstly, it's a pretty dangerous junction we live on and secondly, a boy was abducted from a nearby street last year. The two Soham children were taken by people they knew and presumbably trusted. Do you really think that a 'children playing' sign on the street or sticker on my house window is going to prevent someone from injuring or abducting her?


The whole idea of those signs was to alert other drivers to the fact that there is possibly a child in the car and the parent would be very grateful if you backed off about 30 feet or didn't come up quite so fast behind. It also alerted the emergency services to the fact that there might be a child on board if there were to be an accident. Personally, my experience tells me that no amount of signs or warnings on any vehicle with contents ranging from children to liquid oxygen to corrosive acids to farmyard produce, animal, vegetable or mineral will put off that proportion of drivers who think they are the only people on the road.   

In fact, despite the 'baby on board' sticker we had, I was pulled over one evening for DRIVING TOO CAREFULLY - I was doing 30mph in a 40mph area, at 11.15pm, when I knew there would be idiots on the road coming home from the pub.

Go figure!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:12 AM

Suppose, for just a moment, that the sticker is simply a "proud" parent - pleased to have the twins as a miracle of birth? Letting the world know how happy they are?


Just my .01 worth -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 09:21 AM

Agreed Norton, but surely they wouldn't be proud of the 'evil twin' after all, there is always one 'evil twin'.... : )

(I know 3 sets of twins but have yet to find the 'good twin'.... I suspect they were triplets and the 'good' one is walled up in the East wing).

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 10:17 AM

Ok, maybe this would be less annoying if you saw it on your neighbour's car ...

*Homo Sapiens of Various Ages and Sizes Who Would Never In A Million Years Abdicate Either Personal or Parental Responsibilities Aboard*

All better now? I hope so! But I just hafta ask - why waste energy being so disagreeable and irritable over something so (relatively) trivial and benign? Been eating rusty old spikes for breakfast lately, or something of that nature?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 10:37 AM

"the increasing number of parents who can't manage their kids"

Is it increasing? Perhaps it is, but then perhaps it isn't. Perhaps it is some places and perhaps it isn't some others. It has, for example. been suggested that younger parents may be more into disciplining their children than their parents were. Who knows?

Before arguing about why something is the case, it is good practice to determine that it is in fact the case.

.................

So are we to take it you've backed off on the stickers, Giok, and agree that they have nothing to do with the issue you were wanting to raise? Sort of like banging a drum to gather a crowd before starting a juggling act.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:02 AM

Crass generalization about crass generalization: I suspect that it is always the case that the current generations always think that the generations before them had a simpler, perhaps more pastoral time of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:04 AM

Giok,

You say,"What I am trying to discuss is the increasing number of parents who can't manage their kids" and what we are saying is, we don't think that there is any evidence that that is true.

Parents have always had a certain amount of trouble managing their kids, simply because growing up is the process of taking over control of your own life, and that means breaking away from all the people whose responsibility has been to manage you--

What is true is that our society has become a lot less tolerant of the process of growing up--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:19 PM

"growing up is the process of taking over control of your own life, and that means breaking away from all the people whose responsibility has been to manage you"

In some ways that's true, but I think we sometimes think that the pattern we have in the last couple of generations is built in and immutable. In fact I'd suspect that it's very much a reflection of the fact that, unlike in most societies, children and young people are not involved with their parents in the process of collectively making a living, or actively running the household.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:22 PM

A civilization built of teams of one makes for unstable groupings and a lot of travel.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

This is how my son and I solved the problem of crazy aggressive drivers on the road:

We stopped using roads

( ...there he is doing a quick fly-by tour of the Vatican)

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM

I don't know what it is like over there Kevin, but around here, nothing is built-in or immutable--in certain ways, a much older way of life has emerged--we are U-haul bedouins who move from one city to another, looking for the greener pasture. When the kids get old enough, they hit the road too. If we're lucky, we manage to cross paths at the holidays--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:27 PM

Nomadism is a pretty old way of ife, true enough, M.Ted - though it's not the one that's been common in most parts of the world, including Europe, for a good few thousand years.

But generally nomads operate in pretty close social groups and families, even when these are broken down temporarily during moves. The pattern you describe, I'd say, is a pretty recent development, no more than a handful of generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:35 PM

Say! Why don't we all just make it a point to drive safely? Would that be too much to ask?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM

Maybe some of the troubles of controlling kids today (or, indeed, at any time) stems partly from the fact that previous generations see the need for such "control".

Few people like to be be controlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:52 PM

It seems to me that (in the US and Canada at any rate) most people these days think the term "speed limit" means "minimum allowed speed", and that everyone is bound by the rules of the highway to go at least ten miles an hour above the limit.

I wish traffic cops would issue a lot more speeding tickets than they do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 01:54 PM

I once read -- and I have no idea where -- that the majority of moving accidents occurred among people going slower than the speed limit, not those who were exceeding it. I am not sure that speed limits are the best approach to reckless driving. I don't have anything better to siuggest, unfortunately, other than penalizing actual damage done.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:08 PM

Not withstanding McGrath's assertions--it occurs to me that the reason that humankind have spread out so much is that someone got fed up with someone else's control and took a hike--"Why are you wandering the tundra here in Lappland, I thought your tribe was from the Mediteranean?" "My parents are completely nuts, and this is as far away from them as we could get."


