Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret

Subject: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:04 AM

I only wish this were an April Fools Day hoax.

Has anyone seen the new Victoria's Secret commercial with Bob Dylan?

On first glance, this is wrong on so many levels, but after viewing it I really admire Bob Dylan.   I only hope that when I reach Dylan's age someone approaches me to ask if I would like to be paid to fly to Venice and do a commercial with several supermodels.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:24 AM

Does he know the streets are flooded?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Huh? You gotta be kidding! :-) This is on TV, is it?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

"All I really wanta dooooo, is baby, be friends with yooooo"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

I ain't looking to dance yer dance
Steal yer bra or underpants
Or denude you, or intrude you
Or feed pigeons in the nude,
All I really wanna dooooo
Is baby, make ads with you....


A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

we idea men have our uses...*grin*

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 01:03 PM

It's airing in the US now... doubt we'll get it in the UK though. Victoria's Secret have also put out a special 9-track compilation of Bob Dylan songs which they're selling in their stores - nothing too exciting on there except for a 'remix' of Lovesick (which is the version used on the Dylan advert)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

Yes Little Hawk, the ads started running this week. It is almost as strange as "Masked and Anonymous".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:07 PM

"Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you"

"It's never been my duty to remake the world at large,
Nor is it my intention to sound a battle charge"

"I'd have paid off the traitor and killed him much later
But that's just the way that I am."

""Would ya please not stare at me like that," he said,
"It's just my foolish pride,
But sometimes a man must be alone
And this is no place to hide"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:21 PM

Bleahhhhh.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Big Tim
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

Bob will get three things from the advert.
1.Money.                                                    2.Personal attention (ego massage).                                 3.Promotion of his back catalogue.

Despite what some people believe, Bob Dylan is in fact a human being, and will therefore derive satisfaction from this.

What hypocrite can blame him?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

So it's official ... Bob Dylan is pants.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM

It seems that he filmed two adverts for them while he was in Venice - or, at least, there are two versions of the same advert maybe. Here's an mpeg of one them (2MB):
http://www.songe.info/dvd/secret2.MPG

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM

Hell, those Victoria's Secret women can be very persuasive. I figure that's what did it. He's human, after all. :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:34 PM

Please tell me he's wearing clothes.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

oh so that was what that was on the TV last night...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

Bob Dylan in a thong... not a pretty picture

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:19 PM

Noooooooooo...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

Do you think he'll write about her secret in a song? Ya know, one of those things where ya play it backwards and ya get messages from Victoria? Cool.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM

See for yourself.

I think I know how he feels.


A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:42 PM

"Too much of nothing can make a man feel ill at ease..."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Stephen
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:57 PM

Or, for the longer edit of the ad... go here and click on the 'play video' link near the bottom of the page.

http://www2.victoriassecret.com/

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM

Was Dylan the one with the beard?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:10 PM

Brucie, I'm not going to touch that line!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

lmao--Good one, Ron.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

"She moves just like a woman..."

Art

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:12 PM

"No, no, no, it ain't he babe . . .".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM

Well---itis April Fool's Day---so perhaps now we can believe that Dylan is the personification of a commercial "old" fool.   At least not on the way to the bank.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:43 PM

The devil made him do it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 06:49 PM

Naw. He ain't wearin' a dress, I don't think.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM

This is NOT an April Fools day prank Bill!   Dylan doesn't need the money, he is just having a great time.

I'm jealous.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

I just watched the commercial again, and this time I paid attention to Dylan. Maybe it is the scenary or the company he is keeping, but he really looks good in this commercial. They cleaned him up good!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:33 PM

Yeah, that's the way I see it too. He's having a great time. What a laugh to see Bob advertising for Victoria's Secret!

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Aside from the laugh factor which is purely based on the idea, the actual commercial is very well done.

I'm glad he turned down the offer from Geritol!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 04 - 09:30 PM

Victoria's Secret always does their stuff well.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Jeanie
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:48 AM

Ah, I see what's happening here! "Victoria's Secret" must be the U.S. equivalent of "Joanna Southcott's Box" here in England. The prophetic secrets contained in Joanna Southcott's box can be revealed only in the collective presence of 24 Bishops of the Church of England. (Not happened yet, several centuries later). In a similar way, Victoria's Secrets will only be revealed in the presence of 24 singer-songwriters. Dylan is No. 1 on the list. Who's next, I wonder ?

(Somehow, I think the people of Britain have drawn the short straw, here.)

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Big Tim
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:28 AM

He's also putting out his own wine. Knocked Out Loaded?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:05 AM

A great sardonic leer he's got there. Those links crashed Internet Explorer for some reason, so I tried Mozilla and that worked fine. As Amos said, "I think I know how he feels".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JJ
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:11 AM

Ron, the commercial can't POSSIBLY be as weird as "Masked and Anonymous!"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM

My 19 yr old daughter said she found it totally creepy in pedophile pervert sort of way.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM

Guest - I think your daughter needs to get out more if she is reading "pedophile pervert" in that commercial. That is a real stretch to make that connection.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

No, stupid sell-out misogynist jerk is more like it. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:28 PM

Granted, the young lady is a fair bit younger than Bob, but if she wasn't she wouldn't be a young lady at all.

I suppose they could do a Calender Girl version. Not a bad idea maybe. But I imagine not in line with the company's sales policy.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 12:29 PM

I wonder if he's bringing it all back home? This is the freewheelin' bob dylan, another side of bob dylan. William Shatner probably turned the role down.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

I'm in complete agreement with Peter's 02 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM post.

Actually, the "pedophile perv" remark of my daughter's was simply a female teen using the language of her peers to describe what females in my generation would have described as "the dirty old man".

Same thing. I agree with her assessment pretty much. I saw the commercial, and was revulsed in the same way she was. We both saw the commercial while watching tv together, and neither of us had any knowledge of it prior to seeing it. We weren't reacting to Dylan per se, but to the image of an old man leering at a young female "angel". Today's female teens don't make many distinctions between older male/young female pornography and pedophilia.

Older men may not like the fact that today's female teens view the world that way, but that is the way most of them see it.

Here is an excerpt from an article in yesterday's Minneapolis Star Tribune, which reflects the girls' realities (I quote from it and provide the link, because the Star Tribune links only last about 48-72 hours):

http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/4698537.html


"Last update: March 31, 2004 at 11:24 PM
Workplace often ugly for young women
H.J. Cummins, Star Tribune
April 1, 2004HARASS0401
At 16, Erin Ceynar worked the counter at a fast food restaurant in a small Minnesota town. Some of the guys at this, her first job, enjoyed sharing the details of their girlfriends' sexual favors. Her boss drank his coffee from a mug shaped like a woman's breast.

"I felt creeped out, violated in a way I couldn't even have described at the time," said Ceynar, now 30 and a manager at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. "But I didn't say anything. I was thinking of sexual harassment like rape scenes in movies, where people were hiding in the bushes. I knew these people. I even liked them. So, how could I think something was wrong about them?"

It was an ugly introduction to life as a working woman, but it's the one that greets one in three young Minnesota women in their earliest jobs, according to a new study out of the University of Minnesota. Experts call it a rare look at sexual harassment of young workers -- amid research that so far has concentrated on adults at work or young people in school."

My daughter said the Dylan Victoria's Secret commercial "creeped her out in a Dru Sjodin sort of way".

Who is Dru Sjodin? Go here:

Dru Sjodin story of coed abducted leaving her Victoria's Secret job

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 01:55 PM

Let's not confuse two separate issues Guest.   What that article points to is a huge problem and should not be tolerated. No person should have to work in any condition like the one described. Sexual harrassement is something that we cannot accept. It must be fought.

However, to compare that to the Dylan commercial seems odd. The fact that Dylan is an older man does not make him a "dirty old man". You interpret his look as a "leer", but I don't think there was a single scene where he actually looked directly at the woman. This was not a "girl" but an adult.   There was nothing inappropriate in either actors actions.

There is a difference, and unfortunately not every male sees it, between appropriate conduct and unwanted advances.   There is no reason to hide from sexuality and admiring the looks of another is not wrong. The problem becomes when looks and lust become the sole intent, and it is hard to draw that type of inference from the commercial that I viewed.

And an aside to PeterT - Dylan NEVER "sold out". He was always himself, and that is the message.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

I think older men are going to interpret the commercial quite differently from young women who often don't make any distinctions whatsoever between workplace sexual harassment, and sexual harassment in general. Young women also report a pretty high incidence of sexual harassment by older males while in junior and senior high, as well harassment by male teens.

Teen sexual harassment in the schools is a phenomenon closely associated with bullying, BTW.

I don't think a young woman like my daughter, living, working in a job with high public visibility, and going to college, makes the same distinctions older men do about these things. Why? It should be obvious. Older men rarely (if ever, I've never heard of a single actual incident of over-40 men being sexually harassed, despite the Michael Douglas factor) are victims of sexual assault, abduction by a sexual predator, or workplace sexual harassement. And it goes without saying, that in academic settings, it would be pretty rare to see an over-40 male in a position of being victimized, as they are the ones who usually hold the positions of power over younger women.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

Shatner would have been marvelous for a Victoria's Secret ad, and would certainly not have turned it down. He is much less ambivalent about females than Bob Dylan, and would definitely have looked right at the model with rapt attention and an appreciative smirk, no doubt. I am frankly amazed that Victoria's Secret did not realize this and insist on having Shatner. Still, getting Bob in the ad was a notable coup for them, of course.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

I agree with everything you say guest, but I just don't see the connection to the Bob Dylan commercial. I guess my interpretation comes with age.

It sounds like your daughter has suffered from some sort of harrassement, and if that is the case I am truly sorry. I do know women who have suffered the same injustice and it can not be tolerated.

Perhaps it is because I a male, or perhaps there is something with the geographic and cultural differences of our situation, but I also know that the situation that you describe is not necessarily the "norm" everywhere.   People can celebrate beauty and sexuality without infringing on others.   I do not consider the Dylan commercial to be "pornography", nor do I think that the woman is being vicitimized.   While I do respect the opinion that you share with your daughter, I do think there has to be a line drawn on what is appropriate and what is inappropriate.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:27 PM

I think growing that creepy Vincent Price mustache went to his head, and he decided to be a creep.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

The ad does call into question just who the company is target mareketing to with the ad. Does anyone here believe that the ad for women's lingerie is actually directed towards young women of the age of the model? Or is it directed at older men who (like a lot of the men here, if this thread is anything to go by) enjoy looking at the Victoria's Secret model?

Lest we forget, there is some controversy about Victoria's Secret advertising and their prime time "special" that has aired. Here is a link to an online political forum discussion about it:

America's Debate forum

And then there is the recent workplace sexual harassment court case, involving charges against a Hartford CT police chief and his deputy, which alleges that the chief fired a female officer for union activities. The fired female officer also alleges, among other things, overhearing the male chiefs and officers making lewd remarks, and beinf forced to "tolerate" pornographic material displayed in the workplace. The suit also alleges the deputy chief handed the female officer a Victoria's Secret catalog, and told her to pick something out.

The ad portrays an old, powerful male (Bob Dylan) getting his jollies leering at the young, scantily clad, innocent girl (ie the angel). That sort of says it all, IMO.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

You're just jealous, Peter, because your own attempts to grow a Vincent Price mustache failed miserably... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

The ad is targeting older men, in an attempt to get them to buy Victoria's Secret lingerie for women they know.

The whole Victoria's Secret thing is notoriously provocative and engenders a lot of anger from women of all ages.

From all women? Absolutely not. Women of all ages shop at and buy from the Victoria's Secret catalog.

Does the fact that many women buy Victoria's Secret Products mean Victoria's Secret's advertising doesn't make many women who don't buy their products, feel that Victoria's Secret is sexually exploitative and demeaning to them as women?

No.

Regardless of where you come down on the Dylan ad being provocative, disgusting, annoying, or whatever, does anyone here really believe the woman in the ad ISN'T intended to be a sex toy for the old man?

The old men commenting upon the ad in this thread are certainly suggesting through innuendo, that she is.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

I want the lingerie for penguins.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:53 PM

Like, is it a hot flash or news that ads target people? Do you see any difference between this ad and an ad that was aired years ago in which a car came to a stop in the desert and about a half dozen scantily clad young ladies appeared from lord knows where and proceeded to drape themselves on the hood of the car?

Do you really think that this ad will make one damn bit of difference to the crap that goes on in the world? Really?

We have had professional sports people advertising shoes made by enslaved children in SouthEast Asia. Is this any more lewd or disgusting than that? We use tax money to have farmers burn wheat crops rather than get that 'surplus' food to where people can eat it. Millions starve to death every year on this planet, and the moral f#ckin' majority is worried about some ad that don't amount to a hill of beans.

If you want to change the ad or its airing, write a letter to the Victoria's Secret company and let them know you disagree, and why. Refuse to buy their products. Act, don't posture.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:55 PM

Guest2, this is a difficult subject for anyone to find middle ground. I truly understand your points and I do agree that too many commercials and pop culture lean toward promoting sexuality at the cost of respect for dignity and basic rights.

At the same time, I do not feel that I should feel guilty for appreciating the beauty of another human form. While the instances that you mention do describe an unfortunate attitude in society, I don't believe that most men fall into that catagory. Looking at a Victoria's Secret catalog does not make a person a "pedophile". After watching the commercial, I am not going to make lewd remarks to my female coworkers. Men that have those sort of "issues" are going to have those problems regardless of what society throws at them. People learn respect, or disrespect, for the opposite sex much earlier AND at home.

