BS: UFOs do not exist!

Subject: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:04 PM

FIRE OFFICERS GUIDE TO DISASTER CONTROL
Chapter 13 - Disaster Control and UFOs
The following excerpt appeared in Fire Officer's Guide to Disaster
Control by William M. Kramer and Charles W. Bahme. It is copyright
(c) 1992 by Fire Engineering Books & Videos. 641 pages; ISBN 0-912212-
26


Below is the text from Chapter 13 of the Fire Officer's Guide to
Disaster Control dealing with none other than UFOs. On the surface,
it might appear to be the author's life-long interest in the subject
of UFOs, but something very much more important is going on here.
This manual is a national guide used by many local fire officials in
disaster planning, and it is also approved by FEMA (Federal Emergency
Management Act). With all of the denial by official military channels
of the reality of UFOs, it surprises us to see that a manual with so
much information would even broach the subject of UFOs in such
an "official" way. Although this chapter is not an "official"
proclamation of UFOs, it serves to show how seriously this subject
may be taken by some in official positions of the government,
including FEMA.

Although the 1942 aerial attack by UFOs is glossed over by many UFO
researchers, it appears to have created quite an impression on the
author of this manual.

As many of you will recall, the Air Force took a considerable amount
of heat from the UFO research community following the closure of
Project Blue Book, with a training manual that was used at the Air
Force Academy, one chapter dealing with UFOs. Following strong
protests, the Air Force ordered the manaul revised to remove this
chapter. This chapter is much like the material below.

http://www.skiesare.demon.co.uk/fireguid.htm

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

I'm a bit lost, Foolestroop, as to the point you're making. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

Very interesting article. I've seen much of this info before, and it's out there for anyone who cares to look. As they say in the article, "For readers who already have made up their minds that there is no such thing as a UFO notwithstanding the overwhelming evidence to the contrary..." there is NO evidence that will prove convincing, short of a direct encounter of their own with such a phenomenon.

That they see it that way is an indication of an emotional preference, not a rational response. I await the postings of such individuals with resignation.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 10:30 PM

I think that UFOs exist, 'cause alien intelligences must need a good laugh now and then.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:08 PM

And this is the place for that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:26 PM

If this is about do they or do they not exist, I see. Of course. The real question is, "Who sent them."

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 11:27 PM

From that article: "By 1974 over a score of astronauts saw and photographed UFOs during their flights beyond the earth's atmosphere.

"Early in the Apollo 11 mission, which culminated in the moon walk, astronauts Neil Armstrong, Edwin Aldrin, and Michael Collins reported sightings of what seemed to be a UFO during the first half of their flight to the lunar surface. There were many more sightings by U.S. and Soviet Astronauts. On November 11,1966, Gemini XII astronauts Jim Lovell and Edwin Aldrin said that they saw four UFOs linked together, and on October 12, 1964, three Russian astronauts aboard Voskod reported that they were surrounded by a "formation of fast-moving disc-shaped objects."(45) "

Any answers? Wolfgang? Anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 12:44 AM

Of course there are no UFO's. Our government has identified them and so therefore, by definition, they are not "Unidentified".

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: weerover
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:27 AM

UFOs do exist. If an object is observed in the sky and not identified, then it is an unidentified flying object. I happen to have seen one, but I make no other claim than that it is a flying object which I have not been able to identify.

wr.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 02:24 AM

Quick segue here- AlaskaMike, is there any chance you'll come to the Alaska Folk Festival next week? Would love to see and hear you again.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:34 AM

Of course UFOs exist, wher do you think jOhn comes from, earth ?
eric

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM

Personally, I don't believe that Life originated on Earth. I think that we're what happened when an intergalactic picnicing group didn't pick up their litter.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

since UFO is by definition an "unidentified Flying Object" I am sure they exist. Whether such UFO's are of terrestrial origin or not is open for debates - but UFO's exist - be sure of it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:45 AM

U.F.O. = Uncontrollable Farting Orifice.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:49 AM

Oh sure, that's what it is by definition...but you know that's not what we mean.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

Yawn
Yawn
ZZZZZZzzzzzz
PP

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

We bore each other mutually on this subject... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 12:07 PM

What ? - up my definition of a U.F.O. ?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 01:33 PM

oh, sure they exist! The reason they are not more widely seen anymore is because Hiram can't build 'em as fast as he could in the 50s & 60s...here is his latest, which will be aloft as soon as he gets the door in the barn enlarged!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

No, I mean Pied Piper bores me. He figures he already knows everything worth knowing about. He is to conventionality what Britney is to fluff.

I think Hiram's efforts to build a flying saucer are really cute. I hope he succeeds in getting airborne at some point. He should look into helium balloons or something.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM

From the looks of it, I think he should look into a good bunch of mash and a solid copper worm.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 07:46 PM

As stated earlier. UFOs exist. If you see a flying object which you cannot identify, be it a weather balloon or a secret test verion of a stealth craft, then it is, to you, a UFO.

Of course, if a spaceship does/will/has appeared in our sky, then that is what is normally accepted as a UFO.

However, in the past, (Such as in the film/radio-prog/book "The War of the Worlds") Mars was seen to emit green beams, the trails of spaceships, which landed on Earth, containing Martians. These, by very definition, are NOT UFOs. They have been identified.

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:17 PM

UFO's DO EXIST!!!!

I saw one. It was in 1972 and I was with a girl by the name of.... nevermind... and we were parkin' (don't ask...) about 1/4 miles form the Potomac River between Great Falls and Lagley, Va and saw a flying saucer. No it weren't danged swaqmp gas. It was a flying saucer. We saw it clearly for at least 15 seconds before tree's blocked our vision. After a few "Wow's" and "Far out's" we left it alone until the floowing day and then compatred notes and each made a drawing of what we remembered seeing and we...

...saw a UFO...

And I'm willing to be strapped to a poligraph of go unner hypnosis at any doubter's expense to prove it''''
\
UFO'S DO EXIST!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM

Polygraph?? Hypnosis? To PROVE something???

That's funnier than the Euphemism thread!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM

You win, Clinton.

I withdraw the offer but, hey...

...UFO'S EXIST...

Wanta bet???

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 08:53 PM

Bobert, if it was near Langley you can bet the CIA was involved somehow.

My brother once tossed an entire case of Ripple into the Potomac from the bank nearest the Pentagon. Maybe what you saw was the Ghost Of Ripple?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

Come on, Rap... Iz been around... I know a bottle of Ripple from a UFO...

Hey, I din't say that the UFO contained green folks... Heck, maybe George Bush, Sr. was driving the flying saucer? Ain't fir me to tell who was drivin' since 1/4 miles is a tad bit far to distinguish between Pappa Bush and a green man... All Iz sayin' is what I saw!

And, BTW, I wish I hadn't. It's much easier being on the "Yeah, sure you did..." side of the equation....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 09:55 PM

Bobert, I ain't denying you saw what you saw. And long about the time you were seeing it, I was fixin' to get married in Silver Spring (1973, actually). I don't think the two are connected, though.

And if it was 1972, my brother was stationed at NSA at Ft. Meade instead of at Ft. Myer, where he tossed the Ripple.

I still betcha the CIA was involved, though.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:12 PM

Okay, Rap, I wasn't gtonna tell you this but now if you promise to keep it a secret then I will...

... but the girl, Lisa (no last name fir obvious reasons) father was an uppity up in the CIA and so like she told him about what we'd seen and like a couple days after it she wouldn't so much as even talk wid me, let on tell me nuthin'. Since then, I'z decided that maybe them UFO's ain't from some far away planet but maybe somethin' that our own government is into.

I donno... All I know, is that I saw the danged thing so close that the following day I drew a piccure of it and before Lisa hooked up with her CIA dad, she said it was exactly what she remembered as well...

Now Clinton says that if the ol' Bobert were to be strapped up to a poloygraph that wouldn't prove nuthin' an' it prolly wouldn't but Iz withdrawin' my withdrawl none the less. Same with the hypnosis stuff.

There is UFO's and I know it...

...and if any Catter wants to put up the $$$ fir the poligraph and hypnosis, I'm game...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM

Bobert:

Nah, I believe you just as you is, pal. There are folks who investigate and tabulate these things, and if you want to contact them, I think Whitley Streiber knows where to get in touch with them. I have no explanations and am buffaloed by the apparent mismatch of -phenomena on this subject.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:33 PM

'buffaloed' ... new verb to me ... I like it ... what does it mean?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 10:43 PM

Well, Amos, then if there ain't no substantial group o' folks who don't know that these UFO's exist then why it it that when you say you saw one then you get a room full o' raised eyebrows? I've told my story, which it ain't, and get the same reaction every time. 'Bout 20 years ago I just figured that I couldn't tell the "event sighting" any more becuase folks immedidiately start talkin' 'bout the medications that I might have come in contact with...

Now, I find that condescending...

Okay, unlike Marion Berry, I has done some drugs, this ain't got nuthin' to do with that any more than my past drug use has with a possibility that I have just created the Madcat community in my mind and that it doesn't exist... Which, of course, it prolly does... I think.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:04 AM

Bobert - You get a room full of raised eyebrows because people are comfortable in their usual opinionated little rut and they don't want to be disturbed. They are also eager to show you that they are smarter and more in the know than you are...a common character flaw of almost all homo sapiens, including me, is this desire to show others that one is smarter and more in the know... :-)

Yes, I have also seen some unusual stuff.

Humility is a very tough challenge. To give serious consideration to something you have never given serious consideration to before...and actually LISTEN to someone else with respect while they tell their unusual story...demands humility.

Anyone got any? I'm working on it by degrees myself.

Humility is not weakness. Quite the contrary. It is only found in people with great inner strength. I've met a handful of such people in my life...probably less than five at this point. Most people are so busy defending their precious little ego and winning precious little victories with it that they wouldn't dream of daring the challenges of humility. Just watch 'em.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Kaleea
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:37 AM

Oh, uh huh, DUH! UFO's Do exhist, cuz Elvis dun tol' me last weekend when he & his little green friends were visiting me. Geez!
But seriously, folks. Speaking of astronauts,
Ebbie----
   a few years back I saw an astronaut on TV who had put together a book of the experiences of himself & other astronauts & cosmonauts re UFO sightings. Anyone ever read the book? Anyone recall the title of it? I never got around to finding it, but would sure like to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:02 AM

I've met so many reliable people at this point who HAVE seen such unidentified craft, including professional airline pilots and military people...that I regard those who categorically deny something they don't themselves have any direct experience with to be as silly as people who DO believe that they were talking to Elvis and his little green friends at Walmart on the weekend.

There are, of course, no such people. But professional scoffers love trotting out such inane fictional examples of superstition in order to ridicule others over UFO's when the subject comes up. That they do so is arrogant in the extreme.

It's as arrogant as Christian missionaries coming to the Americas in the 1500's to "save" (or burn) the poor "heathens"...who also knew about some things that the Christians didn't know about or give any credence to.

- Little Hawk

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:41 AM

LH has the rights of it, Bobert. People will do a LOT to defend the perimeter of their reality, and one of the first things they will do is cast aspersions at foreign ideas -- especially ones which rattle the cage. Nothing rattles the cage more than the notion of visitations from other planets by weirdoes in high speed vehicles. It rattles the whole spectrum -- church, military, academic, scientist -- to the toes.

That's what raises all them eyebrows.

As far as the data itself, though, I honestly don't know what to make of it. Streiber, for example, raises points that look absolutely untenable AND absolutely unassailable in ways as well. Leaves me scratching my head and feeling like free dummy.

"Buffaloed" means sort of stalled, confused, uncertain which way to proceed. Not sure where it comes from but I have known it since a child.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:48 AM

"Buffaloed"? It's a good expression. It may have derived from the way that bison themselves became very confused when shot from a distance by long range guns. They were "buffaloed", and tended to stand around in confusion, not sure which way to proceed. This allowed buffalo hunters to shoot hundreds of them down in a liesurely fashion...for money. It was typical of this idiotic profit-driven civilization we live in. I think it's the people here who are the "weirdos", rushing around on their jetskis and snowmobiles in a useless fashion and ruining the tranquility of nature.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:53 AM

The American HEritage offers:

TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: buf·fa·loed, buf·fa·lo·ing, buf·fa·loes
1. To intimidate, as by a display of confidence or authority: "The board couldn't buffalo the federal courts as it had the Comptroller" (American Banker). 2. To deceive; hoodwink: "Too often . . . job seekers have buffaloed lenders as to their competency and training" (H. Jane Lehman). 3. To confuse; bewilder.

ETYMOLOGY: Italian bufalo or Portuguese or Spanish búfalo, from Late Latin bfalus, from Latin bbalus, antelope, buffalo, from Greek boubalos, perhaps from bous, cow. See gwou- in Appendix I.
WORD HISTORY: The buffalo is so closely associated with the Wild West that one might assume that its name comes from a Native American word, as is the case with the words moose and skunk. In fact, however, buffalo can probably be traced back by way of one or more of the Romance languages through Late and Classical Latin and ultimately to the Greek word boubalos, meaning "an antelope or a buffalo." The buffalo referred to by the Greek and Latin words was of course not the American one but an Old World mammal, such as the water buffalo of southern Asia. Applied to the North American mammal, buffalo is a misnomer, bison being the preferred term. As far as everyday usage is concerned, however, buffalo, first recorded for the American mammal in 1635, is older than bison, first recorded in 1774.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM

If they don't exist, then why do we know about them?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:05 AM

Bruce - Ah, now that is a worthy question! Actually, everything we know about exists...on some level, but not necessarily on a physical level. The moment you know about something it exists...on your own mental level...as a form of active energy called "thought". And thoughts have power.

In the case of UFO's, though, they do appear to exist on a physical level, despite the eagerness of skeptics to discount other people's experiences out of hand.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:27 AM

The notion of UFO's doesn't necessarily rattle the cage of a scientist. Imagine the fame and glory that would come to the first scientist to offer actual physical proof of extraterrestrial life (let alone visitation of us by it). While there certainly are professional scoffers, a true scientist would require physical evidence that UFOs have actually visited Earth. Think about forensics for a moment - it is virtually impossible to enter a room spend any amount of time there, and exit without leaving some physical evidence - a hair, a fiber, a fingerprint.... Although extraterrestrials have been "reported", "viewed", even reportedly interacted with, the physical evidence is still lacking. Believe me I'd love to see it. I am convinced we are not alone in the universe. I hope that I live to see the physical proof of life beyond earth. But, we sure don't have it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

Kaleea--I think Buzz Aldrin may have been the UFO astronaut...*grin*...he sure was ...ummm...'confident' about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:51 AM

I too have had one closeup experience with an unexplained sighting. I don't necessarily make the jump to believing these craft are extra-terrestrial. There are so many things on this earth that we don't know or understand that I'm prepared to consider the idea that this is another of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:56 AM

I have to endorse the scientific approach. I'm perfectly willing to adjust my scepticism if anyone ever produces evidence. Scientific evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

Personally, I've always thought it the height of hubris to think we're the only "intellingent" life forms in a galaxy too big to even count the stars within it.

I read a wonderful book "Childhood's End" by Arthur Clark, which I heartily recommend to one and all. I don't want to spoil the story for those who take my recommendation, but I will say that there was good reason why the aliens in the book didn't show themselves for a long time to the locals...and you'll understand when you read this.

I also have a few theories about why people seem often so quick to dismiss the possiblity of UFOs. I've talked with the daughter of a man who worked on the Blue Book project for many years until it was disbanded. From what she said, the reason for abandoning the project had to do with too MUCH information rather than too little. I think it scared the bejiggers out of a lot of people who could only see the "threat" over the possibilites of what was going on around us.

But this is, as Amos said, a hot topic much like religion and politics. People build their faith on certain structures that feel safe and comfortable to them. What could be more of a loose cannon than something, or someone we may not be able to see, or may not want to communicate with us until they think WE'RE civilized enough??

That they may well have helped themselves to a few specimens to examine doesn't particuarly bother me, in the light of our own research with "inferior" species. It's all pretty relative really. Being a lab rat for some aliens may just be the kind of lesson in humility Little Hawk might promote! I'd think of volunteering, if for no other reason, to ask them if William Shatner is one of ours or one of theirs..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

The whole book? How impressive.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 01:15 PM

Ellenpoly:

Shatner is a lower form of life. WHen he dioes his body is going to be donated toi science so they can study his brain to determine if it reveals the boundary conditions between simian and sapiens.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Damon
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:16 PM

http://www.alienobserver.com/

Try this site for 'evidence'. Check out the face mask on Mars...weird!!

damon

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

Amos:

Shatner is beyond words. Just ask Little Hawk.

Brucie

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

Oh, yeah, that famous Martian face.   Seems like the Christian fundamentalists at NASA bombed it.


For a whole passle of years, pert near as long as I've been able to think about it, I've believed that there are other intelligent beings Out There. Statistically I think that it approaches certainty. But whether or not they've actually come a-visitin' is another story.

I'd say that there's a 50% chance that they have.

I'd like to meet them if they come around again, sit down and chat, have a beer with them, maybe play or listen to a little music. Good way to get to know people, and the mathematics of music should transcend linguistic barriers.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:39 PM

The linguistic barriers are the least of your worries, mate. For one thing, what if their music is in frequency bands down around 10 cycles per hour? And all their folk songs are at least a day long? Or, conversely, if their audio range is geared up to around the frequency of light in EMF, where we wouldn't be able to hear a damn thing, and their brains are fast enough to appreciate aresthetic variations only milliseconds in duration? As for beer, I hate to think what might happen if you give an ET a Budweiser. He might want to pour out the liquid and eat the bottle!! "Mmmmm!! Silicon-based protein!!"


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

"For one thing, what if their music is in frequency bands down around 10 cycles per hour? And all their folk songs are at least a day long?"

Then all my recorded songs will sound like Alvin the Chipmunk to them.

Seriously, if they know we're here, they have to have senses that operate in at least some of our frequencies. Heck, rocks might be intelligent, but we'll never know because their time scale is so much greater than ours. Likewise with any critters we meet from "out there."

(Didja hear about the giant intelligent statue that was found on a planet around a distant star? All instruments recording both life and intelligence, but no one could figure out how to check either as the statue -- which was made of rock -- didn't respond to any stimuli. Finally, in exasperation, a scientist standing in front of the statue exclaimed, "WHY would the Almighty Intelligence that conceived the Universe create an intelligent, living creature such as this and then have it respond to no stimuli at all?"

No one had ever ask a question near the statue before, and it stood, drawing itself up to its full magnificent height, paused, and in a deep voice said, "It wouldn't." And sat down again.

The scientist slapped his forehead and shouted, "OF COURSE! OF COURSE! It only stands to reason!")

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 05:12 PM

If the being poured out the liquid and ate the Budweiser bottle it would prove it was intelligent.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Damon
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:48 PM

This is different. It was only found 3 weeks ago.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:11 PM

UFO, WMD, LOL - I get confused with all these acronyms.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

Regarding the physical evidence...there may be a great deal of it. That doesn't mean that the general public is necessarily going to hear about it. And if a scientist were to be convinced by said physical evidence...or by direct experience (a sighting...a viewin on radar, etc...) that doesn't mean that he is going to tell people about it either...if he has been expressly ordered not to by his superiors.

There is a great deal going on in this world, the physical evidence of which does not get revealed to the general public...and NOT just with regard to UFO's.

Therefore, why would anyone assume that merely because they have not seen physical evidence there must necessarily BE none? There may well be plenty.

Do you really think Big Brother shares all his info with you and me?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:08 PM

I will not deny that evidence, hard physical evidence, might exist. It's just that I, personally, haven't seen it.

With 75% of this planet covered by water the evidence could well be at the bottom of an ocean. If it hit a mountainside it could be buried under tons of rock. Wreckage that is seen might not be recognized for what it is -- can you tell the difference between the wreckage of a twisted, burned out 1930s well-drilling rig and a wrecked jet engine? At first glance? From several hundred feet in the air or going, perhaps, 50 mph along the ground?

Government coverups aren't needed if the evidence isn't accessible or recognized in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 09:08 PM

I know it's not an UFO, but I always wondered how to find out more info about those alleged "batteries" found in the Egyptian tombs...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:33 PM

The "batteries" were found in Bagdad (do a google on "bagdad battery" and you'll get a ton of hits, especially if you spell it correctly which I don't).

The vast, vast, vast majority of scientists do not work for the governement or other "superiors" who can silence them. Scientists in academia generally enjoy (at least for now) the freedom to publish findings without fear of recrimination. I would LOVE to see reliable physical evidence. Anecdotal sightings are not physical evidence, nor are radar blips. How about a fiber that matches nothing known on earth. How about an artifact of any kind. Until there is anything of this sort, I am still eagerly waiting.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 10:35 PM

That's right Rap, but coverups ARE needed if the evidence IS accessible. And I have plenty of reason to believe that it has been blatantly available now on a great many occasions. UFO sightings that are too big and obvious to suppress or ignore will often get local press for a couple of days where they happen. Then you don't hear a peep about it afterward. I wonder why....

And people forget. They start worrying about Iraq, Michael Jackson, or who's going to win the Superbowl...which is the kind of stuff that Big Brother wants them to think about.

My mother saw what certainly appeared to be alien vehicles over the west end of Toronto one day in the late 40's. So did many of her neighbours and hundreds of other people (if not thousands). It was in the Toronto papers for a day or two. And after that? It was forgotten by the media. Soon it was forgotten by most other people as well.

My mother is a person who essentially has very little interest in UFO's by the way, and she seldom thinks about them or discusses them. What she is interested in is world politics. So this was not a case of someone seeing what they were preconditioned to see...it was a case of someone seeing something highly unusual.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM

Well, I'll grant you that the media, print or electronic or whatever, has an attention span just a little bit shy of the half-life of plutonium, yeah. 8-)

I also suspect that most (not all!) journalists wouldn't know what questions to ask OR how to report it if a UFO (or a lot of other things) fell at their feet. What isn't understood is too often shoved off into the little mental corner called "if I don't think about it it didn't happen".

As I said, I'm not denying their existence. I'd just like to see physical proof, like TIA said. Either in the flesh (so to speak) or by solid, irrefutable evidence. God(dess), but that would be exciting!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM

Rapaire:

I hope a whole wedge of them comes down and lifts you right up outta your yard.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:44 PM

Yeah, me too! LOL! It would be exciting all right.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:11 AM

Hey, if it does, PLEASE ask about Shatner...just to be sure?..x..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:33 AM

Here Foolestroupe this should help.
We do not know if there is any other intelligent life in the Universe. Of cause it is not impossible, but we have no way of knowing how likely or unlikely life is.
By definition any Universe must contain at least one intelligent species and we cannot tell whether we are alone or not, until some evidence is found.
Sighting the vast size of the universe as proof is an action of faith not evidence.
If the evolution of intelligent life were ubiquitous then we would expect there to be evidence flooding in to are telescopes, there isn't.
Therefore intelligent life must be much rarer and farther away than commonly believed.
The idea that Organisms from distant stars let alone another Galaxy could travel to Earth in spacecrafts is ridicules.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:00 AM

By definition any Universe must contain at least one intelligent species and we cannot tell whether we are alone or not, until some evidence is found.


PP, why does this come from any known definition of a universe?

Citing -- not sighting -- the number of known clusters, galaxies, stars and such is an exercise in analyzing probability, not faith. Viva la difference.

Given that we hope to travel to distant galaxies ourselves some day, mastering the intricacies of space-warping, why would it be ridiculous to speculate that some other species might have gotten there first? Hell hasn't frozen over yet as far as I know...

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

By definition UFOs do exist .They are flying objects that have not been identified.! Now is that simple or what!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:40 AM

" Now is that simple or what!!!".......no...simplistic. And Nigel Parsons already said it back up there^. *grin*

I trust that in this universe, there are other places where life exists. Probability and all that, as Amos notes. I just don't accept that they are zipping around our skies and kidnapping our neighbors for experiments.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:12 AM

Simple Amos, in order to define something you have to exist
It is impossible to assign a probability to an event occurring more than once if you do not know the probability of it happening once, and we don't
If they've mastered space warping where are they?
Citing not sighting is a collective mistake of my dyslexia and the spell checker lack of incite.

TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM

If you believe that there is intelligent life on Earth (sometimes I have my doubts), then intelligent life has evolved at least once. But I don't think you can argue frequency from one incident.

On the other hand, if you assume that certain conditions must exist before intelligent life can evolve (and I'm not limiting this to oxygen/carbon lifeforms), then we can do a frequency approximation.

One assumption I'd make is that intelligent life must be found on a planetary surface -- other forms, such as ones of pure energy, may exist, but this is MY hypothesis and if you don't like it I'll take my assumptions and so home. Anyway, for physical contact to be survivable such a planet would have to fall within certain boundaries of temperature, atmospheric composition, gravity, and so on. These, too, can be computed.

But I can't think of anything that says that life evolved at different rates. The Universe is n years old, and if life and intelligence evolved at approximately the same time everywhere it could evolve, then all intelligent races would be approximately where we are in the process -- they're not here yet because we're not there yet. Think about that. The implications are staggering -- not in the least being a possible Universal Traffic Jam.

Hmmm...maybe that's what triggers the Big Bang Cycle....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM

That's an interesting way to look at it, Rapaire.

PiedPiper - You say if they've mastered warp speed, where are they? Well...when I saw something back in the late sixties, my answer to that was, "They're here!" Same with a lot of other people. Prior to that I hadn't given it any thought, and didn't believe in them.

That they are not here in very great numbers (or frequency?) is obvious. That they are not invading, taking over, or staying here (I assume...) seems obvious.

This suggests to me a number of possibilities.