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:34 PM

More often I'd think it was. "We didn't get on at all with some of our the neighbours, so we thought we'd move somewhere better for the sake of the kids."

..................

Even if it were true that there are more accidents at slower speed, the other factor is that the damage caused is a lot less.

The Road Safety people are always quoting statistics showing how, if a car at 20 miles an hour hits a pedestrian, they will almost certainly survive, but if it's 40 miles an hour the chances are strongly against them living.

Hit a tree at 40mph and you'll be standing there swearing and phoning your insurance. Hit it at 80 mph and you almost certainly won't be. Two cars travelling 40 miles an hour in a head-on crash is 80 mph, which is bad enough - but if they're doing 60 mph, that makes it 120 mph combined. Nasty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 02:37 PM

Plus, in Amos' factoid, no mention is made of people going the actual speed limit. It only addresses people going above or below the speed limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 04 - 08:45 PM

The speed limit here is 75 mph on the highway, 65 in "built-up" areas -- thats on the Interstates. It varies on state roads, usually 65 is the top.

Mind you, nobody actually does 75 or whatever.... But there IS an awful lot of an awful lot out here.

My only objection to the "Baby on board" type of sign is that it points out a vehicle for someone who might be less than nice, shall we say? And they are getting old -- I've see "Beer on board" recently.

But abdication of parental responsibility -- well, every public library I know has been forced to put in place policies and procedures for dealing with children left there while the parents went off somewhere else. And while libraries like kids, they cannot be responsible for their safety or welfare, especially when the parent leaves NO information about anything. And I'm not talking about dashing next door for noodles -- I'm talking about leaving the kids there for hours, and often after the library closes for the day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 03:17 AM

Well Rap, you'll just have to give them a Dewey Decimal classification, then you can put them on the correct shelf.¦¬]
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:14 AM

i have some friends who were completely lousy parents, notoriously bad in every way. Irresponsible, swinging between spoiling their kid and dumping her around onto other people because they couldnt stand her. She was an outspoken, obnoxious, brat.

She's grown up into a very nice young woman, has studied a course in ethical real estate, and is now making a packet.

despite our best efforts to foul kids up, they can turn out to be pretty good.

and some parents try so hard, are so committed, and have the heartbreak of losing a kid to drugs.

its so easy to be critical of parents. every parent knows its the hardest job in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:33 AM

It's a serious problem, John. If the kid gets sick, we have no one to call but the paramedics. If the kid disappears, we'd have no idea if s/he was abducted or simply taken home by Mom or Dad. If they're still there when we close (9 p.m., Mon - Thu, 6 p.m. on Fri and Sat), we'll wait 15 minutes with them and then call the cops. It's unfair to both the library AND the children, and an abdication by the parents. (I'm talking of young children -- I've seen two-year-olds left; fortunately we were able to get THAT taken care of right away!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:45 AM

Somnetimes those kind of things happen (toddlers dumped in libraries) because of selfishness and iresponsibility; but I'd guess that, more often than not, it's because the parent involved is trying to do more than is humanly possible, doing two jobs at once, for various reasons, by no means all of their own making.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Bagpuss
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 09:58 AM

I think there has been a complete schism in parental behaviour recently, and both extremes, I believe can cause a lot of harm to the child. On the one hand there are parents who do seem to abandon responsibility for them and let the go whereever they want whenever they want and have no control over them. On the other hand in recent years the blaze of national publicity given the child abduction and murder cases has seen an increase in children constantly being chaperoned by their parents, being kept indoors to play and being driven everywhere. Besides contributing to lack of exercise and obesity in children, i also believe this stunts their growth in learning independent skills and confidence in the world around them.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:05 AM

Well Bagpuss, you really take the cake here--criticizing parents for trying to protect their children from abuse, abduction, and violence and heavy traffic...because you believe it stunts their growth in learning independent skills---


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:30 AM

"Ethical Real Estate" - is that on Mars, Venus, or further?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 12:18 PM

Oi, Liz how did you find out about our triplet?? I never have used the 'baby on board' style stickers but that is because I could think of better things to do with my money! I have no objection to them at all as if nothing else it lets me know that the car in front may take manoeuvres a bit more slowly and carefully. As to whether it makes a difference if its one two or however many kids then the answer is yes! Well behaved children are still children with all the demands (I need a wee, I've dropped my toy etc.) of any child and no matter how good a driver you may be this can be a distraction. Extra children mean extra possible distractions!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Bagpuss
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 01:50 PM

M Ted, I wasnt criticising those parents. I recognise that they do what they do for the best of motives - to protect their children. I just think it should be recognised that the effect of this can have negative consequences. And I think a lot of the blame lies with the media. If you asked any parent if they thought that their children were more or less in danger of abduction/murder by a stranger than they were as kids, I'm sure the vast majority would say they were in more danger. In fact the rate of child murders by a stranger has stayed pretty constant over the last 50 years. It just seems more, because every case is plastered all over the news, in a way that was much rarer in the past. This has created a paranoia among parents that i think ultimately can have negative consequences. the type of parenting that in the past would have been seen as hugely over-protective is now being seen more and more as the norm. And agreed, the danger on the roads is increasing, but I think you have to deal with that by teaching road safety and making sure your child doesnt go across certain roads known to be dangerous, rather than trying to remove the threat altogether. You can never be sure you child is 100% safe, and that is scary, but if you try to make them 100% safe, you are just exposing them to different dangers. And I think if you ask any child development expert, they would agree that this is a real problem. If you never let your children be exposed to any risks, they are never going to learn how to handle risk and keep themselves safe when they DO have to make decisions for themselves. And again, we all know the problems of obesity in children is escalating, partly because of this over protective phenomenon.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:28 PM

