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Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret

GUEST 08 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM
Little Hawk 08 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM
Peace 08 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM
Little Hawk 08 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Pedro 08 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Pedro 08 Apr 04 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,van 08 Apr 04 - 10:27 AM
Peace 08 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Apr 04 - 09:44 AM
Strick 08 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM
GUEST 08 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM
dianavan 07 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Pedro 07 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM
GUEST,Pedro 07 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,earthling 07 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM
dianavan 07 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM
Peace 07 Apr 04 - 08:09 PM
Peace 07 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM
dianavan 07 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,Pedro 07 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 04 - 05:20 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM
Strick 07 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,me 07 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Pedro 07 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM
JenEllen 07 Apr 04 - 01:40 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM
JenEllen 07 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM
Rain Dog 07 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM
Peace 07 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM
Peace 07 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Judas Priest 07 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM
Amos 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM
Peace 07 Apr 04 - 10:10 AM
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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

I thought we got kicked off the internet for Little Hawks publishing of MY BACK PAGES. Kidding, guess their server was down...

Folks this has been interesting... I'll come back here sometime and we try to help save the world and mull over the Dylan riddle or whatever. But the fact is, we are stuck with this system. And all of us line our wallets directly or indirectly with the results of advertising... That doesn't mean we like it, or that we're hypocrites. It's bigger than us and its bigger than Dylan. And sex in advertising is never going to go away in the foreseeable future. And people will always checkout each other. That's how it works. Period!

Dylan is getting smeared in the media for this thing... Every writer with an axe to grind is saying the same thing - SELL OUT. Jeez – you'd think these pro writers could try to be a little more original than that. I say that's complete bullshit. Those that actually believe that are completely naive. He is the last person that needs to do this to further his career or make money. Why he did it only he knows. But my guess is he did it "just because". Dylan doesn't need a reason and he certainly doesn't need me or anyone else defending him. He'll be remembered when the internet seems like Gutenberg's press to us. And this incident will just be a curious footnote in the Bio of an eccentric genius… Best wishes to all...

P


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

Yes indeed, Bruce. Ads do trivialize all of us. The thing that most annoys me about this culture on a daily basis is the f**king advertising everywhere...specially on radio and TV. As a result, I have given up listening to or watching commercial radio and TV almost entirely. And yes, women are constantly demeaned by the commercial culture...and so are men!

You're probably right that Dylan should not have done this ad. But I can live with him doing it, because I greatly appreciate all that he has done in song. He contributed a great deal to my life.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM

LH: I'd carry that one step further, which I think puts me in dianavan's ballpark: I think ads like that trivialize all of us. There is someone out there who figures we are stupid enough to be sucked in by the ad and buy the stuff VS sells because of the ad. That is a scary thought.

I always loved the song above by the way. I first heard it while living in Brooklyn--it was 'hot off the press'. Loved it then and I love it now.

To be disgusted by commercials of this nature--the T and A stuff, father a dsughter. Then, watch some shithead give her the look. That is what women feel when people size 'em up for the sack while they walk down the street. I will never know exactly how dianavan said she felt, but I think I know it wasn't very good.

Final remark from me: Dylan should have refused.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Here are the lyrics of "My Back Pages", released in 1964, a year the height of Dylan's "protest song" period in 1963. His message is obvious: "I was naive and simplistic. I thought I could change the world with a handful of angry songs. I'm not doing that anymore, no matter how much you people want me to. I'm not writing that stuff anymore to meet your requirements or expectations. I am gonna change myself instead, from the inside out."

My Back Pages

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Copyright © 1964; renewed 1992 Special Rider Music


For people to hear the original recordings of those protest songs and imagine that he didn't mean them at the time is to indicate that those people are either partially deaf or entirely cynical. He was performing probably 200 or more times a year, and sang those songs hundreds of times. In doing so, he moved through the feelings that brought forth those songs. He processed those feelings rapidly, and reached a point where his viewpoint on them shifted to a new viewpoint. Then he had new things to say. That's what happens when a person is open to change. You process stuff till you fully understand your place in it fully, and then you move on, unless you're too rigid a personality to be willing to ever change.