1. They don't consider this planet terribly important right now.

2. They have some moral or political reason for not interfering with us.

3. We're too far away to make any major incursion here practical for them.

4. They're too busy with other matters.

5. They're just mildly curious..."just passin' through, folks"

6. They consider us too primitive and dangerous to deal with directly at the present time.

7. and so on, and so on...there are numberless possible reasons really, if you're willing to think about it a little.

8. There is also a possibility that they have mastered interdimensional travel, and can appear/disappear out of a parallel system of reality that we are not even aware of. How? By modulating their molecular frequency through a very wide spectrum of vibration. This would not involve "travelling" as we think of it at all.

Now I know that all sounds unusual to you, right? It sounds unusual to me too. It is only speculation. But remember, most of the things we do now on a daily basis, such as using cell phones, computers, jet planes, etc...would have sounded not just unusual to a person in the 1800's but downright impossible! Yet here they are.

Since I have personally seen what definitely appeared to be alien craft, I have to wonder why and how that could have happened. It's that simple.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:18 PM

Besides, a universe may exist with you outside of it. Especially if your model allows for parallel universes.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM

Right.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM

'life' is almost inevitable, given proper conditions. Carbon plus natural phenomena practically guarantee something will happen....however, intelligent higher life is a much less likely outcome. Evidence shows that we almost didn't make it to this level, due to various natural calamities. What we are now is only a few million or a few thousand (depending on your definition) years old.

If there were a way to place a bet, I'd stake a BIG one on there being other life, and a reasonably large one on there being intelligent life out there. Due to known laws of physics, I'd also risk a good pile on us never meeting them. ('US' meaning confirmed and public, rather than sincere but unproven accounts of individuals)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

Just as, for example, I am probably never going to meet Winona Ryder, eh, Bill? :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 12:41 PM

well, with a little effort and a plan, you 'could' meet Winona, LH.....but don't tell her about the saucers, 'till aftershe learns what a great guy you are! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:24 PM

Why? You think she doesn't believe in stuff like that? :-) You never know, Bill...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:41 PM

no LH, but she is known to be the jealous type - and she might think you love suacers more then her.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

Aww, there's no danger of that, Mario. Still, jealous girls can be very difficult to deal with. They're insecure. Perhaps Winona is best left as a wistful fantasy. She smokes too, and that would be a problem for me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM

I know they exist. As a matter of fact, I was transported through a portal tube and they showed me their gardens. Ha!

I am a seer of them and a believer of them. I have always been fascinated by the old drawings and petroglyphs of ancient times, where you can look at these photos and think nothing else but alien, in my opinion. Take a look here.

Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

Good grief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

Hey, BigPink, you want to tell me what your reference to Charlie Brown has to do with UFO discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 03:03 PM

It's what Charlie utters when he realizes the pointlessness of rationality in fantasyland.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:15 PM

I devoted 20+ years to the research of these UFO phenomena.
Whenever I could I went to the source of the most famous investigators, sites and a myriad of witnesses.
I have my opinions of many of the people in the field and hold only a handful of them in high esteem. The misuse and even abandonment of scientific procedure is rampant and a few charcters that hold themselves out as experts I hold beneath contempt.
I used to guest on UFO radio broadcasts and offer clinical hypnosis sessions to numerous witnesses free of charge.

Where do I stand after all these experiences? I have no proof of entities. I accept the reality of several modes of unidentified craft.
I know more about the subject than the great pioneer Allen Hynek (honored by Speilberg's Close Encounters) but have no more tangible proof than he did.

Like Dr. Mack of Harvard I found there are critics who will condemn even listening to witness' stories. I never had a witness like Walton who had extraneous factors that lent credibility to their experience.
So I am of the belief that all abduction cases I interviewed were caused by a hypnogogic paralysis that is very common among children and very rare but not immpossible for adults.

What I do have however is a conviction that the human mind has a primitive capacity to operate in a 4 dimensional pre cognitive capicity. I also have had the priviledge to see as well as hear a most unusual craft within 50 meters. The sound of the enormous Ufo was audible to the ear as well as a deep conduction of electrical sound within my skeleton.

I have been able to replicate the throbbing sound as well as paint photo quality depictions of several of these cosmic events.

I would conclude that the exploration of this phenomena has been worth all the time I devoted to it. It was all at my own expense without any economic profit although a book may someday be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:32 PM

That's a very interesting post, Donuel. I agree that a great many of the UFO "enthusiasts" or self-appointed experts are cranks. That doesn't change the fact that I have seen a couple of unusual, probably alien vehicles, but I'm just someone with a casual interest in UFO's, I'm not someone who pursues the subject on a full-time basis.

Can you give a bit more description of what you saw? I'd be interested. PM it if you want.

RR - thanks for the interesting link.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:44 PM

"...I have always been fascinated by the old drawings and petroglyphs of ancient times, where you can look at these photos and think nothing else but alien, in my opinion."

if they could fly thru space, why couldn't they draw better? And what were they doing in caves? I suspect that if you met some of our remote ancestors, they would seem alien.

The will to believe is a powerful force.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 06:57 PM

No, Bill, I think the idea is that Earth people drew those markings, not the visiting aliens. Consider that tribal people like the Sioux, the aborgines, and many others have drawn pictographs or simple pictures of white soldiers and explorers, airplanes, ships, etc...and you've got the "picture".

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:42 PM

Thanks for the battery info guys. The last time I heard about them was from the Von Danniken stuff sources - I don't follow the UFO stuff much these days...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:06 PM

I don't like to talk about my UFO experiences any more than I like to share my spiritual experiences but Donuel you have greatly interested me with the description of what you encountered. Sounds similar to my sighting.

I first heard a high-pitched whirring sound. I looked out to the long channel of water between my island and the unoccupied mainland. I saw a whirling disc of light, a few feet above the water travelling at incredibly fast speed down the passage. It was very large! I ran to the beach and looked but saw nothing more. The beach was deserted and so I meanered down to my neighbors place. I asked her if she had ever seen anything strange out on the water and she described exactly what I had seen. We still have no idea what it was or is.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

You are wise not to talk about stuff like that a lot, Dianavan, because you will only be annoyed and scoffed at by certain know-it-all people who show so little respect for your powers of observation (in their attempt to preserve their own chosen view of "reality") that it can really make you angry for the rest of the day if you let it...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:09 AM

I say thanks Dianavan for sharing.

Big Pink Lad- You can fly, you can fly, you can fly.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:14 AM

ok...I see. Supposedly our ancestors drew pictures **OF** visiting aliens. Well....um...I looked at those drawings, and I can't say any of them overwhelm me. One looks like a guy in boat with feathers on his head...and one could be a dancer on 'funny' mushrooms.....but you know me--no imagination...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:34 AM

What the hell? Bill D. You pickin on me too? Imagine that. No let's just imagine that.

Space people came into our existance thousands of years ago.
People back then were blown away by any kind of space flight (unlike what we know of today)and thought of it as a phenomenon of their time and the only way to record it was the way they recorded history. To draw pictures. I cannot discount our history of writing as we know it. Can you?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:52 AM

dianavan: I have seen one, too. Different than what you saw--no noise--but real for all that. However, I'm different from most people in that I don't really give a rat's ass who does or doesn't believe me. (I'm not suggesting you do or don't care what others believe.) I don't expect others will believe me, and that's OK.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:16 AM

I'm just envious of you who have seen one...x..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:34 AM

I checked out these pictures and the Afghani one is clearly a fake the rest I've seen before and believe are genuine.
Do you not consider it just a bit unlikely that beings that evolved in another star-system and capable of interstellar flight would appear to be humanoid and wearing 20th century Human space suits?
TTFN
PP

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: sledge
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

Caveman paintings of ET, I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe Zog should have stayed clear of those funny mushrooms that Ug found in the forest. :-)

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:50 AM

Actually a lot of this kind of cave art can be convincingly explained by assuming the painters were in altered states of consciousness and quite likely due to the indole group of hallucinogens.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

Yeah, Pied Piper, I do regard that as fairly unlikely...but not impossible. Space operations would require any air-breathing creature to wear a close-fitting helmet at times, with a transparent visor. It is possible that the hominid body structure is a more universal form among intelligent creatures in the galaxy than is presently suspected by Earth scientists. It is also possible that those pictographs do not represent astronauts or vehicles at all, but represent something else entirely. I remain curious about them, but draw no absolute conclusions from them.

There is even another possibility...that mystics were able to see visions of future events...and draw pictures of those events. Thus a person 3,000 years ago might have had a vision of 20th century and 21st century helicopters, astronauts, etc...and then drawn a picture of his vision. That, of course, has nothing to do one way or another with visiting aliens in spaceships.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:36 PM

And you don't need hallucinogens to do that, by the way. You just need to be quite good at meditation, contemplation, and quieting the busy mind. Most people in this culture have never succeeded in quieting the busy mind during waking hours, so they wouldn't have had such an experience, in all probability.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 12:41 PM

LH, are you SURE you just don't want to meet William Shatner?...xx..e...;)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM

regarding the cave art: Anyone besides me worked with pre-school children and seen the progression as they learn to draw?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:19 PM

Rustic Rebel...'picking on you'? hmmm...I try not to do that, I was addressing a concept, not a person....I just say what *I* think about the images, and they simply aren't convincing to me. I can 'imagine' lots of things those drawing might represent,(as others above have noted) and lots of reasons why cave dwellers might make them. Why go out on a limb and choose the most exotic explanation? Why is not a simpler explanation more plausible?

It is like "weeping images of the Virgin Mary"...there are other explanations, but none as interesting as what people would LIKE to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 02:11 PM

For more on one "Virgin Mary" image click here

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:55 PM

BPL:

Make sure Bill D gets that Randi link, would ya?? He loves that approach!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:50 PM

'ol Bill found that just fine, Amos-- I didn't know Randi had that on his pages, but I'm not surprised. I am old enuf to have read about weeping statues many times (and images on watertanks, too!)...They are no more amazing than vegetables shaped like rabbits, or faces appearing in wood grain. (Boy, do I see a lot of THOSE!)

"He loves that approach!!" ...well, 'loves' may be a bit extreme. Randi is the extreme other end of the scale from those who make fantastic claims, and it's always interesting to see some of the claims put to the test.

"It all depends on whose Ox is being gored." as the old saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:01 PM

Yeah, that's true, Bill. It depends whose mental "toes" are being stepped on as to how people react to an idea or statement. We're all subjective beings in that sense.

Ellenpoly - I nearly DID meet William Shatner in Toronto around about 1972, when a very good friend of mine sold him a certain illicit substance (of the common, garden-variety sort)! However, the sale occurred through an intermediary, so we sadly did not meet the Great Man face to face. (sigh...) I trust he had a pleasant flight...it was good stuff. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:32 PM

speaking of images...a Google search will send you off for hours! Here's one in a shrub from Australia...Virgin Mary? I guess you see what you want to see. (Being a woodworker who prays ..uh, hopes for wood like this, I'd let a buyer call it anything they like!)

and here's a guy who makes me and James Randi look meek...*grin* calls himeself Stupid Evil Bastard Makes 'interesting' reading though, as he posts all the hate mail he gets.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:01 AM

Wow! Ever cool... Have you got any of Elvis?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:52 AM

Your right Bill. Sorry for coming off as an insane person (of sorts) Of course I see the petroglyphs as a history of chiefs wearing feathers, it's just those other drawings that facinate me.

The way I look at this,
When people ask where are they now,

The aliens used to be revered as gods. People thought they were powerful and reverent. Now we look at them as aliens and only want to try to figure out what the hell they want with us.
Are we going to find out and relate? Yes I think so, as long as our government doesn't try to destroy an incoming.
Wait, maybe that's why they are leary now-a-days. Our people are freaking out and try to stop any incoming. (Ha!)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM

Bill,

Sorry -- I didn't mean to mischaracterize you!! (Misundercharacterize??)

Rustic, lass, you are a wild child and a free spirit but I would never think of you as an insane person!!

Lotsa the best stuff,

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM

nope, LH...since Elvis isn't really dead, no images of him have appeared, but he sometimes wanders into odd 7-11 stores late at night.

I did find one of Jesus in a tree in Milwaukee though.

and also a page ABOUT the ability of humans to see images..especially faces, in natural objects.
   Or, to combine all the ideas, you could read

"Alien Pregnant by Elvis"
Author(s): Esther M. Friesner, Martin H. Greenberg (Editor)
ISBN: 0886776104
Publisher: New American Library (Mm)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:34 PM

Elvis died? Pretty cold way to get the news.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM

That's great Bill, but I don't think it's Jesus. It's one of those Dutch Renaissance painters...can't recall his name at the moment. Either that or it's Golda Meire. Hmmmm...

The available evidence suggests to me that we have been having sporadic visits from interplanetary travellers ever since the most ancient times, but it is only conjecture on my part. It seems quite likely to me, in other words, but that doesn't mean I know it for an absolute fact. I remain quite interested in the subject.

Having actually seen what I am 99% sure were alien vehicles on 2 occasions in the late 60's, however, I am in almost no doubt whatsoever that they are coming here now in modern times...but not in great numbers, and probably not with the intention to stay or invade or anything like that. Why that is, I don't know. There are any number of possible theories that could be advanced.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM

(Well, what'd you expect when you keep yer head in the deep-freeze 24-7??) :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:49 PM

I do hope that insensitive remark was directed to Bruce, and not to me, Amos... :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:07 PM

LH:

I was referring to Bruce's complaint about a cold way to get the news that ELvis died.

The definition of "evidence" in your statement is open to question, I would think.

Your post hadn't shown up yet when I wrote.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

The "evidence" I mention is open to question primarily because the official mainstream of society (the controllers in government, media, the military, and the science community) have, for their own reasons, decided not to officially endorse it through the media.

They're afraid of the possible repercussions, because: "the truth will set you free".

A free people is NOT what the controllers of society want, Amos. They want an obedient army of worker bees and compliant consumers.

Till death do us part.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:53 PM

ETs may have jump started our evolutionary process. UFOs have appeared in art for centuries--I'll dig up the sites and post 'em here. But, that still doesn't convince anyone. We have had over 10000 crop circles appear in the past 25 years, and we still don't find anything odd about that. Nope. Nothing strange going on here!

A friend of mine a few days ago said, "Your IQ only has one way to go: down." Maybe he's right.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:57 PM

oh, brucie...we have DONE crop circles...*grin*.... You think Mudcat has missed ANY of the popular debates?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Little Hawk:

What I mean is that there is a difference between testimonial and evidence. Because of the unplumbed plasticity of the human mind, it is very difficult to resolve a question as far-out as ETs absent some sort of material evidence that can be measured. It is a sorry fact that anyone can believe anything.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:59 PM

Oh. So? What about 'em. Doug and Dave?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM

True, Amos...and there is a difference between physical and documented evidence that is openly presented to the public, and that which is not.

Big difference.

Got a great book on crop circles coming your way, Amos. Tell me what you think after you read it. (I'm not suggesting, however, that crop circles are necessarily caused by UFO's. Aside from the obvious hoaxes, I have no idea what they are caused by, but it's clear that they are not all hoaxes by any means.)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

A couple of thoughts here:

I have NEVER seen a 'figure' of Jesus that looks anything like a man one would expect a Jew from that area and that period of time to look like. Is this conscious pandering or an example of unconscious racism?

Regarding the faces and figures one routinely sees in wood and linoleum and wallpaper stains - doesn't everyone?- it would be interesting to use a magic marker to outline each one. Wouldn't that be a busy scene!

I have written previously in various threads about my own experiences with the unexplained- so, yes, I do believe that there are things out there - and in us, for that matter - that science and the man down the street does not yet have a glimmer of. The fact that people say that it isn't so, even though they carefully explain why it isn't so, is no more convincing than what we already know.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

Whats the difference between those that believe in God and those that believe in UFO's?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

The shape?

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

Their reviews of "The Passion" and "ET"? I don't know. What?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:40 PM

Huh? I don't quite follow your question, Dianavan. I believe in UFO's (alien vehicles?) because I saw some. I believe in God because I FEEL that there is a greater power within everything that I can't see, but that I can sense and perceive the workings of in various ways.

To explain the nature of that God would take some considerable time, and would have little to do with conventional religions, per se.

A UFO is a specific, isolated phenomenon. God is an indwelling intelligence, awareness, force/energy/intention/spirit that is within and around everything...and is the summation and source of everything...according to my view of it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:30 PM

I agree with Amos. Definitely the shape.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Can't get the link to work. If you are interested in UFOs that have been portrayed in old art, google    ufos, art    and click on this site

NIBIRU, PLANET X, ANCIENT ASTRONAUTS, NASA, MARS, EARTH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

well, dianavan didn't ask about the difference between God & UFOs, but in the difference between their believers. I'd guess the question was related to psychology and mindset.

I'd love to know myself why some perfectly reasonable, intelligent people DO believe in various things, while others do not.

(I have some suspicions and ideas, but they are merely conjecture)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:16 PM

I meant the shape of what they believe in....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM

well, if I understand correctly, 'spirit' HAS no shape...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:29 PM

Wlel, Bill, that's a pretty major point you're making there!! How can somethign that exists have no shape? (Unless it is not actually glued in to the spacve-time continuum but exists otherwise...)


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 07:57 PM

Interesting question, 'How can something that exists have no shape? (Unless it is not actually glued in to the space-time continuum but exists otherwise...)'

I've heard that yellow is tubular and gratitude is heavier than air, but I don't know.

Way back when I first started doiog computer graphics, I got to wondering, "Where is the drawiing I just did on the machine?" You can print it out in a number of ways, including color, b&w, sepia,1's and 0's, and typographic characters. And I suppose punch cards. Dot matrix. So where's the original? And what's the original?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

I dunno how something can exist without shape....'taint MY claim..*musing smile*...I just get from folks like Little Hawk the claim that "God" or "spirit" or whatever the **Universal Force of the Universe** is is everywhere at once and somehow pervades all being, without having any particular shape or substance of its own. Perhaps it partakes of shape by pervading entities? (I spent several years learning to talk like that, and never did figure out if anyone really knew what they meant by such terminology!)

Language is fascinating....we can argue all day about things no one has ever seen....(been away 3 minutes on a whim to do a search on the phrase "higher planes of consciousness"...and got 395 hits, of which this was among the first..[I confess, I am sure that if I ever did achieve a "higher plane of consciousness", I'd have to come back down, as I couldn't cope with it]

"''You seek now, within the action of this shift, a new consciousness; to widen your awareness and to hold an objective understanding of HOW you create your reality. You DO create your reality, but much of that doing is veiled from you. You do not allow yourselves, within your singularity of attention, the viewing of how you are creating your reality within the creation of your line of probabilities in every action that you choose. This is the action of this shift, to be objectively aware of your creation of your reality, and therefore allowing you a fuller expression of your creativity and more of free movement through consciousness.''"

--The Elias Digests

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:36 PM

I know people who believe in UFO's with a passion equal to believers in God. The only difference I can see is that God is legitimized by the church. Sort of like:

Whats the difference between an eccentric and a crazy man?

The eccentric has money!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:38 PM

*grin* --yup!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Wow -- Bill -- that is SOOOOOO weird that you were just playing with Google and out of the blue you get the ONE hit you need most to understand!! I mean, like WOW! That is sooooo coool!!

Yeah the lessons in words are a bitch because of the plastivity -- anyone can mold anything in their minds and have it be stunningly real.

The way around this is finidng the lessons in experience instead of words. Good meditation does this, for example.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:41 PM

"Good medication does this, for example."

Amos, truer words were never spoke.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

Brucie:

You had me worried for a minute -- but what I wrote and meant was mediTAtion; changing it to mediCAtion was your idea, man! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:57 PM

Dang, Amos, sorry 'bout that. The quiet spot with green walls and a view of the mountains is with a TA. Got it. The C is the--got it. Man, OK. I'm with you.

Burce

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:21 AM

Bill - "I'd love to know myself why some perfectly reasonable, intelligent people DO believe in various things, while others do not."

Ah. Well, there are as many reasons for that as there are individual people.

Here are some of the more common ones:

1. People tend to believe what their parents and peer group immediately around them believed when they were young...but there are also exceptions to that.

2. Some people tend to believe what their government tells them. Others believe the opposite. This tells you a lot about whom they have confidence in.

3. Some people tend to believe what their church or religious leader tells them. Others don't. The latter tend to leave that church.

4. Most people develop an emotional loyalty to the first thing they believed about any given subject! They are loath to change that loyalty by adopting a different belief, because they have to allow something that is part of them to die in order to do that.

5. Some people's beliefs are changed through an actual experience. That happened to me. I did not believe in alien vehicles at all until I saw what appeared to me to be alien vehicles. This caused me to develop new beliefs.

6. Other people's loyalty to an old belief may be so strong that not even a direct experience invalidating that belief will cause them to alter it!!! This, I would assert, is a mild form of insanity.

And so on...there are thousands of possible reasons why reasonable, intelligent people have divergent beliefs about things.

That goes for anything. Politics, UFO's, life after death, God, telepathy, vaccinations, rap music, you name it.

It is a common mistake to assume that people who don't believe what you believe are stupider or less well-informed than you. Not necessarily so! To realize this is to attain some degree of humility and brotherhood.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:46 AM

Ellenpoly I think you've got the right of it. Height of concete to think we're the only and most intelligent race in the universe. Sad statement if we are!

The funny thing is we all seem to want to see them as variants of our own physiology and their craft as some form we could comprehend. THe fact that we have found life forms that survive by chemosynthesis at the bottom of our oceans near deep sea vents (although evolved from known species to dwell in that ecological niche) lends credence to the hypothesis that other possible life forms are possible. I have also read recently that scientists have found a silicate life form in geothermal springs (about the size of a microbe).

Perhaps they are travelling on the falling stars as has been the basis of many a "B" horror flick. They could also have an extremely long life span as compared to ours or have found a way to suspend their own physiological processes in order to make the trip? Basing your beliefs on what we are capable of being or doing at this precise time is a bad start.

Amos, quite a while back in the thread:

"Shatner is a lower form of life. WHen he dioes his body is going to be donated toi science so they can study his brain to determine if it reveals the boundary conditions between simian and sapiens."

My friend Chongo read that and screamed! He want's you to take it back. He says there's no way Shatner reaches the boundary conditions between sapiens and the higher evolutionary form simians!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:47 AM

I am persuaded, George, that barring meself you may well be the smartest jerk on this forum.


At least, you know all the right lines!! :>))


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

Amos: You could become our new William Shatner when the icon passes.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:43 AM

No way. Shatner will never die.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Brucie:

I am not sure what to make of that idea -- being compared to Shatner is not the compliment you may have intended; and if you didn't, why, let's step outside, buddy! :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:59 AM

"...you get the ONE hit you need most to understand!!"

*bemused, tolerant smile with eyebrows raised here*

Yes, indeed, Amos...I will study those words at length and report back when I have reached the 14th level of Nangapurshta with my internal eye. I suspect this may take awhile, as my internal eye seems to have a cosmic cataract! My Meta-Ophthalmologist says I would do better with a white cane and/or a seeing-eye Seer.

We hopeless cases need all the help we can get! ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:42 PM

I like the idea of Amos being simultaneously the butt of crude, disrespectful humour, and unremitting adulation on Mudcat, but I still don't think he can replace Shatner. No one can fill that belt.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

Bill D: 14th level of Nangapurshta: Would that REALLY be the thirteenth level because elevator shafts don't have a 13th floor--in which case it would then have to be the 14th level? Or am I getting confused here?

Amos: Listen fellow, you have been nominated to become the new William Shatner. When you are honoured in that way, you simply say "Thank you" and accept the accolades with grace and decorum.

Little Hawk: Do NOT piss me off. Amos is a closet Shatner fan. He has never said so in that many words, but my eye has been to Nanga--whatever, and I (eye?) know.

I am thankful to all of you that no one lately has mentioned my virginity. I truly appreciate that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 01:06 PM

WHAT??? STILL?????? I thought I gave that nanny goat very specific directions.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:30 PM

By definition UFOs do exist .They are flying objects that have not been identified.

Several here have used this definition but I disagree. 'UFO', from the very start, has been a misnomer, though this word will not go away. Several explanations for what can give rise to a perception described or recollected as 'UFO' make use neither of objects nor of flying things.

Venus is the number one suspect (e.g., J. Carter's 'UFO'), an object for sure, but 'flying'??
The play of disco lights on clouds is another suspect, neither objects nor flying.
Entoptic phenomena (very remote suspect) are neither objects nor flying and not even 'out there' in the sense of a disco light.
Real objects can be perceived as flying though they are not (autokinetic movement, which can happen if you see a tiny object in front of a big background without stable frame of reference close by, like the sky is; what moves there are your eyes).

That's in short why I consider the use of the above definition as wrong for it excludes some possible explanations.

There are many more possible explanation, all well know. One of many is that there are actually alien crafts visiting us, and I find it very amusing that some people consider others lacking the open mind when all they themselves entertain is one particular of many possible explanations.

LH, the juxtaposition of the two words definitely appeared is priceless.

Whats the difference between those that believe in God and those that believe in UFO's? (dianavan).

That's an interesting question. On an empirical level, these two groups have not much in common. If there is any correlation at all, it is negative; that is (traditional) religious people are even less likely to believe in UFOs than non-religious. (Trad.) Religious based beliefs are negatively related to degree of education, non-religious-based beliefs are unrelated to degree of education, to name just one of many more differences.

I would have loved to cite Massimo Pigliucci here for one obvious similarity, but I do not refind the quote so you have to make do with my clumsy retelling:

For both, the object (object? focus) of their reveration, attention, curiosity is extremely and suspiciously elusive. Both an omnipotent god and (from our present narrow point of view) near-omnipotent alien civilisation visiting that often that roughly 20% of North-Americans report having seen a UFO, could easily demonstrate their power in a way that no further doubt would be possible. Curious that they don't.