Rather like the suggestion that parents, who are too careful about keeping everything clean and make sure that their children are never exposed to dirt and so forth, are probably damaging the child's immune system, with potentially disatrous results when it needs to kick in, in a crisis.

Then you get parents who are careful to make sure their child has a reliable mobile phone ("cellphone"), so they can keep in touch. And then come the warnings that having a good mobile makes a child much more liable to be mugged for it.

You can't really win being a parent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Terry K
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:32 PM

Well said Bagpuss.

I'd just like to be sure that parents understand that children are real people - perhaps smaller and younger - but who need constant and ongoing help, guidance, love and affection. Many parents seem to treat their children as one of the necessary accessories to family life, rather like the mortgage, the dog and the 4 x 4.

And incidentally, "a recent survey" showed that most of the teenagers who "go wrong" were smacked by their parents when they were growing up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:46 PM

Sorry Terry K, but I just don't believe that statistic. What MAY be true is that more blue collar workers inflict corporal punishment on their kids, and more of their kids get in trouble with the law. Statistics like that need to be broken down by class and/or income before they can be said to represent the true facts. Never forget the old adage, 'There are lies, damned lies, and statistics'.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:50 PM

Depending where and when the children involved were growing up, it'd be quite likely that a majority of them would have been smacked in the process, both those who "go wrong" and those who don't.

The trouble is "smacking" is a very elastic term that can cover a very wide range of behaviour, and is often used as a camouflage term. And the other trouble is that, even without physical violence of any sort, it is possible to treat children very badly indeed.

The best way to learn to be a good parent is to have good parents. Which begs the question, what is a good parent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Bagpuss
Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:55 PM

I may be wrong but I dont think Terry K was saying that smacking causes kids to go off the rails, its just you often hear people lamenting the behaviour of kids these days, and say that its because they aren't physically disciplined. But if many of the kids who go off the rails have been physically disciplined, it throws that argument out of the water.

Having done some research in the area of kids with behavioural problems, I would say that it is the case that many of the kids who go badly off the rails have not just been smacked, but have been physically and emotionally abused by their carers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Terry K
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 12:49 AM

Wrong Giok, it was a bland statement intended to promote my voice against the fact that most parents still smack their children, as both McGrath and Bagpuss spotted.

This may be thread drift (but so what) but the smacking is a problem because of the emotional damage it causes - from the child's point of view it is a terrible rejection when the supposed protector becomes the aggressor. Adults in receipt of mental cruelty are protected by the law, children not so.

And children are very good learners - here's another bland atatement - "most of those who were smacked become smackers".


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:09 AM

Terry K - You are right. The smacked become the smackers.

These same children are often discipline "problems" in the classroom too because the only kind of discipline they respond to is a smack (and they know the teacher won't). No matter how well they respond to guidance at school, they return every night to the smackers.

...and we start all over again the next day.

Its an INEFFECTIVE method of discipline. Which takes it right out of the morality zone. It just doesn't work.

Are the bumper stickers effective? They probably were for the first year. Now they are so common, other drivers probably pay no attention to them anyway.

d


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:54 AM

In the biblical spirit of an eye for an eye to which some subscribe. Should a child who strikes another child be struck likewise? Will this then inevitably lead them to become violent towards their own offspring later? Might it make them realise that what they have done causes hurt and offence? Might they grow up to be in favour of capital punishment? Could it even be that they will realise what they did was wrong, and never do it again?
All of the above can be proved or disproved by statistical research, and the answers to your research depend on what questions you ask, and how you ask them. In other words most poll results are subjective not objective, and are usually conducted and/or promoted by people with a particular axe to grind.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:07 AM

OK, to go completely off the subject of parental responsibility and back onto those little signs - I'd love to do a count of cars parked in 'family parking' spots - those designated by the little pictogram of a pushchair or a baby - and see just how many of those 'baby on board' signs are false. Many's the time I've had to struggle with a baby, pushchair, baby accoutrements and a pink furry toy, in 8 inches of space available in ordinary parking spaces, when the 'family parking' is full of single occupant, unable to walk more than 10 yards unaided drivers and their 4X4 vehicles that are too big to get into normal spaces.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 09:58 AM

Most of the kids that go wrong have been smacked -

Empty statistic in my eyes, totally meaningless unless you can make an argument for the corrolary that most of the people who go right (whatever that means) have never been touched.

We had a neighbor with a child that she refused to discipline with anything more than a time out. He'd abuse the other children (hitting, biting, etc.) sit out his five or ten minutes and then go right on back to his anti-social behaviors.

I'm not saying that people should beat their children but a good smack on the ass isn't a problem with me.