While men (myself included) will glance at a Victoria's Secret catalog, we are not going to go out and buy the product. Any company that markets themselves to people that aren't going to do business with them are not long for the market.

I completely disagree with your description of Bob Dylan as "leering" and "getting his jollies". While you may interpret him as a "powerful male", I think there are others that would disagree. I have seen Dylan in concert many times over the years, and this is bascially his normal look.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 02:58 PM

Feeling a little nervous under cross-examination, eh brucie?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:00 PM

Asshole, I don't even know what Victoria's Secret is. I gather it's a fashion company of some sort. F#ck you, too.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

You sure as shit sound PC there, Ron. I'm not buying it in light of your previous remarks, though. You're leering too.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM

"The ad portrays an old, powerful male (Bob Dylan) getting his jollies leering at the young, scantily clad, innocent girl (ie the angel)."

Funny, dressed in black with that mustache and goatee I say Dylan's character was a very specific fallen angel. The devil really did make him do it. The kick for the ad is that hee doesn't want to be tempted by what he sees that's good.

(PS, by this interpretation, the female angel character wouldn't have to be young at all. Young looking, perhaps, but immortal after all.)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

GUEST: Me thinks thou doth protest too much. I bet you watch TV, buy magazines, are influenced by ads. You seem to know what Victoria's Secret is. Why do you know this, and why do you lurk in dark corners moralizing? Why do you not have the guts to sign your name? You are likely who the ad is aimed at. And on you, it would work.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

Oooh, a little touchy there, aren't we fellas?

Why do I find it so hard to believe brucie doesn't know what Victoria's Secret is, yet he was the second poster to the thread, and seems to be relishing the banter among the boys throughout the thread, considering his number and the nature of his posts to it, hmmmm?

So some of you fellas don't like the fact that someone associated a Bob Dylan commercial for ladies scanty lingerie with dirty old men and leering perverts?

I think that is YOUR problem, boys, not mine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

Dylan comes off as a dirty old pervert in this ad. It really is that simple. It is creepy as hell.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:12 PM

You're missing the point. Penguin Lust is a much more serious problem than this ad, which will soon be forgotten. Meanwhile, Penguin Lust stalks the streets of our nation unchecked! Go to the BS section (below) now, and learn the awful truth!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM

GUEST: You are a piece of shit. I haven't seen the ad, mostly because I don't watch ads or television. You are cheap, but anonymous people are often like that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Guess I nailed you for what you are brucie, considering the vehemence of your responses to me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Guest, thank you so much! Based on the definition of "leer", I love to LEER!   I make no apologies for looking and enjoying a beautiful woman. That does not mean I make inappropriate and unwanted comments to women OR men. I can also see a distinction between pornography and art, not that I would try to push my values on others. I respect my marriage, protect my children, and pay my taxes. I guess I am "PC". If I knew who you were, I suppose I could pay you some compliments as well.

from Merriam-Webster:   
Leer - to cast a sidelong glance; especially : to give a leer

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Victoria
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

Oooo, guest, you are a little touchy aren't you? Pervert.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:22 PM

Whatever. Your "I'm a fine, upstanding male role model" schtick doesn't fool me Ron. You are still an old guy getting your jollies looking at the nearly naked girl gyrating around in a ladies lingerie commercial, just like the washed up, dirty old perv rock star.

The fact that you like the dirty old perv rock star just makes you feel cleaner about it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Dylan turned me on.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:26 PM

I am sick. I need help.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

Will the real GUEST please stand up?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

GUESTED AGAIN!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

I guess I am an old guy at 46. Still, it is much better than being an 18 year old troll. At least the other Guest (2) made some legitimate comments.

I can see that what was a discussion has turned into something else. Probably best to end it since your school bell is probably about to ring. Good luck with your homework this weekend.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

GUEST: You nailed yourself for what YOU are.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Britney
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

I'm like, whatever. He's some famous singer, right? Victoria's Secret stuff is totally awesome!!! I would sooo love to model for them! I'm like, chill out, GUEST. You need it bad, that's what I'm guessing. Awwww...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:36 PM

Bob Dylan looks for commercial success as Secret partner
By CLIFFORD PUGH
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

The secret is out.

Scantily clad models in a new television ad for Victoria's Secret are prancing around the palazzo Palazzo in Venice with an unlikely companion: Bob Dylan.
The music legend, whose songs fueled the 1960s counterculture, even sports dark facial hair that looks like a bad dye job in the ad, which first aired on during American Idol Tuesday night.

It may seem a bit disheartening to longtime Dylan fans -- the New York Post dubbed the bizarre pairing the "sellout sell-out of the week" -- but the singer apparently had his reasons for appearing in the ad.

"We asked him to be in the commercials and he said yes, he would gladly go off to Venice with the supermodels," the underwear firm's CEO, Grace Nichols, recently told students at Colorado State University.

The Dylan connection was established last year when Victoria's Secret creative director Ed Razek sifted through the music of more than 50 singers, from Tom Waits to Luciano Pavarotti, hunting for a tune for an ad featuring a lingerie-clad model with angel wings.

"We put everything against the track, and nothing worked like Dylan," Razek recalled.

The song, a remixed version of Love Sick from Dylan's 1997 album Time Out of Mind, "captures everything relationships are about," Razek said.

For the ad's sequel, which will air for the next three weeks, the company used the same song -- and snagged Dylan to appear on-screen for the first time in a commercial. A nine-track CD of Dylan songs is available at Victoria's Secret stores for $10.

The odd combination opens the door to all sorts of grizzled rock star/product pairings. Will we see Aerosmith's Steven Tyler for L'Oréal hair-care products in the future? Or maybe Neil Young for Maybelline?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

I like the young girls, I can't stand Dylan. S and M is my thing.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:42 PM

This one is for brucie, since he doesn't know what Victoria's Secret is:

Victoria's Secret chief underscores growth
Company to enlarge stores, Nichols tells CSU students

By Janet Forgrieve, Rocky Mountain News
March 4, 2004

FORT COLLINS - Colorado State University students got to hear the serious side of selling frilly things.

Grace Nichols, president and chief executive officer of Victoria's Secret Stores since 1991, detailed the business of the famous lingerie retailer Wednesday as the keynote speaker for the school's Business Day.


"Behind the glamour, the supermodels and the public face, there is a business structure supporting all that," she said.

The brand's story begins 22 years ago, when Les Wexner wandered into a European-style lingerie boutique on a trip to San Francisco. Wexner, chairman and CEO of Limited Brands Inc., saw the potential to develop the concept into a large national chain, Nichols said. Soon after, Limited paid $1 million for the company.

Today, as the largest of Limited's brands, Victoria's Secret operates 920 U.S. stores and generated $3.5 billion in sales in 2002, including about $1 billion from online and catalog sales.

The picture was quite different in 1986, when Nichols joined the company as vice president and general merchandise manager.

"There were 100 stores, $100 million in sales, and the stores didn't make any money," she said.

Heavy discounting was common, she said, with the average bra selling at $12.

That began to change in 1993 with the first national advertising campaign, which included TV commercials and print ads. Since then, the company has grown to command a much bigger chunk of the $12 billion U.S. lingerie market.

Nichols showed the audience a clip of commercials, as well as a reel from all the free news and talk-show coverage of the company's world-famous fashion show.

The combination of advertising and public relations campaigns around the fashion shows spurred rapid growth in the 1990s, she said, and also allowed the company to stop heavy discounting.

Today, the average bra in Victoria's Secret sells for between $35 and $50, she said, and sales happen only twice a year, in January and June, to clear out seasonal items.

According to the company's annual report, filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, Victoria's Secret saw sales at stores open more than a year climb by 6 percent in 2002.

The company expects to see bigger jumps in the coming years, as it works on increasing the size of its stores in existing markets, Nichols said. More stores, which now average about 5,000 square feet or so, will take on the look of the 21,000-square- foot flagship Manhattan store.

In markets where the renovation and expansion have been done and customers have more to choose from, she said, sales have jumped by almost 50 percent.

Victoria's Secret expects future growth to come from its continued focus on core items - bras and panties - as well as its sub-brands, including its best- selling "Body by Victoria" line, which brings in $500 million in annual sales.

This year, the company launched a new sub-brand, called Pink! and aimed at 18- to 24-year-old women, slightly younger than the company's typical customers.

And Victoria's Secret plans another ad blitz beginning this month. The latest commercials will feature not only a song but a guest appearance by music legend Bob Dylan.

"We asked him to be in the commercials and he said yes, he would gladly go off to Venice with the supermodels," she said.



By the numbers

920: Stores in the United States

$3.5 billion: Sales in 2002, including $1 billion in catalog sales

$12: Average price of a bra in 1986. Today's price is between $35 and $50.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

My cookie was destroyed when my computer was overhauled, and I haven't been interested enough to get a new one. I do agree that there are more than one GUEST here. I believe that Dylan's supposed to represent a dark presence that contrasts with the "white angel" and his character isn't learing, although I understand that that could be the ultimate attraction of the commercial to many people.

Yes, I know what Victoria's Secret is and am not ashamed of understanding that women wear underwear nor am I particularly titlated by it when I see it. I have even spent the obligatory boring hours waiting in a VS store while my wife was trying things on. She buys there because they carry bras that fit her, not because of any input I have.

It's only underwear, after all. The rest is what you let be in your head.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Prissy Penguin
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:43 PM

This stuff doesn't shock me in the least. I've seen worse.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:44 PM

GUEST: You have some serious issues. Who you are may be one of them. Your obsession with ads is another. Good luck finding a doctor. You need one.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Thank you for telling me about the Victoria's Secret empire. I can't ever see myself shopping there. I don't know which GUEST posted the info, but thanks. If you are the GUEST who had a few things to say to me, thanks and go f#ck yourself. You certainly care more about VS than I ever will.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

Even though I do not have a problem with the commercial, I do see something odd at work here.   Why are there over 80 postings about Dylan and underwear when another thread about Dylan and what is probably going to be considered a masterpiece of a recording (Live 1964) has only 9 comments at this time?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:52 PM

Your guest is as good as mine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Neil to Bob
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:57 PM

THIS NOTE'S FOR YOU

Don't want no cash
Don't need no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Pepsi
Ain't singin' for Coke
I don't sing for nobody
Makes me look like a joke
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Miller
Don't sing for Bud
I won't sing for politicians
Ain't singin' for Spuds
This note's for you.

Don't need no cash
Don't want no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

I've got the real thing
I got the real thing, baby
I got the real thing
Yeah, alright.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 03:59 PM

It isnt fair that people use my name like this.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

ITS NOT FAIR.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM

Lets play trolling for GUESTS.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:11 PM

OK, let's play.

If Dylan weren't in the ad I doubt I would have noticed it. Dylan with his hair dyed and slicked back that way, well, who wouldn't wonder what was up?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM

How do I know it is Dylan in the ad? Just ask one of me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

It is Dylan stupid.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

Loose your cookie, right bad guest?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM

Where is Stephen King when he is needED!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM

Ruuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnn. There coming, ruuuuuuNNNNNNN.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,02 Apr 04 - 08:45 AM
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:19 PM

Sure, bad brucie.

But instead of carrying on like this though, why don't you just grow up and stop doing this idiotic "I'll pretend to be an obnoxious, anon guest" every time you put your foot in your mouth in threads we disagree in a thread? This behavior of yours brucie, is really getting tiresome.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Same to you, S

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

hithead

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:25 PM

THREAD HACK AND EXTRANEOUS GDUESTS ALERT!!!

Btw, does anyone know why Dylan agreed to do the ad?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

"Btw, does anyone know why Dylan agreed to do the ad?"

Common suggestions:

Money
Wanting to be hip
Attractive, scantily clad women on the set
Money

Wait, I'm good GUEST and I lost my cookie. What are you trying to say, brucie?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM

Does anyone know why Dylan decided to do anything?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:33 PM

GUEST: Get your cookie and repost.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:33 PM

Why do we need to know why he did it?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

The rich man . . . is always sold to the institution which makes him rich. Absolutely speaking, the more money, the less virtue.

Henry David Thoreau

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

Thoreau never did get those royalties, did he?

brucie, naw, still not that interested even if I did post a couple of times defending Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Define Good
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:43 PM

Love,

Brother Bob

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:43 PM

Because Thoreau said it, it must be true????

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:47 PM

What Dylan's doing may or may not be right, but at least everyone know who he is. I don't feel I've contributed to the downfall of western civilization because I don't use my money to purchase from VS. Nor have I seen the ad--the blue clicky gave me a chopped up version of it. I would suggest, again, that people who disagree with the subliminal or in-yer-face stuff simply write the company and tell it they are losing a customer. To guote one of the subjects of this thread, "Money doesn't speak, it swears." What should be of greater concern is the dollar figure one of the guests (3:42 pm) quoted above. Three and a half billion dollars is lots of money. So, maybe all the perverts aren't dirty old men. Got to be some gals out there wearing the stuff. Well, them and penguins, huh?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Define Good
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

Because he is Dylan, he can't be a sell out????

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

Sure he can, but who said he shouldn't?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:55 PM

Who said this was a sellout, anyway?

But brucie, everyone knows you've contributed to the downfall of civilization in so many ways even if we have to let you off the hook for this one. :D

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

True. It's the penguins.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:02 PM

Right, Dylan selling ladies knickers isn't selling out.