As regards the Victoria's Secret ad...or any such ad...I fully understand why people would have objections to such ads and would feel that they objectify and trivialize women. No problem.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM

Dianavan and others -
Thats it, isn't it? - its the "the leer of an older man" -- that's what has so many of us disturbed! So ya think HE looks "creepy"???

But if he was younger and more visually appealing - saaayyyyy, Ted Bundy for example, wweeellllll, then that would be OK...

Think about that.

P


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:37 AM

Dianavan;
Maybe I misinterpreted your message where you seemed to support your argument by saying that when you once modeled underwear and in the course a business lunch there were unwanted advances... are these two unrelated events? It didn't come across to me that way and I just re read it and it frankly still does not. If it was so, then your modeling of underwear, per se, had nothing to do with the other (the chauvinistic advances), so I don't get to how the tale(s) relates to the Victoria's Secret ad. I do however regret the rather crude way I came across in response to your comments in general - so I apologize for that. Certainly these things do happen all the time and it is not cool when it is done the wrong way and for the wrong reasons. But there is a question of where the line is drawn between appropriateness and blatant chauvinism (or much worse) - keeping in mind that this kind of communication IS fundamental to all human sexual encounters - and mistakes and miscalculations, even under the best of intentions, are inevitable. I think that is what this discussion is primarily about. We all have an opinion. And I happen to think the ad is done in reasonably good taste - esp. when I compare it to much of the media stuff (MTV videos for example... but any of us could go on citing better (i.e., worse) examples...

And I also don't see how Dylan has perpetuated something that's necessarily bad here - people make of it what each individual would anyway. There would merely be some other excuse to fill the gap... I think that those who see Dylan as 'selling out', well that's just their own perception based on THEIR highly distorted expectations of him. It's their thing not his.

And by the way, with only two notable exceptions (that I can think of off hand) in his post 1964 career, the Dylan protest singer thing is basically a typecast (I find myself again agreeing with Little Hawk here)... Listen (again) to MY BACK PAGES - he told everybody he was hanging up on that then and there. The FANaticS just wouldn't hear of it... any pedestal they perceive he's now fallen from is only within there own minds because they will not let his short lived protest song singing career go.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,van
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:27 AM

Could it be that he'th jutht thtill fond of thongth.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:18 AM


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:44 AM

Sorry you feel that way guest. It is easy for you to make your own definition of "sellout" and then dismiss other arguements.   

I never claimed to be a Dylan "worshipper". I admire his music, but my life does not rise or set with his words or lifestyle. I simply accept him as a good writer who has the same flaws as we all do. I do not put him on a pedestal or hold him up to MY ideals of what he should be doing, which it seems that you do.   I do not make assumptions, which you have, and if I learned anything from the flawed generation that Dylan came from it is that people should be allowed to follow their own path.   "Don't follow leaders, watch your parking meters."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:36 AM

Er, I probably should have my head examined for contributing this, but you'll never guess what I just got in my email:

"Get a Free Bob Dylan CD with Any Purchase Now, Details Inside"

(inside)FREE CD WITH ANY PURCHASE NOW through 3AMEST on April 11, 2004 while supplies last. Bob Dylan's Love Sick, a Victoria's Secret exclusive. Enter offer code DYLANCD. Details below.

Honest. I'm on their mailing list because my 40+ year old wife buys her things at VS and, until she got a laptop for her birthday and went internet wild, I used to order for her.

So this is what it's all about. Cross promotion.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM

Little Hawk and Ron (and other thread Dylan sycophants), you are using disingenuous tactics here, trying to "win" what you perceive is either argument or debate (both are valid).

Trying to suggest that Dylan is not a hypocrite because we are all hypocrites, or that Dylan is not a sell out because we are all sell outs, is fallacious thinking as well.

But I'm done with this thread, as it keeps getting dumber and dumber with every damn post.

I leave it to you Dylan worshippers.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:43 PM

Guest - you asked me how using a computer is selling out. Can you tell me who made your computer? Where was it made? What kind of parts are in it? Who made it? Why did you buy it? How did you get the money to pay for it? Who is your internet provider? What kind of software are you using? Windows? I would be shocked if you have a PC that has not been touched by a corporation, which you have supported by purchasing and using it.

Of course I've sold out! Being part of a system does not mean you lose your values.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM

Thanks, LH for being straight with me.