And as far as that goes I was spanked as a child and I'm a good productive member of society, not on welfare, not sitting in a jail cell or worse. I believe that makes me a deviation from your hypothesis. and what about the leftover bad people who weren't smacked?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 10:34 AM

Of course there are worse things to do to children than smack them. Not that it isn't a pretty futile thing to do, and a very ineffective way of disciplining. Generally it's just a way of getting a message across to a child, and there are normally plenty of other ways to do that.

If it's hard enough to hurt so badly that a child is frightened into behaving in a different way, that's not "smacking", and it's not something that is tolerable. Anyone who seriously tries to shape a child's behaviour by means of pain is probably wasting their time, unless the pain is severe enough to do the job, which with a brave child could mean pretty severe. Severe enough to knock the courage out. Is that the idea?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 01:45 PM

To get back to Bagpuss:

You said--" in recent years the blaze of national publicity given the child abduction and murder cases has seen an increase in children constantly being chaperoned by their parents, being kept indoors to play and being driven everywhere"--

As a parent, I can assure you that fear of abduction and murder is not a big reason that the kids are being constantly driven around--it is a lifestyle issue--kids have to make "playdates" because often, friends are not in the immediate neighborhood, schedules have to be compared and coordinated , and an acceptable meeting place or activity has to be selected, time is at a premium--You drive because "the healthy choice" isn't really an option--

As far as the stranger/abduction/murder issue--though that is a relatively rare, though fairly constant, occurance, there are other child related violence issues--

At the most extreme, the both the murder rate, and the actual number of murders is much greater than in 1950--in 1992, the rate was nearly double that of 1950, and the actual numbers were triple--depending on the year, minors are the victim in between 2000 and 4000 homicides--

Even so, homicides are a relatively small problem--according to the National Center for Educational Statistics, "unsafe conditions at school are not uncommon. About half of 6th- through 12th-grade students personally witnessed bullying, robbery, or physical assault at school, and about 1 out of 8 students reported being directly victimized at school."

While it is true that some violent crimes involving minors are declining--bullying and gang related violence(which includes assault and murder) is increasing--

Parents who percieve that their children have a significant risk of becoming victims to violence are not merely responding to media hype--


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM

Are friends really "less likely to be in the immediate neigbourhood" than in the past?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

McG of H:

As a youth I went for a smoke in a lane two blocks from where I lived. The news got home before I did. That was 46 years ago. In many ways, society has become somewhat less caring--we have asked for laws to replace common sense. A few years ago I saw a youngster ride his bike into the road from a lane. He paid no attention to traffic--I hit the binders. It was in a small town. I didn't hit him, but I did get out of the car to see if he was 'shaken up'. He was. He knew me as a teacher at the school he attended. We talked for a few minutes and I told him I'd have to speak with his folks about it. He was dead set against the idea, because I think he figured he'd be in for a spanking. Instead, we made a 'solemn' pact that he would

1) stop and look before he entered streets from lanes
2) show me three times how he would do that

I saw him a few weeks later stopping at a lane where it met the street. I honked him and he waved and gave me a smile. Often, other methods work better than a spanking. At least in this case it did.

I am not in favour of spanking as a means of discipline. I received the starp a number of times in school. Didn't teach me a damn thing. I needed a hug, not a beating.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM

Yes McGrath, they very likely are. Limpit's 5 best friends live 2 streets away, in Exeter, in Norwich and in Dorset. The majority of her friends at school live in the area, but not within safe walking distance (where I can still see her to the door) The road is so busy that I won't allow her to cross it alone, there are no pedestrian crossings for 800 yards or more in either direction.

Also, the majority of her friends' parents, like me, work, so they are at different childminders. If the childminders make an agreement they can see each other after school, but otherwise, they meet only at school. Where the parents are divorced or separated, weekends are limited.

When I'm at work, I see Limpit for maybe an hour in the morning and between 6 - 8 in the evening, if I'm not working late and she goes to bed early.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:07 AM

I hope that if your child is at "significant risk" of being bullied, you are doing more that driving him everywhere. I hope you are telling him/her how to recognize bullying behaviour and to walk away. If the bully persists, teach him to find an adult and report the behaviour.

You won't be able to protect your child forever. Sooner or later, he/she must learn how to solve the problem when parents aren't around. Yes, playdates are far more common today. Yes, children often attend school far from home. Many children do not know any of the kids in their neighborhood. Many are socially disconnected.

From personal observation, the happiest, most well-adjusted students are those that can walk to school with a group of friends and an adult escort (this duty can be rotated) and have good friends in their own neighborhood. I know that this isn't always possible when parents are working but it is a very good step to insuring a healthy and secure social world for your child.

I'm not saying this to make anyone feel guilty. I know the world is changing rapidly. I say this because I care about the kids I see everyday. Kids who are so tightly scheduled that have little opportunity to develop their own social network. Without a social network of friends, you become very vulnerable to bullies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:00 AM

The world changes, but not everything changes, and not in the same way or the same pace everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Terry K
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:45 AM

Chief Chaos -

"empty statistic in my eyes, totally meaningless unless you can make an argument....."

