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Subject: Singing lessons - please advise From: Rara Avis Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:13 AM Initial problem: I can't carry a tune and sound like a strangled cat. Neither can I read music. Goal: To have a decent singing voice. I define decent as having a pleasant sounding and in-tune voice in the bath; I'm not looking to be a professional singer. Solution: I signed up for singing lessons at the local music store. My new problem: I am learning (or not) 17th century Italian art songs and I am quite vexed about this. I realize that it can't be all folk music all the time. I am willing to compromise on music choices but having reached the half century mark, trying to learn Italian while trying to learn to read music is too much for my brain. I'm spending a lot of time on this and not making progress. I'm so frustrated that I'm ready to pack it in. Is this what I should expect from singing lessons? Mudcatters, please weigh in with your advice, opinions, and experiences. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: concertina ceol Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:21 AM Start with something where you know the tune very well already - for example "Sweet England" has the same tune to a song I sang at school called "When a knight won his spurs" So that was the first song I ever sang in public. Or sing something very familiar like "happy birthday to you" - it doesn't matter what it is you just need to match your voice to the tune. That means you can concentrate on one thing at a time, learning to sing and learning italian at the same time sounds pretty difficult. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Lady Nancy Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM Depending on where you are of course, there are often workshops for unaccompanied voices; there is one in Leeds later in May for example with Maggie Boyle. Contact Yorkshire Dales Workshops (www.ydw.org.uk I think). Even if you are the other side of the world they are great people who will do their best to help, and of course there'll be links.... Festivals have this type of workshop as well. Good luck LN |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: GUEST,KB Date: 30 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM I have been taking lessons for about 3 years now - and am loving every moment of it. It has made a huge difference to my voice and to how I sing folk songs. My teacher is fantastic, but does NOT teach folk songs. She teaches either via show songs or via classical (including italian) repertoire. The classical stuff uses the best possible technique - and I can then use what I want of those techniques as I see fit in the folk repertoire. SO - I think that the fact that you are doing Italian art songs is not in itself a cause for concern. What does seem to be a cause for concern is the fact that you feel you are getting nowhere. Learning to sing properly is a long process, and it can take a while for the quality to come across from exercises into the songs - how long have you been at it? It might be that you need to give it a bit longer. Have you spoken to your teacher about the way you are feeling? If not then I really think you should. Perhaps your teacher will be happy to change the repertoire to something you are more comfortable with. Some Italian songs do have english translations (though I think they lose a bit of their singability in translation). Your teacher may have a different view on your progress than you have, and might be able to point out improvements that you have not noticed yourself. If the teacher is any good then they would not continue to teach you if there is no improvement. Do you record your lessons? If not then perhaps you should try taping (or even better mini-discing) the lessons so that you can have something to compare over time. I have always found that improvements happen in the exercises first, and only gradually does the quality come over into normal singing. I guess the bottom line is - whether there is any improvement in your ability to sing the songs you like to sing. So perhaps you should be making periodic recordings of yourself singing your favourite songs at home & see if there is improvement over time. You could perhaps try a single lesson with a different teacher, to see whether someone else's teaching style would suit you better. My teacher freely admits that she suits some people and not others - so there's no disloyalty in shopping around a bit. One very good idea is to go by recommendation. Ask around & see whether other people have an opinion on your current teacher or any other local teachers. That's all I can think of for now. Best of luck - and don't give up! Kris |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:28 PM I could guess which Italian art songs you are singing! The Vaccai method is a classic for beginning singers. The songs begin with super-simple melodies and the words cover the basic Italian vowels, touted by classical singers as the purest in tone. With a good teacher, they can be