As others, I consider it nearly sure that life exists outside of this planet, fairly likely that even intelligent life exists outside of our planet (though not necessarily at the same time), very unlikely that we have been visited even once in time. As for the near continuous (epidemic in the North Americas of the last 50 years) reports of UFOs, I consider them a sure sign of intelligence at work, but not of alien origin. The intelligence at work here is the intelligence between the two ears of the human species.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:54 PM

but wolfgang - though the likely suspects which get "identified" as UFO's (isn't that self-contridictory?) tend not to be objects; or if objects tend not to be flying - they are PERCIEVED as objects that are in flight - thus "Unidentified Flying Object". Whether or not there actually is an object or if that object is flying is irrelevant to that perception though certainly not irrelavent to the question of "visitors".

but that there are unidentified flying objects is fact. That even some of the unidentified flying objects are visiting spacecraft or evidence of non-terrestrial intelligent life is conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM

The small softball sized balls of nebulus light that I watched pass right through two brick walls were very exciting, I actually touched one.

a clever illustrated poem of the esperience...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/balloflight1.jpg



The large resonant electric trobbing of a trianular craft created such an ominous feeling in our bones that my wife and I were struck motionless with a feeling of danger that prevented any attempt to chase after it. It was'nt the size but a sonorous terror that was unlike any other experience. I normally would run out into a horrendous thunderstorm but this was different. There was no static electricity that made hairs stand on end but a feeling of danger none the less.

A man by the name of Michalak did once approach a landed craft and was surprised by small port holes emmitting deep burns in his abdomen.
The wounds persisted for the rest of his life and is supported by numerous hospital photographs.

Intent may be benign but technology has its dangers if its a helicopter rotor or unknown device. These unknown devices are so energetic that they tend to ionize the air around them. The air turns silvery and reflective like a mirage. This is why so many sightings are so fleeting.

One of the only non fiction books of this phenomena is by Paul Hill.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

It definitely appears to me that I have offended your sense of proper English, Wolfgang! :-) Most definitely. May I emphasize that! Extremely, overwhelmingly most definitely, nicht war?

Wenn die meine schlechteste Sünde ist, bin ich ein sehr glücklicher Mann.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Jilly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:28 PM

I believe that ufo's do exist!I have seen one hanging in the sky,everyone said it was a weather baloon but how could it hang there for three hours in broad daylight.
Hundreds of people were watching it.The report in the papers said it could be seen from miles away.A large plane flew under it. The ufo was so large that the plane looked like a toy, very tiny.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:21 PM

don't suppose one of those hundreds of people had a camera with them....?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

It would make absolutely no difference if they did, Bill. Thousands and thousands of excellent photos have been taken of purported UFO's (and some were hoaxes, a great many were not). I saw some of those photos in an issue of Life Magazine (cover story was on recent notable UFO incidents) in the early 70's. Life treated the matter seriously, and treated the photos as the real thing (unexplained flying objects) and not as hoaxes. One of the most interesting photos was over a harbour city in Australia, I think it was Sydney.

You see, Bill, if you live in a mental bell jar and you don't know about these things, then you can easily discount them in a casual sort of way on the rare occasions when someone brings them up.

If you don't live in such a mental bell jar, and you actually bother seriously investigating what's already out there, only the most rank prejudices could cause you to dismiss the evidence out of hand.

I've personally known a great many people (and trustworthy, normal people, including professional pilots) who have seen what could only have been alien vehicles or some other very odd natural phenomenon that we are not familiar with and have no name for. I've personally seen such phenomena. The best guess is: they are intelligently piloted or controlled vehicles, not of human Earthly origin. Another possibility is that they are secret government craft of Earthly origin, but given their capabilities of maneuver that seems much less likely. Besides, the government would not keep exposing such things to public view, they would test them in restricted areas.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

Du bist ein sehr glucklicher Mann in any case, LH. Transcendently so!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:57 PM

well, I'm as normal and trustworthy as the next fellow, LH! I'd LOVE for one of them danged things to buzz me...or better yet, land and let me ask some pointed questions! One time, when I was about 15, I saw a little flash of light seem to zoom by in broad daylight, but it was so fleeting that even then I couldn't be sure it wasn't just a reflection.

Since then, they have carefully avoided coming near me...(guess they knew I'd be a hard case...inside my bell jar & all...)

If they ARE " ...intelligently piloted or controlled vehicles, not of human Earthly origin", it makes me madder, as I was a big sci-fi fan! I WANT them to be real...I'd VOLUNTEER to be abducted! I'd love to have a 'crop circle' in the grass in my front yard.

It seems like they ar so clever, they almost never leave any real evidence, and if they do, the govt. covers it up and hides it. Why, it's enough to make a fellow think 'ol Hiram IS at the bottom of it all!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:03 PM

Photos of UFOs

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:33 PM

some of those are really interesting...I'm ready for one to sit down and be photographed on the ground from 9 different angles...preferably with ME standing next to it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:42 PM

For a great deal of further info and opinion, go here:

Disclosure Project

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:51 PM

For instance, just read this article:

Going Tactical

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:34 PM

I have never gained any tangible evidence from any of the airplanes I have seen pass over head. And thank goodness I have never seen one crash in front of me. Not unless I went to the airport would I find evidence. Likewise there must be bases of some kind to support unusual craft.
Our solar sattilite has taken some fantastic pictures of bizarre looking symetrical looking craft. Perhaps their airport is one of these or on Mars or the dark side of the moon. Undersea earth bases seem remote to me. Still if you want proof you will have to go to their source.

Meanwhile on TV right now Bush just had an extreme senior moment and couldn't say anything for several minutes. First he condemned the questioner for not having been submitted in writing beforehand then he remained tongue tied for 3 minutes. He was lost and embarrassed and apologetic but still could not answer the simple question if his response of war was the best strategy that could be undertaken.
Now he is preaching the almighty and regained his confidnce in sermonesque fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Well, in answer to the thread statement: I believe in the one I saw. How's that?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

You've hit the crux of the matter, Donuel. Physical evidence of a UFO is damned hard to come by unless an alien vehicle crashes in one's own backyard...or you find their staging bases. In the former case, supposing such a crash happened, the civil and military authorities would have your backyard cordoned off pretty damned fast and they would take away all the evidence toot sweet, and tell you some kind of story to shut you up. And the local papers would talk about it for a day or two and then never speak of it again.

In the case of the bases...they are undoubtedly beyond the present reach of our military, and our military is driving horses and buggies and trying to catch Ford Mustangs, comparatively speaking...which is why they don't tell us much about it. They figure they wouldn't look so mighty and omnipotent anymore, and it would invalidate much of our normal political agenda on this planet, which is all about making money and controlling strategic resources.

So any evidence they have (and they have plenty) is kept secret from the public. There's also this quaint notion held by people in high places that the public would "panic" if told. Ha. Some people would panic, but most people would not, they'd be fascinated. The general public is ready for contact, the corrupt leaders of our society are not. They fear the loss of their image and their power. How many elected politicians know about this, I'm not at all sure...maybe only a few, maybe quite a few. But most politicians are just errand boys for the real power brokers who stand behind them unseen.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:37 PM

over & over & over..."The reason we don't see proof of many things is that there is this BIG conspiracy to a)hide evidence of aliens & new power sources, b)suppress science that could TELL us the truth, and c) create secret societies that will continue the conspiracy.

It MUST be true that this is happening because we don't see it! See? The fact that we don't HAVE unlimited, non-polluting power PROVES that it is being suppressed! There must BE a secret conspiracy, because I can't identify any members! UFOs must be aliens who are more advanced than us, or we'd catch them! In fact, the more we don't know and can't prove, the more confident we can be that it is being withheld.

Do I exaggerate the attitude? Maybe a little,... but the 100mpg carburetor was 'being hidden' when I was in high school. Fusion power is being suppressed by the oil companies until the last drop is pumped from Iraq. The Tri-Lateral Commission has been manipulating global politics for years.

Lordy! "The world ain't like it should be, so someone must be keeping all the good stuff from me!"

Who, me? Cynical?...nawwwwwww

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:48 PM

I ain't gonna read the 2 or 3 thousand posts of naw-sayers since OI last offered to take a poligraph on having seen a UFO like real clear so I'll just refresh my offer.

Not only do UFO's exist...

... but they rock!!!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:56 PM

awww..Bobert, a polygraph would tell us you weren't lying, but we already know a gentleman like you wouldn't lie! But a polygraph wouldn't tell us if you had been fooled or confused.

The first UFO that sits down and lets us bang on it will be more convincing to us poor souls who usually get ignored and bypassed by the snooty aliens!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:11 PM

Not necessarily, Bill. A photograph, no matter how good it is, will only tell a committed debunker the following:

1. That is a faked photo.

2. That is a faked photo.

3. That is a faked photo.

4. That is a faked photo.

5. Okay, it's not faked, it's an optical illusion created by a beam of sunlight on the camera lens.

6. Or it's a weather balloon...with a beam coming out of it that is clearly an optical illusion created by sunlight on the camera lens.

7. And those bumps on the bottom are optical illusions created by light and shadow...

8. Forget it! It's just another faked photo. Who do you think you're trying to fool?

You see, Bill, he just doesn't want to know about things he doesn't already know about...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:26 PM

I didn't say 'photo'...I said "lets us bang on it"....fuzzy photos ARE easy to shrug off...a ship perched in Times Square isn't.

You, know...maybe that's part of the aliens 'testing' of us! Let some of us see glimpses and other see nothing, but never a good, close-up look for any, and never a solid, extended visit in a public park....why, it might get us arguing with each other, and they could study human psychology! Perhaps a web site ostensably for other purposes...like 'folk music'....but really run by 'them' and seeded with provocative posts....what an idea, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM

A fascinating notion, Bill. :-) There have been numerous UFO incidents where a very large number of people saw the UFO's, but I'm not going to list them here. I don't have time for that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:04 PM

1954 7 UFOs hovered above the Capitol building in DC for nearlt 30 minutes.

The public investigations and air force representatives were televised.

That was the last time the phenomena got even a modicum of respectable national coverage without cloaking it in a Katy Couric style laugh fest.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM

Bill D -

Ever try to walk up and "bang" on a jet...
You aren't going to get far trying.

Unfortunately the phenomenon is worldwide and some reports a la Roswell tend to give the conspiracy theorists more hints that there is a cover up.

Through several decades of asking, pleading, begging and just plain FOIAing the military, CIA, DIA, NSA and FBI to death, there had been more and more information coming out about the incident. Instead of just keeping their mouths shut they have continued to release new "Final Investigations" which try to explain the incident and all of it's evidenciary items.

TO recap: Army guy tells press "we captured saucer". Different witnesses claim strange metals, little green men, etc. etc.

Gov't Responses: 1. Never happened it was a weather balloon, debris was from a radar reflector (reconstruction was two squares set on point and combined to create a near 3D diamond shape like used today in navigation shapes).
2. Strange metal was foil like used on Hershey bar wrappers (I guess no-one in Roswell had ever had a Hershey's chocolate bar).
3. Strange markings on metal were just pink markings on tape used to hold foil to reflector structure (strange that there was no-one in 40 some odd years of using the stuff that ever made that connection before).
4. More debris than our radar reflector theory covers - we continued such tests for a long time and debris built up (all the tests ended with crashes in the same area.
5. Little Green Men were human dummies from a high altitude parachute test (that didn't occur until six years after Roswell and I guess the witnesses had never seen one of them thar high fangled manakins before (lets not get into the fact that witnesses said "little" and the manakins were six foot tall).

People keep asking and they keep reporting themselves into a smaller corner.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM

As for the astronauts and kosmonauts, you'll find links on
The UFO Skeptic's Page.

Scroll for Oberg's contributions.

I always liked best those people who claimed that the UFOs were in reality human crafts coming from the openings at the poles steered by Nazis who had found a refuge in the hollow earth, a kind of theory unifying the hollow earthers with the Ufologists.

LH, I thought your English was perfect but showed your way of thinking.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

yup- I've seen several documenteries on Roswell...it does make me curious, and I don't doubt that the story has gotten VERY convoluted in 50 years, but there are way too many half-truths and 'almost' evidence for me to say "aha! Now I know exactly what happened!"

You gotta realize, my friends...I am not **DENYING** anything in particular, nor am I accusing anyone of lying. I am a sceptic in the best sense of the concept. I am waiting until The Stealth aircraft used to be VERY secret stuff, but now we see clear pics of them and know what some of those strange sightings were. ANYONE can see them now..(not 'bang' on them of course, but plenty of images that leave no doubt)...unlike 'saucers' and such that are reported in various degrees of clarity. If there are still classified "black" projects zipping about, that might explain some of it, and I wouldn't be surprised....but aliens? We have to make SO many assumptions to seriously believe aliens are HERE....new assumptions about laws of physics and biology especially.

Since we already know that we humans, under various conditions, can see & experience things that seem quite real, but are not caused the way they seem, I simply wait and shrug....Occam's Razor is my guide, and an open mind is my goal.

There is a fine line between an 'open mind' and .....well, I want to say 'gullibility', but that sounds condescending...there must be a word for being 'impressionable' that is not an insult, because I KNOW that honest people have had experiences that moved them and that they can't deny or shrug off. I have had dreams that shook me up, but I will NOT make assumptions about why or what they mean.....

...so...the title of this thread is "UFOs do not exist!" ...that is not my thesis. I just say that there is an awful lot we don't understand about our own experiences yet....and wait....and wait....

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

You just subscribe to a different faith than I do, Wolfgang, and that's why we bug each other so much. Given different circumstances, our roles might be reversed. What I mean is, if you had grown up in a different family...or had had just one sighting of your own, you might share my faith. Had I not had those sightings in the late 60's I might share yours. By such small things are people separated in their understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

It has nothing to do with faith, at least not for me, but it may be a faith for you (you're the expert in that respect).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM

Everyone has faith, whether they call it "faith" or not.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:37 PM

The problem with this thread title is the exclamation mark. It should be a question mark. Of course UFOs exist. They do for me, anyway. I saw one.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 07:42 PM

Go, brucie....

Like me too... Yeah, saw it like real good. I mean, like details. No, I didn't get to ride in it 'er nuthin' but I saw it and so did the lady I was with... Her daddy worked fir the CIA or USID 'er somethin' at the time so a few days after we saw it she said we couldn't be hanging together no more. Danged! She was rite cute. I told her not to tell her dad... Oh well...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:13 PM

Jaysus, Bobert, her dad prob'ly knew she was rite cute!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:02 AM

And that tells you a lot right there, doesn't it, Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:42 AM

Yes, LH - everyone has faith. Even if its faith that the water will still be coming out of the tap or faith that hydro electric power is endless, or that there will always be gas.

My mother had faith in the government at one time.

I remember her saying, "The government wouldn't allow the manufacturers to add anything to our food that was harmful."

But what kind of faith are you talking about? Faith in UFO's?
Just because I saw a UFO doesn't mean I have faith in them. I just saw what I saw. I don't have faith in identified flying objects, either.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:31 AM

Tonight I was tired of programming and spent a little time investigating those photos linked by Amos above, and found some interesting things. I saw that Dr. Steven Greers leads the research of UFO evidences in that site and so I tried to search the web for some references to him.

I've found in this site Seaspower.com

that Dr. Greers also leads an organization which assures to have found the infinite and free source of power and benefit humanity with this device, and that he is a brave fighter against commercial and governmental conspiracies, appart from being a UFO researcher. All for a few million bucks needed for funding the project.

Each time we scratch a little under the surface, some evidence of these Perfectly Identified Persons pops up. The following is part of a radio interview to Dr. Greers.

Sorry, Amos, nothing personal, you know how I appreciate you and how respectful I am towards all Mudcat friends.

Un abrazo,
Andrés (in Buenos Aires)

Transcript of Dr. Steven Greer's Interview
on Coast to Coast AM Radio with Art Bell
December 7/8, 2003


So this is another one of the things that happens with these sort of efforts, is that you get these people surrounded by legal and business people who do everything they can to put a monkey wrench in having the technology brought forward. So the reason I say that this is in a class by itself is because we have been able to see an extraordinary phenomenon with this particular device that we cannot explain as anything but a device that is extracting electromagnetic energy that's usable from the so-called quantum vacuum space around that object. But in reality, because we have not actually taken possession of the machine or the plans to reproduce it, it remains very much in the questionable category.

AB: The claim here is that it extracted essentially zero point energy and turned it into kilowatts you could see.

SG: It wasn't quite kilowatts, maybe it was about half a kilowatt,and this is the machine that we were able to pick up and take outside, plug things into it, inspect it. There was no hidden source of power. It was one of the most extraordinary things I have personally ever seen. Now, that's the good news. The good news is that I'm quite sure that this can be done.

SG: Now, there's another category, and I would say that our group, the Disclosure Project, working with SEAS - and the disclosureproject.org people can look at what we're doing with this and also seaspower.com, our website. But what we have found is that there are about 3 dozen inventors who have devices in mature stages, or less ripe stages of development, and we think that with probably around 10 million dollars in research and development funds, that at least a dozen of those could be brought to commercial viability within a year or two. Unfortunately, they do need that kind of support and that's something we're looking at doing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:23 AM

Little Hawk,

of course everyone has faith including me (see the faith thread for instance), but not everything someone says is faith based.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 08:24 AM

Does anyone else wonder why so many threads end up talking about faith and belief?

Isn't it kind of clear that we all are going to have our own thoughts on the subject, and the chance of changing anyone else's is like spitting into the wind?

Or is it more about trying to make sure what we write is being understood the way we mean it to be? That, too, might often be spitting into the wind.

Kahlil Gibran once wrote (I am paraphrasing here, which is ironic) "We will never understand each other until we reduce our language to 7 words"...

(Care to list your favorite 7?)
xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

This ain't one of them George Carlin questions, is it?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 09:41 AM

Could be, Bobert,if those are your favorites!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:40 AM

Wolfgang & dianavan - Okay. Faith. Yes, everyone has it, "but not everything someone says is faith based." Correct, Wolfgang.

For instance, if dianavan says she saw what she terms a UFO (meaning, I presume, something that she figures was an alien vehicle) then she is not making a statement of faith, she's making a statement based on her memory of an actual experience. Her faith in that case (like everyone's) is in her own powers of observation, and that's perfectly normal.

No, what I meant when I said that everyone has faith was something more like this: Some people have faith in, let's say, the basic authority systems around them in their society, such as...the government, the lawmakers, their teachers, their law enforcement agencies, judges, the official science community, the medical community, etc. And they will usually trust and accept what they hear from those people, specially when they are young.

I had great faith in those authorities when I was young (age 1-18 or 20). Accordingly, I was very conventional, I followed all the rules without question, I was very scientific and logical in my beliefs, respected authority, and I didn't believe in ANYTHING that had not been sanctioned by those authorities. I was a secular agnostic, also...which may or may not go with such a mindset. I did not believe in alien vehicles or anything like that.

I think that Wolfgang may have a form of faith rather similar to what I had at age 17. (this is just an assumption, I may be wrong)

Then I actually saw what I think were alien vehicles, around age 19. That changed my attitude somewhat. I was also beginning to become rebellious against my parents and the other authority structures, and I was listening to music (Dylan) which opened my mind to alternate possibilities. I also began to investigate spiritual matters, and studied a variety of religions and viewpoints.

I ended up in a few years as a person who deeply questioned all forms of authority and regarded them with great scepticism (having seen their fallibility in no uncertain terms), and I have remained sceptical to this day. In fact, the more I find out about our great social authority systems, the more sceptical I become. They have feet of clay, and they lie...usually because money is at stake.

I am equally sceptical of most religious authority systems, by the way. My move into spirituality did not move me into organized religion. I think for myself.

To put it simply, Wolfgang appears to have more faith in the altruism and openness of the scientific community on this planet than I do! :-) I think that there could be very strong pressures emanating from very powerful quarters which restrict the flow of scientific information to the public, censor it, and ensure that science remains silent on certain other issues which it might well be advised not to remain silent on.

And I think there's a coverup regarding alien visitors to this planet...for various political and "security" reasons. The scientific community cannot properly do its work without major funding. If that funding is withheld unless scientists do what they are told (or asked) to do...then they will do what they are told (or asked) to do, won't they? And if the media is controlled by a few very wealthy and powerful interests, then those few interests can control the flow of information to the public...and they do, for the most part.

Thus info about UFO's which is not sanctioned by those wealthy controllers remains marginalized (or ridiculed), and is not noticed or thought of by most people most of the time.

Thus conformity of thought is maintained in the general population.

And yet, many of us have personally seen those vehicles.

I do not trust "Daddy" anymore. I trust my own powers of observation and my own personal experience.

"If you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself" - Bob Dylan

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:46 AM

McGraw has Faith.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 10:52 AM

What??? And what about Faith Hill, Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:02 AM

..whio is william shatner, anyway? and what does he have to do with UFOs?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:19 AM

Little Hawk,

when I was 17 I believed in flying saucers and ancient astronauts.

BTW, I'm very different from you at 17. Authorities have to be questioned permanently and not to be respected from a position of faith. Some may gain my respect by the way they write and argue. Science for me is fascinating for what authorities write is permanently under question.

Science is not a set of to be learned results (though boring teacher can manage to present it this way), but a method of questioning. When I teach research methods, each week the students get the task to think about results and to come up with many possible explanations for the result.

Example 1: People who have learned to swim early in life earn more money later

Example 2: The incidence of Schizophrenia is related to social status in the USA, but unrelated in Germany.

Example 3: People in towns have a higher spontaneous walking speed than people in villages

And many more of those. You get the idea. I do not care at all who gets the correct explanation (in some examples I don't even know what the correct explanation is), good is the one who gets many different possible explanations and can argue for (or against) them. Often I get surprised by an explanation I had not yet thought of.

The heart of the scientific method is to doubt and to try to find alternative theories or explanations. And then of course to put them to test. And do it well, for others will find loopholes in your argumentation or experimental setup.

Your description of science is so far from my science, it is not even a parody.

The idea that scientists could for long be persuaded to cover up, is ridiculous. Not because individual scientist are without fail. They are on the average as jealous, fraudulent, obstinate, self-serving as people in other professions are. But because self-correcting procedures are built in. If you spot an error in your colleague's argument you publish that. If you find data inconsistent with a theory, you publish. If the theory is famous (and wrong) you will get famous too (and get perhaps the Nobel prize). On the long run, nothing which is wrong can stand for a long time. Someone will point out the inconsistencies sooner or later. For the fame of it and for the money accompanying the fame.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:35 AM

Wolfgang

Many scientists are afraid of ridicule, and would not risk their reputations by studying certain areas. how scientific is that?

I briefly met a man who worked as a nuclear physicist in the states. he conducted a number of FOI searches of various sensitive government areas and was one of the original Roswell investigators. Stanton Friedman wrote a book: 'TOP SECRET/MAJIC', based on a US govt document leaked in 1984. This book includes documents accessed under FOI which show that the US govt has a committee/group set up to investigate AND INTERACT WITH UFOs (and their crew presumably!)

okay, Stanton Friedman is a nuclear physicist. Does that make him right?

just wondering

freda

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

"Many scientists are afraid of ridicule, and would not risk their reputations by studying certain areas"

Luckily, lots of other scientists are not afraid, and will study those areas. The whole point of science is that everything, everything, everything is open to question. ALL conclusions are provisional. There is no faith (except in a handfull of axioms such as "two points determine a straight line"). There is no greater source of fame (and fortune) than overturning dearly-held beliefs. There will always be one whose lust for fame and wealth is stronger than fear of ridicule. BTW, academic institutions go to great lengths to ensure freedom of inquiry.

And no, being a nuclear physicist doesn't make him right. Having ideas that stand up to relentless scrutiny would make him right...for the moment of course. Also, beware of experts outside their field of expertise.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:32 PM

I am entirely in accord with the scientific method as you describe it, Wolfgang. I think it is an excellent method.

Here is another example of faith: People have faith in the philosophy of life that they are drawn to and take for their own. You have a philosophy, Wolfgang. Your philosophy of life shapes the way you interpret information and look at things. I also have a philosophy, and it differs from yours in some areas. This leads to us having different reactions to certain subjects. It doesn't necessarily mean that either one of us is wrong, it simply means we are looking at things from a different angle, and expressing things differently.

We are in agreement on the validity of the scientific method when it is applied in an unbiased and unprejudiced fashion.

But who is entirely without prejudice? And who is entirely without blind spots or limited awareness when it comes to perceiving all of reality?

Therein lies the problem.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

BTW, academic institutions go to great lengths to ensure freedom of inquiry.


Except when it serves their interests not to; there have been too many cases where politics and funding defined these virtues.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:44 PM

The human shortcomings of scientists does not impact upon science. Bad science, bad scientists, liars and charlatans abound, but science finds them out. That's the whole point of science. It's always subject to alteration. Even the fact that the earth moves around the sun may be disproven by the revelation of something of which we are at present unaware, but it will be science that reveals such. Science is not a belief system. It simply means knowledge. I would suggest shaving the little green men with Occam's razor.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,debateoverdosed
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

So does anyone change their minds after these debates? It's all turning into Blah blah blah.

I have never heard so much talk that accomplished so little. Please someone tell me the POINT of all this?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

actually the earth does NOT orbit around the sun - rather it orbits around the center of gravity of the entire solar system

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:55 PM

The point? There has to be a point??? Chill out, baby. Maybe we just enjoy talking about it. If you don't, there are always other threads where you can go that are more fun than this one...

Don't you ever talk because you enjoy it?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:58 PM

You think this is bad? visit MOAB or the Fo-biac threads!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

"Science is not a belief system. It simply means knowledge..."

Uh-huh. But...the way that knowledge is gathered and interpreted depends upon the innate belief systems of the gatherers. When they achieve a major breakthrough their belief systems often change...or...when their belief systems change they are often enabled TO reach a new major breakthrough...because they are looking for it with a different set of eyes, so to speak.