And so what if it is? I'm sure he needs the money to buy his Viagra.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:03 PM

Can't really imagine Joan Baez doing a similar ad for some firm that sells bloke's underpants...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:04 PM

Define a sellout.   The fact that you are on a computer and not using your name shows that you too have sold out. You aren't you!!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:06 PM

1)Being a older man who still appreciates younger beauty does not make me, OR Dylan, a 'pervert'. (I can appreciate pretty younger women...I don't expect them to jump in my lap. Who should I look at-Bella Abzug?)
2)Millions of young girls don't CARE- they like being admired and like it when they can make $$$$ BEING admired.
3) this thread started as fun...it has become another stupid debate about who offended who first.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

"Can't really imagine Joan Baez doing a similar ad for some firm that sells bloke's underpants..."

Hard to say. You haven't been to Chippendale's on senior's night, I take it.

Ron, I am too me. He's not him! Or her. Guess it is confusing.

Looks like Dylan's not the only one selling out and I bet brucie's at the bottom (no pun intended) of it.

Selling Out?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM

Why is someone signing Strick's ":D" to the Good Guest posts?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

"Define a sellout."

Well, Dylan for starters.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:24 PM

:D is internet smilie for this

Everyone knows that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:24 PM

Is that allowed? To use someone else's 'signature' like that? Curious. Strick ofetn signs his posts with that :D. Good Guest who posted at 4:55 did that. What gives?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:25 PM

OK. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,One GUEST or another
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:26 PM

Not to post anything offensive to you, of course.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:26 PM

Guess everyone didn't know that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Jolly Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:27 PM

Don't worry Good Guest. brucie is just feeling sheepish over his sophmoric behavior logging in as Guest Victoria, Guest Brittany, et al so he wants some company from another member posting anonymously in hopes of it making him look less like an idiot.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:28 PM

Strick always sign his/her name, so I wondered. Now I know.:D

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:31 PM

sophOmoric you twit.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:36 PM

I've cancelled dinner this Sunday. I was going to have guests but now I've changed my mind.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:40 PM

Signed in as Shania Twain or Sheryl Crow, maybe... Oh, you were talking about brucie, not me.

You say sophomoric like it's a bad thing. Why not lighten the mood?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM

The wines they are a-changin': bottled Bob to sell for £35

John Hooper in Rome
Tuesday March 30, 2004
The Guardian

Bob Dylan is a man of many aspects: poet, protester and born-again Christian. Now, it seems, the bard has turned to the bottle.
The eternal bohemian has developed an interest in upmarket Italian wine, with the result that, later this year, a classy blend of Montepulciano and Merlot will reach the shelves in a bottle signed by the singer and bearing the name of his 1974 album Planet Waves.

"I tried to make a wine that reflects both sides of his character," said Antonio Terni, a lifelong Dylan fan who owns a vineyard near Ancona. "Angular, difficult and unpredictable like Montepulciano, yet generous and friendly like Merlot."

On the label is a suitably inscrutable disquisition on causes and effects which ends with the words: "What pushed two guys from opposite corners of the world to put their names on a bottle of Italian red wine? Destiny? Fate? Coincidence? Planet Waves."

Their joint venture began in November when Mr Terni, who spends his holidays going to wherever Dylan is performing, met his drummer at a party in Milan. He took advantage of the meeting to send his idol a bottle of a wine he had produced called "Visions of J", after the Dylan song Visions of Johanna.

"I got back an email from his manager asking if I could do something to help him become more involved in wine," Mr Terni said. The singer has been sent samples of the new wine to approve. His only return would seem to be some free bottles.

The wine, a 2002 vintage, will retail at around £35. This may help to explain a characteristically abstruse part of Dylan's All Along the Watchtower: "Businessmen, they drink my wine, ploughmen dig my earth, None of them along the line know what any of it is worth."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM

Remote Control Weblog
San Diego Union-Tribune television critic Robert Laurence's observations on television

March 31, 2004
Bob Dylan and lingerie

There weren't any boots of Spanish leather, nor a leopard skin pill box hat, but that was Bob Dylan in a TV commercial for Victoria's Secret which ran Tuesday night during "American Idol."

And it wasn't a pretty sight.

Yes, there was Dylan's craggy visage right there in the middle of the clothes line saga, right with Victoria's young, leggy models.

Bad idea, Bob.

he looks like a gentleman of some years leering through a hole in the wall at the babes in their dressing room.

But this isn't all.

Bob's also licensed the title of his "Planet Waves" album as the name of an Italian wine.

Do you think he needs the money?

Posted by Robert Laurence at March 31, 2004 01:49 PM |

I know sex is supposed to sell. But sex with Bob Dylan? EEUUGH!

Posted by: ziza at April 2, 2004 06:08 AM

I think the add is a bit disturbing, I get the dirty old man vibe from it also. Jacob Dylan would have made it a good commercial. Not Grandpa Dylan!

Posted by: Dee at April 2, 2004 08:18 AM
Post a comment

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

Guest Brittany wasn't me, nor was Victoria

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

How can you say the mood isn't light? Didn't you like the Viagara joke as a response to why Dylan made the ladies undies commerical with the angels?

Now I'm trying to envision the New Old Bob obituaries, wherein he is listed as singer (sic), songwriter, actor (ahem), and spokesman for Italian wine and ladies lingerie.

"Icon of Italian Wine, Scantily Clad Women, and Protest Songs Departs Planet Waves"?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:12 PM

Well, that makes it Miller time.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:24 PM

hey, whacko guest/troll/troublemaker

if you want to get stuck into dylan, okay, hes an international star. leave brucie alone, he's my star.

"We have had professional sports people advertising shoes made by enslaved children in SouthEast Asia. Is this any more lewd or disgusting than that? We use tax money to have farmers burn wheat crops rather than get that 'surplus' food to where people can eat it. Millions starve to death every year on this planet, and the moral f#ckin' majority is worried about some ad that don't amount to a hill of beans."

wise words, bruce.

and interesting, what this guest is saying is that older men are dirty pedophiles who lust after young women, and that by happening to be in a room when a Victoria's secret ad comes on, they are all digusting drooling animals.

its a low blow to get stuck into someone's age. its a low blow to get stuck into someones sexuality. and to combine those into the one hit is even lower. GUEST, you're projecting a lot of negative thoughts onto men, mature aged man, here. men over fifty, women over fifty, we have a whole range of feelings, emotions and experiences. leave us, GUEST.

i think its just a matter of time before a mudcatter gets tageted by some troll, ive realised this. strangely something a bit like this happened to me here in the cat, last week. i was lucky in that no negative comments appeared in a public forum.

but these comments here are nasty.

i went to jeff (pene azul) who tracked down the evil dude. GUEST, while youre anonymous in the post, you still leave a computer trail.

hey bruce, come around to my place and I'll cook you a meal. you can bring your cats and penguin. anytime.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,BH
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

I was despondent when Dylan sold the rights to "Tangled Up in Blue". What kept rumbling through my thoughts was "Aint it hard when you discover that/He really wasn't where it's at/After he took from you everything/He could steal.."

I didn't think he could sink much lower than where he has gone in the last decade or so. But Victoria's Secret? Jesus. Is Dylan so isolated and surrounded with sycophants that there is no one to tell him that the commercial not only makes him look creepy, but that commercial endorsements always end up making the artist look petty, greedy, and stupid?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:39 PM

and furthermore..

young, men don't appeal to me. they're like skinless chickens, all smooth and uninteresting. I like people with character, people who've lived a life, who've developed their potential, people with humour, and with strong feelings.

no amount of Calvin Klein body spray or designer clothes can replace that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Jolly Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:39 PM

So freda, I take it you are both a brucie and a fan of The Bob?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 06:43 PM

yes, a big fan of both.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Jolly Good Guest
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM

So it's fine for the fellas to look at acres and acres of airbrushed, smooth, wrinklefree skin, but not a mature woman, right?

So boys (that includes you freda), why do you suppose it is that Dylan didn't make a commercial selling "Just Her Size" undies with 60 year old nearly nude women?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM

Because, 60 year old nude women appeal to 60 year old nude men.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Al Aronowitz, reborn
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

Cool of you to suggest that, Jolly Good. I'll mention it to Bob and we'll see if he goes for the idea. You may recall that he had an old, notably unattractive, fully clothed cleaning lady featured at length in the video of the song "Sweetheart Like You" (1985 - Empire Burlesque album). It wasn't well received by an uncomprehending public, because it did NOT feature a young, attractive woman. Apparently Bob can do no right when it comes to this matter...according to certain people.

Old, wrinkly men do not get a good reception from the public either, but there is Bob on camera...this could be seen as a form of liberation, I think. Though one gets old on the outside, on the inside one never really stops being young. And that is because: the soul does not age.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM

Not like cheese

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM

"...an old, notably unattractive, fully clothed cleaning lady..."

Interesting that when I challenged the age bias that freda said she was sick and tired of, that the above is apparently what "60 year old woman" conjures for Reborn Al.

But actually, I wasn't thinking that 60 year old women were unattratctive, bottom of the status hierarchy "cleaning lady" sorts of people when I said "60 year old nearly nude women".

Rather, I was actually thinking more along the lines of Tina Turner, Toni Morrison, Joni Mitchell, Diane Keaton, Lauren Hutton, Buffy St Marie, Julie Christie, Vanessa Redgrave, Joan Baez, Emmylou Harris, or a bazillion others.

Or the millions of beautiful older women with smooth AND wrinkled (in all the right places) skin, large and small bones, short and long legs...

But you run with your stereotype there Al, and I'll run with mine.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:18 PM

I get the impression that some people may have missed that it is clearly intended to be tongue in cheek. Well, it's intended to sell underwear, so far as the people paying for it are concerned, but it's being done in a humorous mode.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:43 PM

Calender Girls

As GUEST Date: 02 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM (use a bloody handle!) was saying...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:27 PM

Dylan's words taken up and put into a different song by Steve Goodman and quite appropriate here:

"Ain't it hard to realizzzzzzeeee
He ain't sellin' any alibiiiiiiiiiis
As he stares into the vacuum of your eeyeyyyyeyeyyyyes
And says, D'you'wanna make a deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal? "

<"We wound up at the lost and found
Love is blind but now I see
That my whole world lies waiting
Behind...Door Number Three">

Selling out is one of the two great American Traditions
the other one is striving to be the kind of person who has something worth selling out

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 09:45 PM

Some of you people are just too much. The man doesn't walk on water. If he wants to sell a song for a commercial, so be it. If you don't wish to buy the product, don't.    How dare anyone try to place their values on someone else.

I still think he looks great in the video - not craggy but clean. Isn't it a bit hypocritical for people to make fun of the way Dylan looks and then take exception to the way a model looks?

I know that I've contributed to this mess of a discussion, but isn't it rather sad that we can waste so much energy discussing women's underwear and what a man chooses to do with his own life? Shame on all of us, myself included.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Al Aronowitz, reborn
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:13 PM

It's clear as rain to me, Jolly Good, that we have both failed to understand one another's intentions and implications. That makes us even. I admire mature women. Have you seen the video of "Sweetheart Like You"? Does the woman in the Victoria's Secret ad strike you as "immature"? Hard to say, isn't it?... unless you've met her.

I think you're just pissed off that I don't make as vulnerable a target as what you had in mind....nor does Bob Dylan. But again, I may be wrong. Maybe you are filled with nothing but good intentions. I wouldn't bet on it, though. ;-) I suspect that you are in fact mean and spiteful, and hoping to score some really hurtful points on various regular members of this forum while beating your favorite drum. It's hard to do that when they, like you and me, remain nothing but a faceless name on a computer screen.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: freda underhill
Date: 02 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM

you know, i havent even seen the ad!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 01:55 AM

Personally, I can't see what all the fuss is about. It's an ad for chrissake - a good ad in my opinion, and I think Dylan looks good.

There is a real world out there you know.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:53 AM

We can't see the real world for all the advertising plastered over it.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:04 AM

People who are Dylan devotees aren't going to dislike ANYTHING their man does, pure and simple. He could be a mass murderer, and they'd come up with a reason to stick by him.

Ron, you seem to conveniently forget we judge people all the time, and measure what they seem to be against our own yardstick of values. You also seem to be unaware we have other options for expressing our displeasure with The Bob besides choosing not to buy VS undies (which aren't realistic clothing options for most humans anyway).

We can boycott Bob Dylan. Of course, I've been boycotting Bob Dylan since "Tangled Up in Blue" went out to the highest bidder, so I can't do anything more than I already have, besides share my opinion of him with others, which is what I'm doing in this thread and in my 3D life when this dumb fucking soft porn commercial comes up as a subject around the watercooler and among friends.

I once admired his songwriting ability, but have never felt he was THE musical icon of my generation, nor the spokesman of people of conscience of my generation, as his myth and hype PR machine has portrayed him over the years.

After all these years of enduring the Dylan hype, I not only do not admire the man, but I have nothing but contempt for Bob Dylan, as should be plain from this thread. He appears to me to be a person of little integrity, and even less talent. His most devoted fans appear to me, to be applauding their memories of an idyllic Dylan which never existed. That is my opinion. I have no expectation that Dylan devotees will share it. In fact, I'm sure they will find it to be nearly impossible to even tolerate it in their presence.

Because I don't like Bob Dylan or certain Mudcat posters doesn't make me a mean person. Though people who attempt to conflate personal taste/opinion which conflicts with their own with negative character traits of the person whose tastes they don't share, in my experience, are passive aggressive jerks.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Nancy King at work
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 10:48 AM

I haven't seen the commercial, but I sure have heard about it...