Pedro - Nobody made any advances toward me when I was modelling but I certainly know the difference between interest in the product I was trying to sell and the leer of an older man. Yes, I was naive up to that point.

What you and the others do not seem to understand is that only a woman knows how it feels when someone is leering at you. It means that they do not know you, or respect you and that you are simply an object of their desire. When men do this to younger women, it is a power imbalance and serves only to objectify women. Dylan's presence in the ad would only legitimize a behaviour that most women have been struggling to overcome for years.

I don't expect men to understand this but the least you can do is listen to women when they say it makes them feel uncomfortable. Instead of denying our feelings, you seem to justify (indeed support) an aging rock star who is projecting chauvinism at its best.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

I was making a general statement about western society, Dianavan. The statement was intended to provoke thought, but not to denigrate each one of us as individuals. It was an indictment of a society, couched in rather dramatic terms. If you spend some time in the Third World, and see how people live, you can't help but be stunned by the contrast and begin to question our highly consumptive lifestyle in North America. And remember, this is not done to preserve "democracy", it's done to sell product. Period.

Given the fact that most people are naturally the product of the culture they are born into, North Americans are on a conscious level pretty innocent in what they do...and they are not bad people. It's the system that is destructive. It's the system I question.

I believe everyone should have medical coverage everywhere, and at no personal cost whatsoever. That is a form of socialism. As for the other things I mentioned, the material luxuries, they are taken for granted in the affluent society. Meanwhile, Rome burns. Wait and see. The World's basket of goodies is getting shorter and shorter in supply, and the middle class in North America is vanishing.

Dylan NEVER set himself up as a "protest singer", other people set him up as one. He simply wrote songs naturally and those songs came out of him at the time. I've read enough about his early life to know that. When he perceived that other people were setting him up as a protest singer, he began to move very much away from that, because he didn't like being cast in such a mould in order to serve various other people's political agendas. The New Left saw him as their spokesman. He wasn't writing songs in order to be their spokesman. The New Left were just as fanatical and knee-jerk in their approach to social issues as the John Birchers were on the other side of the divide. They did and said idiotic things and had a breathtaking arrogance about them. Dylan stepped away from that because it was indeed hypocrisy of a blatant sort, and he didn't feel comfortable as its chosen front man.

The truth lies between the extremes, and it is not found by being a "protest" singer. If you want to see what being a protest singer does to stultify and paralyze a person's mental flexibility and songwriting expression, just study the rather tragic career of Phil Ochs...a young man with the best of intentions who trapped himself forever inside a role that became a self-limiting artistic prison.

You say Dylan's a "hypocrite"? Ah...well, and who is not at times a hypocrite? Who has not said one thing, and later done another? Which of us has been totally consistent to his or her stated ideals all the days of their lives?

What people don't like about Dylan is this: he's his own man, not their man. He's free. Maybe they are not.

Be advised not to take any of what I say about this personally, because I don't know you. I am simply talking about humanity in general, that's all.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

Little Hawk - that's right on the MONEY. Exactly! History will not judge us well. There is nothing like a Hummer to get my blood boiling when the rest of the world is starving, we're trying to figure out how to write-off one on our tax return - which by the way "Yes, it is easily done", thanks to the administration et al.

And if anything, Dylan has been, and continues to be one of our very few saving graces...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM

Nobody should be upset about this - so Dylan is not a saint. Who said he was in the first place? And he's supposed to be responsible for some unwanted advance some ass made when you were strutting around in underwear? What's that? Exactly what did you expect. Talk about naive. Besides, the two scenarios are hardly comparable.

Its not as if he's some priest who just got excommunicated for the 'sins of the father'. He already admitted to having one hand tied to the tight-rope walker and the other - well you know. Besides, he called us all idiots and we loved it... and of course, he was right.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,earthling
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

Catalogues sell male underwear too. And you don't see a wrinkly, balding, paunchy guy modelling their merchandise? Is that a gross discriminatory stance?

Right or wrong, companies will use the body that makes their product look appealing to the majority of people, whether they are selling perfume, cars, fast food or life insurance.

And even if their idea of 'good' isn't the actual body that most of us possess, it is the one that many strive to achieve. Not just for the physical look, but because it promotes an idea of healthiness and general well being.