Therefore, belief systems shape science...and new scientific information shapes new belief systems. It works both ways.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

rather it orbits around the center of gravity of the entire solar system
... so, that would be the sun then ...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:09 PM

..at least so we hope...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

Little Hawk...Wolfgang answered the question of biased & prejudiced scientific research in his earlier post. The point was, it is self correcting. Even biased & prejudiced research can serve a purpose, when it is being done to counter OTHER biased & prejudiced research! And eventually, whether by honest research or biased research, some theory or set of facts emerge which are hard to challenge...and they remain until new data are found.....and so it goes. There ARE tenets of science which are NOT challenged much anymore, (i.e. 'the Earth is roughly spherical') because almost universal agreement has been reached.

as to 'faith'...it is like a number of concepts we argue about here regularly. It lends itself to equivocation, that is, using the word to mean something a bit different from either 1)what your opponent is talking about, or b) what the generally understood usage of the word is.
...it is done with 'folk', it is done with 'God', it is done with 'fair' and 'reasonable' and it is REALLY done with 'belief'....and when done carefully, equivocation is hard to catch and takes a LOT of typing to expose. It is related to the "straw man" argument, where someone mis-represents a position (whether accidently, or on purpose)in order to argue against it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:20 PM

the way that knowledge is gathered and interpreted depends upon the innate belief systems of the gatherers.

This is exactly wrong. It's independent. Shove your finger into a light socket and you'll get shocked whether you're a catholic, a buddhist or an abductee.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 01:38 PM

The deeper beliefs in space and time have to be in place there, BPL. You have to differentiate between beliefs of the mind and those that define your actual experience in various universes -- the deep convictions that define how you be and how you see.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:29 PM

BPL, if you wish to focus on physical events that are totally obvious to anyone, then of course we are in perfect agreement. That might not be what I had in mind, though.

Rather than simply trying to "win" the argument, consider the interesting alternatives and it will get us much farther in having a useful discussion here.

I think you may have become too accustomed to political campaigning or something. This isn't a question of winning here, it's a question of communicating more effectively and finding out something in the process.

I respect the scientific method and always have.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:35 PM

no - the sun also orbits around the center of mass of the solar system.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:37 PM

I believe you are right about that, Mario. As far as we know, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM

I have no need to win an argument, and anyone that has followed this thread will know where the last word will come from. Gimme a shout when they land.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM

Hey, man, they already have. Only trouble is, they didn't stay. I frankly wish they would.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

It's too late for me for big thoughts and long posts, so I say goodnight with a minor quibble:

innate belief systems (Little Hawk)

Innate? I would have thought this type of thinking was out of fashion since 1945 or so.

Wolfgang (grin)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:19 AM

Science is self -correcting, but it takes a while sometimes.

Couple of famous examples:

It took a long time for meteorites to be recognized for what they are by science. Thomas Jefferson, for one, said he would sooner believe a Yankee schoolmaster would lie than that stones could fall from the sky (that's the schoomaster that reported the fall.)

And there was Semmelweiss, who said puerperal fever could be reduced if doctors would wash their hands. "When he published the results of ten years of observation in 1861, he suffered vicious attacks on his integrity and was forced to flee Vienna. He eventually suffered a complete psychological breakdown and committed suicide."

Offhand I can remember when there were canals on Mars and when excercise was bad for people with heart trouble. And when it was only folklore that cougars screamed. According to science, that is.

I remember the surprise when Benson's research showed that meditation could produce changes in body chemistry.

Right now there's bound to be lots of stuff we know that ain't so, that the self-correction hasn't caught up with yet.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 12:22 AM

Not to mention the deathless rejection of Doctor Harvey's research into the plumbing of the irculatory suystem: "I would rather err, and side with Galen, than be right with Harvey!".

It may be apocryphal, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:07 AM

It may be apocryphal, but that attitude certainly exists.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:22 AM

Amos, I hadn't read about Harvey & Galen before, and still cant do those clickies.

but here's an interesting article about them, an case any one else is interested, like me.


http://www.accessexcellence.org/AE/AEC/CC/heart_background.html

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 01:32 PM

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 01:49 PM

So here's MY story. The year would be about 1950. I had been visiting my fiancee in Northumberland, and was travelling by bus. The route took us for some distance along the shore of Solway, South Scotland. It happened when the vehicle was stationary, at an official stop. A clear bright day, and I was seated by a window, left side. A bright point of light took my eye, high in the sky to the lefT. It was n't anything that I could have put a label on--just a small [seemingly] brilliant object. Then an amazing thing took place; from a standing start---no apparent acceleration---it went into lightning motion, and, literally like a lightning flash, was out over the solway firth and over the horizon in what seemed like a second or less. My immediate reaction was disbelief; it just wasn't possible. I looked around at the other passengers. No one else seemed to be reactiong to any such phnomenon. I slid down in my seat, thinking--better keep my trap shut! But the lady in the seat behind tapped my shoulder. "Did you see something just then?" When I answered, she proceeded to describe the incident exactly as I had seen it. I had been telling myself that I'd seen a reflection in the window glass---but that theory "went out the window" [p. the Pun--]as I realised that no two people in different parts of the vehicle could possibly see the same reflection. Made me think--and it still does!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:25 PM

well, that's similar to the small bright light I saw when I was 15, just flash and gone. (and no window) I assume anyone else beside me could have seen it too unless it was a flash INSIDE my owm eye....but I have never wondered seriously what it was.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 02:43 PM

One of the vehicles I observed did a similar maneuver...but only after it had spent a good 15 minutes hovering in one spot, and moving around some at lower speeds, and making sudden leaps across large areas of sky to new positions. It then went from directly overhead to over the far horizon in about a second and a half. Our vehicles are simply not capable of such speeds, nor are they capable of instant acceleration and deceleration in the air at enormously high speeds. It was also silent, and had no wings, and left no contrails or anything like that. It was round, disc-shaped, with a protuberance above and below, much like some of the photos on the site that Amos provided the link to. It could vary its illumination from a dull glow to a very bright light, and it had secondary smaller lights that moved around the rim of the disc-shaped hull.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:10 PM

Don't look behind you..

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

I said DON'T look behind you

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:14 PM

Okay, though I have told this story before I will regale you all with it again.

UFO's exist and it was a Gov't agency that was doing the reporting (although that is kinda like the post office delivering the mail to the Santa Claus in Miracle on 34th St.)

Back in the summer of '78 there was a report on the Washington DC news stations from the Naval Observatory (located right next to Bolling AFB on the Potomac River, which anyone familiar with the area would tell you is right across from Ronald Reagan International Airport) that a UFO was hovering over DC. We all went outside and observed exactly what the observatory personnel had reported. A more or less diamond shaped object which was "hovering" in the skies above DC at a high altitude. The object seemed to be spinning and was changing colors red, blue,green. We observed the object for quite a long time and it did not move with the rest of the celestial globe (Since it was not the North Star we should have seen some change in its position if it were a stellar body and I'll get to geostationary objects in a minute)). During the viewing the TV stations around DC all went off the air (not white noise/snow on the screen, but a gray shade). The object sat in the sky for much longer than I've ever seen a pilot be able to hover a helicopter (jets are out of the question because it takes forward momentum or water vapor to keep the engines cooled, Harrier jump jets can only hover for approx. 90 seconds or so). After about an hour and a half the object began slowly receeding and then suddenly shot off upwards and out of sight. Had it not done this I would consider that it was a geostationary satellite. Since this also occurred in one of the nations busiest air corridors and since the object never seemed to vary in position during its hover period, I would think this to be a very dangerous display for an experimental aircraft (it was not displaying the correct lighting patterns for an aircraft.)

If this type of aircraft exists in our Gov'ts inventory I'm pretty sure we would have heard something more about it by now. The next day when my mother called the observatory to ask if anything further had been found out the personnel at the observatory asked her if she was on the observatory staff. Not being as quick witted as she has become since, she answered "no" and was promptly hung up on.

The thing is this. I can understand if it were a secret Gov't project and no-one wanted to talk about it. But the next day there weren't even any reports on the TV or in the newspapers about the report when it had been announced on all the TV channels the night before. There is a cover-up. Exactly what is being covered up is anyones guess.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 03:31 PM

Yes. That there is a coverup is obvious enough when you bother looking into the available history...and you won't if you are deeply prejudiced against or uninterested in the subject. What is not so clear is exactly what is being covered up and why...but there are plenty of interesting opinions regarding that.

Thanks for that story, Chief.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:33 PM

It is sobering (well, actually, perhaps not for all here) to read reports from other cultures what people of those cultures have seen and swear to. The middle age and at some places even later had its witches. They have been observed often by several people at the same time riding on brooms through the sky and doing other seemingly impossible activities. Well, some reports may be lies or wrong observations but you cannot explain all reports this way.

Not to forget, there was a big cover-up of these activities. But for people without prejudices the existence and the doings of witches was completely obvious.

Each culture has its own myths, and the myths of a culture influence what people see when they perceive something which is not familar.

Little Hawk, what you describe has 'light effect' written all over it.

Chief Chaos, when you did tell the story the first time, less than three months ago, the story was set in 1979 and the light were green, white, red.

Only minor details, I know, but that illustrates why I read personal reports with a grain of salt.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:36 PM

What's a 'light effect' ?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:54 PM

Wolfgang:

The site to which I linked upthread contains scores of photos from 1900 to present , more or less, each one of which contains some anomalous flying object. In fact many of them are remarkably similar.

1. Do you have any particular reason for considering these pictures "more likely to be falsified" rather than "more likely to be actual", aside from the fact that they are unusual?

2. Given the wide array of locations from which they come, how might you account for the similarity of form of these anomalous objects?

Many thanks,

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:25 PM

It's a matter of faith, Amos. Wolfgang's faith in his own understanding of such matters is strong enough that he can easily explain away any number of photographs and any number of detailed sightings by living people...and link them with the claims of "witches" from the Middle Ages! My, my. That is strong faith indeed.

Understand, Wolfgang, that no one here is denying your science or the things you know about, but you are denying their credibility, and some things they have actually experienced...merely because it supports your present understanding of reality. That sounds like the ego trying to defend itself to me...

You also nitpick details in a personal story. Rather silly. Can you recall exactly a conversation you had with someone many years ago or an experience you had...and describe it in exactly the same terms...and I mean EXACTLY...each and every time you talk about it? I doubt that.

The fact remains that Chief Chaos had a remarkable experience, and you are denying his ability to remember or understand it with any accuracy at all. Which means you don't respect his intelligence or powers of obervation.

You are doing that only to support an already indefensible position...which is that you KNOW there are no alien visitors presently coming to this planet. You don't know anything of the kind.

And I did NOT believe in such things when I saw that UFO (which was not a light effect...ha!) nor was I expecting to see one.

I respect your science and your intelligence, Wolfgang. Why can you not respect other people's intelligence and their ability to interpret what they see with their own eyes?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

I didnt know that medieval witches used cameras! now, at last, all is explained!


fred

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:36 PM

Yeah. :-) Humour is the great leavener of debate, eh Freda?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:59 PM

yes, its more fun than science, and just as truthful!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:29 PM

LH:

Thanks for your explanation, but I need the answer from Wolfgang.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM

Any good physicist will tell you that zero point energy is feasible but for a commercial application you need TWO perfectly flat pieces of metal perfectly aligned to be parrallel and a 100,000 of an inch apart. And did I mention that the pieces of metal have to be a third the size of Manhatten?



................
Phenomena is a matter of perception.
It is never a matter of belief.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 03:18 AM

UFOs aren't necessarily signs of extraterrestrial intrusion into Earth environment. They are very possibly a product of some top secret Earth science. There is NO doubt, however, that material objects of varied mass HAVE entered our environment from deep space. What is in doubt is whether or not intelligent beings have made close approach, or even landfall on this planet. It is self-delusion in the extreme, in my opinion, on the part of humanity to assume that the human race is the most highly developed life form in the universe, either in intelligence or technical achievement. I cannot imagine, at the same time, that any intelligence from outside our own Galaxy can have developed any kind of travel which would enable the journey to our wee planet to be undertaken. I am a strong believer in Einstein's statement that nothing material [possessing mass] can exceed the speed of light. The abilty to do just that would --according to even Newton's laws---entail a sudden transition into the PAST. That phenomenon would usurp the "causality law" --i.e. give someone literally the power to alter their own future. So I am inclined to suggest that any extraterrestrial visitors are from somewhere in the Milky Way. In this universe, there is nothing more certain than that there are millions of potential life-forming environments. To suggest otherwise is to deny the unimaginable vastness of the universe. But to traverse a distance of, say a million light years---a mere step in the vastness--when tied by the "causality law" means a million years of travel! Keep an open mind on the subject; if there is truth in the assertion that humans have a soul, it may well be that travel beyond light into the past IS after all feasible! [ Jeeze---what a ramble!!!]

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 03:22 AM

Let me quote this phrase from Wolfgang:
"Each culture has its own myths, and the myths of a culture influence what people see when they perceive something which is not familar."

In the immensity of the Argentinean Pampas, popular culture is highly related to cattle breeding. You can imagine the panic of people when they saw their cows lying dead and horribly mutilated for apparently no reason. There were not only photographs, but real corpses of the poor cows showing perfect cuts which no known predator could cause. Other animals kept good distance from the dead bodies. No steps of predators, no signals of a fight. Neither the police or the expert breeders or veterinarians would find an explanation, and the phenomenon was rapidly associated to extraterrestrials, especially because tongues and genitals were missing from the bodies, as if someone was taking samples.

The University of Buenos Aires took intervention, they could see, touch and analyze the bodies (something you can't on UFOs or witches), put all pieces together, studied the cuts at the microscope, dedicated some open-minded scientists (they found some), and found the culprit: a super-population of a rare species of rats, attacking naturally dead animals, which had never showed such behaviour before. Not satisfied with the results, they left some bodies lying down in the field for a night in the same places, and could see a repetition ad nauseam of the phenomenon (another thing that you can't do with UFOs). You can guess what the UFO specialists say: that an extraterrestrial monster is killing the cows and the University scientists are covering-up the facts as part of some conspiracy involving the government, and (why not?) the CIA.

One resolved case does not explain the others, though. We are waiting for a UFO brought into the laboratories and then celebrate whatever we can discover.

Nice discussion, thanks to all who are participating. Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 11:24 AM

I think that they do because unlike some other people I have an open mind, and until someone prooves that they don't exist then I'll believe that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 01:03 PM

believing in something with sparse proof is, I'm afraid, an example of a closed mind, not an open mind.

I will let Wolfgang answer questions in his own way, but in my reading of his posts, I saw nothing to indicate that he claims to KNOW that there are no alien visitors coming here, only that he does not, like me, accept there there are based on scattered reports by others. This is not a denial, it is merely a tighter definition of what constitutes 'proof'.

Those, (like me), who consider themselves sceptics in the careful, scientific sense of the word, seem to spend an inordinate amount of time defending and explaining the rationale and definitions of certain positions against equivocation and "straw man" arguments.

There is no way I, or anyone else, can absolutely prove that alien ship are not 'here', or that psychic phenomena do not exist, or that certain religious tenets are not true, or that there are no elves 10 miles below Ireland......NOR ARE WE TRYING TO.
...The burden of proof for ANY of these ideas is on the assertor, and sceptics (the careful, fair type) are merely testing these various claims in a bit more demanding way than many of the claimants. If, we can have...as Escamillo, says, "a UFO brought into the laboratories" then we will indeed "celebrate whatever we can discover." and no one will be more interested than the sceptics to find out what the truth is.

Wow...what if the 'truth' turns out to be that there ARE no 'ships', but that the elves under Ireland are master of mind control! Far-fetched, I guess, but I'll BET with a little creative seeding of stories you can find someone who'd believe it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 01:58 PM

Bill D: What's not to believe?

Cultures (languages) hear roosters very differently. When asked to vocally describe the sound roosters make when they cockadoodledo, the Chines, Italians and English all give different descriptions of the sound the roosters make.

Artists have depicted 'saucer shapes' in the air in paintings that date back a millenium. The Bible has Ezeliel (sp?) and his wheel, and cave paintings show similar oddities. I won't insist that anyone interpret that stuff the way I do. People are entitled to opinions.

I happen to agree with LH. I too have seen a 'ship' that was not of human maunfacture. But really, with all respect to my peers, I do not really care who believes me. There are times when the phone has rung and I have known who was calling. No, it was not always someone whose call I was expecting. A few have been from people I hadn't seen for years, they popped into my mind, and boom, the phone rings. To me, who's on the other end is a no-brainer, but I know I could never convince anyone of the truth of what I am saying. On occasions when I have said, "That's Ben (or David or Sue)" and I have been right, those who heard me figured it was a lucky guess. OK by me.

I agree the science avenue has to be pursued. However, is there anyone here who thinks independent studies of UFOs would be allowed by governments? Not a chance. Too much tech advance to be made in back-engineering. Average people would be cut out before they even got to start. So, governments have their secret areas--Groom Lake in the US and another in Australia. It's all probably research that has to be kept classified and close-hold, but one wonders. One wonders about programs like Echelon and groups like Majestic 12. One wonders about things like the conflicting reports from Bentwater in England. One wonders about Men in Black and just how pervasive their influence really is. Yes, indeed, one wonders.

And now I will shut up for a while.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 02:00 PM

Sorry, left the smile off the remark to Bill D and forgot the e on Chinese. I'll leave the rest of the typos to the pedants.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

I suspect that Wolfgang, if pressed, would certainly agree, Bill, that he does not KNOW there are no alien ships visiting this planet. However, he certainly gives the general impression that he KNOWS that whenever he discusses it. :-) And I think his underlying assumption is one of almost complete certainty. It's an emotional assumption, not a logical one. Strong emotional assumptions can always hunt up various forms of logic to apparently support them...although the logic is limited by available information.

Now I give the general impression that I do believe there are alien ships visiting this planet. That is mainly because I saw something that most likely was an alien ship....and so have a great many other people...and photographs have been taken...and craft have been tracked on radar screens...and jet planes have chased them...and so on. I don't KNOW it, but I strongly suspect it. What I do KNOW is what I saw.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence supporting my proposition, and none whatsoever supporting Wolfgang's, but he considers his propostion to be vastly more likely. That is illogical.

I freely admit that there may be other explanations: the ships could be of Earthly manufacture (if so, by whom?). They could be from the "inner Earth" (a whole other possible subject...but I doubt it). They could be non-physical apparitions (but I doubt it). They could be time travellers. They could be interdimensional travellers.

I don't know. All I know is I saw some on 2 different occasions (involving entirely different-looking craft), and the most likely explanation to me is that they were interplanetary craft...but it's just one of a number of possibilities.

Chief Chaos and numerous others have recounted their own stories.

Now, Bill, I'm sure you have seen some things I haven't in your life. If you were to tell me about some of those things I wouldn't be inclined to disbelieve you just because I haven't seen one yet...nor would I necessarily assume that you lack the ability to understand what you are looking at. It takes very strong faith to deny other people's experience out of hand, unless it appears to defy the laws of reality as you know them...and even then it takes some arrogance...if you regard the other person as sane and normal.

There is nothing about a visiting extra-terrestrial vehicle visting Earth that defies the laws of reality as we know them. It's about as impossible as James Cook visiting Hawaii, as a matter of fact...or you or me flying to Florida. All it requires is someone out there with the technology to do it and the desire to.

And if, unlike the colonizing British, they neither stay nor invade...well, so? That simply raises some VERY interesting questions, doesn't it? If you have the imagination to ask them...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

Governments DO allow independent studies of UFOs, there are hundreds of groups in the world. They are not economically supported and will not be, as long as they don't bring material evidence of what they are studying (because vehicles should be material, not a matter of emotions or thoughts). The same happens with independent inventors of the zero point energy device, telekinesis, etc. etc. and frequently they are the same persons, as the case of Dr. Greers which I mentioned before. This does not prove that UFOs do not exist as alien vehicles, as well as personal experiences do not prove their existence. May be, may be not. I am rather more interested in the phantasy and creative imagination behind those assertions, if they are not based on the search for profit.

Un abrazo,
Andrés
(Once Isaac Asimov said "There is nothing more easy and safe to attack than the science institutions. What is dangerous is to attack institutions of power" - Note: science of the 20th century)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

True, Escamillo, but the purported UFO crashes seem to have been contained quickly by governments. The areas become restricted very quickly. The point I was getting at is that the material stuff that could be studied seems to be absconded with before civilians can get at it.

I agree that institutions can be very easy to attack. Sometime when you have a few months, try to get information on MJ 12. Then ask the US government for uncensored paper work to do with MJ 12. Then try to visit Groom Lake. Tell me how you fare. Then tell me there is nothing to hide. That's the point I was trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:39 PM

Agreed, the governments do have many things to hide, many classified projects and investigations and many restricted areas. They are able to dedicate a top restricted area for the research of UFOs, if they get one. Unfortunately, this is not a solid point for any assertion regarding the nature of the hidden thing. We can only suspect that something is being absconded, but they have so many things to hide (as for example thousands of bodies in Argentina from 1976 to 1983)that it turns impossible for us to base or reinforce any idea on those assumptions.

Of course, if an independent group finds a material evidence on UFOs, they will not be so naive to show it secretly to the Air Force, they should open it to universities, journalists and the general public, even taking the risk of being invaded by the media. It will be far better than losing the evidence. But I can see that those independent groups, when they assure that they have found material evidence, always find a reason to not show it, arguing that the originator was threatened, or lost contact with them, or that they keep the evidence for their own research, or show some vague photos, or a piece of alluminum, and that's all. Are they hiding the evidence too?

Un abrazo,
Andrés (in Buenos Aires)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM

well, brucie & Little Hawk...we are at a stand-off. Neither of you in your replies dealt dierctly and specifically with the points I made.

The rooster and artist metaphors, brucie, are answers to some things, but NOT to what I was arguing. The examples of evidence you cite, both historical and current, are certainly 'things to study & ponder over', but hardly something that can be tested. Who knows what ancient artists 'saw' when they made those drawings? (well, I suppose that what happens at Groom Lake 'could' be tested, but..*grin*...lets just sit out here and let others take the chance, hmmm?)

And Little Hawk- we don't get very far by second guessing what someone means by examining "the general impression that he KNOWS.." etc. And I hope you don't really, truly mean that his opinions are "... an emotional assumption, not a logical one." If someone were to say that to me, it would 'feel' very close to an insult, rather than a disagreement, and I know you are not given to concious insults of people.

Let me tell you what *I* saw just recently. Last weekend, I saw a white, 1947 Lincoln sedan, in running order...up close. Now suppose someone told me..."I don't believe that! I have heard of such things, but I never saw one, and I have heard that there were never any like that made!"

Well...simple...I can take the doubter out to the farm and open that shed and show him! And he can take pictures and sit in it. And newsmen can come and spread the story....well, you get the point. No one could reasonably doubt. This is simply a different level of fact, reality, truth, evidence...whatever...than UFOs. I agree---nothing proves UFOs don't exist, but until we GET the sort of proof that resembles my proof of the Lincoln, there are simply other possible explanations for what you and others claim to have seen!

I **do not** ...repeat- do NOT,doubt that you had an experience which startled and amazed you, but (and I say this sincerely), if I had seen something like you tell about, that I never saw again, and could NOT take someone to look at, I would be just as curious and amazed, but would NOT deduce that it "probably" came from space, operated by an alien civilization! Why? Because I know of MANY ways such experiences are possible without being what they seem. You know the list....

It is NOT a question of doubting your honesty...or even your memory. You had the experience you had, and you had to come to terms with it...but once you report on it, people will be curious. "Why can't I see one of those, Daddy?" ---When I was 6 years old, I 'knew' I had seen Santa Claus, because I didn't understand how the game worked, and I had the will to BELIEVE. That has now changed, and I understand more of the ways I can be fooled, confused, mistaken, and...most important...for some reason I just don't NEED to have a complete explanation for all my experiences. I WANT to, but I don't NEED to. I would simply process a UFO sighting differently...until it became an IFO experience I could share with others. I truly would LOVE to learn of exceptions to the laws of physics that make many folks doubt that other stars could send ships to buzz us and give us hundreds of blurry photos. Right now, I don't see how it COULD work so I 'suspect' William of Occam would join me in looking for simpler explanations.

Once more...I would LOVE to be wrong...no, rather I would love for YOU to be right *grin* ...But I do NOT like having my scepticism being portrayed as close-minded and illogical....Wolfgang can tell you how it affects him, if he cares to.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM

Oh why, oh why, oh why, did I start this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Andres,

I hear you loudly and clearly.

The phenomena of crop circles has got thousands of people interested in 'weird' things. The people who research seem to keep lots of findings to themselves. But, if you release everything you find, who will buy the book? I would imagine lots of people have their own agendas. However, we come to know that there is much to wonder about, regardless of the 'realities'. Part of the problem is the secretness of governments. When they give people poorly constructed stories or half truths, people think "conspiracy" right away. We have HAARP, UFOs, Crop Circles (around which military helicopters have been seen and filmed flying in England). Crop circle investigators who have been 'spoken to' by folks purportedly representing government; mixed stories about places and events like Bentwater; mixed stories about Roswell and the 1947 events; mixed stories about missing radio time in one of the moon orbits; mixed stories with the Kennedy assassination. Put it all together, and there is no reason to trust government. Too bad, because we elect these people, and they seem to have agendas of their own. I don't necessarily believe everyone who tells a story, but I don't necessarily believe the words from governments either. They have lied about too much.

Best regards to you, Andres.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 06:04 PM

Bill D:

I do not find your views at all closed-minded. If I gave you that impression, please accept my apology. You are one of the clearer thinkers on the 'cat and I look forward to your writing, because I always find your thoughts to be well-considered and intelligent.