On the radio driving to work this morning, there was a "news" story about it, which included the following:

"Purists might wonder what would make Dylan sell out. To quote a 1965 interview, 'Women's underwear.' "

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM

GUEST of 10:04 am. Right Said Fred. Good Rap.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 01:17 PM

There are a few things Bob does on occasion that I don't like very much...but I still love Bob. This is for 2 reasons.

1. My love for Bob is unconditional. Why? Who knows. I guess because I've known about him very well for a very long time.

2. He's done a lot of wonderful music over the years and put some very powerful ideas in songs.

Among his songs there are a couple that I don't like very much, and a whole bunch that I love.

The Victoria's Secret ad is unusual, intriguing, but it doesn't bother me. I guess that's just a question of individual taste. If Paul Anka had done the ad, I probably would regard it with some contempt, because I have less respect for him than for Dylan.

How many people does one love unconditionally in one's life? Very few, unless one has attained enlightenment. In my case, it's still very few...but I do have a certain measure of goodwill toward just about everybody. Even Don Cherry and George Bush. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 02:13 PM

I admire his music/songs. I am less enraptured with the notion of him doing an ad. And if people could actually get over the idea that there is skin in commercials (seen the cover of Cosmopolitan lately?) and maybe a company is using sex to make a sale, (surprise, surprise) , they might get to the real issue. Why, for God's sake?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:51 PM

That is indeed a puzzler. He doesn't need the money or the exposure. He's not short of work. I think maybe he did it out of a sheer contrariness. He likes doing things that people don't expect him to do. He is the eternal inconoclast, forever shattering his own public image so as not to be defined or trapped by it. His album "Self-Portrait", for example, seems to have been calculated in order to alienate his more fanatical fans in the late 60's and make them just go away and leave him alone. I liked some of the stuff on it, though.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

it's a joke. back in 1966 he did an interview where they asked him what he would rather be doing besides writing and performing songs and he said he'd like to sell women's undergarments.

he's simply making his dream come true.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:05 PM

By God, Bob Fan, I think you've got it. It is a joke. I remember that quote now. And notice the sardonic look on his face in the ad. When you're in Bob's position in life you are free to make such jokes whether or not anyone gets it. His album notes and titles are also full of obscure references back to stuff that happened way back in the 60's. "Empire Burlesque" is one example...it was a club where he had played on various occasions when he was starting out.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:13 PM

Maybe he's takin' the money he makes from the commercial and putting it to a shelter for wayward women? Settle down girl guest, maybe he is.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:18 PM

Wonder why the girl guest didn't complain about the makeup worn by the females? Makes them look cheap. Some guest said VS sells underwear. What's with the makeup? And was Bob wearing any?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM

More importantly, was he wearing a corset? :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

Now, THAT is a good question.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

He mighta been wearin a dress or one of them funny little man skirts. Don't you find it somewhat suspicious that they don't show any part of him below the neck.

He even might have doilies on around his suspenders. I bet he does!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:10 PM

Show of hands - how many people who have been making comments about the ad have actually watched the entire ad?   Hmmmm...

Guest 10:04am may not realize it, but I actually agree with him/her/it . People do tend to judge others based on their own "yardstick of values".   While it is true, it is very unfair and self-righteous for us to assume anything, just as Guest 10:04 seems to assume that those of us that like the commercial are Dylan "devotees". I admire his music, but I do not let that cloud my feelings about the ad - positive or negative. I wonder if Guest can say the same thing?

Again, this is all a tempest in a teapot over a relatively minor issue. It does appear that those who have placed Dylan on a pedestal can call him a sellout, so be it.   There is nothing wrong with making an honest dollar or honest art.   Dylan can do both, and more power to him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

What amazes me is the sheer number of posts on this thread. It's the most successful Dylan thread ever on Mudcat. I'm not sure if I've seen the whole ad or not...I haven't seen it on TV, so I assume I've missed part of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

It is possible that the large number of comments are inspired by the sultry Lolita-type angel with the fluffy wings. Try to be objective, now, Little Hawk!! :>))

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Matt_R
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 12:48 AM

I love Dylan. Seeing him anywhere is always awesome to me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:10 AM

"What amazes me is the sheer number of posts on this thread."

Amen. Actually I saw the longer version of the ad as I was flipping channels last night. It's better than a lot of commercials, I could figure out what they were advertising. The young lady was amply covered and, as in most cases, her garb was as dirty or chaste and demure as you make it out to be in your own head.

And if Dylan was learing, he needs to get his learer fixed. I think that was just him acting, generally a mistake.

So why is Dylan selling out to make this commercial and Tiger Woods isn't when he made that Caddyshack spoofing ad? Now that's one funny, musically related commercial ("I'm all right...").

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Bob Fan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:51 AM

I love Dylan too and I think it's a riot! It makes me laugh every time I see it though my brain doesn't quite sure know what compartment to place it in.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From:
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

I'm just glad he isn't wearing a bra and panties himself.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:27 AM

GUEST took them all away from him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM

Alas, I shall never find out Victoria's Secret. Hey, girl AND guy guest, do you purchase from VS? Have you written your letters to VS to lodge your complaint--or are you worried that VS will simply throw your missive in the trash because it has no signature? Easy to see where you are coming from.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Jeanie
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

Bruce, all is not lost. You may yet find out Victoria's Secret, if my theory is correct. Have a read of my crazed ramblings suggesting that Victoria's Secret is the American equivalent of Joanna Southcott's Box. This sealed box of mystical secrets (which, despite appearing in a Monty Python sketch, really does exist and is taken seriously by some) is only allowed to be opened in the collective presence of 24 Anglican Bishops, in a typically tedious, tea-drinking British kind of way. Two or more centuries since the box was sealed, they haven't managed to get around to it yet. Now, with the appearance of Dylan, the conditions for revealing Victoria's Secret seem to be a lot more interesting. According to my warped "theory", it is only allowed to be revealed in the presence of 24 singer-songwriters, and dear old Dylan just happened to be the first. I reckon you are in with a very good chance of being in on the action, Bruce !

- jeanie

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM

The reason why Dylan is perceived by so many as a sell out is because of the way he cultivated his career image over the years. It was in Dylan's heyday that the "spokeman for his generation" crap started, when his songs with political content were given as proofof that status, which many of us now believe wasn't really an accurate portrayal of Dylan at all. When it was advantageous for him to be perceived as a political radical in tune with the radical left at that stage of his career, he cultivated and courted that image. Many of us believe he was blatantly opportunitistic about it, just as we believe he is being blatantly opportunistic in this era of slick soft porn sex sells sensibilities. It's all about the image with Dylan, it seems to us.

For those of us who have perceived him negatively in this regard all along, or at least were suspicious and wary of it, it has appeared to us that he has continued to cultivate and court that iconic image of himself from those early days right on down to the Victoria's Secret commercial.

BTW, I don't know of any person who would use the words "advertising" and "honest" in the same sentence, but I do understand there are people who actually believe in sexualizing capitalism if that's what it takes to keep the public well sedated and preoccupied.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

What's a TV?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:32 PM

"BTW, I don't know of any person who would use the words "advertising" and "honest" in the same sentence, but I do understand there are people who actually believe in sexualizing capitalism if that's what it takes to keep the public well sedated and preoccupied."

I'm disappointed. Are you really sure you couldn't have worked the word "bourgeois" into that sentence? Did you even try?

I promise, Dylan wasn't lying in the ad. He doesn't wear ladies underwear in public. Well, not often, not any more.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

Dylan did not seek the "icon" image, he had it thrust upon him while doing what came naturally...playing and writing great songs. As soon as he perceived that he was being used by a large contingency of people as a front man to further their political concerns he became uncomfortable and deliberately stepped out of the mould they were trying to put him in. This has happened repeatedly throughout his career. Dylan's a natural writer. He doesn't write by pre-calculation, it just happens. His sincerity in the protest songs he wrote in the early 60's was as plainly obvious at the time as his sincerity in the late 70's-early 80's when he was preaching a Christian gospel in his songs. He has tried to dodge being labelled ever since about 1963 (when he became famous). Even Joan Baez, who was very upset with Dylan's apparent abandonment of "protest" in the later 60's has stated quite clearly in her writing that there is simply NO WAY that he didn't mean what he said in those early protest songs. What you can't handle, Guest, is that he changed. He did not wish to become someone's icon. People who are unwilling to change themselves don't take it too well when their heroes change. The songs stand on their own merits, and always will.

Nothing can change one's starry-eyed idealism as fast as hanging out with people who are fanatical about something and are determined to make you their spokesman whether you want to be or not. I encountered the same thing when I was hanging out with a lot of Native North Americans, and I got sick of it. Fortunately though, I wasn't famous at the time, so I could just walk away from it all and be left alone.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:08 PM

The suggestion that there is anything I can't handle about Dylan is silly. I don't give a shit about Dylan. I think he is a money grubbing, attention seeking jerk. I think he has cultivated and courted an image that is phony. I don't think much of him as a musician (for instance he has literally no musical talent whatsoever when it comes to singing, and I've never been impressed with his playing either) most of the music he's created.

Why is that so hard for you to handle LH? Hero worship is what it looks like to me, as I said in my post above. For Dylan devotees, he can do no wrong. For the rest of us, there is no reason why we shouldn't use the same yardsticks to measure the man, the musician, the celebrity that we do anyone else.

Don't like my opinion of Dylan? C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:15 PM

So why not just walk away from it GUEST Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:08 PM?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Well, yes, the fact that you "don't give a shit about him" suggests to me that you probably don't know all that much about him either. I mean, why would you if you don't care? How MUCH don't you care? :-) Tell us.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:26 PM

I was evidently mistaken, Guest, when I assumed you were a former fan who got mad when Bob changed. You appear instead to be someone who never got what he was saying in the first place. You have plenty of company out there, but most of them are ignoring this thread. If you knew Dylan's catalog as well as I do you would have to be in some bizarre state of denial to assert that he has no singing talent. Ever been to any live Dylan concerts back in the 60's, 70's, 80's, or even 90's? I agree that his voice is pretty well gone now.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM

We seem to be confusing vocalist with singer.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 07:44 PM

More like confusing talent with notoriety.

He never had a decent singing voice, ever.

McGrath, my participation in the thread has been to discuss the commercial and Dylan's part in it. As happens with threads, there has been drift, and I've followed it.

I have seen the entire commercial while watching television a couple of times now, while many of the posters to this thread claim not to have seen it, yet don't feel shy about commenting upon it anyway.

Anyone who has been a part of mainstream culture in the US, and particularly in Minnesota where I live, hasn't been able to escape the Dylan hype over the years. Because I live in his home state, it is nigh on impossible to escape the PR and hype surrounding him, just as it is for Prince (at least he has musical talent), or Garrison Keillor (who also has a lot more notoriety than musical talent, and also cultivates and courts the phony icon status thing).

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM

Just be glad you have escape the Harry Lee Wigley hype...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From:
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:44 AM

What's it all coming to?

Here's a link to the commerical in question for your Windows Media Player:

http://mfile.akamai.com/6313/wmv/vs.download.akamai.com/6313/fall_2003/vsangels_300k.wmv

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:53 PM

Yahoo - AP story

Looks like someone from AP is reading Mudcat!   At least he could have done was give me credit for the quote! Why does Dennis Elsas get all the glory??   :)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

I don't think I could have any serious regard for the opinions of nayine who doesn't like Garrison Keiller...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM

I don't think I could have any serious regard for the opinions of anyone who doesn't like Garrison Keiller...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM

"Where have you been, my blue-eyed son,
Where have you been, my darlin' young one?
"I've been cavorting with scantily-clad ladies...."

"It's some hard, hard, hard, hard,
Yeah, some hard cash is gonna fall...."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:11 PM

And the glorious thread rolls on! :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,guest-hater
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:41 AM

You suck dude.
How many albums has Dylan put out? He was a MAJOR influence on Jimi Hendrix, Beatles, Young, Cash, Garcia......and soooo many more. His voice? I cannot understand how people are still commenting on the greatest poet of all times' VOICE!!!???! I mean really, Have you heard his 63' album? How about Desire?? HAve you heard Desire? Hard Rain? Give it rest, you have no idea what you are talking about, he has more voices then hats~!

You SUCK!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:53 AM

And for something far more interesting than debating about a Victoria's Secret ad, check out the wonderful Dylan interview in the Los Angeles Times: got to the threads above (in music section) entitled:

Dylan in the L.A. Times

and...

Review: Bob Dylan - Biography

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

I haven't seen the ad in question (neither of the links given early in the thread seem to take me there), but all the other VS ads I've seen have been idiotic and offensive. I can only imagine adding a leering Bob Dylan would make them even worse.

My opinions:
Victoria Secret and the attitude it feeds (and feeds off of) helps to create a culture that objectifies women.

A culture that objectifies women helps to encourage violence toward women.

All the women in VS ads are young and "beautiful". Aside from the fact that they look like vapid children to me, this helps to create a culture that defines female beauty and sexuality in terms of a very narrow range of shape and age. Women in the their 40s, 50s, and 60s are so much more sexy than these kids, but our society doesn't notice this, and actually spends millions of dollars telling us that adult women are over the hill as sexually desirable people.

Anyone who uses their fame to make an ad for a major corporation is a sell-out. Especially those who were part of the revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s. In Dylan's case, he doesn't even need the money. He just wants to get his face out there once again. A career move by someone whose ego is more important that his integrity.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM

Whoa there, Nelly....