I don't find it demeaning, it is just advertising. It has and will always be the same.There are no hidden subliminal messages going on. It isn't trying to be subtle and clever. Advertising is about selling a lifestyle, as in, " Buy our breakfast cereal and you will all jump out of bed at 7am bright eyed and bushy tailed." We know that isn't true, but we are not offended by it.

Good for Bob, sure he saw the funny side of it.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

Speak for yourself, Little Hawk. I have medical coverage and a computer but none of the rest of the stuff on your list. I didn't set myself up as "protest singer" either. Dylan's just another old hypocrite that got rich because we were naive enough to believe him.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM

Well, when you consider that in Cuba a middle-class person earns less than $500 Canadian a year (or $350 US)...and for that they live a nice life with full free medical care, but they get by without an SUV, a computer, surround sound, a two-car garage, 850 CD's, and all our other expensive toys...

We in North America have ALL sold out.

We fiddle while Rome burns. We consume the World's riches at an unprecedented rate and we invade small countries and use the Third World for cheap labour. We are the whores of Babylon. Chew on that.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:09 PM

I got that last line from "Cliches R Us".


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM

If it was a no-name guy, the ad would be another one in a series of ads that use tits and ass to make sales. What's new. Similar stuff happens to guys. Our children cannot live up to the phony crap they are fed by television or magazine commercials. Dylan is, in my opinion, incidental to the 'message'. dianavan has hit on something, but I feel it is too narrow a view, not a wrong view. This is about the marketing of bodies to sell lingerie. Most people can't live up to the image, nor do I think they should try. Maybe what should be done with this type of thing is use it as a method of teaching kids about critical viewing AND critical thinking. Boys AND girls. I am tired of hearing that the only people targeted in adds like this are girl people. Bullshit. Boys get a wrong message also, and they are dragged through the mud, too. Let's broaden the scope a little here, call a spade a shovel, and deal with the real issues, not just the smoke and mirrors.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:56 PM

We don't all sell out Ron, but it sure is clear you have.

Can you explain just how using a computer is "selling out"?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:54 PM

I don't watch much t.v. and haven't seen the ad but I do know that underwear ads are demeaning to women. I know this because when I was a young woman I modelled underwear. It only took one "businessman's lunch" to convince me that they weren't there to buy underwear for their wives.

I don't think Dylan is that innocent or naive to misunderstand what he has done. He knows perfectly well that this would create controversy and, once again, change his image. If thats what he wants to do, fine. He is now another weakling that has caved in to crass commercialism. I don't need to see the ad to make this deduction. I am really disappointed. There's nothing sadder than a fallen hero. Oh well, hubris.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:37 PM

Yeah, they'll say, "You've got a lot of nerve..."


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 07:21 PM

Ron - well put about the computers. Let those who are without sin cast the first Rolling Stones. Besides, I'm not sure what sellin' out even is. But in his career, Dylan has been accused of it so many times, he'd probably actually do it just to check out what its like. Fact is, you firstly have to NEED to sell to "sell out"... other wise you're just doing routine business.

Whenever he passes, I predict there will be "die-hard" fans out here, pun intended, who feel he's just sellin'-out...


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

We all sell out. The fact that we are on computers right now shows that we've sold out.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

Yeah. Exactly.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:20 PM

Bob was simply keeping his word when he agreed to do these. remember the 1965 san francisco press conference? Someone asked, " if you WERE to sell out to commercial interests, which one would it be?" bob's reply...

"ladies garments"

it got a laugh then and it deserves a laugh now. nothing wrong with him doing this, IMO.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

Guest, we all have to look in a mirror sooner or later!!! Don't late his age scare you.

Leering is a great pastime!!!!

I have to admit, his looks in Masked and Anonymous scared me!!!   He looked like hell! (I love strange movies, but that one put me to sleep.) In the Victoria Secret commercial he was cleaned up at least. I like the Vincent Price look!!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Ron - I just had the (kind of) hilarious image of Dylan coming to pick my 19 year old daughter up for a date. "Hey Bob, make sure she's home by midnight and don't let her fly around with wings out there in the foggy marsh!" "By the way, love the Vincent look, really cool man"

Thanks, I needed a good chuckle today...this thread slays me.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:50 PM

Ron - bigoted, i don't really think so. Maybe it isn't dictionary term pedophile but it's like watching a dead man leering from the shadows at a 20 year old girl. Bobby is my all time favorite but man, he is losing it!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Strick
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Two nearly random thoughts since this thread won't die.