It's not a statistic, nor is anyone trying to make an argument

"I believe that makes me a deviation from your hypothesis"

There is no hypothesis either, as, if you had read the post, you may have noticed;

"it was a bland statement intended to promote my voice against the fact that most parents still smack their children, as both McGrath and Bagpuss spotted"

The rest of your post is more of the same tedious stuff trotted out by those who want to perpetuate something which is at best useless and at worst, wholly wrong.

Think about it - are children allowed to hit children? No.

Are adults allowed to hit adults? No.

Are children allowed to hit adults? No.

Are adults allowed to hit children? "Well it never did me any harm".

Sorry, it just doesn't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:20 AM

Has anybody told the children that they're not allowed to hit each other, or adults?
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:54 AM

Holy mackerel, Martin!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:20 AM

i beleive that martin's twin brother appears to be causing a bit of trouble tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:38 AM

Dianavan (somewhere back there) said, in part:

Haven't we heard this rant before? Kids nowadays have no respect...etc, blah, blah, blah. Every generation seems to think the younger generation is going to the dogs.

Three verses from a poem I read a long time ago:

Ugh, the caveman, in prehistoric bogs
Said, "The world is going to the dogs."

Great-Grandpa, in his house of logs
Said, "The world is going to the dogs."

There's just one thing I'll have to state:
The dogs have had a good long wait!

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM

Cry havoc, and let loose the dogs of war!
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM

It's not so much tat every generation exaggerates this thing. Rather its that every now and again it goes into reverse. I imagine that is probably going to happen in the next quarter century of so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

"And incidentally, "a recent survey" showed that most of the teenagers who "go wrong" were smacked by their parents when they were growing up." - your quote, not mine.

You're the one that brought that up and an analysis of the statement would lead any intelligent person to the conclusion that the reason that these children went "wrong" is because they were "smacked". This is the hypothesis that you postulated in your post. And yes it is an argument because you are now trying to back up your position by attacking my reposte. I mean nothing personal by this, I don't know you, but the above statement, without evidence to support the conclusions and without the corollary proving that the "smacking" is the determining factor between "going wrong" and "going right"(whatever that means).

"promote my voice against the fact that most parents still smack their children"

Do most parents still smack their children?

I don't want to sound like some others who post here and ask where you found that and what the actual numbers are, but that's a pretty broad brush there. And if your first statement and second statement are factual then their should be very few "children who have gone right".

"The rest of your post is more of the same tedious stuff trotted out by those who want to perpetuate something which is at best useless and at worst, wholly wrong."

I see that your mind is already closed on this subject where at least I am willing to point out the other side that there are good people who have been "smacked" and there are bad people who have never been "smacked". If you can provide me with concrete scientific evidence which supports your statements then I have been going about things entirely the wrong way and have some serious apologizing and thinking to do.

You feel and think that "smacking" (without defining the term) children is the major factor in them "going wrong". I beg to differ, without animosity, that getting a child's attention with a smack on the bum when they are doing something wrong can be (not "is" or "always is") instrumental in setting that child right. It is not the end of the lesson. It must be followed through with an explanation of why they got "smacked" and what the results could be if they continue their behavior.

Pain is the body's major defense and learning tool. Just try to hold your hand on a hot burner and see if the pain doesn't teach you anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

...an analysis of the statement would lead any intelligent person to the conclusion that the reason that these children went "wrong" is because they were "smacked".

Noone with a glimmering of an understanding of logic would draw that conclusion from that statement.

"Most people who drink and drive have tea or coffee for breakfast." That is unquestionably true. However if somebody drew the conclusion from that that drinking tea or coffee for breakfast was the cause of drunk driving, they would not be properly categorised as "any intelligent person".


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

But what you could conclude from that would be that drinking tea or coffee for breakfast does not prevent you from drunk driving.

In the same way, the logical conclusion from the remark Chief takes exception to is that it suggests that being smacked as a child does not prevent a child from "going wrong".


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM

Bumper Sticker: "Horn Don't Work; Watch for Finger"

:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

Re: "Smacking"

We need to clear up a few things here:

What consitutes "smacking"? A single "whop on the bottom", as was so eloquently mentioned above? A slap on the cheek, from the wrist? A beating with a belt? A full-arm-swing blow on the ear? Surely it's not meaningful to discuss the "statistical" quote above without knowing these things.

And, whatever that definition, then we have "parents who smacked"-- what does that mean in frequency terms? One incident in say thirteen years? (I wish I had that kind of reserve.) Occasional spankings with a hard hand? Daily beatings?

And what kind of teaching or admonishment went with the "smacking"? None at all? A soul-searching this-hurts-me-more-than-it-hurts-you talk, complete with sobs by the parent? A profane and/or belittling dressing-down?

And then the "recent survey": Who did it? What was the study plan? What were the qualifications of the surveyor?