Bruce Murdoch

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM

BillD, in my job i have to write a lot of analytical, evidence based docs. at work i am a skepticaemiac of the first order, thats what i'm paid for. it is nice to take the hat off in mudcat, (and the punctuation), but as a professional skepticaemiac i have to have a good laugh at myself too, its part of being objective. i respect and appreciate your comments, Bill, which are always interesting, make me think and sometimes give me a good laugh.


Freda

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 04:30 AM

Bruce, agreed again. Governments lie too much. Especially after the military has taken part, and don't forget that in every case, when a government sees a subject that could be related to aerial vehicles, or supposed weapons not of their own, they immediately call their admirals and generals and form a secret commission to "investigate". If they see crop circles which are said to be signals of an aircraft, they send their people. I think this is neither bad nor good, it is just inevitable. After all, who will give a cent for their heads if they fail to investigate a remotely possible form of weapon? You and me and everybody would condemn them, and never vote them any more.

To obtain further explanations from governments is very hard. As you say, everybody keeps their own agenda. We will probably never know who killed Kennedy, who ignored the alarms about 9/11, and where are the 30,000 missing people in Argentina.

What I do expect is some important contribution from the independent researchers of UFOs and from universities of the world, who will be happy to have something to put their hands on. Photos are of no value at all. Testimonies from personal experiences, not repeatable, lead to nowhere. People seeking fame and money add to confusion. And what is really interesting is WHAT do people think about the encounter of two civilizations, however and whenever they happen to meet.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:46 AM

Foolstroupe, I hold you personally responsible for starting this thread, and I for one am now convinced that you are indeed an alien amongst us. Your websites only add fuel to the flame, and I suggest that everyone posting here be very careful from now on. He's taking down names and checking them twice...xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:00 AM

I don't care. I'm an alien too :)

Andrés (in Buenos Aires)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:14 AM

Oh Dear Ellenpoly,

now my secret is out...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:46 PM

What is interesting about the art from the past millenium that shows saucer shapes is the fact that the artists seldom if ever met each other and didn't see each other's work. So, why saucer shapes as opposed to cubes or tetrahedrons?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:41 PM

Well, Bill, here is what I first thought about the first UFO sighting I had. Initially, I saw a very bright light approaching in the sky around or shortly after dusk (it was in the late 60's, so I no longer remember the exact time of day or even the month in which it happened, but it was fairly warm weather...I think it was summertime. Anyway, I saw a very bright light approaching steadily at high altitude.

1. 1st assumption: "Here comes an airplane with an unusually bright light at the front". (some planes do have such lights)

I then was puzzled by the fact that the light became gradually dimmer as the object came closer. That struck me as odd. And there seemed to be no sound of an engine.

2. I began to wonder, "Is that a satellite?" I then got some binoculars.

3. As the object arrived almost directly overhead it stopped moving entirely. By this time I could see it quite clearly, because the bright light had dimmed down to a softer light. The whole object was illuminated equally, as if lit from within. It glowed like a frosted ceiling globe with a light inside it. It was shaped like a smooth saucer, (or 2 desert bowls, back to back) with a raised protuberance on top and below. It had no visible wings, propellors, windows, or jet intakes that I could see. It stood absolutely still in one place in the sky for some time (10 or 15 minutes, I'd say). The light that it emanated varied at times from brighter to softer, dulling down to a sort of metallic sheen when softest. It had two quite small lights that cycled regularly around the rim, red and green (oddly enough, just like an airplane, but they moved around the rim in a regular fashion. Airplanes have wingtip lights like that which are fixed in one position.)

The object then eventually made some indeterminate slow speed manuevers here and there. It then made some tremendously high speed leaps across large areas of sky, stopping in a new position and remaining still for a bit before doing another leap.

4. By this point I was beginning to think: "That is no airplane, helicopter, or satellite!"

There, Bill, I was at the first moment in my life where I seriously considered that we might have alien visitors to this planet.

What would your conclusion have been, under a similar circumstance?

It was not a searchlight playing on the clouds either. I've seen those many times, and I recognize them for what they are. Besides which, there were no clouds that night.

I'll tell you what it was...it was a smooth, manufactured vehicle of some kind, doing things that we do not normally consider possible in this civilization. And whose it was...I haven't the slightest idea.

Now do you have a specific question I haven't answered?

There is nothing insulting about suggesting that a person's basic beliefs rest on an emotional foundation....such is true of all people. They emotionally commit to a given proposition, and then they run around gathering data, opinions, facts, and experiences that support that position. This is true of scientists, politicians, preachers, and ordinary people in all walks of life. If they are rigorously honest and open-minded and unafraid to change, they will also give fair consideration to things they haven't yet made an emotional committment in support of. But that kind of openmindedness is fairly rare.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM

These things that don't exist have got 260 posts written about them or because of them. Not bad.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:03 PM

I have an old (1950-60's) Practical Mechanics in which I have a picture of a saucer shaped aeroplane. About that time there was also the flying wing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:28 PM

Wolfgang,

Ooops!
Sorry that I didn't recount the experience as to the exact detail as I did before. Being a military brat I grew up around the US and sometimes I have trouble recounting dates as I have to remember them by where I was and whom else was around at the time. As far as the colors go, oh well.

I can see exactly where this type of story, and the errors made with each telling can get worse with years with additions and exaggerations. Since those two were the only two that you found different I'm glad that I'm not totally senile anyway.

I am not trying to prove that UFO's exist. Only relating my experiences with the subject. I would normally consider myself a sceptic (see my posts related to our own gov't LOL) but on this subject I find myself to the other side of the line from the "true" sceptics. I am sorry I can't offer you any real proof of their existence in the way of a ship or little green being to shake your hand. The ones I have seen (there are others but this is the one that the Gov't itself reported) have not landed and I haven't had a camera (in that experience I was all of twelve I think and a Kodak Instamatic wouldn't have proved much anyway).

There are some things that have disturbed me in the way the Gov't denies the existence and then doesn't offer full access to the records that would have presumably been made. I would point out that there are at least a few reports made during the Project Bluebook years that remain unexplained (meaning of course that Jupiter wasn't in the area of the sighting, there were no swamps around to cause swamp gasses, etc.). There is a cover-up. That is undeniable. Whether that is because the objects in question are actually military experimental aircraft or "flying saucers" remains to be seen. One thing that is for sure is that the Gov't investigates the scenes of crashes with many men, equipment, and forces anyone in the areas to leave and then leaves themselves, usually without much in the way of explanation. The other thing is that if the previous sightings (before the actual unveiling of the F-117 or flying wing) coincide with actual flights of these previously experimental aircraft, I think it would behoove the gov't to come forth and say that yes, the objects which you reported back on (date) were actually flights of these aircraft. Combined with the flight records (with some data censored for security reasons) this would do a lot to lay to rest alot of this particular controversy. I will not hold my breath with the current administration. The only thing else that I have to add is that for years some believed that dinosaurs may still be among us (aside from animals that were around at the time as well such as the croc). THey were denied and criticised with derision. And then someone caught a ceolocanth.

P.S.: I encourage the dialogue here and have made this post very sincerely. If I'm crazy, and you just might think so, I've got nobody to blame but myself. I only get ticked when someone claims with some authority that it's impossible for this or that reason when we have ourselves overcome or otherwise found a way around this or that physical law over the ages. Whereas I do not encourage the belief of all things, in this instance I think the belief may encourage others to experiment until we to are able to reach out to other solar systems ourselves. And one day when (not if) we do find another intelligent race, we will then be the UFO's that everyone will argue about.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:20 AM

Little Hawk, your story of what you observed is eerily [!!]descriptive of the phenomenon which the old country folk used to call "Will-o'-the-wisp", and which became part of the lore which encompassed the underworld of elves and faeries which was widespread in old [particularly Celtic] societies. Far from being a myth, however, Will-o-the-wisp was a real entity, despite the supernatural quality being implied. I was reared surrounded on three side by marshland and Loch, and I have seen this erratic bright light many times. The closest I can come to decribing its motion is to suggest bringing to mind the bouncing ball in a bagatelle or a pinball machine. It was a ball or bubble of phosphorescent marsh gas [methane?}which, as it moved and came in contact with any object such as marsh vegetation was somehow abruptly repelled. As you can imagine, the darting could become pretty frantic at times, and it was small wonder that the old peoples tended to endow it with a life of its own. Never saw it above me, though!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:47 AM

Hi again Foolestroupe......I do believe that there have to be unidentified flying objects..the crux of the matter concerns where they come from and how good peoples imagination is, as a recent TV documentary showed when the balloon was radio contolled over a village. People believed what they saw to be a UFO....and it was to them...the owners knew different.
Incidentally.. I have only added to your thread to boost your numbers and keep you ahead of me....Best wishes

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:56 AM

Hey brucie, so many postings to this thread as you've pointed out, and yet not ONE mention by you of your love of cats! I think there may be a connection here.

Not wanting to bring up the obvious, but it seems to me that-

Cats are certainly Aliens amongst us,

You're protecting them,

And LH is part of the cover-up...;-)

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 08:15 AM

Chief Chaos, I hope you are no longer sceptic, best get an antibiotic.

..........
Regarding Project Bluebook being a coverup, I knew the director Dr. J. Allen Hynek and he told me personally, which was tape recorded and still in my posession, that the Air Force deliberatly covered up many of the key episodes he was appointed to investigate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 08:53 AM

What's a 'light effect' ? (Clint)

I can see why this was ununderstandable as short as it was. I have used 'light' as a noun here.

When something is seen in the sky that (1) changes colour or brightness (2) stands still and then suddenly moves with an apparent acceleration close to infinite and (3) makes no sound while moving this quickly, then one explanation is that this is perception of a disco laser (or other groundlinked light) reflecting either at the lower surface of a cloud or at the boundary between two layers of air having different humidity and/or temperature. A bit like a mirage effect.

The absence of sound and the very unusual accelaration would be difficult to explain otherwise.

Amos, I have no expertise in judging photographs, but by far the majority of what I have looked at (on that site) are not really different from photos I have seen that have been declared by the people who have took them as (1) hoaxes or (2) effect of dirt/water on camera lenses (you could e.g. look at the site I have linked to far above which has some fake photos). The sceptic photo fakers I know do not make pictures any different from those. Some make a sport out of it who gets the nicest UFO photo. Jackpot is of course to find these pictures later in photo collections of believers as true (but that may be a boasting exaggeration by them).

Of course, the fact that pictures as good as those can be falsified is no proof of anything except to take photo documentations with a grain of salt.
Why are they all similar? Well, why are all pictures of Christ from one period similar? Or a longer response: For three reasons: (1) small particles on the camera lens often lead to disk shaped pictures. (2) Fakers know what the expectation is. (3) An unusual unexplained object found by chance on a photo has a larger chance to turn up as UFO photo than objects with other shapes, also due to the common shared cultural knowledge how a UFO looks like.

I suspect that Wolfgang, if pressed, would certainly agree, Bill, that he does not KNOW there are no alien ships visiting this planet. (Little Hawk)

Little Hawk, there is no need to suspect what you can know. My very first Mudcat post mentioning the word UFO which by the way was directed among others explicitely to you made exactly this point (without being pressed, grin). It is possible, but for me has a very low probability of being correct.

For me it's all about weighing the evidence, nothing else. And of course, emotion comes here into play, like in all subjective evaluative processes. Weighing the evidence, BTW, is part of inductive thinking and not of deductive thinking. So if someone looks at the same evidence as you do (excepting of course personal experiences) and comes to different conclusions that is not 'illogical' in any meaningful sense of that word.

Chief Chaos, errors of recollection are nothing remotely related to 'crazy'. Everyone makes them. I just mentioned it to show why I read reports of personal experiences with a lot of salt (you hardly couldn't expect anything else from someone who has written about 'illusions of memory'). A much more serious error of recollection I once have posted.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 09:06 AM

I once saw a UFO. I was with my elderly auntie who refused to look in the sky from the car, in spite of the great black smear across the sky we could both clearly see. I have no proof, but I suspect that it was a piece of space junk burning up on re-entry.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

Good reply, Wolfgang. Yes, I understand your position on this. On the basis of available evidence you regard the proposition that we are being visited by alien vehicles as improbable...I regard it as probable. Okay.

What I saw was not a light effect. It was a clearly visible physical vehicle of a certain definite shape with certain clearly visible features, and it manuevered in a way that is not considered feasible by our science at this time (as regarding both speed and ability to accelerate/decelerate).

I have seen the effects of disco lights and searchlights and such in the sky many times. It was not one of those.

It may have been a secret vehicle (made by the government). I have no way of knowing that it wasn't. But I doubt it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM

Wolfgang:

Dankeschoen for the reply. If the photos in that series were genuine (i.e., reproductions of photos that had been taken as reported and not altered) then the commonality of forms in the objects in many (but not all) of them needs some other explanation, and I don't think a tendency of droplets on lenses to dry in similar patterns will really explain the detail in many of them.

If they are retouched or doctored phtos, then of course all bets are off.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

Was it a light effect?
There certainly were quite a few discos around at the time.
I know for sure that it wasn't a searchlight.
I know now alot of things that i didn't as a child at the age of twelve. But certainly if it were a flasely reported light effect rather than a true UFO I would think they'd at least have the decency to laugh at themselves and put something in the paper to explain it.

I realize that whatever proof is brought forth to prove or to disprove will always be looked at with a skeptical eye (yes I'm no longer sceptic! *BG*.

The only way we'll ever really prove that their are or there aren't UFOs (meaning intelligent alien life forms) is to be able to make it to the stars ourselves. That's a dream worth realizing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:43 PM

I don't think we can explain away all rainbows in photography as Newton rings.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

Three years ago I did quite a few UFO paintings.
Some might get a kick out of some of these...
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/valley3.jpg



http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/cityufo.jpg



gotta go...

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM

City UFO is really fine, Donuel!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM

Escamillo - do you have a link to the report of the rats? I thought that this phenomenon was going on in our country as well so it's kind of a shock to find that it's been rats all this time.

Also, I'm curious. Given that nothing with mass exceeds the speed of light, and that light itself can't avoid the extreme forces of a black hole, what happens to the ejecta on the other side of the hole?

And for those that don't believe, have you ever seen an atom? Pictures don't count! They could be altered! Have you ever seen a quark? What about those other scientific subdivisions of subparticles that we all accept because of mathematics? Does it not make sense that in a universe with "billions and billions of stars" (Thank you Mr. Sagan)to put a number on the concept, a small percentage of which, like this solar system, contain planets, a small percentage of which have earthlike conditions (M-class - whatever that means), that at least one more out of these billions and billions of stars should by the odds alone have a life form if not an intelligent life form? And since we have "traveled to the stars" in the form of landers, satellites and such that they have or will do the same?

My friend here just told me that there's no intelligent life on this planet so I guess it's all a moot point!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM

chief - you are assuming there is an "other side" or ejecta.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM

Well, since matter can't be created or destroyed, that either means it's going somewhere, or the mass of the interior of the black hole must be growing exponentially which means we should be able to see an expansion of the blackhole as it's density creates larger gravitational forces. Either way I'm way over my head here, and it's starting to hurt. I'm going back to my little world where I don't have to think as much.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

well - according to some theories it takes so long for the infalling mass to get through the event horizon that none has ever REACHED the center of mass of a black hole. Try THAT one on for size!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:34 PM

ufo/dimensioanal themes

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/zfzce.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/abduction1

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/atower.html

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/alib.html

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/string.html

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/amother.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/flatv.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/galaxies-of-life2.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/Paperlcity6b.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/starmap4a.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:41 PM

ChiefChaos, this is a link to the English translation of the report. Not only the University of Buenos Aires has had intervention, also the Central University based in Tandil, and the SENASA (Animal Health Dept.) :
University and SENASA Report

I am sure that US and UK scientists have come to similar conclusions, but I still couldn't find a report, probably buried below hundreds of reports and repetitions of reports from UFO researchers who ignore the University's report or try to argue against scientists.

It's important to note that in this case, the subject of investigation were animal carcasses and pieces of land which were studied at the laboratory and in the field, as many times as the scientists wanted, and also that the small rodents were photographed, filmed and caught doing their labour, and brought to the laboratories too, and the cuts were compared and found identical to those misterious "too clean" cuts previously reported. Their reasons (the mice's reasons) were reasonable. We are invading their habitats and altering their habits, so they look for .. beef.

May I answer some of your other questions?

1) Their is no other side of a black hole in the geometrical sense. Scientists speculate that the center of black holes are a passage to another dimension or to another state of energy. Nothing proved yet.

2) Quarks, atoms and even molecules can't be seen, but its presence and characteristics are being studied from ancient times because they are widely available and can be put under instruments, measured, weighted, destroyed, their radiation detected, their chemical behavior predicted, artificial atoms created, etc.etc, all things that don't happen with UFOs.(Please, radar detection of an object is not proof of an alien vehicle)

3) Until now in this debate I didn't see anybody who denies the existence of extraterrestrial life, only it was said that it was not proved yet, but all we accept that the probabilities are extremely high. But, Alas, we have NOT travelled to the stars, and we know what a tremendous challenge it will be.

Un abrazo,
Andrés
BTW, the "Disclosure Project" is a complete swindle. They only want to invite researchers to license their findings to their company, because they have nothing. See for yourself :)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:44 AM

I think I'll point out that it was a tremendous challenge for Inuit hunters to travel to the British Isles in their kayaks too. :-) In fact, none ever did! This did not stop the British from travelling to North America in wooden ships, however. We now do it in airplanes. Captain Cook and Lord Nelson would not have believed the airliner concept to be possible, but we have done it...about a century later. How about that?

We have this theory that faster-than-light speed is not possible. The theory may be incorrect. There may be a way of travelling that does not even involve "speed" in the sense that we think of it, yet easily allows fast interstellar travel.

If so, present day authorities on this planet would not believe in it. Their assumptions in that regard might be incorrect.

As for slaughtered cattle's bodies out in the country, I never really had any opinion about what was causing that, though it did occur to me that Earthly cultists or Satanists might be doing it for ritual purposes. Your story is quite interesting, Escamillo.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:02 AM

Yes, that's why I said "tremendous challenge it will be" and not "it would be", because I'm confident that some day the human race will find a way to the stars.

For a moment, please let's go back to phantasy, which is one of the most productive and fascinating territories of the mind. If there is a hole in the time-space, a worm tunnel through which some energy could travel through transformations, then it is not reasonable to expect solid ships and material creatures to visit us, or to send to the stars. It would be reasonable to find other forms of energy containing a message. Measurable energy, repeatable experiments. Perhaps we are immersed in signals from another civilization, and can't see them because we have not reached the threshold technology, as a primitive Martian who lives in a place bombarded by our radio and TV transmissions and can't notice them because he doesn't know how to build a receiver.

The chances of being "focused" by transmissions from outer space are extremely low, because they would need to SPOT us, but the first signal of life that we have sent to space is very weak, responds to relativity laws, and have been travelling only 80 years or so. Did they discover a way to send a wide and strong signal to large areas? May be.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:08 AM

The arrogance of you earthlings! Why do you think you are so important to make any other life form interested in your planet

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

So far, I've counted Foolestroupe, and now noddy who have come out of the Alien Cosmic Closet, not to forget kitties. Come on guys, time to come clean. Tell us when and where you arrived, and what you think of this planet..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:01 AM

"My father was the keeper of the Asteroid light,
And he slept with a Martian one fine night.
And from this union, there came three-
Two were mustants, and the other was me.

   Yo,ho, ho- the jets run free.
   Oh for a life at the speed of c!"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:08 AM

Captain Cook and Lord Nelson would not have believed the airliner concept to be possible, but we have done it...about a century later. How about that?


How about learning to count, LH? For your settlement to be correct we would have had to cross the Atlantic by airliner in about 1905, a century after Nelson's death at Trafalgar. Cook's dates were 1728-1779.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM

Don't nitpick, Amos. :-) That's why I said about a century later...I was well aware that I would have to to go to an encyclopedia and check dates to get it exactly right, and I was kind of in a hurry at the time, so I didn't want to do that. I made an approximate statement merely to illustrate a point. The dates aren't of any importance to establishing the point.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

Gort, Klatu, Barata, Nickto.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:35 AM

but Captain Cook and Lord Nelson could have understood the CONCEPT of an airliner if someone who knew the principles were there:
"See, it's like a big bird with a flaming asshole, made out of a funny metal like iron, only lighter."....etc. And we could have made wooden & paper models to demonstrate gliding...etc..

There nothing much about a plane that required concepts alien to the the mind. Faster than light travel is another deal altogether. Sc-Fi writers and theoretical physicists play with concepts that they think might have meaning, but no one is sure yet if is more than clever linguistic creativity. Accelerating a solid body past the speed at which it attains infinite mass, ot bypassing that situation altogether does not necessarily work, just because we can say the words.

It IS a fascinating idea, and I HOPE it is someday possible, but it is hardly the basis for serious claims about other experiences.

One neglected, but important rule of logic is "from false premises, anything follows."

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:47 AM

One neglected, but important rule of logic is "from false premises, anything follows."

This may be the most important single post ever made on the Cat. The infinite number of possible ramifications of falsification is mind-boggling and makes it very clear where the seeker of truth has to pay attention: on the premises.

Almost any religion you care to name has a few or many false assumptions in it, and as a result they become overblown with bizarre complexities and entities called upon to exist to compensate for the premises, and so on. Many medieval scientific theories are similarly complicated (the subject of alchemy comes to mind) and riddled with complexities that can be rapidly reduced to clarity not by addressing them in themselves (which just multiplies the issues) but by finding the false premises.

The weighty importance and value in use of this rule is downright stunning.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:05 PM

well...I think it is important, Amos..but like other 'important' points, it is easy to ignore and flatly refuse to consider. You make the point in your follow-up.

"...entities called upon to exist to compensate for the premises"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:12 PM

but what proof do we have that "from false premises, anything follows." is true?

this is SO complicated!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:28 PM

MM:

Observation of the way data works -- which you will have to observe for yourself -- supports the proposition that human minds rapidly trace and predict based on present data and make decisions about their extrapolated futures.

One false premise, therefore, can lead to a complex array of decisions. Just for example, suppose for amoment you were to adopt the belief that "women were inherently untrustworthy and treacherous". IMagine how much more careful you would have to be in all your dealings, and how many complicated rules you might adoptas a result of that premise.

ALthough I do not have time to re-research it right now, I am sure several wars have been begun on the strength of false data being presented as accurate. How much complexity is that?

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:59 PM

And just think of all the sex you missed out on. Please go ahead and adopt that one and then give them my phone number.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:22 PM

There ARE people who subscribe to that premise, Amos! Here are some other false premises which can distort one's powers of observation:

All men are beasts!

All women either whores or virgins!

You can't trust anybody!

Life is hard, then you die.

Nothing works out! (a former girlfriend of mine subscribed to that one...and nothing did, for her...or she didn't notice if it did)

Making money is all that really matters.

Winning is all that really matters.

Not getting caught is all that really matters.

Looking good is all that matters.

Pleasing other people is what really matters.

"All women are naturally attracted to ME, because I have a big penis, and that basically makes me pretty irresistible to 'em, know'm'sayin'???"

LOL!!! All of the above are horribly false premises, and just look at the various idiotic and destructive behaviours they lead to. Yet they are surprisingly common beliefs in modern society.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

Okay I'm back.
A little quick search under bovine mutilation turned up many hits with at least four theories being followed. The info given seems to be mostly about incidents occuring in North America.

1. UFO's (go figure!)
2. Mutilation by unknown Gov't agency testing tissues for radiation poisoning from weapons tests.
3. Mutilation for the purpose of taking samples to determine if infectious diseases are among the herds (so as not to alarm the general public about contamination)
4. Mutilation by cultists for religeous rituals

Seems they haven't herd (couldn't resist!) about the findings of the South American scientific community.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:27 PM

Bruce: Bah-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a!!! Mmmm..a-a-a-a-a-a!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:33 PM

Chief - you lost me - What findings of the South American scientific community and how are those findings relavent to mutilation of cattle? (And the Big theory I heard about that is that it was vindictive sheepherders)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:44 PM

MM:

See the posts regarding Argentinian investigations on cattle mutilations from Andres (Escamillo), upthread.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

Mario...Once you **understand** how logic works, it is simply one of the things that is understood. It becomes like "if no A, then no B...no A, therefore no B". It is not intended to prove that there IS no B, but only that B requires A.

Likewise, logic will not tell you whether or not there are UFOs or whether or not FTL travel is possible, but only that IF you choose a starting assumption that is not in fact true, then ANYTHING you deduce from that MAY not be true, and is not a justifiable conclusion.
(Note...you 'may' hold a position that is, in fact, true, but for entirely other reasons than what you claim. If I claim that it does not rain much in Arizona because the Navajos aren't doing the chants correctly, you would find it easy to see the flaw in my argument...which does not alter the fact that it doesn't rain much in Arizona. But you can TEST the Arizona rainfall amounts...
The problem lies in making claims which are not easily verifiable, which you defend by premises which are also not easily verifiable. "The 'flying saucers' we see come from an alien civilization". This makes several assumptions. 1)That we do, if fact, see solid, real UFOs, 2)That there are, in fact, alien civilizations, 3) That it is possible to travel FROM other worlds to here. Maybe even a couple of others.

Further..*grin*..(you KNEW there'd be a 'further', hmmm?) if a statement like "The 'flying saucers' we see come from an alien civilization" is used AS a premise to explain something else, it has a related logical fallacy in it: assuming the consequent, which means you are assuming there IS at least one alien civilization to justify flying saucers coming from it.