1) Went by a maternity store because my wife wanted to look for somethings for my daughter who's expecting. We noticed that have thong underwear for expectant mothers. What's up with that? Surely if anyone deserves comfortable underwear it's an expectant mother.

2) Anyone seen the Dairy Queen they're running near us? Guy with his 2-3 year old boy facing forward in a kid carrier on his chest just bought something neat to eat. The kid wants it but Dad won't let him have it. Kid flicks the heel of his shoe up and Dad drops to his knees in pain. Now there's something we can talk about in an ad -- violence directed at parents by 2 year olds.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,me
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:05 PM

.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:08 PM

True enough, JenEllen, though I have to say this...I attain more grace through my likes than through my dislikes. And that's true of most people.

Pedro - Well said.

"I'll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours"


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Pedro
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

I wanted to see what people are saying about this (so I read some of this and there is some good stuff here - thanks)… It was a very surprising thing at first, to see him doing the ad. I have to admit, I was floored. But why? He is promoting his music in it. That isn't unusual. And the inherent sexually; that's purely the Victoria's Secret side of it – sex sells, what a revelation! And females are buying it - not the least of which are 19'ish year old girls. So what's new? What is different, is having a revered personage – a mysterious and famous icon, a father figure lamenting about love gone wrong, to sell the stuff. That is a very odd strategy at first glance. Yet its precisely the eye catching contrast that Ad folks aim for to stand out in this neon nightmare of a culture. As far as Dylan doing it... he's made a career of doing the unexpected - of recreating his persona just when we might think we've got him nailed (yet again). That's just how he is. But I say AHHH, COME'ON NOW, I know ya know about my debutant! - a 19 year old girl who thinks he's creepy… Oh my god! Really? It's just too unbelievable to fathom. That's all. But [they ALL play on the penny whistle, you can hear them BLOW]… THAT IS hardly surprising and its certainly not the least bit enlightening - she no doubt would make the same assessment of him and his detached glare at his adoring crowds while on stage. And to turn the table a few degrees, 19 year olds in general tend to have the MARKET cornered on delusional (CREEPY) thinking. She needs to get real and take a very long and close look around (and in the mirror). That's all. And unfortunately, in this **** hole of an existence, she inevitably will be given the chance, all too soon, to LEARN what creepiness is and what it is NOT. Her opinion MIGHT then someday become worth something... AND, if she's lucky, she could even come to some decent understanding of his work and to appreciate the gifts he has given to us.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:40 PM

Opinions and prejudices (for and against). Everybody's got 'em. Yeah, LH, and people notice the chip on your shoulder WELL before they see what kind of undies you've got on... *g*


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

Tom Waits would have been WAY scarier than Bob Dylan. :-)

JenEllen's got it right. It's just a "Wow, look at that! Dylan's on TV!" reaction from those of us who happen to like the man...and nothing more than that.

If on the other hand, you don't like him...then it's "Oh, yuck, it's him again! Look at that jerk Dylan selling out on that crass lingerie ad!" I can understand such a reaction from people who already don't like Bob...or who have a rather narrowly defined notion of what is okay for Bob to do and what isn't okay for him to do. Yes, I comprehend what they don't like about the ad.

Opinions and prejudices (for and against). Everybody's got 'em.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

Judas Priest - you can interpret whatever you wish. You gotta be kidding if you read "pedophile" in that commercial. That woman looks like a child to you? Wow. You might also consider looking up the word "pedophile".   

Are you suggesting that someone of Dylan's age only look at people of his demographic?   That is rather bigoted.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: JenEllen
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM

Yeowch, Guest...In with the claws, eh sistuh? I am in no way speaking for the whole of womankind, hence the word "I" and not "WE". Anyone who expects the outside world to be responsible for her sensuality/sexuality/spirituality would problably react much the same way that you did. It's very easy to be judgemental when you rely on outside influences for your own sense of being. It's a stupid commercial, fer crissakes. One in a long line of stupid commercials, I'm sure. What bothers me (personally, note the use of the word "me") is the paranoid way that folks are perceiving this ad. I didn't see any guns held to anyone's heads (where would those girls put them? *G*) so what's wrong with thinking "Hey, at least someone out there can look good in that stuff" or "Wow, Bob's on TV" and letting it go at that? When you allow the little black box to define you, or you buy your undewear because Bob likes it, or your oil becuase Denis Leary said to, or your Hanes because you wanna be like Mike? You've got more problems than simply being put upon by an ill-tamed media.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM

Well this thread has certainly stirred things up.