The observation about the "statistics" of "smacking" and "going bad" is completely worthless.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Scoville
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:08 PM

I often feel like I need a "Car-Sick Dog on Board" sticker for days when I have to take said dog somewhere so people understand that I'm not driving slowly just to be annoying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,Louise
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 11:46 PM

Looking back on my upbringing, I realize that I knew for every nanosecond of my existence that my parents loved me and would do whatever they could for my welfare. I believe that had a much greater impact on me than any flawed child rearing practices they used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Terry K
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:39 AM

Exactly as you say Louise, and that's my whole point - many clearly "get it" while others clearly don't. Mine is just a gentle campaign to dissuade parents from using flawed child rearing practices just because they are ingrained in them because of their parents flawed practices, and so on.

cheers, Terry


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM

Terry K -

Way to switch sides when you finally have seen the light! I have always felt that the "time-out" method was severely flawed myself. I agree that parents who employ this severely flawed child rearing practice just don't get it. After all we have for years in this great country had grown-up time out facilities where the most violent offendors spend years of their lives without learning anything at all (except how to prehaps avoid getting caught the next time and/or how to commit new crimes). I have heard, although I can't quote any studies or statistics, that their is a high rate of attrition. I wish parents would get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:13 PM

I agree with Chief on that. There are other things parents can do to their children with the best of intentions whch can be worse than hitting them. (That doesn't mean hitting them is a good idea or a very effective way of controlling situations or getting a message across.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:11 AM

Your right, there are more effective ways. First you explain the difference between a right and a privilege. Then you take away a privilege if they persist in doing something wrong. Its called logical consequences. They have to earn it back.

Too many parents want to be their kid's friend instead of their parent. They are afraid of denying them anything at all. Many kids are growing up believing that they are entitled to anything they want and that they have all the power. They also do not respect their parents.

Earning privileges works well.



d


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:19 AM

Dianavan. Yes yes yes. The trite phrase, 'My Mom, [and it's nearly always the Mother],is more like my best friend' turns my stomach. Like it or not there is a heirarchy in this world, and it's part of growing up, learning how the system works.
Remember the remark attributed to Mark Twain, amongst others,
'When I was 14, I could hardly stand my Father, didn't even want him around. By the time I had turned 21, I was amazed to find out how much the old boy had learnt in 7 years'
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:32 AM

Children need to know what is socially acceptable and what isn't.
When my children were naughty, they were sent to their room until they got it together. Even though there were toys,books, etc in the room, they took it as a punishment. It worked. However, there were times (not many) when they were spanked. I can remember doing it to my youngest daughter twice, once when she was aged around 4-5, the other time when she was older.

however, before the punishment, they got an explanation and opportunity for them to right their behaviour without coercion. If that didnt work, it was off to the room.

Being an authority figure is a strain, and a pain in the neck. Now that my little darlings are in their 20s, we are friends. very good friends, and I dont think theres anything icky or irresponsible about that.

I am pleased with my children and the lives they are leading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Yes Freda, but you're also their Mother, it's when it's said in the sycophantic tones of a daughter/son which implies that friends is all they are, and the inconvenient parent thing has been shelved.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM

That's the problem with time out nowadays.
Send them to a room full of video games, their own TV, their own phone, their own computer, etc. etc.
It really didn't work all that well for me and all I had was a great imagination. If that wasn't working it was always a great nap time. Fully rested and ready to get into more mischief.

I'm sory to take such a contrary position on something like this as I really like kids and I have seen a few where discipline was well out of hand. But I have seen others that could have used a good kick in the ass that were "little angels" in thier mothers eyes that could be denied nothing and held accountable for nothing. Sometimes ignorance is worse than "violence".

My mother in law keeps telling my wife that she wishes she had never "laid a hand" on her while she was growing up. She never did so with my brother in law. My wife is the proud parent of two children, works in stained glass, neither smokes nor drinks and has never been in trouble with the law outside of a speeding ticket. My brother in law smokes, drinks, does weed, has excessive speeding tickets (quality and quantity there), nearly blew his face off with a home made explosive device, and had a friend killed while performing a chinese fire drill in his jeep (while the jeep was moving..it rolled over and the friend who was driving snapped his neck).

So I'm drawing on my personal experience in these cases instead of relying on someone else to tell me how to be a parent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

Hitting is no sort of solution at all. It's like borrowing -- all it does is defer the solution.

Denial of communication, denial of affinity, denial of the things that say "you are real" is what makes time-outs and similar disciplines painful and therefore effective, but they have to be used with compassion. They can have ugly long-term consequences if they are used in excess.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM

Can I be the first to bring in the biblical quote,'Spare the rod, and spoil the child'
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

Sure, Jock, but biblical or no, it's a crock. The issue is not training a child in pain aversion, but in inculcating a sense of compassionate control. That does not require violence in any form. I am willing to bet there are hundreds of thousands of children who were spared physical punsihment int heir childhood and tuend out better for it, and comparable numbers who were bent for the worse by it. I wish I had statistics to support this certainty with, though! :>)

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:45 PM

I agree with you there, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Sorry but hitting and smacking are not the same thing! Hitting implies physical abuse whereas a smack is not admimistered to cause pain but to remind a child that what they are doing is wrong and may be causing harm to themselves or others. If my kids over step the mark or refuse to listen to reason they get a smacked bottom - quite frankly I doubt if it hurts much at all but they stop what they are doing! By the time they are old enough to understand reasoning (probably not before seven) it is not necessary. And will my children become smackers - well I hope so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

Amos,

What you are talking about is not the time out that is being used so uselessly throughout the world. You are talking about "shunning" as used by the Amish. This is far more destructive than any spanking. The inner city is full of kids wondering if anyone cares they are alive because daddy didn't stick around and Momma's too busy trying to keep the families head above water to pay them the attention they really deserve.
Time Out usually is a punishment that only lasts a short time and unfortunately does none of what you suggest. Especially in a world with such a short attention span.