Now, all this logic stuff is tedious and mind-numbing until you get used to doing it without memorizing all the details and rules (sort of like you calculate how many portions of food in a pot for the # of guests you expect, without stopping to call up the rules of arithmetic and fractions.) But after you accept that certain rules of logic just 'are', you actually can make decisions better... and see why someone else's claims, that you just 'know' are wrong, are really not well proven.

Once again....NONE of this 'proves' that there are no aliens, out-of-body experiences, Gods, psychic phenomena, higher planes of existence, or elves under Ireland...but it does should give some feeling for what kinds of claims are testable and what 'good' evidence consists of, and what is reasonable to deduce from various experiences. Of course, it is dangerous too...*wry grin*...it can lead to terribly disconcerting reassessment of old beliefs! "Wow! Maybe 'stepping on a crack' WONT 'break my mother's back'!"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:23 PM

This is a link to a 1980 report on the investigation of cattle mutilation in New Mexico USA and other places, with the same conclusion as the University of Buenos Aires and others from Argentina. I couldn't read the entire report, but it seems that they have not provoked the phenomena under control and "at will", like the gaucho University did, but the close examination of the bodies brought them to the same conclusion.

It is hard to find two or three official reports among the ocean of UFOlogist's opinions who have never seen a mutilated animal. It seems that the further away they are from the place of the facts, the more entitled they are to form an opinion and publish. :)

Operation Animal Mutilation Report

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:39 PM

AHA! obviously the rats are alien rodents - Which is obvious once you realize there are NO rat-headed gods in the Egyptian pantheon because they were CONCEALING THEIR EXISTANCE!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:06 PM

MM:

You remind me of a joke in which a redneck learns a little logic, and then goes back and tells his bubba buddy that since his friend owns no weed-whacker, he must be queer, right?

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

What do you expect of a guy who shares his single functioning brain cell with 17 other people via sub-space hyper-ganglionic connections?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:26 PM

Here's what I assume, Bill. I assume there are probably a great many "alien" civilizations out there in the Universe. I assume that a saw a craft from one of those...in all probability. I assume that they have found a faster-than-light method of travel...or a method using a system that isn't defined in terms of speed, but rather in terms of present location. That would be a travel system completely unknown to our present civilization. I assume our governments know about these visitations. I assume they are choosing not to admit to their knowledge of that or publicize it. I assume they are covering up some of the evidence. I assume that the great number of other people who have seen what they deemed to be such alien craft, and those to whom I have spoken about it, are neither crazy nor stupid.

Here's what I KNOW. I saw that vehicle, it was a vehicle, and it exhibited abilities of manuever that were most unusual, to say the least.

We all do the best we can with the information we have at hand.

My assumptions are based on my "best guess", not on total certainty about the matter. That is why they are assumptions, not knowledge.

- LH

Subject: one night at the lil Ale Inn
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/alongface.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM

Hey, Little Hawk, forget the goat. Dounel, you are my new best hope. Did you get phone numbers? I gotta know. Soonest.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:51 PM

That is cruel and heartless of you, Bill, to abandon Susie the Goat just when she is in great peril! (see weiner dog and baptists thread)

Donuel - that is a strange looking quartet. Is the one on the extreme right when looking at the picture possibly the young Bob Dylan in drag, circa 1965-66?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

Dang! I mean "Bruce", not Bill. See how upset I am about it?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

Hey, full circle. That would explain the VS ad.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:01 PM

Whew. That's a relief, LH. Thought Bill had his hands on her. But that Dylan in drag thing WOULD explain the Victoria's Secret thing. Love it when a plan comes together.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:03 PM

Brucie if all you need is a date have you tried the hard up girl's club?

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/3collage2.gif

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:04 PM

But, Donuel, NONE of them look like Little Hawk's goat. What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:34 PM

no goats for me...not since I discovered alpacas!

Little Hawk..that statement is durn close to something I can live with! It says very little that would seem to 'expect' others to make the same assumptions. It states the basics about your experience, and acknowleges that other explanations are indeed possible.

In fact, the most difficulty I have with it is understanding what "...a system that isn't defined in terms of speed, but rather in terms of present location" might mean as a practical matter. If you are able to wrap your head around that concept, great! I can't seem to grasp it, and that can either be MY problem, or a linguistic thing used to state something with no direct referent. (I simply do not know which)
It would be fun to sit around RT someday and explore this without the time delays and 'flatness' of all text.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

I think the worst assumption to make is that something doesn't or can't exist based on what we presently know, think, or are capable of doing. There was a point in our history wherein they thought that breaking the sound barrier was impossible. They reached what they called the "wall" and couldn't get past it. with some redesign of wings, body and tail and a good rocket, not only was it possible but it was smooth sailing from then on and through 2 to 6 times the speed of sound. The sound barrier on land was just broken a few years ago.

One day perhaps we will find throught the manipulation of energies that we can circumvent the critical mass theory and break the speed of light.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:54 PM

I didn't mean to detract from the findings. The only thing that I could find that made me pause was that the rodent found to be responsible doesn't reside throughout the range of mutilation sites.

I have seen a lot of animal carcases that have been fed upon by scavengers. I've never seen anyone that I would describe to have been made with surgical precision and there was almost always blood on the ground. Both of these are necessary to the reports that originated this phenomenon.

On Blackholes...I did some research, well, a little research anyway, and it seems the current theory is that a black hole is created when a star has burned off it's nuclear fuel and the expansion forces caused by the reactions is no longer able to compete with the terrific gravitational forces and therefore the star collapses in upon itself, the remnaining mass being compacted to the point where it's relative size is negligible (almost not matter). It also is a given that the event horizon of a black hole expands with each bit of matter which enters it.

The only question I have is:
Will there not come a time when the compaction forces of the gravity at the center of the blackhole growing larger with each bit of mass sucked into the event horizon, cause a complete failure of the forces holding the remaining "debris" together which would then cause a catastrophic explosion thus recreating to a certain degree the star which gave birht to the black hole in the first place?

Sort of an Astral Phoenix?

My head hurts again.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:02 PM

Bill D, Little Hawk and Donuel,

My heart was all I had, and now it's gone,
I should have left the bloody blinkers on.

WOW!

Bill, does she have a friend?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:30 PM

God, that is one FETCHING alpaca all right!!! Woof! If Malcolm Buggeroll gets a look at this one there is going to be hell to pay...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:43 PM

Bill:

The key to what LH is saying, I think, is that our notion of spacetime and therefore motion is that space is always contiguous and unlimited (or circular) -- wherever you go in it and look out, there is more! And, you have to go through each part of it to get to the next. This is partly because that is the way space looks to a meat body and always has, we suppose.

If you could address space randomly by some definition of where you chose to be, rather than serially (having to go through B, C, and D to get to E) then FTL would no longer be a problem -- kind of like worm-holes at will or somp'n, I guess.

There's a technology we cvould really use!! Give it a nine-digit location and it drills a wormhole to it from where it is. Wow!

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Yeah, something like that. Any part of a hologram contains the entire image. The Universe may be like that too. All in One, and One in all. If you know how to move according to its functioning you can instantly be anywhere you want to focus on. Matter of fact, that's how thought works, and that's how the soul travels...when it chooses to.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: MMario
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

ermmm - isn't that a MALE alpaca?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

...and THAT Alpaca was 'average'...do a Google 'images' search and the Alpaca equivilents of Playboy will entice you to...Lord knows what! soft, cuddly, cute...the original sweater girl! *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:47 AM

Chief, many species migrate easily when forced by a change in their habitats. The investigators did reproduce the phenomena just leaving dead animals for some nights. They planted cameras and spent some cold nights observing, and could see the mice coming and doing their macabre job. The problem turns again to WHOM you trust, Universities or Ufologists. This time the FBI, CIA, RAF, USAF, did not show up. (OH,NO, they didn't send the mice! :))

Chief, LH, AMos: that's what I like to see, creative imagination. What will happen if they really come to visit us? And what if we go to their place? Or more realistically, what if we can communicate? Will we change our minds?

Un abrazo,
Andrés
(I can send to you an alpaca shawl, BTW)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

It was mentioned above that nothing exceeds the speed of light. That may turn out to be false. Science suspects that gravity does. The problem has been fitting that notion into a unified field theory. We'll see. (That was pretty good, and entirely by accident.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:34 PM

brucie...it's a pretty tricky thing to pin down. Even if it were discovered that it did, the idea of moving solid matter 'real durn fast' has some problems. All I personally expect is to maybe finally hear some 'signal' detected that has been going for thousands of years.

from this page
"Strictly speaking, gravity is not a "force" in general relativity, and a description in terms of speed and direction can be tricky"

also, a newer story... 'speed' of gravity measured

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM

Okay before I drag out an old question I should let you know that according to science light in the form of protons has mass.
Anything which is inside another object which is traveling is traveling at the speed of the object in which it is traveling.
So, given the theory (and I stress theory) that nothing can travel faster than light, what happens when you turn on a moving car's headlights? Is the light, in the form of protons having mass, traveling at the speed of light + the speed of the moving car? Is it therefore traveling at past the speed of itself?

I know this sounds like a stupid question but I've never heard a satisfactory answer to this.

Also, in today's paper, scientists have postulated that the presence of a large body in space "warps" space and time around it. If this "warping" can be accomplished by a simple gravitical body could we not find a way to generate a field to "warp" space and time allowing an alternative to straight forward space travel?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM

CC:

No -- it is traveling from the front of the car outward at less than c due to being inside atmosphere and the EMF field of the earth, I expect. There is an apparency from te observer on the side of the road that it should be the car's velocity plus c, but at least according to Einstinian equations the closer to c, the greater the mass.

I could be wrong about that, and I am only a confused amateur.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:15 AM

No, light travels at app. 300,000 km/sec in a vacuum. That is its speed, period. If it leaves from an object that is travelling at 200,000 km/sec, light will only thavel another 100,000 km/sec faster than that. That is light's constant 'speed'. If the object were travelling at 300,000 km/sec already, then the light wouldn't 'leave' the object, because it would already be travelling at its speed. Basically, no more, no less. However, that's only what traditional science would have us believe. That is starting to be challenged now, because some scientists are questioning WHY everything has to be 'made' to fit inside the relativity/big bang box. Vested interest tends to shut them out and shut them down.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:54 AM

Rucie,

There's no vested interest in avoiding a theory that explains redshift and also allows for FTL, but it hasn't surfaced yet, as far as I know. So far, the General Theory has been born out by measurements.

There may be some close-minded individuals who can't get their wits around a nw theory, and their may be geneuine analysts who find flaws in it, but I dobn't think vested interests is a fair accusation.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:16 AM

This is an excellent, though lengthy explanation of the Michelson-Morley Experiment which destroyed the theory of the existence of an ether. Light was supposed to move immersed in that ether, and its speed would have been relative to it: Michelson-Morley Experiment

If you make a search on the phrase "front of a tank", you will see a good explanation of independence of the light speed respect to the source of emmission.

According to general relativity, at speeds near the speed of light, not only the mass tends to infinite, but also time tends to lenghten, and space tends to SHRINK ! At a reasonable speed, it would not be bad to gain some pounds but be able to live longer and travel further. At least, Nature gives as a hint.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:03 AM

Whether the speed of light slowed down, stayed unchanged or speeded up depends upon your frame of reference(s).

But in my frame of reference(s), the speed of light is a Constant.
This is to make the work of Physics simpler at the expense of curved Space, as Nothing is free in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

Another post for the same point:

The Newtonian addition of velocities considered valid for many centuries and explained above by CC is incorrect. Period. However, for velocities small compared to the velocity of light the wrong old theory and the not yet found wrong new theory Special theory of relativity come to for all practical purposes identical predictions.

At speeds closer to the speed of light both theories come to different predictions. Some explanations above what happens when light leaves a body that is already moving at very high speed are wrong (as already pointed out by Andres). The light always leaves the body with light speed. So when a body moves with 200,000 km/s an observer on the body will see the light leave with 300,000 km/s. However, a stationary observer outside of the body will see the light travel not with 500,000 km/s, but with 300,000 km/s.

The math behind that is very easy, we had it in my very first physics course. In the language of math it is beautifully clear and easy, when translated into normal language it becomes unbelievable. To paraphrase a scientist (I don't find the citation):

If you claim that you understand it you have not really understood it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:15 AM

I love this thread! I plan to take it with me when I leave this planet. It will give the folks back home such a good giggle. Thanks in advance, and do keep it up, as I now have Cosmic Broadband (MUCH faster than the speed of light, by the by) and will be checking in periodically...

Fond Regards,

William Shatner (being graciously channeled through Ellenpoly)..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:35 AM

Amos,

I will address your remark above tonight or tomorrow. We disagree. But, because I know you are a Shatner fan I will not be rude. (Sorry, pressed for time right now.)

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

Instead of getting bogged down on just the speed of light...I would like to point out a possible reason that light is relativistic in space. It exists in space time and space time is in motion. We tend to think of it as expansion.

Relativism allows for an unfolding of spacetime that at first is very compressed at a singularity (lots of space time in a small area)

We can say the universe is expanding or you can think of an unfolding of spacetime in which expansion is only a point of view since things could just as well be shrinking to fit the unfolding of more space time.

Think of the universe as a balloon. The ballon is not expanding to an external observer. However, to an internal observer, the ballon is expanding. Things are getting farther and farther away. However, in reality, things are just getting "smaller" because the expansion is caused by the unwrapping of space-time. In other words: wrapped space-time looks like unwrapped one and instead of it being streching the fabric of space-time, it is actually unfolding.

Another way of seeing it... as I tried to insinuate in the black hole thread... We are in a "black hole" inside another universe. This black hole had a singularity in its centre. The space-time was extremely folded (lots of space-time in a tiny bit of "space"). The singularity in this black hole exploded and it started to expand. For an external observer the black hole is not expanding. For an internal observer, the space-time is unfolding and expanding. We have the illusion that it is expanding into nothing.

This would result in a new kind of evolution: from stars to new universes.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM

The issue I would underscore on this nebulous front is space itself. Look at it and you see it homogenously spreading outward indefinitely, a sort of matt against which all things may be and move. It is easy to fall in to the belief, since it looks this way in all directions and all the time, that we, too are in space in the same way that pebbles are, or galaxies.

But the problem is that it isn't easy to define space or explain what brings it about, or how it is related to energy at a fundamental level. Michelson-Morley appeared to demonstrate that it is not energetic in the sense that light is; but on the other hand it is not evanescent Truth. So what the fuck is it? Answer that and you will be on the threshold of a generation of free energy, instantaneous translocation, quality telepathy and gawd-knows-wot-all. But it needs an answer that is qualitative, not just a mess of measurings.

I believe that space is a function of "life viewing asserted dimensions", but that may be wrong.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Gypsyfree
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Never seen a UFO, but I have seen the Loch Ness Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

Well, that's interesting. What exactly did you see? And when?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:22 PM

To heck with the Loch Ness Monster. Have you seen Little Hawk's goat?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:48 PM

brucie, you may find it in the Vladimir the Inhaler thread.. or at least, you may find someone looking for it there..

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

There was some Guest trying like hell to get my goat the other day, Bruce, and even he/she couldn't find it! :-) I think my goat has been abducted by aliens!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:41 AM

Amos - earlier in the thread I said UFO's do exist and described what I had seen. What I failed to mention was that I saw another UFO, at a later date in the same vicinity. (Between Vashon Island, Wash. and the Mainland, near Bremerton). Bremerton is a Naval base.

This time I was not alone. It was an entirely different sighting. This time it was night. My husband and I and his friend were listening to music when I spotted what I thought to be lightning. We rushed to the porch to watch.

From behind a range of hills, a strobe of light was emanating. The colours were concentric circles of every colour in the rainbow and they were pulsing. Nobody lived over there! It was acres and acres of forests and hills.

Lots of people saw that one. They tried to tell us it was the Northern Lights but NO..........it was light from a central energy source sitting behind the hill. I've seen Northern Lights before, they are never so uniform and precise as what we saw.

I'm not so sure about aliens, though. Never seen em.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 02:02 AM

Of all the threads I have started (especially with most of the others mostly being on serious musical topice!), this is now the longest!

Right! That's it! I've had enough! Everybody go home!

What! They're still here!

Right! I'm off!

Turn the lights out when you leave!

Bye!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM

Well Foolestroupe, I am home but I have to tell you about my experience tonight.
I am convinced I met an alien child tonight.
His brain capacity met more than that of a dolphins. He was a human with the head size of abnormal. He was adopted.
He has always thought he was something of an abnormal. He thanked me for being so blunt and telling him he was either an alien child or an offspring of a dolphin.
His friends over-heard the conversation and came up to us making obsene dolphin cries, but that is okay, because they instict=ivly knew he was beyond a so called normal.
I was blown away that he told me he had always thought he was of a different spiecies.
Looking at this man you all would have came to the same conclusion. I just had the balls to talk to him openly about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:39 AM

Yes, you're right. We DID take that poor abused goat. If you earthlings can't even treat your four legged friends well enough not to have them come bleating to us for rescue (and yes, the cats are safe now as well- we've provided them with invisible "brucie-be-gone" shields) how in the name of Alpha Centuri can you expect us to want to sit down with you folks and party?

PS-I'll still be checking in this thread. I see that Foolstroupe has also asked for a transfer to another galaxy far far away, and his request is being held in a cue.)

Yours channeling again through Ellenpoly, William Shatner

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:04 AM

zzxdas.. .alk######nb.. l;zdlknvnc...

[This channel closed]

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

I take it this means you want us to start a different UFO thread?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:16 AM

Well actually, Little Hawk,

I notice that we are now only one message behind the the count of the thread "In every thread someone has to be last!", so, no, don't start a new thread, just let 'er rip...

:-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,HEAD OF THE CIA
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:18 AM

Okay You have had you fun now The thread is officialy CLOSED due to National Security .
Agents will be calling at addresses of all who have posted on this site and have their Computers and any other documents relating to this confiscated by order of the Government of the US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:47 AM

Oh Rubbish!

The _REAL_ CIA would want you all to keep rabbiting on, cause you know ...


we can keep better tabs on you thatway...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:09 PM

Hey fooolestroupe, before you take off for galaxies unknown, how do you do that neat little yellow writing? Is it only limited to your species, or can you share??

Yours sincerely,
William Shatner still channeling through Ellenpoly, though she's complaining of haemmorhoids because of me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM

Look here - click on the View : Source button in your browser. It uses the HTML for 'font = color' command.

There are also several Mudcat threads on HTML tricks.

But Ellenpolly, you have only asked that question for the benefit of others, haven't you, since we can communicate telepathically.

We're both telepathetic, you know ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,HEAD OF THE CIA
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:22 AM

Now Look here I told to stop it.




Please.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM

The night sky is full of stars, and every one of them is a sun.
There are more that you can't see than there are that you can.
The day sky is similarly loaded with suns but you can't see them because of the light from our sun.
It is a pretty wild sort of a theory suggesting that none of them support planets with life, and an equally unlikely suggestion that none of that life is more intelligent and advanced than ours.
Typical human arrogance.
It hasn't even been proven to my satisfaction that we (humans) are the most intelligent creatures on this planet, let alone anywhere else.
Of course there are UFOs. They are smarter than us. They know better than to try to make contact.

John

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:13 AM

There is simply no use in making contact with a paranoid bunch of tribal governments who are busily engaged in building massive armaments, spying on each other, fighting pointless wars, and attempting to dominate the planet. Such people are not worth contacting, because they are dangerous and untrustworthy in the extreme. They are violent criminals.

For that reason, the visitors stopped trying to deal directly with our governments about 5 decades ago, and are instead dealing with private individuals who are much more receptive and less dangerous anyway.

The people on this planet are on average considerably superior in a moral sense to the governmental structures that rule over them. They deserve better. The trouble is, there are no mechanisms in place allowing the people to substantially alter the situation of their corrupt governments. Therefore we must each deal with our individual circumstances in the best way we can.

The public is ready for open alien contact. The government, military, and scientific elites are NOT ready for it, and they are making every effort to conceal it, block it, and misinform people.

As long as that situation endures, contact will be discreet and unofficial, and made with private individuals where and when it is appropriate and workable.

Our governments operate by force and coercion and deception. Our visitors don't, because they are of good intention.

If they were of bad intention we would have been conquered very quickly, and it would probably have happened in the late 40's.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:23 AM

My door is always open...to those who have the key.

Fondly,
William Shatner, still channeling through Ellenpoly though she said she'd really like it if I'd find someone else for a while. Any takers?

(PS-Of course you are quite right, Little Hawk. But then we've had our visual receptors on you for a long time. Keep up the good work...WS)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

Thanks, Bill! You are right on, man. :-) Thanks to Ellenpoly too.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:51 PM

Almost hate to bring this one back but Mexican Air Force pilots on routine patrol filmed 11 UFOs with infrared cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:08 PM

Chief Chaos - When? Do you have an article about this?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:38 PM

Here's one:http://www.rense.com/general52/udo.htm

Some other data: http://www.ufoarea.com/events_mexico.html

No hard information, though...


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:34 PM

I've seen parts of the video and the first thing that made me wonder is that these lights move like locked to each other. They have no velocity relative to each other, for quite a long time, but move together.

That reminds the famous Capitol/capital UFOs detected over Washington in 1952 (also 11 in some reports). Later it had been detected that these lights mirrored the formation of street lights down on the ground.

Under certain weather conditions (temperature inversion weather) pockets of warm air can lead to signals detectable by radar, but not by the eye.

Listing possibilities is not an explanation yet, but I'd start with looking at the weather conditions at the time of the sighting (in March) and would look for earthly sources of light mirroring the stable pattern of celestial lights.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 03:37 PM

Clearly the Mexicans are seeing objects that are not light effects, but solid, intelligently maneuvering vehicles, both by day and by night. Since their media is not controlled (or unduly influenced) in regards to how it deals with that situation, they are drawing the obvious conclusions that we have visitors. This is good.

The CIA, the USAF, the White House, the Pentagon, and the FBI decided in the late '40's that it would be best to deal with sightings of alien or unexplained flying vehicles in the following fashion: deny them outright, explain them away somehow to the public, or ridicule the ordinary people who reported them. They decided this because they honestly believed that it was the best way to protect (a)the public and (b) themselves!!! from a very embarassing and potentially disastrous situation. Namely:

1. American airspace was being entered at will by unknown vehicles for unknown purposes....those vehicles might be Russian (very scary thought in the late 40's when the Cold War was ramping up and paranoia was already extreme...or they might be extraterrestrial...even more scary thought. If they were extraterrestrial, were they "communist" or potential friends of the "Commies"! (Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, but it didn't to the Cold Warriors in the 40's and 50's, believe me.)

2. The Air Force seemed to have no effective means of shooting down or controlling those vehicles or preventing them violating American air space.

3. The unknowns might be abducting American citizens, again for unknown purposes, and they might be planning a full scale invasion.

4. The Army, Navy, and Air Force apparently had no weapons or systems capable of doing much, if anything, about it.

5. If the public were to realize the helplessness of the government and armed forces regarding the unknown visitors it would possibly cause a general panic, and certainly cause a tremendous loss of public confidence in their military and political leaders.

6. Accordingly, it was deemed absolutely vital to keep wraps on the whole business until the government and military found a way to re-establish control over their own airspace.

They have so far failed to do that...56 years later!

Now if you tell one lie, you must soon tell more lies to cover that one. If you tell a thousand lies, you must tell 10,000 more to cover those...and so it goes. The longer you lie, the more catastrophic is the loss of prestige and authority when you finally admit publicly to those lies.

And that is why the lid is kept so tightly on this whole affair by the government, the military, the science community, and the media.

Perfectly sincere and well-intentioned people have been convinced that they are protecting the public by lying to them. Other perfectly sincere people have simply bought the official line that there are no alien vehicles. Most of those who know better, and are in high postions are keeping their mouths shut about it, partly for their own safety.

That is very unfortunate.

The Mexicans are not subject to the same controls in regards to this matter, so in that respect (if not in some others) they are a freer society than the USA or Canada.

It might be of interest to some that the President of Brazil in 1958 stated publicly (on Feb 21/58) that daylight photos taken of several flying saucer type vehicles by Brazilian Navy personnel on Jan 6/58 were legitimate and authentic. The photos were taken by the Brazilian sailors and immediately afterward they were developed in the ship's darkroom with the Captain Alberto Bacellar witnessing the whole process to ensure that it was done without tampering. The ship was the Almirante Saldanha. 48 seamen, the ship's captain, and some civilian observers all saw the UFOs and considered them to be alien vehicles of some kind.

This was a rare case of a head of state and a Naval authority breaking the code of silence that has effectively been established over much of the World's media regarding such incidents.

Most people will easily believe or not believe whatever they are told to believe or not believe by the existing authorities. They will ignore what the media ignores. They will repeat what the media says. In that manner a coverup is maintained through the same old methods...deny, explain away, and ridicule.

Now, someone whose sense of emotional security depends on ridiculing me for saying such disturbing things will probably show up here on this thread shortly to post...and...Yeah...it's easy to debunk...Just yell words like "Nonsense! Balderdash! Tripe! Bullshit!" and go on ignoring the enormous backlog of existing evidence of UFO's and the eyewitness reports of hundreds of thousands of people in countries not quite as well controlled as your own...

Or...stop being afraid, for heaven's sake! It's an opportunity for profound change and advancement of the whole human race, not a threat to your existence. If it were any threat, we would have been conquered long ago.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:02 PM

The Brazil UFOs of 1958 are really a good opportunity to learn something new:

a site with links to papers studying this case

But be careful, those only interested in one particular idea might be disappointed.