One of the things that made me smile was the following
"The Dylan connection was established last year when Victoria's Secret creative director Ed Razek sifted through the music of more than 50 singers, from Tom Waits to Luciano Pavarotti, hunting for a tune for an ad featuring a lingerie-clad model with angel wings.

Tom Waits ? The fact that he makes a nice income from suing people who use his music or songs or soundalikes in any type of advert, would tend to exclude him from any future campaign. But if people find Dylan scary,odd or whatever , god knows what they would have made of Waits if he had appeared in the add.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

Also, Ron, there were three 'anonymous' guests on this thread.

1) brucie pissing off the other two. Mine are obvious one-liners, and the guy pointed them out.

2) A regular guy 'catter who for some reason wanted to remain unknown--he just doesn't disguise his writing style well.

3) A regular gal 'catter who doesn't have the courage of her convictions.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM

Judas, I think you need to make some restitution to Frankie Lee.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

It is possible to make comments as a "Guest" and still do it with a made-up name of some kind, such as "Wasted in Wawa" or "smarter than you". That would help a bit, wouldn't it?


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:27 PM

Ron: If the purpose of a no-name guest is to take shots at people while remaining 'friends' with those people under another name--no, sir, I think you are wrong. I am not talking about the opinion; I am talking about the two-faced approach to it. Basically, shit or get off the pot. Sorry, buddy, but that's the way I see it. You know who this is from.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: GUEST,Judas Priest
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

Ron wrote "Guest - I think your daughter needs to get out more if she is reading "pedophile pervert" in that commercial. That is a real stretch to make that connection."


You gotta be kidding Ron - that's EXACTLY how he comes across!!!


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

You have no idea what my definition of a "mature woman" is, nameless one. :-) Let's see...I will try to define a mature woman.

A mature woman is: A woman who is at peace with herself and in charge of herself. She loves herself and she loves life. She is complete in herself and at peace with others. She is sovereign.

Such women are very good people to have around, and society would be lost without them, in my opinion.

I confess that I do not know what this "s" word is that you are referring to. So what is it?

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

Quite right Ron, it is perfectly reasonable for people to post anonymously whenever they feel thisis appropriate. However adding a label to allow fellow mudcatters to distinguish between different people posting as GUEST in no way reduces anonymity, it's just being helpful. And my impression is that the nameless GUEST in question might well think being helpful is a good idea.

This thread has for some time shown signs of moving on from Dylkanology/Dylanolatry/Dylanophobia to a more genernal discussion about sex and sexism in advertising, and stuff like that. Perhaps it's time this was reflected in a shift to a new thread? (Though of course that would probably mean picking up a few extra nameless GUESTS along the way...)


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM

Guest:

It wasn't Henry James that was being invoked, but Henry Miller. A little closer, I reckon.

I dunno what to tell you about agism and sexism; part of it may be cultural, but part of it may just be the louder voice of genes at work in the mysteries of the universe...at least, I sure don't know how they work!

A


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:33 AM

Brucie, I've never been one to approve of anonymous Guests (or trolls), but in this instance I do agree with her (assuming it is a female).   If you read her posts I think you can see reasons why she would wish to remain anonymous and I respect that.

I don't agree with the direction she has taken some of her arguements, but I think we should respect her anonymity in this case.


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Subject: RE: Bob Dylan for Victoria's Secret
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:10 AM

GUEST: You HAVE been one of the more outspoken voices on this thread. A no-name voice. If you believe your opinions, why do you fear signing your name? You are a regular--I wonder about your unwillingness to stand up for what you think, other than under the mantle of anonymity. Seems very strange.

Also, your vitriol has allowed you to believe your own press. Little Hawk has often been vocal concerning 'women's issues'--in support of them--, and he has always had the guts to sign his name. Him I can treat with respect, and I do. You? No, because you don't have respect for yourself and your beliefs.


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