First off, let me say that I have no real affinity for Bob. Take him or leave him, in all the categories of writing, singing, appearance, I can think of men I enjoy more. HOWEVER, I think this commercial is really a cause for celebration.

(a small aside to JohnP, you might have missed the boat a bit about VS--catalogs are for the most part tasteful, and they manage to make a product that is fairly priced and well-made. Sears and JCPenney don't use 40+ models in their underwear section either. Sexy is what you do with it once you get it home)

Celebration, yes. Both of these entities, Bob and VS, have reached a point in their careers where they can acutally do something as stupid as associate themselves with one another, and it gets this kind of response. Last time I checked, we still lived in the land where any publicity is good publicity, and they have that in spades.

No VS wearer I know is going to throw out their undies because Bob was on a commercial, and no Bob-fan is going to trash their albums and boycott concerts because he was on a commercial. I think they will enjoy the new market, and ignore all the limp-wristed criticisms. Either way, they win.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

JenEllen, It's interesting that you responded to points I didn't make, while not actually responding to points I did make. It's not about the quality of product or the tastefulness of the catalog. I agree that VS is several steps better in those regards than most of their competition. It's about the attitude and the message. I know that almost no one uses adult models. That was part of my point.

". . . the land where any publicity is good publicity . . ."
How sad that this is true. I still maintain that anyone who uses this fact is a sell-out.

Obviously this ad isn't going to change anyone's mind about VS or about Dylan. It's just not all that important. I like sexy underhings as well as most, but I don't agree with the way they are marketed and sold. I like a lot of Bob Dylan's work, but I don't respect his decision to pursue publicity in a way that, to me, displays a lack of integrity.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:44 PM

"revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s"

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to boast about revolution of ideals and then deny an artist the right to make their art? With all due respect John, it is one thing to critique a song/video/commercial on it's merit, but aren't you a bit guilty of stereotyping since you admit that you haven't even seen the commercial?

There are plenty of examples of art "objectiving" women throughout the ages, but I disagree that this automatically encourages violence towards women. You can't hide sexuality, that was one of the changes that resulted from the "revolution of ideals in the 60s and 70s".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:45 PM

By the way, ALL the models in VS are adults

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:50 PM

You are correct, John, it's not all that important. I don't think any woman who is at all at ease with herself is going to care one way or the other how things are marketed and sold to her, so long as the product itself stands. That was my point.

Bob is enough of a "BOB" to withstand snide remarks and VS has garnered enough of a following that they can do stupid things like prime-time fashion shows (that most of their customers didn't watch anyway) and vapid commercials. All of the chatter here is pointless to either party, simply because it's toothless enough not to matter. Through their previous dealings with their public, they have made enough of a name for themselves that we forgive their little indiscretions in favor of the product.

We had a discussion about this very thing at work this morning, and the consensus was something like this:
"It's what happens when you make a good product. Have you ever worn their "IT" bras? The commercial could have had models mugging old people and retarded children while Bob Dylan is in the background singing "Roll Out The Barrel" and whacking a burlap bag of newborn kittens against the Venician pillars, and I'd have most likely spooned my IT bras and said "They probably weren't real kittens anyway...."

The quality of product from either party is hardly effected by a single ill-planned commercial. The worst they are guilty of is bad judgement.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

Ron,
Who said anything about denying an artist the right to do whatever he pleases? Bob Dylan can do anything damn fool he chooses to, and I'm not claiming the right to regulate him in any way. I just said I don't respect his choice.

And who said anything about hiding sexuality? Where do you get these ideas? I like sexuality, and I like it when it is front and center in our media. I was objecting to the massively pervasive message that women stop being sexually appealing when they pass forty years of age. I stand by my assertion that objectifying women as sex toys helps create a culture where violence toward women is possible and expected. Please note: I'm not saying that women of any age shouldn't be sexual, or sexy, or shouldn't revel in their sexiness, or shouldn't dress in sexy clothes if they want to.

And if you couldn't figure out what I meant when I said that ads don't use adult women, given the context of everything else I said, then you need to work on your reading comprehension skills a bit.

Please respond to what I actually say, not to some strange spin you decide to put on it.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

There is no need to get insulting John. I treated your opinions with respect and I think I am entitled to the same. This is a discussion, not a contest. That was uncalled for.

I did respond to what you said. YOU did not respond to what I was saying when I asked if you weren't being hypocritical to pass judgement on a commercial that you never saw and based your comment on opinions. From your original post, you "imagine" a leering Bob Dylan and make assumptions that the commercial is like the rest based on other Victoria Secret commercials you have seen.

You also said that the models look like "vapid children", yet you admit to not having seen this particular commercial.

I NEVER disagreed with your statements about the portrayal of women, nor did I EVER accuse you of saying that you were hiding sexuality. I'm sorry if my statment wasn't clear or if you didn't comprehend it, but I was trying to say that the sexual revolution enables commercials like this to be possible.   I do disagree with you that the woman is being treated like a "sex toy".

With art we can all make different interpretations, just like Bob Dylan's songs.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

I should clarify one thing in my last post.   I do agree with John in the sense that the media overlooks the sexuality of women over 40, and I do think he is right when he says that art CAN promote violence against women. However, I disagree that this is as pervasive as many people make it out to be. In the case of this particular Victoria's Secret commercial, I personally do not see it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: John P
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:32 PM

Sorry, Ron. I wasn't trying to be insulting, or at least no more than you were when you said "By the way, ALL the models in VS are adults", as if you didn't know what I was talking about. I like discussions, and I dislike competitions.

I hope you can understand why I thought you were saying that I was hiding, or wanted to hide, sexuality. It was the "You can't hide sexuality" that you wrote in a post directed to me that made me think that. I think I understand better what you were saying now.

Yes, one of the things that came out of the revolution of ideas in the 60s was that sex, sexuality, and sexiness can be talked about openly, and shown in the media. Another idea that I took away from that time is that the corporate masters only have power over us if we let them. Sexuality as presented by VS, and by most of the rest of the media, is an example of corporations using the results of the revolution to sell things. But since they only portray a terribly narrow band of the idea, we can see that they don't really get it. They are just pretending to get it in order to make more money. By buying into the definition of sexiness as put forth by VS, we are letting the corporate masters have power over us. Oh, crud, this is way too esoteric and important sounding for a discussion of a silly TV ad. But Bob Dylan, as one of the chief voices of my generation calling for us see a better world, and to not give in to the status quo, loses my respect to some extent when he lends his face and voice to an advertisement, especialy since I'm pretty sure he's just doing it to get some attention. It is even worse that it is an ad for a company that presents women in such a narrow, contrained way. Did you say this was Dylan pursuing his art? Are you sure?

I'd love to actually see the ad in question. None of the web sites I've seen seem to show it. Does anyone know a web site where I can go see it? I'm certainly not going to sit around and watch the TV until it happens to come on.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:41 PM

Victoria's Secret has some kittens in undies in their commercial, but Wal-Mart offered a 10yr old girl a $25 gift certificate to withhold litigation after she had been 'allegedly' fondled by a store employee. Who is sending the wrong idea to women about their sexuality, and given the choice, where would you buy your underwear?

So what if the media overlooks the sexuality of women over 40? There is no way that a woman over 40 is gonna 'out-kitten a kitten' without looking ridiculous. If by 40, a woman isn't secure in her sexuality, there is no outside influence that is going to matter one whit.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 04:57 PM

You know, this ad doesn't really compare to the music video I just flicked past with my remote control. Real tame by comparison.

Not that I would want to bring any observations about the current state of the music industry into this kind of conversation or anything.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM

John - peace through understanding!   Aside from being the motto of the old New York World's Fair, I think it fits here.   It is very easy to misread intent and tone in e-mails. It is also easy for the writer (me) to not fully explain thoughts. I thank you for the post and I too apologize if MY words were interpreted as insulting, that was not my intent.

I do see your points John and I know that people consider him to be a "sellout", but I go back to an earlier point that people place too much on Dylan to be a "spokesperson" or hold him up to ideals that he never created. Sure there was an image, but how much of that was open to interpretation? How much did he really create and how much did the media and OUR generation thrust on him? There are numerous examples where he shunned the title of being a spokesperson. In a way, we all fell victims to "corporate masters" by turning Dylan into an idol instead of a great songwriter and performer, which is all he ever was.

I do understand the issues with corporations and people should question the motives.   However, I don't think we should always pre-judge or disregard a commercial just because it comes from a large company. Victoria's Secrets sells bras and panties - they aren't trying to change the world. They want to showcase their product in the best possible light and they aren't taking themselves too seriously. We all try to sell our own product in many ways, and I can't fault anyone for that. Dylan is having fun, he isn't pushing a product that will harm us.    I do respect your views on how the media sells sex, but in this case I personally feel the commercial is different.   Having a beautiful woman in a skimpy outfit is not an invitation to be a plaything and I don't feel the commercial treats it as such.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM

He isn't leering, John. He's scowling. Looking cynical and tired of the whole "romance" thing...and that is the message in the song "Sick of Love" as well. It's an interesting counterpoint to find in a lingerie ad.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,i am victoria's secret
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM

i think bob looks bloody great in this video. and he certainly isnt leering. its a contemplative gaze, him thinking, as he does best.
myself, i cant fault the man on much (well, maybe self portrait or empire burlesque eh?) .. "the man has more voices than hats~!" cracked me up..
"i went back to find Isis.. just to tell her I LOVE HERRRR!"
long live bob!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM

"I don't think any woman who is at all at ease with herself is going to care one way or the other how things are marketed and sold to her, so long as the product itself stands. That was my point."

First off, you shouldn't be trying to represent yourself as if you speak for women, because you don't. You are one women, and I think you'd find a lot of women disagreeing with your statement I quote above.

Second, I care a great deal how things are marketed and sold to me, and I base most of my buying decisions evaluating those things. I also care about who makes the product where, and under what conditions. All those factors go into my buying choices.

Third, advertising just doesn't work on me, because I don't consume like a mindless couch potato.

Fourth, I have never bought from VS and never will because of my objections to the sexist, objectified way they sell. But I do know women who have and who do shop there, but they seem to make a lot of complaints about the quality and durability of the product they wear.

Fifth, the commercials seem tailor made for people who need to be entertained while they are being sold a bill of goods. I find those sorts of people pretty superficial.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:21 PM

JenEllen, I have no idea what age you are, but you sound like a very insecure, and immature woman to me.

Some of us don't by our undergarments, or anything else for that matter, at VS or at WalMart. Jesus, is that the standard we are talking here? Are you married to Bubba?

Look, Bob Dylan isn't sexy--not even on his best day, and certainly not in the age group the commercials are aimed at, most of whom just consider him another over the hill, faded rock star. He is old. Putting an old faded rock star in a VS commercial with women young enough to be his grandchildren is creepy, not sexy, not tasteful, not even edgy. It is just plain creepy in that dirty old rich man, taking a pretty young thing as a sex toy kind of way.

In this commerical, to anyone who isn't into the whole The Bob things, he looks more than a little creepy in the commercial. Scowling to some maybe who don't want to think that is the way most young women are perceiving this commercial. But leering is also the way it is being seen.

Why can't people here just accept the fact that different people will, of course, view this commerical very differently, depending on their age, gender, and their social, cultural, and political sensitivities and sensibilities.

And why is it that there seems to be such a pervasive subtext in this thread of the corporate standard of beauty and sexiness as a legitimate standard anyway?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:25 PM

Superficial? Oh, no doubt they are... :-) But not like you and me, right, Guest? (Heh!)

I avoid and ignore advertising any way I can and I don't normally watch TV. I would've missed this ad entirely if not for Mudcat.

But I enjoy seeing Bob, just because he is Bob and we go back a long way. I don't give a hang one way or the other about Victoria's Secret...but look at all the yacking that ad has inspired! And yes, he's looking thoughtful...certainly isn't leering.

Meanwhile, there is a fascinating interview with Dylan on a thread that has garnered 11 posts up there somewhere. Amusing. Woogie Boogie!

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM

You know Little Hawk, you have a very annoying tendency to say things like "he's looking thoughtful...certainly isn't leering" as if it were fact. It isn't. It is your opinion. Your opinion is not shared by everyone, hence the 200+ posts to the thread, a lot of which is discussing all the various ways this commercial feeds into the most sexist culture on the planet, the culture of corporate tv advertising.

In fact, a whole lot more of this thread is about the sexism in the commercial, and the sexism of corporate advertising, than it is about Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:51 PM

Vee need to get Herr Liebenscheiss in here, Guest, to determine chust vat nasty traumas you have suffered at ze hands uff ze vicious exploiters uff vimmen in ze past zat are inspiring all zis concern. Could it be a child-abuse situation percolating in ze old subconscious, perhaps? Hmmmm. Tell me vat you are zinkink about ven ze name uff your fadder comes up, ja? Vell, I sink vee are onto somezink here! Chust relax und let ze deeply buried associations pass sru your mind, ja? Und ven does a soughtful look transmute into a leer??? Und vy? Ja, dis iss gutt stuff...

I sink vee may yet arrive at a major breaksrough in ziss case und even uncover some nasty anti-semitism vile vee are at it! It iss qvite possible zat Victoria's Secret has conspired to embarrass Mister Dylan, who iss, as we all know, a Jew...by compromising hiss public image in ziss horrible fashion. Sink about zat!!!