Anyone who suggests that UFOs are anything but alien spacecraft soon finds out how it feels to be taken apart by a pack of flesh-ripping religious weasels.
(Peter Brookesmith, Fortean Times, May, 2000)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 04:24 PM

It works exactly the same way in both directions, Wolfgang. If you debunk UFOs you will be stridently attacked by those who don't debunk them...if you believe in alien vehicles you will be equally stridently attacked by those who don't. Which type of attack bothers you the most depends entirely on which opinion you favour. :-) People have very strong emotions on this issue, because if it is true that we have space visitors it would be the most vital single matter now confronting humanity, along with a few others like:

nuclear armaments and other deadly WMD's
the ecological situation
the energy supply
war and peace (and terrorism)
overpopulation
food supply
water supply

You see, if we ARE experiencing visitations from more developed and advanced races of beings then it would have the potential to affect absolutely everything on this planet. That makes it damned important. That means that if you believe such visits are occuring, you get pretty upset at the notion of a coverup or a denial of same...because it would amount to a massive betrayal of humanity by their rulers.

Not that we haven't already been betrayed in a number of other ways... :-)

You are not one of the strident debunkers that I was alluding to. I find you balanced and sensible in your statements.

I have myself suggested that some, possibly all unexplained UFO sightings could be of secret government vehicles made on Earth. But I doubt it, that's all. It seems more likely to me that they are alien vehicles that are being seen. I don't think the government would be so arbitrarily reckless or intrusive with its own secret vehicles. It would hide them far better.

I think we are roughly in the position of Tahitians or New Guineans when the first Europeans were arriving on sailing ships...only the visitors in this case have far more subtle interests than acquiring land, gold, and empire. Thank God for that. We would be in very big trouble indeed if everyone out there in the Universe was as crass and materialistic as we are.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 04 - 05:10 PM

The Tahitians and New Guineans could see and touch the Europeans, and did...and got diseases from them. We see lights and funny images on radar which have, as Wolfgang notes, other possible explanations.. ...(yes, yes, and a few puzzling pictures)...

It's all worth investigating...etc, etc...but I sure wish those smart aliens would decide poor Bill & Wolfgang have been teased long enough *grin*...and park a BIG saucer right on the Mall in Wash DC!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 06:23 PM

If they did, Bill, the whole area would be sealed off faster than you can say "Oh, shit!" and you would NOT hear about it on the evening news.

And you said, "The Tahitians and New Guineans could see and touch the Europeans, and did...and got diseases from them."

Uh-huh. Right.

And the available info that is out there right now suggests that hundreds of people have had actual encounters with, and touched alien visitors, and some have gotten sick from contact with alien technology...but you are not one of those people...and you don't have direct proof of it...so why would the real experiences of other people serve to convince you of anything...unless it simultaneously happened to so many millions of people all over the whole World that there was simply no way of denying it or covering it up?

That is the ONLY thing, short of an official announcement by ABC, CBS, and NBC that will ever convince you, Bill, as far as I can see. Although, I guess an encounter of your own might. :-) But then, Bill, you would have to contend with people like yourself who did not consider your anecdote to be convincing proof of anything.

And, boy, would you ever get frustrated with them! :-) You'd probably just give up after awhile and not talk about it anymore. Ever try to convince a dog that he'd be better off not to overeat? He won't listen, and he won't thank you for trying to help him.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:30 PM

"... the whole area would be sealed off faster..." ....but if they were clever and determined aliens, who were now ready to show themselves to EVERYBODY, instead of the lucky "hundreds of people", of which you were a chosen member, they could easily defeat any attempt at censorship, nicht wahr?

BTW--I saw the video today of the latest 'sighting' over Mexico...lights, in formation...blurry sets of 4, 'some' of which got a radar ping...*shrug*
   I don't know what to say about the possibility of li'l 'ol me getting one of the rare "up close & personal" encounters BEFORE they do the big show...I'd like to think I'd say "...well, THAT was interesting! I wonder what it was?" .....rather than "wow, what funny looking shapes and lights---it MUST be visitors from the stars"

I guess it would depend on how clear it all was and what they did...and whether I was alone...and whether I'd had anything to drink,,,etc.

(did you ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land?"...my hero in the book was what they called a "fair witness"...a guy trained to observe and report, but not speculate, for legal proceedings. I'd try to report any personal sighting/encounter with that model in mind.)

(Did YOU ever wonder why you haven't seen more?...Why DO a few folks see lots, and most people see nothing? 'Taint fair!)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 04 - 08:46 PM

Exactly, Bill. They obviously could reveal themselves to absolutely EVERYONE, but they don't! That tells me something very interesting.

1.They don't want to reveal themselves to everybody...or

2. They don't need to...or

3. They don't care if we know whether they're there or not...or

4. They would prefer that most of us didn't know....or

5. They figure we're not ready yet...or

6. They think it would be irresponsible...or

7. They are preparing us be degrees...or

8. They respect us enough to wait until we and our governments are willing and ready to meet them...or...

It's absolutely fascinating, and it indicates that they have not come with the kind of agenda that is typical of us at all. That is very significant.

Think how our typical agenda would seem to a colony of fairly intelligent monkeys. They wouldn't understand us at all. I suspect the aliesn are that far beyond us and that much different in their thinking, and that they have excellent reasons for limiting contact with us at this time.

I'll tell you something, Bill. Human beings are dangerous. If I were coming here from somewhere else I'd be damned careful how I approached the people on this planet. It's a jungle out there. :-) And I don't mean in space, I mean right here on Earth.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 04 - 03:31 AM

LittleHawk has a point - why would they want this planet anyway? If they do invade, it will probably be when we've figured out how to live in peace. Why would aliens want to get involved in this shit? They are probably much more afraid of us than we are of them.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 04 - 04:12 AM

Nice list, Little Hawk, but No. 9 possibility is missing:

There is no 'they' in our skies.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 May 04 - 05:04 AM

I saw a fragment of that sighting on teh news. It looked like pairs of lights locked in fixed distances apart. Looked like refracted headlights.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 13 May 04 - 07:09 AM

May I introduce a comment? I sincerely appreciate the attitude of people who realize the importance of an encounter of civilizations. I also appreciate those who disbelieve of the good intentions of the military and "intelligence" organizations, which of course, are able to establish a cover-up over almost everything.

BUT, why can't they disclose their "evidence" to the universities (which will never take part in a cover-up, BTW) and to the general public? Every article we read about this particular subject of the UFOs, is a new deception. Every UFOlogist organization or individual seems to be hiding out the "real" cases and showing to us only blurry photos, personal anecdotes, and (purposely?) all cases where nothing is left to investigators. Nothing. Not any material evidence. Lots of good intentions and claims for peace in the world. Lots of demands to initiate a serious study of the subject, and lots of complaints against non-believers who "ridicule" their statements. But when someone asks them to share the evidences, they argue that the originators have been threatened, or they are afraid of something, or the evidence has been stolen or isolated by the conspirators. A good policy to prove nothing at all.

Many, a lot many of those Ufo researchers have fallen into ridicule by themselves, for example Dr.Greer, head of the "Disclosure Project" whose contribution consists of claiming for evidences and demanding people to license their findings to his company under really ridiculous abusive conditions.

I accept that, IF some real evidence is on the hands of the military, they will try to cover it up because of all the reasons that LH listed above, but I don't think that the conspiracy will be succesful for a long time. Not for 56 years. AND, in those same 56 years, the UFOlogists did not disclose the "real" cases ! That's cover-up !

I would follow the advice of Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov: look at the skies, far beyond the atmosphere, and far beyond good intentions. Some day "they" will say hello. Or we will say hello first..

IMHO
Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 May 04 - 09:03 AM

I didn't list possibility "9", Wolfgang, because I don't think it is a possibility any longer. Just my opinion.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:10 PM

There is a new idea what the recent Mexican UFOs may have been.

A German expert for UFO sightings, Werner Walter, has told a paper about another possible explanation (don't know whether it is his own idea or someone else's):

The Cantarell oilfields have been in direction of the sight of the warmth detection kit of the planes. The flares common in oilfields can account for the signals.

I know such explanations are more boring than the extraterrestrial hypothesis but I thought you'd like to know nevertheless.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:23 PM

Accch, Wolfgang!! There ya go sticking reality into it again!! It just spoils the fun...ah well, you may be right. :>))

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 01:54 PM

Having actually seen them, Wolfgang...but not in Mexico...I shrug at your explanation. It sounds like the usual grasping at straws to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST, pre-emptive chicken
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:33 PM

You need to see a clinical psycologist LH. You're obsessed ... and wrong. It's embarrassing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 02:51 PM

Little Hawk,

you have seen flares on oilfields and therefore know that this explanation must be wrong? Or you have seen UFOs and therefore each other report of a sighting must necessarily be correct?

What is it that disturbs you when for one particular sighting a mundane hypothesis is brought forward?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:18 PM

How do you figure I'm wrong about something you've never seen, pal? How would you know? Or do you already know everything? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:23 PM

Good answer, LH. Preemptive Chicken, are you m,aking LH wrong on prinmciple? If so , what principle? Is itr really a principle or just a "idee fixèe"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:24 PM

You know perfectly well what I've seen, Wolfgang, although you don't accept my explanation of it. But you weren't there. I have nothing to prove to you, because there is nothing I ever could hope to prove to you, short of providing you with the actual experience. I am not empowered to do that.

What disturbs me is exactly what disturbs you. Only in reverse. That is why we have the opposite reactions to these matters. I don't expect to change you, and you should not expect to change me.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:32 PM

Oh, Guest, there is a friend of mine who is a very gifted Qi Gong instructor. I live in a smallish place where most people have never heard of Qi Gong. When he does his practicing in the park, doing Tai Chia poses, certain of these ignorant people become very disturbed, because they don't know what he is doing or why (not that it's dangerous or anything....just unfamiliar to them). One woman remarked, "You shouldn't do that in public!" Tai Chi poses, for god's sake! Another guy roaring around on a jetski started screaming, "That is embarrassing! That's so embarrassing!" He was apparently deeply offended.

You remind me of that guy. I think that you probably know nothing about this subject, and you are speaking from purblind ignorance. I've met professional pilots, civil and military, who have seen what they could only describe as "alien craft". Should they all see clinical psychologists too? You don't impress me at all. You are the one who is embarrassed, not me. And I think you have reason to be. You're ignorant and cocksure, lost in a World that is far more complex than you think it is.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 03:48 PM

Correction: "Tai Chi" not Tai Chia.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 07:06 PM

LH - Do so!

Wolfgang - Do not!

LH - Do!

Wolfgang - Don't!

LH - I saw them with my own eyes!

Wolfgang - You couldn't have.

LH - But I did.

Wolfgang - You saw something else, that's all.

LH - No, I didn't.

Wolfgang - But you must have.

LH - How do you figure?

Wolfgang - Because they don't exist.

LH - Do! Science proves it. Reason is on my side.

Wolfgang - Don't! Science proves it. Reason is on my side.

...tune in 5 or 10 years from now for the thrilling continuation of this fruitful and open-minded dialogue...which will sound exactly the same as it does now unless our alien visitors decide to land and abduct Wolfgang or me in the meantime. :-)

(*Wolfgang, please take the above joke in the humorous way it is intended, and do not analyze it exhaustively, okay?)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 07:37 PM

I have never cared who though what about UFOs and their origin.

We live in a constant state of cover up, and people are truly afraid to say they think ETs exist.

I have said before--and I'll say again--I have seen a UFO and also had a glimpse into another 'place'. You don't believe me, don't. That's cool. However, remember this: the Manhattan Project was hushed for years. So don't ever assume that governments don't hush things.

Try to get into Pine Gap or Groom Lake. Let me know how that works out.

No doubt many UFOs are lights, flares, things we misinterpret. OK. That doesn't say UFOs or ETs don't exist. To quote Dylan, "You'll be right from your side and I'll be right from mine." And those of you who think they don't exist: stop talking about them. GRIN.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 07:40 PM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 08:53 PM

But sometimes they ain't "lights, flares". They is like perfectly clear images of aircraft that don't look like airplanes because they are, indeed shaped like saucers. Okay more tike an upside down saucer on top of a shallow bowl. And they rotate counter-clockwise. And there are lights from window like things. And they have the ability to hover.

That's the one I saw.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:20 PM

I read a book a few years ago by an American physicist, Stanton Friedman, i think his name was. It had copies of documents that he had gained through FOI which referred to a a US govt committee whose mission was to study "and interact with" UFOs.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 09:30 PM

Yes, and what do we do about clinical psychologists who have themselves seen such a vehicle? :-) To whom do we send them in order to satisfy the skeptic? My point being, qualified persons from every walk of life, including certain well-respected heads of state, have seen what they believed to be alien vehicles. This weights larger than the dogmatic asssertions of people who insist that if they have NOT seen something, it must therefore not exist. Their ilk have held back every advance in human understanding since the dawn of civilization.

Any new truth or understanding is first laughed at and ridiculed by the conventional mind, then resisted most strenuously and sometimes violently, and finally becomes the new status quo, after which almost everyone says "I knew it all along!"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 10:26 PM

"Try to get into Pine Gap or Groom Lake. Let me know how that works out. "

In 1983, with 800 women from all over Australia, I went and camped in the central australian desert, near Pine Gap. We DID try and get in, I was in the front row as we marched on the facility. 800 women lined up against the gate, rattling and shaking it, around twenty police officers were on the other side. I was in the front row, after a tussle with a policewoman, I pulled the bolt out of the gate, enabling it to be opened. 111 women burst through and were arrested for entering a militray zone. They all gave their name as Karen Silkwood. One of the things we discovered later that evening, around the campfire, in the desert under the stars, was that twin sisters had been there, one in police uniform on one side of the fence, the other in her Tshirt and jeans on the other side, with the protesting women. but, yes, we couldnt do that now, its surrounded by razor wire.

brucie, as someone who has been to another place you are more qualified than anyone else here to comment on this thread. I would like to hear about that sometime, if you ever decide to want to share that.

freda (writing from Dungog, NSW, inside as snow is expected on nearby Barrington Tops - its freezing here).

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jun 04 - 10:55 PM

SO freda -- you're not only a brilliant writer but also a ballsy Strine acitiviste? Holy Moly. Je suis impressed!! :>) That took a lot of guts.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:34 AM

freda:

I visited a friends house on the South Shore--a place off the island on which Montreal sits.

There were six people there. Three guys, three gals. Picture an ell-shaped couch. I was seated at the far right. Gal to my left. Gal to her left, and then guy, guy, gal. Two people had smoked--I wasn't one of them. I had a view into the old farm-house kitchen. There was a table and four chairs. The gal to my left had a view of the table, too. When I looked directly at the table, it was a table. When I averted my eyes about 15 degrees to the right, I could see a man, woman (older couple to me at the time) and a young person (12 years old ish). The host asked what I was looking at. I asked him to leave the room with me, and I also asked the gal next to me to turn her eyes about 15 degrees to the right, and say what she saw. I left the room and told the host (fellow named Tom) what I had seen. The gal I had asked couldn't see anything. BUT, the gal to her left moved over and she saw the same thing I had, down to type of shir, colour of pants, and rough period of the clothing. Boy's hair colour, etc. Tom had seen it before. His wife couldn't. Nor could the other fellow, but his wife could. The gal I was with couldn't.

Tom said the people there were never disruptive. Was almost like a place where two 'worlds' met. Incidentally, the people who had toked up couldn't see the 'family' at the table. Tom's wife was incredulous, because she thought Tom had put me up to it. He hadn't.

So, what's to say? Strange things happen, and three people there--including one who lived in that house--never saw the other family. Three people--one of whom did live there--saw the family. Would I expect anyone to believe me? Well, two other people do. Three other people don't. Do I care? Not really. People will believe what they wish to.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:47 AM

I am amazed that most people find this stuff hard to believe. As people, we accept, basically without questioning, that we sent a rocket to Mars, that we landed a man on the moon, that we sent a rocket beyond our solar system, etc. Truthfully, how many of us have seen that? Very few, considering the number of people on this planet. But, it is accepted that all three things happened.

We accept that atomic bombs work. Very few people have seen one explode. We accept that what we see on TV is 'real', even though we are all aware that computer enhancement can perform wonders to what's on the screen. We also accept that our governments often lie to us (for one reason or another), and five seconds later we believe what we are told by media and government officials. Don't you see something out of kilt with that picture?

And then we have difficulty accepting that possibly ETs have actually made contact. Whay? Because our governments tell us they haven't?
R I G H T (that has to be said the way Bill Cosby said it in the Noah skit). We live in a split-level reality, and most people are willing to do that. Some people aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,freda in Dungog
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:03 AM

thanks Amos - tho I can't claim to be "ballsy" - just don't have the right equipment for that one.

Bruce, I have similar experiences, this one that I'll tell involves sound, not sight. I was in a garden, in Calcutta, with a dozen people, including an Indian spiritual teacher who was also into music and song. I'll call him Baba (generic name for Indian gurus).

We were all there, and spent the evening listening to him singing, and singing along where the type of tune allowed it. (some bengalui music, call and response, is almost bluesy in its plaintive feel and powerful rhythms).

At the end of the evening as baba wandered past, on his way out, he stopped and spoke a woman standing near me, in Bangla (Bengali).

Back in our room that evening, she started commenting about what he'd said. We asked how the hell she knew what he said, he'd commented in Bangla. She said no he said [whatever the phrase was, I can't remember, its 20 years ago]- and he said it in English.

The fact was, that he had spoken to her in front of a group of people, we all heard it in Banglah, she heard it in English. Our Bengali friends also heard it in Bangla, and the next day they told us the phrase they heard meant the same thing as the phrase she had mentioned the night before, the one she him say in English.

I had some other experiences with this teacher, one which involved him coming and visiting me in what you could say was a holographic form, when I was seriously ill in Perth. At the time he was in India.
And yes, he healed me, and because of that I have been lucky enough to live a healthy life. This was an experience I neither anticipated, hoped or prayed for, nor expected. I would not have even believed it possible, but luckily for me, it happened.

again, like bruce, i know these things are unbelievable to someone who was not there, again, any disbelief cannot take away from the experience, and doesn't bother me or change my own view in any way. And I live with my health.

Because of these and other experiences, I know that I don't understand the laws of time and space, and that some beings are not limited in the way we are.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:54 AM

Brucie,

SOME people believe that the moon landings were faked in a film studio...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 07:37 AM

Yup. Some people will believe anything...specially if it's hearsay, and specially if it comes from an authoritative source (like the news media or the government). This doesn't prove they have good judgement or perspicacity, it proves they are sheep by nature.

Those same people will not for a moment give consideration to something truly unusual that they hear from a private individual who is describing not hearsay, but his own DIRECT experience.

This is because sheep don't like things that are unusual. :-) They want their normality to remain undisturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 10:25 AM

Holographic projection of thoughts and images of self is a talent I have heard ascribed to spiritually high-powered, rare, individuals before. The fact is that thought is non-local. Placement by considering oneself placed is the mechanism we mostly slave under, but some people apparently master it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:18 AM

A friend of mine who is a brilliant, divergent thinker--he would fit right in on the 'cat--posited the following.

Many people have 'memories' from past lives. People, according to their various spiritual beliefs, convictions, training or persuasions will then go on to postulate a past life (and therefore a future life) based on the memory. That is a complicated explanation, and it meanders all over creation looking for proof. So, he went looking for a simple answer, and he found one that makes sense, meets the criteria and answers the unasked question: Why do some people feel the have had past lives (which they think they have had based on the memories they experience in their present life)? So simple it's elegant.

Memory is stored electro-chemically. What if a memory in the process of being stored gets misfiled and ends up attached to our genetic material? The memory is triggered by whatever, and we then think we've lived before. NO. We simply have received a memory from an ancestor, thus thinking wehave lived before.

Science, which has no friggin' real idea about questions of this nature will scoff. Unfortunately, mostscience is government-funded, and it tends to dance when the funder snaps its fingers. Science now looks in 'holes' it's told to look in, and not a helluva lot further.

We have a whole study of physics based generallyon the big bang theory of creation. The big bang theory is illogical. But we still base part of science on it. What kinda shit is this? LOOK at the illogic of our science! Crap like, "Nothing travels faster than light." Well, that may be bullshit. The thinking now is that some 'forces' are damn near instantaneous, everywhere! But, we hold on to the old saw that nothing travels faster than light. Folks, our science isn't making sense. Maybe it's time we began to see that.

Thank you. I now feel much better. Have a nice day all.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:25 AM

as I understand it nothing DOES travel faster then light - the forces that APPPEAR to be faster then light *do not travel* They co-exist thorughout the field.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 11:37 AM

OK, MMario. Learned something new today. Thanks. Has science explained how they got there?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST, pre-emptive chicken
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:13 PM

Confirmation of all I opined. Little Hawk repeats ad nauseam claims of cuckoo sightings with neither proof positive nor rational postulate followed by confirmation via Amos-esque lexisical obfustication, groupie-fawning from the usual suspects and conspiratorial mumblings from the Enquirer subscribers.

Looking forward to the inevitable personal recce.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:25 PM

Tell me what you're taking. It could help solve some problems with space-time.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 12:52 PM

There is no proof that memories are stored electro chemically. It seems mor elikely to me that they are potential recreations of viewpoint, stored spiritually.


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM

"I am amazed that most people find this stuff hard to believe."

you will notice I have not said much recently on these subjects. You all know about my basic position anyway....but I will comment on brucie's post.

Those who are (serious, honorable) skeptics simply approach 'proof' and 'belief' differently. In brucie's examples, he notes a number of things which people DO accept & believe, although they 'were not there' and 'didn't experience it themselves'.....my point is that there are a couple of different kinds of facts/claims which people need to decide about.

Atom bombs and rockets to the moon are a different kind of 'claim' than past lives or alien encounters. WE made the bombs and rockets, and the proof that they are real can be reproduced over & over....we can fire off another bomb tomorrow, or, possibly, put the doubter INTO a rocket and show him weightlessness and the other side of the moon....and we can photograph the events in detail and up close.

Past lives and aliens and mindreading and precognition and spoon bending and ghosts and out-of-body experiences and crop circles are entirely different categories, since the claimants cannot show others what they experienced directly and with the exception of 'usually' fuzzy photos of 'alien' crafts, cannot even record the experiences. .... The other difference is that we know of MANY ways the experiences the skeptics consider dubious can be faked, misunderstood, or explained using alternate premises.

As I have said before, none of this exactly proves that these experiences did not occur, and one day we may see some reasonable explanation as to how they happen...(of course there MAY be ships our govt. is experimenting with that they are not ready to show us...and it IS theoretically possible we may meet aliens...but the sort of 'proof' we can show on the evening news like we do pics of moon rovers is sipmly not here yet.)

You all know that I doubt that some of this CAN be proved,(as in past lives & ghosts) but notice that I say 'doubt'...I cannot 'prove' that certain evidence will NEVER appear. I just have this compulsion to say "...ummm...but..." when claims appear to be too far out and based on dubious logic and ambiguous evidence. Even those of you who DO believe in some of this know there is a LOT of pure superstition and wishful thinking that happens to honest people.

....anyway...back to the shadows for now for this 'friendly' skeptic..

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:45 PM

I agree with you Bill D. I simply have very little trust in main-stream science. And the near-death stuff has been documented over and over. The 'stories' are very similar. I would love--for example--for science to duplicate the moon landing. Or the big bang.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 01:57 PM

ummm...the moon landing WAS duplicated a number of times...and tapes are shown on TV regularly. WE did that, and WE kept notes and pictures..

The Big Bang will be a trifle more difficult, Im afraid

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:16 PM

True, Bill. So, why do we accept that the big bang happened? (One skeptic to another.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 02:41 PM

Analysis of data that comes from instruments is the only basis for believing in a Big Bang. Instruments are revered because they ar e mechanical and therefore they react the same way when the same conditions are present, thus allowing people to "prove" things. Or so it seems, anyway. This requires certain assumptions about the nature of time and the continuity that is seems to imply.

It is curious that haveing been disappointed by life often enough, one falls into the belief that only mechanical devices can be an acceptable source of data.

Sad, in a way.

And certainly debatable and problematic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Anyone interested might check out the latest Nexus magazine. (It is fringe--which doesn't always equate to wrong.) Why is the mistake about red shift being hushed up, and why isn't mainstream science interested?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:21 PM

well, not all scientists 'accept' the Big Bang theory,,,there are still 'steady state' adherents around, and those who think there may still be a 3rd or 4th possibility. And, it is important to note, not all who suggest the Big Bang as the current best guess really accept it in a srtict sense...they simply propose working hypotheses and see what experiments and discussion lead to...(This is my favorite way of approaching it all...I am quite uncomfortable with listening to those who get their egos mixed into their science (or religion!) and assert that they HAVE the answer..) (even worse is mixing ego, science and religion in the same pie...you get some strangly flavored products, with pie crust that falls apart with a sharp, logical knife.)

as to the Red Shift...measurements like that are constantly being re-evaluated. I assume that if new figures are discovered, there will be foot-dragging among those whose theories it upsets, but you can't "cover up" scientific facts for long if they are true. (Did you know that someone, on a whim, did a BIG survey and showed that 'normal' human body temperature is NOT 98.6° F?)...I suppose there is opposition to changing THAT by some, but they can't exactly cover it up.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 05:22 PM

Not quite so, Bill D.

I fully expect that the problem of unified field will be solved within the next two years. Physics has SO much invested in its present way of doing research--and its present way of receiving funds--well,I bet the math itself will be disputed, and 'scientists' will cover theirs asses and jobs by fighting truth all the way. Pure science doesn't exist anymore. Governments control damned near all of it.

However, we'll see.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 09:15 PM

why two years? I know that many would LOVE to see their names on the final version, but is anyone really close?