Denying affinity, communication and denial of things that say "you are real" would get you booked with "Child abandonment and abuse" charges in almost any American city.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM

I love my children unconditionally. I limit/constrict and contr\oll them. I am at home when the go to school, I am there when they return. I have expectations and they meet most of them. I trust them, respect them and admire them. I do not exprect the sitter, a daycare, social services or public school to provide them with values.
   They are wonderful kids...but it is very hard work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

CC:

I think you have exaggerated my meaning. I was talking about using the light form of discipline which makes it clear that 'if you engage in unwanted forms of communication, that doesn't have to be supported by others'. This takes five minutes of solitude to get across. I would have thought this would be clear from my addendum "but they have to be used with compassion. They can have ugly long-term consequences if they are used in excess". Sounds like you're talking about the excessive form.

So.. if you feel timeouts are used uselessly, what sort of control or discipline do you recommend for parents to manage children with? If any...

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM

I agree that there is a difference between smacking and hitting, but am grateful to have never relied on either to get my point across.

A situation hasn't got so out of control that me raising my hand has been the only course of action to take. But that is just my experience.

I would not try and discourage smackers from smacking, so long as they limit their hands to their own kids. But I certainly would not let a teacher or any other authority figure lay a finger on mine.

Personally I wouldn't want that on my conscience. I feel that as a 'reasonable rational adult', I should be able to defuse an argument without bullying, and that is how I see it, big person hurting little person is bullying.

Now saying all that, I do have sympathy for the mum who has just watched her child dash out onto a road without looking, and narrowly missed being hit by a bus, that is the situation where I am most likely to see smacking in the street, and it always seems borne out of shock and fright on the parents part. Touchwood that is one incident we have avoided so far.

I watched a girl from my daughter's class being heavily chastised once on a school outing, by her mother, she was dragged across a grassy area and given a heavy wallop when the mother thought she was out of sight. She was five years old and her crime...wanting to take her shoes off and paddle in a kids pool, that was full of children from her class doing exactly that. It came as no surprise when we later found out that the little girl in question was bullying other children in her playground,to the extent that the head teacher had to call her mother in for " a chat". Children learn by imitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

Rubbish it is NOT bullying to smack a child!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM

well, while we're onto this subject, what about looking at the whole way a parent relates to a child? (apart from the physical punishment bit)

I'm thinking here of a woman i know who constantly told her children how naughty they were all the time. You guessed it, the kids became the most naughty, mischievous, wicked kids you could come across, revelling in their role.

We can easily destroy a child's self belief, confidence, goodness, by contantly demolishing them, comparing them negatively with someone else, telling them how useless they are etc.

What is so important is spending positive time with kids, making sure they are busy, developing themselves, engaged, following their talents and interests. And if they get that chance, they will be learning how to spend their time contructively, how to do things, how to amuse and develop themselves. and there wont be such a need to nag, whinge or slap, to pull them into line or modify their behaviour.

I'm not suggesting the sort of starry eyed "you're wonderful" response to a kid whose singing and is tone deaf. I'm talking about practical interests, and encouraging them with the things they like.

And humour, another way of getting a message through to kids. Dry jokes, irony, making a point. They get the message!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:55 PM

Couldn't agree more Freda, especially on the humour...not sure why that works but it does. I think they are somewhat confused by it and shocked into listening! Much easier to reason with them then, than when they are feeling humiliated and in pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM

..they may even learn how to spell, too, with a bit of luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:22 PM

Amos,

Sometimes time out works, sometimes punishments such as getting a good taste of soap works.

I don't think that treating a child like a grown-up works. You can not bargain with a child. They want what they want, when they want it, and can see no reason at all that they should be denied. I have seen far too many parents with their youngsters in tow kicking and screaming and crying because mommy or daddy wouldn't get them what they wanted.

There are only a few ways of getting people to do what needs to be done. I have already said that appealing to their better selves doesn't work with children as they have a very short view of the world (it revolves around them).
That leaves reward or aversion. Reward is a good choice but it leaves you owing the child something (other than the loving they should already be getting)for every time they behave. Lets teach them all how to blackmail us! (My children only wanted more love when it was time for bed and they could delay going to bed by asking for hugs and kisses all around the house).

Aversion (spanking) lets them know that their behavior is not acceptable, will not be tolerated, and will be a bad experience for them. It is not revenge. It is not swift and righteous punishment.
It also seems to have worked well in that when my children were still of an age to throw tantrums a threat of a spanking was enough to elicit sober behavior.

By the way, a child who has never seen a sword will pick up a stick and whack his sister with it regardless of whether the parent "smacks" that child or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM

Smacking isn't a big deal, but it does provide a cover for stuff that is much worse. It doesn't tell a child anything - such as "that their behavior is not acceptable" - which can't be communicated without smacking.

But if you keep your eyes open around supermarkets you see plenty of examples of ways of dealing with kids that while not involving smackong a such are pretty disturbing. Yanking on the arms, shouting, cold hard anger.