Doktor Liebenscheiss

(Hey, nameless one...Joan Baez thought Dylan was sexy and Jenellen is light years ahead of you in the maturity department.)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:22 PM

I haven't seen the ad and I don't care if Dylan is leering or looking contemplative. I do think its a poor performance on Dylan's part and is demeaning to women. I'm disappointed that he would partake in such a blatant sell-out. He obviously doesn't need the money so he must be a greedy bastard, after all. Seems he has caved in to the forces that he urged everyone to defy. He has always been controversial so maybe it was the controversy he was craving. Who knows ... maybe its mid-life crisis gone public.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:44 PM

It may be demeaning to women: Direct that remark to the women participating in the commercial and the people who purchase from VS. And at Bob. If you're gonna use a shotgun, get 'em all, d.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:47 PM

No, it's a joke. Or else it's just a lark. He doesn't need the money. He's doing 100 concerts a year and collecting royalties to the sky.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:47 PM

It is amazing how people admit to not seeing the commercial and still pass judgement on content. Henry Miller's books were banned with exactly the same thought process.   We also have a government that never saw weapons and went to war. I guess we are all the same.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:40 AM

HEY! Are you sayin' people have to be informed to have opinions??! Is that what yer sayin'? HEY!!! I'M TALKIN' TO YOU! THIS IS THE USA, BUDDY!!! ARE YOU LOOKIN' AT ME? HEY!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:16 AM

I don't think a man that age should wear a thong, suspenders and push-up bra!

RtS
(I'll stay with Y-fronts & singlets)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:25 AM

All depends what you mean by a leer - my dictionary gives the definition as sly or lascivious or malign. I'd say that "sly" just about fits that expression of his, and the song pretty clearly rules out "lascivious".

That's why, when I introduced the word into the thread I called it a "sardonic leer" - "bitter, scornful, mocking, sneering, cynical". But with a humourous touch, because he's parodying himself. As he always has been prone to do.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:57 AM

I've been the most outspoken voice in this thread about the sexism being used to sell VS undies by an over the hill rocker. I have seen the commercial, on television, and not as part of a news report, so I think I can speak to the commercial and the context in which it is being shown to hawk VS undies, Ron.

As to the comparison to Henry James, believe me, this commercial doesn't rise to that level of artistry. Not by a long shot. It is crass and demeaning.

Little Hawk, I find it interesting that your perception of a "mature" woman is one who buys into the corporate standard of beauty. Doesn't surprise me of course, because your responses show you to be pretty damn defensive when the "s" word is used in your presence, and I don't mean sex or sexual. You one of the boys who believes there is no such thing?

It's a commercial with an old man and sweet young thing. In US culture, that combination only happens when the old man has money and power, and the sweet young thing wants the money and power, not the old man. So the old man can buy young, greedy, ruthless women and use them as sex toys. That's the deal. That's the misogynist stereotyping going in the commerical. You need stereotypes to sell shit on tv, and this one is tried and true.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM

Wow! Looks like you are working on a stereotype in your last paragraph guest! In fact, you have used numerous stereotypes in your comments such as "over the hill rocker".

Your interpretation of the commercial is different than mine - that doesn't make either of us wrong. I don't disagree with your thoughts about modern culture using sexism. I do disagree that this commerical is "crass and demeaning".    Watching this commercial does not make treat women as "sex toys" nor incite me to violence.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:01 AM

Was he singing "Lay, Lingerie, Lay"?
RtS
(I'll get me basque....)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:10 AM

GUEST: You HAVE been one of the more outspoken voices on this thread. A no-name voice. If you believe your opinions, why do you fear signing your name? You are a regular--I wonder about your unwillingness to stand up for what you think, other than under the mantle of anonymity. Seems very strange.

Also, your vitriol has allowed you to believe your own press. Little Hawk has often been vocal concerning 'women's issues'--in support of them--, and he has always had the guts to sign his name. Him I can treat with respect, and I do. You? No, because you don't have respect for yourself and your beliefs.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM

Brucie, I've never been one to approve of anonymous Guests (or trolls), but in this instance I do agree with her (assuming it is a female).   If you read her posts I think you can see reasons why she would wish to remain anonymous and I respect that.

I don't agree with the direction she has taken some of her arguements, but I think we should respect her anonymity in this case.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM

Guest:

It wasn't Henry James that was being invoked, but Henry Miller. A little closer, I reckon.

I dunno what to tell you about agism and sexism; part of it may be cultural, but part of it may just be the louder voice of genes at work in the mysteries of the universe...at least, I sure don't know how they work!

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

Quite right Ron, it is perfectly reasonable for people to post anonymously whenever they feel thisis appropriate. However adding a label to allow fellow mudcatters to distinguish between different people posting as GUEST in no way reduces anonymity, it's just being helpful. And my impression is that the nameless GUEST in question might well think being helpful is a good idea.

This thread has for some time shown signs of moving on from Dylkanology/Dylanolatry/Dylanophobia to a more genernal discussion about sex and sexism in advertising, and stuff like that. Perhaps it's time this was reflected in a shift to a new thread? (Though of course that would probably mean picking up a few extra nameless GUESTS along the way...)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

You have no idea what my definition of a "mature woman" is, nameless one. :-) Let's see...I will try to define a mature woman.

A mature woman is: A woman who is at peace with herself and in charge of herself. She loves herself and she loves life. She is complete in herself and at peace with others. She is sovereign.

Such women are very good people to have around, and society would be lost without them, in my opinion.

I confess that I do not know what this "s" word is that you are referring to. So what is it?

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Judas Priest
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Ron wrote "Guest - I think your daughter needs to get out more if she is reading "pedophile pervert" in that commercial. That is a real stretch to make that connection."


You gotta be kidding Ron - that's EXACTLY how he comes across!!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM

Ron: If the purpose of a no-name guest is to take shots at people while remaining 'friends' with those people under another name--no, sir, I think you are wrong. I am not talking about the opinion; I am talking about the two-faced approach to it. Basically, shit or get off the pot. Sorry, buddy, but that's the way I see it. You know who this is from.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

It is possible to make comments as a "Guest" and still do it with a made-up name of some kind, such as "Wasted in Wawa" or "smarter than you". That would help a bit, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM

Judas, I think you need to make some restitution to Frankie Lee.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

Also, Ron, there were three 'anonymous' guests on this thread.

1) brucie pissing off the other two. Mine are obvious one-liners, and the guy pointed them out.

2) A regular guy 'catter who for some reason wanted to remain unknown--he just doesn't disguise his writing style well.

3) A regular gal 'catter who doesn't have the courage of her convictions.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM

Well this thread has certainly stirred things up.

One of the things that made me smile was the following
"The Dylan connection was established last year when Victoria's Secret creative director Ed Razek sifted through the music of more than 50 singers, from Tom Waits to Luciano Pavarotti, hunting for a tune for an ad featuring a lingerie-clad model with angel wings.

Tom Waits ? The fact that he makes a nice income from suing people who use his music or songs or soundalikes in any type of advert, would tend to exclude him from any future campaign. But if people find Dylan scary,odd or whatever , god knows what they would have made of Waits if he had appeared in the add.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM

Yeowch, Guest...In with the claws, eh sistuh? I am in no way speaking for the whole of womankind, hence the word "I" and not "WE". Anyone who expects the outside world to be responsible for her sensuality/sexuality/spirituality would problably react much the same way that you did. It's very easy to be judgemental when you rely on outside influences for your own sense of being. It's a stupid commercial, fer crissakes. One in a long line of stupid commercials, I'm sure. What bothers me (personally, note the use of the word "me") is the paranoid way that folks are perceiving this ad. I didn't see any guns held to anyone's heads (where would those girls put them? *G*) so what's wrong with thinking "Hey, at least someone out there can look good in that stuff" or "Wow, Bob's on TV" and letting it go at that? When you allow the little black box to define you, or you buy your undewear because Bob likes it, or your oil becuase Denis Leary said to, or your Hanes because you wanna be like Mike? You've got more problems than simply being put upon by an ill-tamed media.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

Judas Priest - you can interpret whatever you wish. You gotta be kidding if you read "pedophile" in that commercial. That woman looks like a child to you? Wow. You might also consider looking up the word "pedophile".   

Are you suggesting that someone of Dylan's age only look at people of his demographic?   That is rather bigoted.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

Tom Waits would have been WAY scarier than Bob Dylan. :-)

JenEllen's got it right. It's just a "Wow, look at that! Dylan's on TV!" reaction from those of us who happen to like the man...and nothing more than that.

If on the other hand, you don't like him...then it's "Oh, yuck, it's him again! Look at that jerk Dylan selling out on that crass lingerie ad!" I can understand such a reaction from people who already don't like Bob...or who have a rather narrowly defined notion of what is okay for Bob to do and what isn't okay for him to do. Yes, I comprehend what they don't like about the ad.

Opinions and prejudices (for and against). Everybody's got 'em.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:40 PM

Opinions and prejudices (for and against). Everybody's got 'em. Yeah, LH, and people notice the chip on your shoulder WELL before they see what kind of undies you've got on... *g*

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

I wanted to see what people are saying about this (so I read some of this and there is some good stuff here - thanks)… It was a very surprising thing at first, to see him doing the ad. I have to admit, I was floored. But why? He is promoting his music in it. That isn't unusual. And the inherent sexually; that's purely the Victoria's Secret side of it – sex sells, what a revelation! And females are buying it - not the least of which are 19'ish year old girls. So what's new? What is different, is having a revered personage – a mysterious and famous icon, a father figure lamenting about love gone wrong, to sell the stuff. That is a very odd strategy at first glance. Yet its precisely the eye catching contrast that Ad folks aim for to stand out in this neon nightmare of a culture. As far as Dylan doing it... he's made a career of doing the unexpected - of recreating his persona just when we might think we've got him nailed (yet again). That's just how he is. But I say AHHH, COME'ON NOW, I know ya know about my debutant! - a 19 year old girl who thinks he's creepy… Oh my god! Really? It's just too unbelievable to fathom. That's all. But [they ALL play on the penny whistle, you can hear them BLOW]… THAT IS hardly surprising and its certainly not the least bit enlightening - she no doubt would make the same assessment of him and his detached glare at his adoring crowds while on stage. And to turn the table a few degrees, 19 year olds in general tend to have the MARKET cornered on delusional (CREEPY) thinking. She needs to get real and take a very long and close look around (and in the mirror). That's all. And unfortunately, in this **** hole of an existence, she inevitably will be given the chance, all too soon, to LEARN what creepiness is and what it is NOT. Her opinion MIGHT then someday become worth something... AND, if she's lucky, she could even come to some decent understanding of his work and to appreciate the gifts he has given to us.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:08 PM

True enough, JenEllen, though I have to say this...I attain more grace through my likes than through my dislikes. And that's true of most people.

Pedro - Well said.

"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,me
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Two nearly random thoughts since this thread won't die.

1) Went by a maternity store because my wife wanted to look for somethings for my daughter who's expecting. We noticed that have thong underwear for expectant mothers. What's up with that? Surely if anyone deserves comfortable underwear it's an expectant mother.

2) Anyone seen the Dairy Queen they're running near us? Guy with his 2-3 year old boy facing forward in a kid carrier on his chest just bought something neat to eat. The kid wants it but Dad won't let him have it. Kid flicks the heel of his shoe up and Dad drops to his knees in pain. Now there's something we can talk about in an ad -- violence directed at parents by 2 year olds.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

Ron - bigoted, i don't really think so. Maybe it isn't dictionary term pedophile but it's like watching a dead man leering from the shadows at a 20 year old girl. Bobby is my all time favorite but man, he is losing it!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Ron - I just had the (kind of) hilarious image of Dylan coming to pick my 19 year old daughter up for a date. "Hey Bob, make sure she's home by midnight and don't let her fly around with wings out there in the foggy marsh!" "By the way, love the Vincent look, really cool man"

Thanks, I needed a good chuckle today...this thread slays me.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

Guest, we all have to look in a mirror sooner or later!!! Don't late his age scare you.

Leering is a great pastime!!!!

I have to admit, his looks in Masked and Anonymous scared me!!!   He looked like hell! (I love strange movies, but that one put me to sleep.) In the Victoria Secret commercial he was cleaned up at least. I like the Vincent Price look!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:20 PM

Bob was simply keeping his word when he agreed to do these. remember the 1965 san francisco press conference? Someone asked, " if you WERE to sell out to commercial interests, which one would it be?" bob's reply...

"ladies garments"

it got a laugh then and it deserves a laugh now. nothing wrong with him doing this, IMO.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

Yeah. Exactly.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

We all sell out. The fact that we are on computers right now shows that we've sold out.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM

Ron - well put about the computers. Let those who are without sin cast the first Rolling Stones. Besides, I'm not sure what sellin' out even is. But in his career, Dylan has been accused of it so many times, he'd probably actually do it just to check out what its like. Fact is, you firstly have to NEED to sell to "sell out"... other wise you're just doing routine business.

Whenever he passes, I predict there will be "die-hard" fans out here, pun intended, who feel he's just sellin'-out...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, they'll say, "You've got a lot of nerve..."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM

I don't watch much t.v. and haven't seen the ad but I do know that underwear ads are demeaning to women. I know this because when I was a young woman I modelled underwear. It only took one "businessman's lunch" to convince me that they weren't there to buy underwear for their wives.

I don't think Dylan is that innocent or naive to misunderstand what he has done. He knows perfectly well that this would create controversy and, once again, change his image. If thats what he wants to do, fine. He is now another weakling that has caved in to crass commercialism. I don't need to see the ad to make this deduction. I am really disappointed. There's nothing sadder than a fallen hero. Oh well, hubris.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM

We don't all sell out Ron, but it sure is clear you have.