very successful in achieving basic singing skills. But I agree, if you aren't feeling the benefits, you really should talk with your teacher! Good luck! Allison |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Don Firth Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:34 PM I can add very little to Kris's good advice. A chat with the teacher about what your goals are is certainly in order, and if that doesn't do the trick, try another teacher (interview them first, so they know what you want from them). On the other hand, looking back on my own lessons years ago, my first teacher (a former Metropolitan Opera soprano) also had me working on Italian art songs (lots of Monteverdi), and now, I actually wish I had worked on them a bit more diligently. I can see now what she was trying to get my voice to do, and I wish I had gone along with it. It would have benefitted me later on. I did talk to her about wanting to do folk songs and she was quite quite receptive. In fact, when the opportunity presented itself, she arranged for me to meet and talk with Richard Dyer-Bennet. Dyer-Bennet is not everybody's cup of tea, but I did learn a lot from him, and he was very encouraging. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Peter T. Date: 30 Mar 04 - 12:38 PM Hey Don, what did he give you by way of advice? I am interesting in Dyer-Bennet -- did he have a "theory" of singing folk songs? How did he pick, arrange the songs he sang, etc.? yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM Rara: Don't give up hope. I was the worst singer in the history of mankind. (There are hundreds of people that will verify that) I not only couldn't carry a tune, I couldn't find it. At a museum I couldn't match a note within normal human range. At folk clubs other musicians would make fun of me - on a chorus song a singer once said "we would like everyone to sing, except Larry. (said in jest but a little truth in it) As a mid life crisis I went for voice lessons 6 years ago. I was convinced that they would tell me I was hopeless and through me out. This would confirm that I could not sing. 6 years later I am still taking lessons. I exceeded my wildest dreams in the first 3 months. I will never be a good singer, but I have become a marginal singer. Given proper accompanyment, I can sing most songs in key. I sang on a cruise ship and got a standing ovation from 1,400 people. A folk club paid me $100 to conduct a singing workshop. A voice teacher asked me to sing at her 50th birthday party. All of these were rediculous dreams 6 years ago. I was lucky to have a good voice teacher recommended to me by another musician. My voice teacher lets me pick the song we work on each lesson. I write a lot of parodies, so quite often we work on my own material. The choice of music ranges from folk to broadway to pop songs. You never know what song you will use for the parody. Don't give up hope. Just find the right teacher. I have never done any Italian songs yet, I'll write a parody on anything. One never knows- do one. Hang in there and keep sining. If I can sing than anyone can sing. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Don Firth Date: 30 Mar 04 - 04:37 PM Peter T., this is probably more than anybody wants to know, but in attempting to answer your questions, in the book I'm working on, I describe my meeting with Richard Dyer-Bennet. I've included a chunk of it below. In the early Fifties I read on the back of a record jacket that Richard Dyer-Bennet was conducting a "School of Modern Minstrelsy" somewhere in the Colorado mountains, but other than that, I was unable to get any further information. Frustrating! My voice teacher, Edna Bianchi, taught in Seattle, but one day a week she taught at Western Washington College of Education (now, Western Washington University) in Bellingham (about 80 miles north of Seattle). During a lesson one day in 1957, she told me that on the following Monday, at 10:00 a.m., Dyer-Bennet would be singing at an assembly at the college, and that if I could get there and come backstage after his performance, she would try to get us together. So that's how I met him. He was pleased and impressed when Mrs. Bianchi told him that I had come up from Seattle to hear him, so he was predisposed to spend some time with me. The first thing I asked him was about the School of Modern Minstrelsy. He . . . [explained] that he had held the school for three summers in Aspen, Colorado in conjunction with the Aspen Summer Music Festival. Among those he had engaged to teach were his own teachers, Gertrude Wheeler Beckman and Rey de la Torre.We talked for quite a while, and much of what I learned from him came from a combination of this conversation and a subsequent one when I ran into him again a few years later, and things of his that I have read. He never referred to himself as a "folk singer." He considered himself as being in the tradition of the minstrels and troubadours of days gone by, the poet-musicians who earned their livelihood by traveled from place to place and entertaining. "They sang in town squares, taverns, and castles. Today's