Basically a smack is a way of saying "I am angry". Stamping the foot can sometimes be as effective for getting that across.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:04 AM

Actually I used to try to use passive law enforcement holds. These are specifically taught and used so that any pain that the detainee feels is being inflicted by themselves upon themselves due to their own actions and will stop if they just stop resisting. Didn't work.
Stamping the foot for me only worked on a dog that was trying to face me down. Unfortunately for me the neighbor of the owner thought I had kicked the dog.

I don't know what else to suggest here. I am against child abuse but I guess my definition is as different as a vegetarian's is to a true vegan. I'm also against animal cruelty but I don't think it's cruel to go fishing or hunting. Go figure.

Pax!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:38 AM

In most children's life there comes a moment when a smack is appropriate. A smack is different from a beating, I was beaten as a child, and still rememember and resent it. Smacking can be appropriate, and must be used appropriately, it should be the final, and not the first resort.
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:49 AM

Hear, hear John!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

I actually spanked my son once and it was the last resort. He kept banging his head on the plate glass window and watching it vibrate. I tried everything! He was too young to reason with. I blocked it off with a table. He found a chair. He'd even wait until I was out of sight to start doing it again. I was desperate. It was his first spanking. I dreaded it but it was for his personal safety. I still remember it in slow motion. He never banged his head again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:06 PM

When a child swears at his mother, slap the father.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM

So Brucie, does that mean when a child breaks the law jail his parent/s?
John


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: 42
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

all the best intentions in the world, every child-rearing manual ever printed, all the advice received from friends, relations and total strangers can ever prepare anyone to be a parent. (that would be me)

   Healthy, self confident, psychologically well adjusted, caring, well educated, financially stable people can be terrible parents in some circumstances. Frustration,despair, anger... all words with which parents become familiar - along with joy, amazement and small miracles.

   Giving children the opportunity to recognize, at an early age, the fact that they have responsibility to themselves, the people they love and the planet on which they live to become independent seems to be a skill that is lacking in the frantic lifestyles of most of the children I encounter.

   Scheduled within an inch of their lives with sports, piano, ballet, endless hours in front of the televison, video games that make the hairs on the back of my neck shiver and dealing with family financial situations which demand the impossible from parents... most of these kids never make a decision. It's no wonder that when they are confronted with one they react poorly and with such limited problem solving skills. (God that sounds just like growing up in the seventies - minus the video games)

It seems I've gone off track a bit here but I'll try to drag it back. Kids who are given the chance to practice making decisons when they are young and allowed to live with their choices (without be bailed out or made excuses for) become more rational, involved, and independent and rarely need to be disciplined in any form - corporal or otherwise.

Ahhhhhh... worked (and works) for me anyway.
j


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

42 - I agree entirely. Learning to problem-solve effectively means taking responsibility for their actions and behaviour. It also involves making decisions and learning to live with the results of those decisions. Choice is a good thing (most of the time) but knowing when it is a child's choice is the responsibility of the parent.

Too often parents think they have to "protect" their children from the logical consequences of their own actions or make excuses for them.

Exceptionally good parents also teach their children to set goals and the steps necessary to achieve them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:45 PM

I think that we would all agree however that if a child picked up a loaded handgun and pointed it at it's own head with its finger on the trigger that we would rush to make sure that it never completed that lesson?


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:05 PM

Yes, of course. But if a parent was responsible in the first place, their would not be a loaded gun for the child to pick up. Duh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: LilyFestre
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM

Okay...I haven't read all the posts to this...just don't have the time. I would like to say that I agree with Ted.....I thought that those baby on board signs were great for paramedics. I've seen such signs on houses too so as to be able to locate a small child in case of fire.

As an insulin dependent diabetic, I have a sticker on the windshield of my car that is an alert for paramedics should I ever be in an accident or pass out from a sugar high/low. I also wear a medic-alert bracelet for the same reasons.

I don't mind the signs. If that's all we have to bitch about today, I'm thinking it's a pretty good day!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM

Thee's a big difference between stopping something happening by using whatever physical force is actually needed to do that, and getting into some kind of training-punishment ritual. Knocking a weapon out oif somebody's hands is not the same kind of thing as punishing that person for picking up the weapon, it's much more direct.


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: LilyFestre
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:06 PM

John,

    I am inclined to agree with Brucie to a point about looking to the parents when the child's actions are offensive. Our daughter, who is black in a predominately white community, came home today with a note from her teacher. It seems a boy in her school has been harrassing her. She has said nothing until today. This boy (11 years old) has been calling her the "N" word, a prostitute, whore and slut. Why? Because she is friends with a girl who won't go out with this boy. I can't help but wonder where such kind of language is learned.

    Don't get me wrong....I know every kid has a mind of their own and sometimes they come up with something out of left field....but I think a majority of the time, they present what they see in life.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Abdication of parental responsibility
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:34 AM

Michelle I am sad for your daughter, and hope she finds enough strength of character to rise above this mindless venom. As for where kids learn the bad language, sadly in many cases it is at home, or at school, from their peers. Nor do I absolve the Rap, so called, culture from blame in that department.
Give her a hug from Scotland.
John


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