Can you explain just how using a computer is "selling out"?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

If it was a no-name guy, the ad would be another one in a series of ads that use tits and ass to make sales. What's new. Similar stuff happens to guys. Our children cannot live up to the phony crap they are fed by television or magazine commercials. Dylan is, in my opinion, incidental to the 'message'. dianavan has hit on something, but I feel it is too narrow a view, not a wrong view. This is about the marketing of bodies to sell lingerie. Most people can't live up to the image, nor do I think they should try. Maybe what should be done with this type of thing is use it as a method of teaching kids about critical viewing AND critical thinking. Boys AND girls. I am tired of hearing that the only people targeted in adds like this are girl people. Bullshit. Boys get a wrong message also, and they are dragged through the mud, too. Let's broaden the scope a little here, call a spade a shovel, and deal with the real issues, not just the smoke and mirrors.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:09 PM

I got that last line from "Cliches R Us".

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM

Well, when you consider that in Cuba a middle-class person earns less than $500 Canadian a year (or $350 US)...and for that they live a nice life with full free medical care, but they get by without an SUV, a computer, surround sound, a two-car garage, 850 CD's, and all our other expensive toys...

We in North America have ALL sold out.

We fiddle while Rome burns. We consume the World's riches at an unprecedented rate and we invade small countries and use the Third World for cheap labour. We are the whores of Babylon. Chew on that.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

Speak for yourself, Little Hawk. I have medical coverage and a computer but none of the rest of the stuff on your list. I didn't set myself up as "protest singer" either. Dylan's just another old hypocrite that got rich because we were naive enough to believe him.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

Catalogues sell male underwear too. And you don't see a wrinkly, balding, paunchy guy modelling their merchandise? Is that a gross discriminatory stance?

Right or wrong, companies will use the body that makes their product look appealing to the majority of people, whether they are selling perfume, cars, fast food or life insurance.

And even if their idea of 'good' isn't the actual body that most of us possess, it is the one that many strive to achieve. Not just for the physical look, but because it promotes an idea of healthiness and general well being.

I don't find it demeaning, it is just advertising. It has and will always be the same.There are no hidden subliminal messages going on. It isn't trying to be subtle and clever. Advertising is about selling a lifestyle, as in, " Buy our breakfast cereal and you will all jump out of bed at 7am bright eyed and bushy tailed." We know that isn't true, but we are not offended by it.

Good for Bob, sure he saw the funny side of it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM

Nobody should be upset about this - so Dylan is not a saint. Who said he was in the first place? And he's supposed to be responsible for some unwanted advance some ass made when you were strutting around in underwear? What's that? Exactly what did you expect. Talk about naive. Besides, the two scenarios are hardly comparable.

Its not as if he's some priest who just got excommunicated for the 'sins of the father'. He already admitted to having one hand tied to the tight-rope walker and the other - well you know. Besides, he called us all idiots and we loved it... and of course, he was right.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

Little Hawk - that's right on the MONEY. Exactly! History will not judge us well. There is nothing like a Hummer to get my blood boiling when the rest of the world is starving, we're trying to figure out how to write-off one on our tax return - which by the way "Yes, it is easily done", thanks to the administration et al.

And if anything, Dylan has been, and continues to be one of our very few saving graces...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

I was making a general statement about western society, Dianavan. The statement was intended to provoke thought, but not to denigrate each one of us as individuals. It was an indictment of a society, couched in rather dramatic terms. If you spend some time in the Third World, and see how people live, you can't help but be stunned by the contrast and begin to question our highly consumptive lifestyle in North America. And remember, this is not done to preserve "democracy", it's done to sell product. Period.

Given the fact that most people are naturally the product of the culture they are born into, North Americans are on a conscious level pretty innocent in what they do...and they are not bad people. It's the system that is destructive. It's the system I question.

I believe everyone should have medical coverage everywhere, and at no personal cost whatsoever. That is a form of socialism. As for the other things I mentioned, the material luxuries, they are taken for granted in the affluent society. Meanwhile, Rome burns. Wait and see. The World's basket of goodies is getting shorter and shorter in supply, and the middle class in North America is vanishing.

Dylan NEVER set himself up as a "protest singer", other people set him up as one. He simply wrote songs naturally and those songs came out of him at the time. I've read enough about his early life to know that. When he perceived that other people were setting him up as a protest singer, he began to move very much away from that, because he didn't like being cast in such a mould in order to serve various other people's political agendas. The New Left saw him as their spokesman. He wasn't writing songs in order to be their spokesman. The New Left were just as fanatical and knee-jerk in their approach to social issues as the John Birchers were on the other side of the divide. They did and said idiotic things and had a breathtaking arrogance about them. Dylan stepped away from that because it was indeed hypocrisy of a blatant sort, and he didn't feel comfortable as its chosen front man.

The truth lies between the extremes, and it is not found by being a "protest" singer. If you want to see what being a protest singer does to stultify and paralyze a person's mental flexibility and songwriting expression, just study the rather tragic career of Phil Ochs...a young man with the best of intentions who trapped himself forever inside a role that became a self-limiting artistic prison.

You say Dylan's a "hypocrite"? Ah...well, and who is not at times a hypocrite? Who has not said one thing, and later done another? Which of us has been totally consistent to his or her stated ideals all the days of their lives?

What people don't like about Dylan is this: he's his own man, not their man. He's free. Maybe they are not.

Be advised not to take any of what I say about this personally, because I don't know you. I am simply talking about humanity in general, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM

Thanks, LH for being straight with me.

Pedro - Nobody made any advances toward me when I was modelling but I certainly know the difference between interest in the product I was trying to sell and the leer of an older man. Yes, I was naive up to that point.

What you and the others do not seem to understand is that only a woman knows how it feels when someone is leering at you. It means that they do not know you, or respect you and that you are simply an object of their desire. When men do this to younger women, it is a power imbalance and serves only to objectify women. Dylan's presence in the ad would only legitimize a behaviour that most women have been struggling to overcome for years.

I don't expect men to understand this but the least you can do is listen to women when they say it makes them feel uncomfortable. Instead of denying our feelings, you seem to justify (indeed support) an aging rock star who is projecting chauvinism at its best.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM

Guest - you asked me how using a computer is selling out. Can you tell me who made your computer? Where was it made? What kind of parts are in it? Who made it? Why did you buy it? How did you get the money to pay for it? Who is your internet provider? What kind of software are you using? Windows? I would be shocked if you have a PC that has not been touched by a corporation, which you have supported by purchasing and using it.

Of course I've sold out! Being part of a system does not mean you lose your values.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM

Little Hawk and Ron (and other thread Dylan sycophants), you are using disingenuous tactics here, trying to "win" what you perceive is either argument or debate (both are valid).

Trying to suggest that Dylan is not a hypocrite because we are all hypocrites, or that Dylan is not a sell out because we are all sell outs, is fallacious thinking as well.

But I'm done with this thread, as it keeps getting dumber and dumber with every damn post.

I leave it to you Dylan worshippers.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM

Er, I probably should have my head examined for contributing this, but you'll never guess what I just got in my email:

"Get a Free Bob Dylan CD with Any Purchase Now, Details Inside"

(inside)FREE CD WITH ANY PURCHASE NOW through 3AMEST on April 11, 2004 while supplies last. Bob Dylan's Love Sick, a Victoria's Secret exclusive. Enter offer code DYLANCD. Details below.

Honest. I'm on their mailing list because my 40+ year old wife buys her things at VS and, until she got a laptop for her birthday and went internet wild, I used to order for her.

So this is what it's all about. Cross promotion.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:44 AM

Sorry you feel that way guest. It is easy for you to make your own definition of "sellout" and then dismiss other arguements.   

I never claimed to be a Dylan "worshipper". I admire his music, but my life does not rise or set with his words or lifestyle. I simply accept him as a good writer who has the same flaws as we all do. I do not put him on a pedestal or hold him up to MY ideals of what he should be doing, which it seems that you do.   I do not make assumptions, which you have, and if I learned anything from the flawed generation that Dylan came from it is that people should be allowed to follow their own path.   "Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,van
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:27 AM

Could it be that he'th jutht thtill fond of thongth.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:37 AM

Dianavan;
Maybe I misinterpreted your message where you seemed to support your argument by saying that when you once modeled underwear and in the course a business lunch there were unwanted advances... are these two unrelated events? It didn't come across to me that way and I just re read it and it frankly still does not. If it was so, then your modeling of underwear, per se, had nothing to do with the other (the chauvinistic advances), so I don't get to how the tale(s) relates to the Victoria's Secret ad. I do however regret the rather crude way I came across in response to your comments in general - so I apologize for that. Certainly these things do happen all the time and it is not cool when it is done the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. But there is a question of where the line is drawn between appropriateness and blatant chauvinism (or much worse) - keeping in mind that this kind of communication IS fundamental to all human sexual encounters - and mistakes and miscalculations, even under the best of intentions, are inevitable. I think that is what this discussion is primarily about. We all have an opinion. And I happen to think the ad is done in reasonably good taste - esp. when I compare it to much of the media stuff (MTV videos for example... but any of us could go on citing better (i.e., worse) examples...

And I also don't see how Dylan has perpetuated something that's necessarily bad here - people make of it what each individual would anyway. There would merely be some other excuse to fill the gap... I think that those who see Dylan as 'selling out', well that's just their own perception based on THEIR highly distorted expectations of him. It's their thing not his.

And by the way, with only two notable exceptions (that I can think of off hand) in his post 1964 career, the Dylan protest singer thing is basically a typecast (I find myself again agreeing with Little Hawk here)... Listen (again) to MY BACK PAGES - he told everybody he was hanging up on that then and there. The FANaticS just wouldn't hear of it... any pedestal they perceive he's now fallen from is only within there own minds because they will not let his short lived protest song singing career go.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM

Dianavan and others -
Thats it, isn't it? - its the "the leer of an older man" -- that's what has so many of us disturbed! So ya think HE looks "creepy"???

But if he was younger and more visually appealing - saaayyyyy, Ted Bundy for example, wweeellllll, then that would be OK...

Think about that.

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Here are the lyrics of "My Back Pages", released in 1964, a year the height of Dylan's "protest song" period in 1963. His message is obvious: "I was naive and simplistic. I thought I could change the world with a handful of angry songs. I'm not doing that anymore, no matter how much you people want me to. I'm not writing that stuff anymore to meet your requirements or expectations. I am gonna change myself instead, from the inside out."

My Back Pages

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Copyright © 1964; renewed 1992 Special Rider Music


For people to hear the original recordings of those protest songs and imagine that he didn't mean them at the time is to indicate that those people are either partially deaf or entirely cynical. He was performing probably 200 or more times a year, and sang those songs hundreds of times. In doing so, he moved through the feelings that brought forth those songs. He processed those feelings rapidly, and reached a point where his viewpoint on them shifted to a new viewpoint. Then he had new things to say. That's what happens when a person is open to change. You process stuff till you fully understand your place in it fully, and then you move on, unless you're too rigid a personality to be willing to ever change.

As regards the Victoria's Secret ad...or any such ad...I fully understand why people would have objections to such ads and would feel that they objectify and trivialize women. No problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

LH: I'd carry that one step further, which I think puts me in dianavan's ballpark: I think ads like that trivialize all of us. There is someone out there who figures we are stupid enough to be sucked in by the ad and buy the stuff VS sells because of the ad. That is a scary thought.

I always loved the song above by the way. I first heard it while living in Brooklyn--it was 'hot off the press'. Loved it then and I love it now.

To be disgusted by commercials of this nature--the T and A stuff, father a dsughter. Then, watch some shithead give her the look. That is what women feel when people size 'em up for the sack while they walk down the street. I will never know exactly how dianavan said she felt, but I think I know it wasn't very good.

Final remark from me: Dylan should have refused.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

Yes indeed, Bruce. Ads do trivialize all of us. The thing that most annoys me about this culture on a daily basis is the f**king advertising everywhere...specially on radio and TV. As a result, I have given up listening to or watching commercial radio and TV almost entirely. And yes, women are constantly demeaned by the commercial culture...and so are men!

You're probably right that Dylan should not have done this ad. But I can live with him doing it, because I greatly appreciate all that he has done in song. He contributed a great deal to my life.

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

I thought we got kicked off the internet for Little Hawks publishing of MY BACK PAGES. Kidding, guess their server was down...

Folks this has been interesting... I'll come back here sometime and we try to help save the world and mull over the Dylan riddle or whatever. But the fact is, we are stuck with this system. And all of us line our wallets directly or indirectly with the results of advertising... That doesn't mean we like it, or that we're hypocrites. It's bigger than us and its bigger than Dylan. And sex in advertising is never going to go away in the foreseeable future. And people will always checkout each other. That's how it works. Period!

Dylan is getting smeared in the media for this thing... Every writer with an axe to grind is saying the same thing - SELL OUT. Jeez – you'd think these pro writers could try to be a little more original than that. I say that's complete bullshit. Those that actually believe that are completely naive. He is the last person that needs to do this to further his career or make money. Why he did it only he knows. But my guess is he did it "just because". Dylan doesn't need a reason and he certainly doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. He'll be remembered when the internet seems like Gutenberg's press to us. And this incident will just be a curious footnote in the Bio of an eccentric genius… Best wishes to all...

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

Very well put Guest!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:23 PM

Pedro - I don't care if a man is young or old, when he leers he is creepy. Would you like it if a man leered at you?