minstrels sing on street corners, in clubs and coffeehouses, and in concert halls. But in essence, it's the same profession." In another place, he goes on to say, "This distinction between folk singing and minstrelsy is more than a mere semantic quibble. If you are born and raised among rural people who know the songs, and if you can carry the tunes, and do, you are a folk singer, like it or not. If you are born and raised in the city, you may copy the intonation and accent of a true rural folk singer, but you will be, at best, an imitation of the real thing. What you can become is a minstrel." Lots of folkies cavil at this, getting tangled up in futile efforts to try to define "folk music" and "folk singer" (as long as one can sing folk songs, I've never been able to figure out what is so sacred about being a "folk singer"), but I personally think Dyer-Bennet had it pretty close to the truth. When people ask me what kind of music I perform, I refer to myself generically as a "folk singer," but I do so just to give them a rough idea, and to avoid lengthy explanations about minstrels and troubadours. I prefer to list myself simply as a "singer-guitarist," thereby leaving the field open. The vast majority of my repertoire consists of folk songs and ballads, but calling myself a "singer-guitarist" instead of a "folk singer" leaves me free to stick in a Johnny Cash song, a Broadway show tune, an Italian art song, or a song by Eric Idle if I feel so inclined. ("But that's not a folk song!" "No problem. I'm not a folk singer.") Dyer-Bennet sang mostly folk material, but he would toss in the occasional art song or something fairly weird from time to time. I don't sound like Richard Dyer-Bennet. He's a light tenor and I'm a fairly deep bass. He uses pretty strict classic technique on the guitar and so do I, but I also incorporated folk techniques in my playing, whereas he does not. Although I don't try to imitate him in style, I do try to emulate his careful attention to phrasing and clear diction. I learn a lot by just listening carefully to his records. One thing that Dyer-Bennet said that I really agree with: "The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect." As to how he picked and arranged his songs, I think he just picked songs the way anybody does. If it grabbed him by the ear and he thought he could do it well, he would learn it and add it to his repertoire. I'm not sure how he arranged the songs, but I imagine he used pencil and manuscript paper quite a bit when figuring out accompaniments. With a knowledge of theory, it's easy to work out the chords by ear, then refine things like bass lines or countermelodies on paper. You can then try them out for sound and revise where needed. I don't think he improvised much when he accompanied himself. He seemed to have it well worked out ahead of time. Here's a link to some info about him. Also, pop up to the top of the page and in the "Lyrics and Knowledge Search" box, do a forum search for threads about Dyer-Bennet. I've written quite a bit about him from time to time. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Alice Date: 31 Mar 04 - 12:13 AM Stay with the Italian Art Songs and your teacher. It sounds like you have found someone who can teach you how to sing. The techniques you will learn while studying with your teacher and the Italian repertoire will take you to your goal of "having a pleasant sounding and in-tune voice in the bath" because it will take your voice to the best sound it can be. Not only that, you will learn how to keep your voice sounding good for many years after others have blown out their vocal cords and can't rasp out a melody any more. Hang in there. It not only gets better, but you will be thankful you studied Italian Art Songs with a voice teacher when you are singing ANY folk song YOU want to sing, in tune, on pitch, without running out of breath, and bringing joy to other people when they hear you. You'll see. It will be worth it. alice |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Escamillo Date: 31 Mar 04 - 01:26 AM I second Kris' and Alice's and others advice. Keep on singing and talk to your teacher, frankly. But I would add an observation: IF you are so soon trying Italian classical songs of any century, then EITHER your teacher pays very poor attention to you, OR you don't sound as any strangled cat, and your voice and hearing sense do have real possibilities to make a decent, or a good singer of you. Don't tape your songs or exercises a capella: you will be rapidly disappointed. Tape your lessons with piano, then compare succesive lessons and hear the difference. And don't give up. Un abrazo, Andrés (the amateur singer who studied 4 years and could sing Mozart and folk, Wagner and spirituals, Verdi and canzonetta) |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: cloudstreet Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:51 AM Just a few ideas. Listen to everything. Sing. Don't worry too much about what others think It's your voice. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: M.Ted Date: 31 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM I don't think is is necessary to learn to sing Italian art songs in order to learn how to sing, especially if the "Italian" part of it is getting in the way of the singing part of it. It isn't always the best idea to simply going to the local music store and signing up for whoever happened to be offering lessons---for one thing, you don't know what you're getting, but you also have don't really know what is available, and how that connects with what you want. It's never to late to do your homework though, so you should check the obvious places--talk to choirmasters at local churches and schools, check with the music departments at local colleges, and, if there is professional musical theater in your community, check there, as well. Don't just ask for lessons, find out who is good, who is active, and who is interesting. It helps to check references and the teacher's resume, but remember that the person has got to connect with and care about you-- |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Rara Avis Date: 31 Mar 04 - 02:52 PM Thank you all for your encouragement and suggestions; you've been very helpful. I had a talk with the instructor last night in which I explained how frustrating trying to learn two foreign languages - music and Italian - had become. I told her that I would not be insulted with a very basic, elementary book on music. We found one and tomorrow night I'll be drawing little notes and clefs and all manner of symbols and I will learn what they are. While looking though the book racks I found a book of folk songs and don't I know almost every one! So the plan is to split the lesson into two sessions: reviewing all the little symbols and their mysterious meanings and then singing folk songs. Once I'm comfortable with that we can move on to the Italian art songs. So it's arrivederci Sebben Crudele and guid day tae Awa Whigs Awa. Now I can happily continue my lessons. Perhaps I'll even try out for the town musical next year. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 31 Mar 04 - 05:02 PM Wonderful, Rara! It sounds like you have a very understanding teacher. Good luck- and keep us posted! Allison |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: LadyJean Date: 31 Mar 04 - 11:31 PM I took voice lessons when I was a teenager, because my mother took voice lessons when she was a teenager and my grandmother took voice lessons when she was a teenager. I loved them. I sang the Vaccai, little songs designed to extend the singers range, and improve quality. The songs are very stupid. But even very stupid songs sound exciting in Italian. In theory the language is easier to sing in than English. I loved the Italian art songs I sang. My voice teacher and I tried a couple of folk songs, but I don't sing those, as much as belt them. Voice teachers discourage belting. My sister, a belter from way back, with a fine voice, applied as a voice major to Carnegie Mellon. They didn't take her. |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: gilly2 Date: 19 Mar 07 - 02:27 PM mmm all very interesting, I have read all your input and decided it does not matter. even though i sound like a strangled cat, i love singing, love music and it makes me happy, and happy is what i want to be, My dog is down to one paw over his ear,s now, so that is some improvement. Until i record my self i think i sound ok (ish) but then when i play it back i understand why my family run for cover, but i enjoy myself so much... do i care. Not at all |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Jim Lad Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:04 PM Pack it in, for now. Tell us where you are and one of us will point you in the direction of a teacher who has your interests at heart. There should be nothing difficult about having fun. No matter how understanding your teacher is now, your goal was to sing well and it was foreshadowed by the teachers own interests. Or... Hey! Sounds like a great teacher. Stick with it! Arrivederci! |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:14 PM Rara Avis, It's really important to find the best vocal teacher you can. If you hear a voice that you really like, ask where that person is getting their training. There is a difference between a vocal teacher and a vocal coach. The former is concerned with proper vocal technique (and there is such a thing). The coach is more about interpretation. It is really important to find the right person. A singing professional should be able to help you do this. Sometimes someone in musical theater who has a consistent strong voice is knowledgeable. What a good vocal teacher especially teaches you is how to save your voice. If you are feeling any strain or discomfort vocally, you are not being taught correctly. Frank Hamilton |
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Subject: RE: Singing lessons - please advise From: Big Mick Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:48 PM Listen to stringsinger/Frank Hamilton. He knows what he is talking about. |
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