To the rest of you - I like Dylan's music too. Its part of my life and will always be part of my collection. I've never idolized the guy but thought he would have better things to do than appear in a t.v. ad. Makes me wonder why he thinks, after all these years, he has to advertise at all. He has a pretty loyal following and you'd think that he, of all people, would want his music to stand on his own. Why the cheap tricks?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM

I honestly think it's a joke of some kind, Dianavan. He has a perverse sense of humour. Either that, or he just did it on a whim...and that could be again because of his perverse sense of humour.

He does really odd things from time to time. When he showed up in England in '65 to meet the press he was carrying an enormous lightbulb and wearing a top hat. The light bulb was as big as a pumpkin. God knows where he got it. They asked him if he had a particular message for people, and he said, "Always keep a good head and carry a lightbulb."

Why did he do it? Probably because he was just sick and tired of being asked to define the meaning of other people's lives for them... :-)

His interviews with the press were bizarre in '65 and '66. If he was in a good mood, they were hysterically funny. If he wasn't, they were sarcastic and very brief. He was completely disillusioned with the press, with the same questions he'd already heard 1,000 times before, and the whole thing, and he put them on ruthlessly. Sometimes they just wrote it all down faithfully, and duly reported it. He must've wondered just how far he could go before they would snap out of their professional daze and do something DIFFERENT

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:08 AM

Ok Dianavan I'll answer that question because it's addressed to me (but than I really do have to go - I have a long trip starting next a.m.)…

No, I do not like it when stupid pricks - men or women leer at me. I walked point in Vietnam in 1969-1970 and I've been leered at by guys with AK-47's, RPG's, you name it. The average life expectancy of a pointman was approximately 3 weeks and I did for 7 months, then I 'retired' to carrying a radio for the rest of my tour. When I got back I remember a blonde airline attendant at SFO leering at me with a kind of hate that was breath taking to behold. Then in the insuring years, I kind of dropped out of society and I experienced every kind of hateful dumb fucker look you can imagine...

I got to the point of near suicide and the only thing that made any sense to me was Dylan's Idiot Wind. He saved my life with that one piece.

And that's why I don't like it when people see this as some kind of glorious opportunity to judge Dylan... and thereby bolster their own pulverized egos...

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:17 AM

Whew! Well, that certainly says it all for me...

I'm glad you made it back, Pedro. Vaya con Dios.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:57 AM

Hey Pedro --

That was one beautiful letter,, Pedro. Thanks for writing it.

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:44 AM

Hey, Pedro - Glad you came through it as well as you have. I know about the radio men in Vietnam - first target, right? I'm also aware of what you guys had to face when you came home. My brother, a boyfriend and my ex-husband had to deal with it. I went through it with them. It was a lonely road to walk. Glad Dylan was there for you.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM

DV:

Guess you've come through a number of strange things yourself, and survived.

Also a good thing! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

...and after all is said and done, as Somerset Maugham intimated in his fine book "The Razor's Edge", it just doesn't matter--. That's especially true of this thread.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:20 AM

Art - the next time you stub your toe or poke yourself in the eye, which I'm sure you do on a regular basis, tell yourself "it just doesn't matter". And if you find it matters, then this matters too. If NOTHING matters, then contrary to your last line, everything is (equally) of ZERO importance, so this thread can be of no less consequence than any other. I do believe Somerset was eluding to something that is well beyond your intellect. Keep trying though, it NEVER hurts to try.

Does your mommy know you're staying up this late?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:12 AM

No, Guest, he was alluding to it. If he was eluding it he would have avoided the subject entirely. :-)

The thing is, life is full of paradox. You can say "nothing matters", and from a certain perspective that's true. Or...you can say "everything matters", and that is just as true from another perspective. Either way works just fine. That's why we are free beings in a free universe. You've got free will...if you're willing to use it.

Know'm'sayin'?

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. HA!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:43 PM

But it can become energy. In this case useless energy, but energy none the less.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:46 PM

But, that does not matter. HA!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

Whether it's useless or not is paradoxical too, Strick. It gave you a useful opportunity to demonstrate your innate superiority to people who engage in this sort of discussion. :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

LH - I am impressed by your stalwort defence of Dylan, as he came under the ill-informed attacks of nameless Guests.

Frankly, Dylan can do anything he wants, without affecting his popularity (and probably raising VS's), because he is himself. And his popularity is from people of all ages.

And the songs he wrote in the 60s, 70s and 80s remain just as meaningful today.

I haven't seen the advert yet, but I figure my time'll be better spent if I go listen to "Blood on the Tracks"...

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:43 PM

No question about that.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 05:37 PM

"Whether it's useless or not is paradoxical too, Strick. It gave you a useful opportunity to demonstrate your innate superiority to people who engage in this sort of discussion."

I'm often pompus, even contemptuous, but I've never considered myself superior.

I did have a horse in this race anyway. It was only an ad on TV no matter who was in it.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:18 PM

I think I've got it! One of two things: either Bob is working on a revision of one of his old songs, or Victoria's Secret is coming out with a new line of bras. Maybe both!

Boobs of Spanish Leather!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

That's cool with me, Strick. Sounds like we're walking down the same path, you and me...even if we are sometimes on opposite sides of the pavement.

I tend to diverge into pomposity and contempt on occasion too... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

Yeah, when it comes down to it, we're all a little 'angelic'...Me, I'm always up in the air and harping about something....

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,brit
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

i was shocked at first to see dylan in victoria's secret ad.. but he's 62 now.. hes got money, and hes had a huge career. The guy's a legend. one ad.. who gives a shit. Though, yes, i think his staring is a bit creepy..

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,gobi
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:56 AM

well, well. I haven't seen the ad but I believe Bob was leering at the young lady in lingerie and spikes, flashing through Venice, as he sang "I'm sick of love" because, yes, a girl in lingerie is attractive, no matter what age you are. Most of us older guys don't leer, but we appreciate in silence. Bob might be recognizing this and gives the sneer while singing the song, to undermine the whole Victoria's Secret thing..dressing young, middle and older aged women in underwear designed to attract and to inspire lustful response. I suppose that's ok, if the response is between lover and loved, but when you watch the ads for Victoria's on tv and you're an older guy, and you know that the times have changed and you're never going to be with a woman that beautiful ever again, then you get sick of love, sick of the way it is presented, sick of the way our culture accents the female form to sell products. I'm sick of that kind of love, too. What is it in this world that makes women want to attract and then get upset when they attract indiscriminately? I mean, would everyone be ok with the ad if it were the model and Ben Affleck? Old men aren't dead but they do know how to behave and they do get sick of having near naked women thrust before them when they are reclining in a rocker for another quiet night at home. It's Victoria's Secrets that is perpetuating the crime.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 08:28 AM

"What is it in this world that makes women want to attract and then get upset when they attract indiscriminately?"

What is it that makes some men and women think that Victoria's Secrets products are something most women want? It isn't.

What is it that makes some men and women think that most women, whatever their age, want sexual attention beyond the mating years of high school and the early 20s?

What is it that makes some men and women think that most women don't feel demeaned by this sort of attention, in spite of the pornographic fashion industry and the male pop stars that promote themselves through it?

"It's Victoria's Secrets that is perpetuating the crime."

And in this case, Bob Dylan is their accomplice. If it were Ben Affleck instead, it would be Ben Affleck who would be the accomplice.

Not all of us come from "it's just a commercial, no big deal" school of non-critical thought.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

On the contrary, "no big deal" is full of critical thinking. Just a response to more rational priorities.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:38 PM

Who'd have thought this would live to 300?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

I think it's a proud testament to Bob's staying power that this thread has reached 300 posts... :-)

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Clay
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 02:09 AM

Next thing you know, they'll bring back legit cigarette commercials.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:11 PM

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:12 PM

*ALL* kinds of wrong.

That is all.

D.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Excuse my poor english (i´m an european fan)
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:44 PM

I´ve seen it (the commercial) from the Pyrenees, (Basque Country, Europe).. and must say that there´s nothing about "pedophile pervs"... that sounds absolutely priest-wannabe.
When I was 19 i was.... normal. Didn´t live in Winnie The Pooh's world.
Well, maybe it´s because i´m not a republican guy from Texas, or maybe it´s because i do prefer good real music on tv commercials (with good sense of humour) than watching telepreachers :-D

Well Done, Bob! it´s much more insane to sell guns! pants and thongs must be pretty things for God, Allah, Budda and Elvis!!

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:13 PM

Only 2500 more posts or so to go to equal that "Mother" thread.

Sorry, euro fan Guest, republican guy from Texas thought the commercial was no big deal, too.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:05 AM

This thread has amazing endurance.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

As does Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:35 AM

What's next then, Viagra ads to "I will be released"? "Knocking on Heaven's Door"?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM

Good idea Strick - Hey, the possibilities now seem endless. Though I think KNOCKIN' may do better for Century21 (but with the disclaimer "don't go mistaking paradise for that home across the road")...

Here's mine; for a Vegas Vacation ad...with a twist (pun intended).

WITH YOUR hotel SHEETS LIKE METAL,
AND YOUR BELTs (free drinks & much, much more!!!) LIKE LACE...
AND YOUR DECK OF CARDS,
MISSING THE JACK AND THE ACE...

*Vegas spokesperson cuts in "just kidding, just kidding!!!"

AND YOUR bargain BASEMENT CLOTHES,
AND YOUR HOLLOW FACE...

*pan to Dylan's sly smile - a 'you really are going to lose ya know' creepy leer...

WHO AMONG THEM, COULD THINK..........

*finally, pan to a group of friendly pit bosses and blackjack dealers smiling and waving to everyone.

THEY COULD OUTGUESS YOU???...

I believe Dylan could have a big future ahead of him. He could rise to the realm of the Rat Pack... But I hope not.


P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,love sick
Date: 03 May 04 - 03:17 PM

i'll close my eye's and i wonder
if everything is as hollow as it seems

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 03 May 04 - 04:56 PM

Love sick.... Unfortunately, I think it is so. God how that line blew me away. I'd gone out and bought the album(CD)in a depressed haze - desperately hoping for some kind of inspiration - but when I heard that, well he just summed-up, in one fowl swoop, how I'd been feeling for a good while but couldn't come close to verbalizing. Before hearing it I'd thought it was just me...unspeakable and uncommunicatable. It takes a fearless person to lay it all out like he does. After listening to the album though, I felt even worse and thereafter I'd only play it when I was dead drunk and therefore brave enough. Now I don't drink and I don't listen to it. It's too negative. But what a line.

Pedro.

I hope someone else posts - I'm not trying to be the last. I don't want to be - Little Hawk. Are you there. Want the honors?

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 May 04 - 05:21 PM

Yeah, I'm here. I'm always one or two steps to the left when Bob is around...

He has said himself that he never listens to his recordings, and that they are just like a snapshot. They're a collection of musical moments that happened on one day or one several days. Every time you play the song it's different.

"Time Out of Mind" was a pretty heavy album, but it was just a momentary snapshot, not an all-time admission of despair.

You want some inspiration, read the amazing interview with Bob in the L.A. Times recently, on this thread...

Dylan in the LA Times

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,love sick
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:11 AM

only a fool in here would think he's got anything to prove

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:09 PM

"even the butler, he's got something to pro-ove,
and you ask why I don't live here?
Honey, how come you don't move?"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:30 PM

I didn't say I was looking for something inspiring Little Hawk. I was acknowledging the line and then talking about something that happened when the album was released years ago... although, now I wish I hadn't. And any idiot that listens understands what the song's about. He's not feeling good at the time - it's not something different everytime either. That's for HWY61 period stuff. Maybe you should read the artical a little closer. This is no snap-shot (unless you always think in terms of eons). These are period songs. They brew for a long time. He hasn't wipping out songs left and right then as now. Look at the duration between releases.

The reason I asked you if you wanted the honors, that was a joke - because of your last submitters thread. I was kidding.

The article is interesting but I can't see how you'd find it inspiring. It is straight forward - Dylan's world according to Dylan. He's a bit callous in one place, pompous in another, but overall it shows the man has a lot of modesty too. The meditation bit I found almost hilarious – he's still a good jester - I think he put one over the interviewer. It is a good piece. That's all...

P

Love Sick – everyone has something to prove – it is a competitive existence. We can't help it. It's in our genes. We are all fools in that respect.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:04 PM

"If anyone out there has an original thought I could use it right now"

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 May 04 - 02:09 PM

"Ah, well...some babies never learn."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:36 PM

OK, I can't resist. It's a Dylan quote fest!!!

He's "filled you with self-confidence, after poisoning you with words"

Ain't this nice (nice and stupid)?????

*But I like you and I have a lot of respect for you too (my own line) - I know its not as good as Dylan could say it. But we can't All

P

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 05 May 04 - 05:40 PM

-continued
be Dylan.

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,The Wicked Messenger
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:02 PM

"she said, your debutante just knows what you need, but I know what you want..."

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,love sick
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:09 AM

Some things are too terrible to be true
I won't come here no more if it bothers you
The Southern Pacific leaving at nine forty-five
I'm having a hard time believin some people were ever alive

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,desolation row
Date: 14 May 04 - 05:54 AM

Now you would not think to look at him
But he was famous long ago
For playing the electric violin
On Desolation Row

Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 05 - 10:48 AM

Forget about that link. It's useless. Instead, invest in penguins. Do it now! Penguins can only go up. Trust me on this.

"Oooo, Baby! Oooo-eeee! It's that Million Dollar Bash!"