"...-well,I bet the math itself will be disputed,"

oh, sure...they are still arguing about how many elementary particles there are and whether left-handed quarks can mate with pi-mesons in the presence of peanut butter! Anything that complicated will go through a dozen versions before any sort of consensus is reached which sort of fits the observed data........and then they'll find 2 galaxies at 17 trillion light years distance dancing the Polka at .000000007 milli-angstroms and off they'll go again. I expect it all to trail on WAY beyond my lifetime.....that's what science IS, whether government is pushing or not. (Remember, some of the most important science was done in direct opposition the the state & church a few hundred years ago! )

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM

What sort of proof do you wish me to provide, "chicken"? :-) I do not control or command any of the UFO's, therefore I am hardly in a position to provide the proof you are so concerned about, am I?

There are people in certain positions (namely the government and military) who could provide very compelling proof if they wanted to, but they are not interested in opening their files to you, so you ain't gonna get it from them either. They want you to remain ignorant, and I'm sure you will not disappoint them in the slightest. They require a lobotomized public in order to maintain the status quo, and they've got one, believe me. Now go buy another cheeseburger or surround-sound system and quit wasting your time and mine in what for you is a totally fruitless discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 03:27 PM

Dear chicken:

There are a number of people I would stand up for on this site without even having to read what they wrote, and Little Hawk is definitely one of them. I have found almost every post he's ever made to be the result of clear thinking and deep consideration. (He slipped a tad in my esteem due to the unfortunate incidents with the
1) blow-up dolls and 2) the goat. However, no one is perfect.)

Let me posit this: Many people have written here that they have seen UFOs or had other real-life experiences that are not run-of-the-mill events. Now, either you can tell all those people that they are 1) liars or 2) idiots or 3) both, or you can accept the fact that they have and you haven't.

I suppose in a way that I am very fortunate. I have hit an age where I truly don't give a sh#t who believes me on issues of this nature, and I tend to tell people who say I'm a liar to take a flying leap to themselves. I hope you see how reasonable Little Hawk is. However, I'm not.



Please read between the lines.


Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:33 PM

Little Hawk,

you do not understand at all my point and therefore see an equivalence between our positions that isn't there. I have said nothing at all in my last post about your own observation. My point was and is that to conclude from your observation that all other observations also must have been UFOs is narrowminded in the extreme.

The equivalent would be a person who for one UFO observation has proved that in this case a burnt out rocket part was most likely what gave rise to the experience would conclude that all other observation can be explained the same way. I'd call that person narrowminded and so you come over here too.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:46 PM

I agree, Wolfgang, it would be very narrow-minded to do that. I'm sure that many people have mistaken various other phenomena such as you mention for alien space vehicles and will continue to do so. I am also sure that some people have actually seen real alien vehicles. One has to approach each incident on its own merits, and draw conclusions accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 06:57 PM

Brucie,

(1) Near-death experiences are well documented and several possible explanations are documented as well (hypoxia being considered the best at present)

(2) Read a bit of the old threads about that theme and you'll see that liars or idiots or both are by far not the only possibilities discussed here by sceptics. A person can be completely sane and not studpid and make an honest mistake.

(3) The hushing up in science and the ignoring stories you read in fringe magazines are not written with an exe to the truth, they are written with an eye to the effect the stories have upon the readers of these magazines. More often than not such claims are simply wrong, but the readers like them.

It has happened very often in my life (that's one of my experiences) that I have read in a fringe magazine or book sentences like 'science does ignore these findings' and I knew from own reading in the original sources that this sentences was simply wrong. These are just so stories written to feed the expectation of the readers.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:19 PM

I too knew a fellow who wrote for a rag--sensationalist 'newspaper', and he told me many stories of having a few tokes and making up headlines: "Woman Gives Birth to 800-Pound Alien", etc.

You are entitled to your beliefs about my beliefs, and your thoughts about things in general. The point I was trying to get across is that I don't give a rat's ass (nothing personal).

I KNOW what I saw, and you don't. But, you are intent on telling me I couldn't have seen what I saw. Bottom line: Don't tell me what I saw. You have no idea.

Thank you, Wolfgang.

Bruce

PS I enjoy your posts, lest you interpret this as a pissin' contest between the two of us.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 04 - 07:36 PM

I asked bruce to tell his experience, and then told two of my own. while mine don't have anything to do with UFOs, they are experiences that cannot be proven in any way, although they were witnessed. Just as bruce's experience was witnessed and also experienced by another person present.

witness ..
witness :
       n 1: someone who sees an event and reports what happened [syn: witnesser,
             informant]
       2: a close observer; someone who looks at something (such as an
          exhibition of some kind); "the spectators applauded the
          performance"; "television viewers"; "sky watchers
          discovered a new star" [syn: spectator, viewer, watcher,
          looker]
       3: testimony by word or deed to your religious faith
       4: (law) a person who attests to the genuineness of a document
          or signature by adding their own signature [syn: attestant,
          attestor, attestator]
       5: (law) a person who testifies under oath in a court of law
       v 1: be a witness to

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 03:56 PM

Further to the above: Why will the courts accept the testimony as to what people saw--even lone witnesses to say a car crash--yet dismiss that same person's testimony to do with something I'll loosely call paranormal? This suggests that the only testimony people will accept has to be something they agree with. That posits a predisposition to the subject, don't ya think?

Aye, there's the rub.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 04:46 PM

That is exactly right. The only testimony most people will accept is testimony they are already inclined to agree with. :-)

And THAT is what mostly fuels all these endless circular debates on the Cat...Ego struggles, posing as objectivity.

It's a game. People play it to win, all the while assuring themselves that it is they who are objective, realistic, and well-informed. Everyone figures that when he arrives, the smartest person just stepped into the room. Ha! We all imagine ourselves surrounded by ignorant fools who don't know their ass from their elbow. "If ONLY they knew better!" Like we do.

Vanity, thy name is humanity!

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 07:42 PM

I don't feel involved in an "endless circular debate" because my few comments and honest questions have been absolutely ignored, especially those concerning UFOlogist organizations who hide their evidences for themselves, and blame the governments for hiding the evidences. And especially the subject which gets my interest, which is our ideas about an encounter of civilizations, be it through UFOs, or our rockets, or inter-stellar communication, or whatever. :)

Un abrazo (a hug)
Andrés
PS: I've never been in Europe but I beleive that Europe exists. Does this make me a gullible person predisposed to beleive what the governments say?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 07:53 PM

We have no way to know for sure that you are writing from Brazil, but most of us accept that.

I agree that most UFO pictures seem very hazy and out of focus. And I agree that OFOlogists certainly make finding the proof difficult. So let's get to Area 51. Why is it that US Senators have a hard time getting in there? And don't you call the testimony of people who have worked there proof?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM

Escamillo:

Try www.mufon.com

Maybe something there will work for you.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:38 PM

I think this will be my last post to this thread. I find it interesting that "UFOs do not exist!" has generated over 450 posts. May the force be with you (that's for the believers) and may the farce be with you (that's for the non-believers).

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 08:45 PM

Sorry: This is the last post. 425. Thank y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 04 - 09:06 PM

Look, Escamillo, the only reason I became interested in UFO's in my late teens was because I SAW some. And I mean I saw what could only have been intelligently piloted vehicles of a totally unknown technology...I would assume from a nonhuman origin.

Prior to that I certainly did not believe in any such things.

And I am not afraid to say I saw them, despite the fact that someone who doesn't know anything about it has the gall to suggest I see a clinical psychologist.

As for Europe, the reasons I believe it's there are many...including the fact that I have met thousands of people who came from there or have been there. :-) That's good enough for me, even though I have not actually been there yet in this life.

It's the sheer faith of people who insist that something DOESN'T exist that puzzles me. How can they possibly know that? It is faith upon which their statement rests, though they will pull out any logical-sounding argument they can dream up to support that faith.

People just like to be "right", that's all. And that's ego. They would rather be right than be fair, thoughtful, respectful of others, or any other decent thing like that. It is unfortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:40 PM

(sigh) my questions remain unanswered. Let's see the other thread

Andrés, from Buenos Aires, Argentina, never from Brazil :)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:53 PM

Nothing new in the other thread, except good jokes. BUT there is something posted by LH that I find very interesting. LH, you say:

"As for Europe, the reasons I believe it's there are many...including the fact that I have met thousands of people who came from there or have been there. :-) That's good enough for me, even though I have not actually been there yet in this life."

That's the question. That's "good enough for you" That's why this thread has become a discussion about KNOWLEDGE AND BELIEF, rather than existent or non-existent alien vehicles.

Of course the testimony of so many trustable people and solid history is good enough for me, and I beleive that Europe exists despite I have never seen the glorious Old Continent. A thousand charlatans could shout to me that Europe is only an invention of the media, and I would not believe a word from them. Because the existence of Europe has become part of my KNOWLEDGE.

As in that rough example, I could say that I know that vaccination is effective, that the Earth is almost spherical and there are trillions of planets in the known Universe. There are many other things I don't know, I can only BELIEVE, or CONJECTURE. For example, I can believe that there is life in other places of the Universe, and I can fantasize about an encounter. Simply the supposed evidence of UFOs as alien vehicles is NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME (and for all the universities and almost all the scientists of the world, by the way, not considering the military)

Note especially that I didn't say anything about vivid experiences of my eyes. I could have seen signals from my late wife, signals from Heaven and from Hell, but they are not valid as proof of anything, and I don't pretend people to accept that they are a reality just because my eyes told me so.

Finally, I absolutely disagree with this concept: "We all imagine ourselves surrounded by ignorant fools who don't know their ass from their elbow." LH, you know that we in the Mudcat, including you and me, could never imagine that.

Un abrazo, (a hug)
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:29 AM

Andrés


USted es un hombre muy educado y hidalgo!!

(I don't know if those terms are colloquial where you are, but I mean them to mean a man who is a gentleman and one of good upbringing!)

Thanks for he voice of reason and courtesy!


A

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:03 AM

And you are generous indeed qualifying me, Amos :)

I don't want to leave the impression that I don't read documentation recommended by a person who thinks differently. I've visited www.mufon.com. They seem to be serious people. But (alas!) there is no one single evidence in the site, only some detailed investigations made by non-professionals without any conclusion, the usual claim for the seriousness of the informants, the usual claim for readers to submit their experiences to them, and the usual claim for dollars to know more. There is an incident that looks promising, but you have to order the book to see details. And if you want to be well informed, they request $ 45.00 for a one-year subscription to their magazine.

Considering the vast universe of information from universities and scientific institutions available free for the public, I think that the chances of mufon.com to convince people is very poor.

I repeat, I would be happy to see an evidence, because I accept that the possibility exists, and I certainly accept the existence of other civilizations (or true civilizations) in the Universe, as something absolutely independent from the existence of alien visitors. What gets my attention most, and what I would like to see here, is an interchange of ideas about WHAT will happen when we officially meet "them".

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 11:56 AM

Don't tell me what I saw. You have no idea. (Brucie)

I have never told anyone including you what they saw, because I really cannot know that. I tell people what it also could have been what they saw. And about that I have a lot of ideas and knowledge.

I write about possibilities and not about certainties, that's a very big difference for me.

If 'honest mistake' mentioned as one possibility is a start of a pissing contest for you, I can't help it.
"You either believe what I say I saw or I don't talk to you anymore" is not a good argument in a debate.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:14 PM

You are quite correct in your analysis of "knowledge", Andres. We all form conclusions based on our backlog of what we consider knowledge, but so much of it is secondhand. Yet what else have we got to go on? We can't experience everything firsthand, so we have to rely on other sources for most of the "facts" that we cram our heads full of.

I wouldn't expect Mufon or any of the other UFO-investigating organizations to convince anyone that UFO's exist. The only thing that convinces most people is a direct encounter of their own.

I think the primary purpose of the UFO organizations, in truth, is to allow people who have already had such encounters to get together with other such people, share a mutual interest, and look for more information. They may imagine they are going to convert someone, but I think they very rarely do. Most of the people who look up info published by UFO organizations are either...

a) people who already believe in alien visitors and want more info
b) debunkers and skeptics who want to pick holes in and find fault with the UFO organization's info in order to prove that it's all a bunch of nonsense

As such, you have 2 sets of people who are busy confirming their existing (and opposite) prejudices for their own personal satisfaction. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 12:22 PM

Andres,

My apologies. Argentina.

Bruce M

OK. I believed you were from Brazil. You say Argentina. Who's correct.

Hugs back to you.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Escamillo
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:56 AM

LH, I belong to the third group c) Those who honestly want to see the evidence :)

Brucie, that's a good question, you thought I was from Brazil, I say Argentina. I am not showing to you any evidence through these posts, then let's imagine that you demand an evidence. Which kind of evidence would you prefer?

a) I describe for you all my surroundings including the obelisc and the Argentinean flags
b) I send to you a photo of myself dancing the Tango and a crowd applauding
c) I reproduce written comments from serious journalists about my last performance
d) I send to you my home phone and address, so you or any trustable person can visit me as often as he wants, see my computer and these posts, and share some bottles of the finest wine

If you chose d) you could be falling into skepticism! The wine will be your reward.

Un abrazo,
Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:53 AM

Oh, there are lots of us who honestly want to see the evidence, Andres, but...how do we arrange that? :-)

I've seen AFO's (alien flying vehicles) on 2 occasions, both in the late 60's. I have not seen any since. I was not expecting to see any then.

How does one arrange such opportunities? I don't have an answer to that. The best I can do in the meantime is read the available information (of which there is PLENTY) in books and on the Internet, and try to sort it out and interpret it as best I can. The case of the Phoenix Lights (seen in 1997) is very interesting, and I just happened to meet 2 people yesterday who were from near Phoenix, Arizona, so I asked them if they knew about it. They said, "Yes, thousands of people saw those lights, and most people feel it could only have been alien vehicles of some kind, although the US Air Force later tried to simulate it later by dropping flares at night...but the flares looked quite obviously different."

The case of the Phoenix Lights is entirely convincing evidence of AFO's as far as I'm concerned. There were way too many witnesses, photos, and videotapes of the phenomenon to think otherwise about it, unless one is simply too prejudiced to think fairly about it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:41 AM

Andres:

I AM a skeptic. That is why I know what I saw and accept it as real. When you see one you will no longer be a skeptic. We could have some fine wine anyway. Maybe after a few, you could see one too.

Un abrazo, amigo. Espero que usted tenga un gran día.

Bruce M

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:47 AM

Actually, I was a skeptic too, until I saw them. It was hard to find anyone MORE skeptical than I was at that age. I didn't believe in anything weird or unusual at the time. I was a real little scientific atheist, right to the bone, and figured I knew everything.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM

The non existent UFO in Stephville Texas resulted in 10 jet fighters being dispatched.

The airforce likes to keep the Crawfor Ranch 16 miles away safe from non existent UFOs that witness' said was about 3 footbal fields long.

Gotta hand it to Texans, Everythings measured in football comparisons.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:20 PM

It's just that Texans don't usually even notice something unless it's really, really BIG. ;-)

A neighour of mine saw a UFO about a week ago. Quite an interesting description she gave of it too, but she didn't talk to too many people about it afterward, because she was afraid of being laughed at. The usual sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: skarpi
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:24 PM

UFOs do not exist!   who said so ???


prove to me and the whole world that we are the, people who live on this planet alone in the universe ....


and I want a solid prove , not just this man said or it has been checked
or ,...........

yes there has been many things that can explain peoples seeing
, but there are many things unexplained .

all the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Megan L
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 03:38 PM

Aye son as ma grnny used tae say "Theres mair things in heaven than earth"

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:09 PM

I haven't read this whole thread. I simply don't have that kind of time. But it appears to me that most people here are assuming that "UFO" means "alien spacecraft."

Let's parse the phrase. Noun: "Object." Okay, that's pretty general. Can't do much with that. Adjective: "Flying." Well, that's fairly definite. It means that the Object is moving through the air, not walking, swimming, or burrowing through the ground. Another adjective: "Unidentified." AHA! Now here's where the fun starts.

If the Unidentified Flying Object can be identified as an alien spacecraft, then that leaves a long list of very interesting questions. But the Flying Object is no longer "Unidentified."

"Unidentified" means "I don't know what it is," or "I can't put a label on it."

I see Unidentified Flying Objects all the time. They fly over where I live. I see lights moving through the night sky. From the sound that accompanies them, I assume that many of them are airliners on their way to the Seattle-Tacoma airport to the south. But I often can't see enough of them to tell if they are Boeing, Douglas, Air Bus, or what, nor if they are twin-engine or four-engine. Sometimes something will fly over and even hover awhile. Sounds like a helicopter to me, but since the only things I can see in the night sky are lights, I can't positively identify it as such.

On one occasion, as night was falling and I was walking from the garage where I had just parked my car to the apartment, I heard an object overhead and looked up to see bright lights, and a shape that looked for all the world like the Klingon battle cruiser that Kirk and the crew commandeered in Star Trek: The Voyage Home. But since all I could see of it was a silhouette, I tend to doubt that it really was a Klingon Warbird.

Speaking of birds, I can identify robins, crows, pigeons, ducks, geese, swans, flamingos (pink plastic and live), seagulls, and a number of others of our feathered friends, but (not counting the pink plastic flamingos) there are many of these "Flying Objects" that I can't "Identify." There are avid bird watchers who can, however.

There is an incredible amount of sheer bushwah and bovine droppings surrounding the whole UFO/Flying Saucer mythos. The vast majority of such is just plain baseless speculation and general nonsense. It's one helluva leap from an "Unidentified Flying Object" to alien visitors and all that implies.

But am I open to the idea that there are other civilizations out there? Most definitely. I would be very surprised if there were not, As Ellie Arroway (played by Jodie Foster) says in the movie Contact, if there was no one in this whole immense universe but us, "it would be an awful waste of space."

I think we need to be bit more precise—well, perhaps a bit less precise—in our use of expressions like "Unidentified Flying Object" and it's more widely used acronym, UFO, and not just instantly leap to the conclusion that something we see but can't identify is, ipso facto, an alien spaceship.

I keep an open mind.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:24 PM

"But am I open to the idea that there are other civilizations out there? Most definitely."

That too may be something that is bovine droppings, etc. Wishful thinking on your part. Why make that assumption, Don? Have any other civilizations been in touch?

Sorry. I don't mean to pick at you, but when this topic comes up you are very quick to pick on it. Figured I'd be just as quick this time. No offense.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 05:49 PM

Maybe there are sentient beings from other planets able to travel through space and surrepticiuosly visit us. Maybe not.

Either way, I believe that the most likely true identity of any "unidentified flying object" is that of an aircraft that is new and experimental, developed under government sponsorship, and being kept secret from the public, at least for the tme being.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:03 PM

A favorite book of mine is called Unconventional Flying Objects.

Eye witness accounts are inaccurate or totally false half of the time. I was once talked into seeing a light in the sky supposedly move instantly from point to point. But on the other hand I had 4 other sightings that would probably terrify most people.

The extraordinary claim needs extraordinary evidence. Maybe.
From what I have learned about Bush style proof and the Fox no spin truth, I have little faith in anythng regarding proof or lack of proof issuing from our military.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:12 PM

Wow..THIS thread again! (I'd forgotten I wrote some of those posts)

I pretty much agree with PoppaGator. I'd BET that out there somewhere there are other sentient beings, but I would NOT risk a dime that any of 'em know we are here or how to get to us.
   If there are any ETs watching, I sure hope they land on the White House lawn during my lifetime.

The Stealth aircraft were responsible for many sightings years ago...who knows what they are testing now?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:47 PM

I've watched Stealth aircraft flit and flutter behind Air Force 1.
I have also seen glowing orbs closely tailing large aircraft but a glowing orb is no proof of anything except its opaqely bright.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:48 PM

Yeah, Don. ;-) "UFO" simply means unidentified flying object, and we've all seen hundreds of those by now, I'm sure...many of which were certainly not alien space vehicles...but some of which may have been.

That's why I have come to somewhat prefer designating certain more extraordinary sightings as far more likely to be "AFO"s (alien flying objects) than a variety of the other possibilities available.

Even if they were AFOs, however, they must remain UFOs for the time being...because we cannot identify them or get official recognition of them. Such things can only be positively identified after contact is made with the occupants.   Until such contact is not only made...but is openly and officially acknowledged by our governments...all UFOs, AFOs, and potentially likely AFOs will remain simply: UFOs.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:15 PM

Its funny that I could revive this old thread but the 2001 thread I started entitled

The US has lost the war...

this thread is closed.

ironic if not sad.

In China when deletions and censorship are imposed it is called being Harmonized.

This thread is harmonized.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 07:42 PM

*shrug* some threads are closed because they were too contentious...some to stop spam....some just because they were old & repetitive. Joe will often reopen one if it seems useful.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 08:17 PM

Listen, folks...

I ain't gonna go reading thru 5 thousand posts to this thread to find the last time I was here but I just want to "refresh" my sighting of a real UFO...

I ain't gonna go into every detail but it was like 1971 and Lisa Hadley and I were... Forget that part...

We saw the sumabich and it weren't like reflections or swamp gas... It was a UFO...

BTW, when did they start makin' UFO's outta swamp gas???

Sheet fire, if they can take swamp gas and make UFO's outta it then why can't they take swamp gas and make cars outta it???

Any of you smarty-pants got an answer for that question??? Well, don't hurt yer heads 'casue they can't make cars outta swamp gas and guess what???

Give up???

They can't make UFO's outta the stuff either...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 09:19 PM

I've spent some time reading a bit more of this thread. And, Peace, I'm not sure what you are objecting to in what I just posted, other than getting the impression from some of what you've posted, that you seem to think that science is no more authoritative than reading Tarot cards. Afraid I can't agree. Science certainly doesn't have all the answers, but it's far ahead of reading tea leaves. And it—like me—is always open to new date. Hence, self-correcting.

As far as life on other planets is concerned, I will deal with that in a moment. But since, in the not-too-far-distant future, we may very well be able to visit the planets of other stars (most of the science has already been done, now it is mainly a matter of engineering), why should we doubt—assuming that there may be life on other planets—that intelligent, technologically sophisticated extraterrestrials might be able to come here?

Whether or not they actually have is an entirely different matter. I didn't claim that they did or they didn't. I didn't claim anything, one way or another. I didn't say that I believe that UFOs—if they actually exist at all—are alien space craft, nor did I say that they are not. Clear enough? Mainly what I was pointing out is that an "Unidentified Flying Object" is unidentified, and until and unless it is identified, to claim that it is either an alien space craft or a weather balloon or a migrating pelican is pure and unsupported guesswork.

Then I went on to allow that, highly skeptical though I am, I am open to the idea that it is within the realm of possibility that, on extremely rare occasions, an Unidentified Flying Object might be—MIGHT be—an alien space craft.

I am acquainted with a couple of people who work in the Astrobiology Department at the University of Washington. Their work is primarily speculative, but to add some substance to their speculations, they do real study in the development of life in extreme conditions here on earth, such as the abundance of life surrounding volcanic vents in the oceans' floors—where the water temperature reaches as much as 700 degrees (impossible at sea level, but can occur in the kind of pressures that exist at those depths)—and the strange living creatures that draw their energy from heat from the vents rather than sunlight, which doesn't reach those ocean depths. The astrobiologists extrapolate what they find to extreme conditions that may very well exist on other planets. Their conclusion? That life is possible, at least on some other planets. Not that they know for certain that it exists. Or, if it does, on which planets, specifically. But that it is possible.

Amino acids and various other organic molecules (the same as those found here on earth) have been found in meteorites, indicating that the building blocks of life are spread throughout the universe. How did life start on earth? We're beginning to get a few clues about that. And in the process, we are learning that, given a wide range of conditions, there is no good reason to believe that life could not have develop on other planets as well.

A study of various aspects of astronomy (a subject that has interested me since I was about six years old) and what we know about the birth and life-spans of stars, and what becomes of the leftover "debris" after a star is born, indicates that there should be a mind-boggling number of planets out there. In fact, a main-sequence star, like our sun, that doesn't have a family of planets orbiting it should be the rare exception rather than the rule.

This is not just my hare-brained idea. Some pretty heavy-duty astronomers are currently systematically surveying nearby stars, looking for planets, and, difficult though it is, they're finding hundreds of them. How many of them are hosts to living creatures? How many of them might contain intelligent life? How many of them might contain intelligent, technological life?

Why should we be unique in a cosmos this huge? To believe that we are is hubris of monumental proportions!

Click HERE and scroll down. Or HERE. More of same HERE

Should anyone of a religious persuasion feel that the idea of life on other worlds is inconsistent what it says in Scripture, here is at least one Christian viewpoint:   CLICKY.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:04 PM

Mr. Firth, you leave little ambiguity in your more lengthy explanation.

Brevity is seldom succinct.

I have had an unarticulated thought about UFOs for nearly 25 years.
I have entertained the notion that "they" may have more control over 4 dimesnsions than we and as a result "they" have seen beyond our time and come here now to survey and scan what we achieved prior to the coming planatary enviormental and human culture collapse.

Yeah I know plenty of yahoo wierdos have been saying some form of this since 1950. I just didn't want any one to hear me sound like a yahoo wierdo, at least regarding UFO's which was no small part of my career in the 80's.


As far as closed threads go, I am happy just to be able to find them in my trace file. I have no sinsull ax to grind.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 04:44 AM

Surely a discussion on UFOs as a folkloric phenomenon would be more useful / interesting / appropriate here than another slanging match on the ETH (Extra Terrestrial Hypothesis)? Of course there are no extra-terrestrials visiting Earth. Why? Because the experience & interpretation of UFOs is entirely subjective, rather like ghost & fairy-lore, albeit with a technological twist by way of added plausibility.

As with ghost & fairy-lore, there emerges a canonical conscensus by way of an objective framework on which to hang at least a measure of objective commonality. Thus does the folkloric nature of that commonality take on a life of its own, as can be seen with UFO-ETH community / culture. But make no mistake, it is the objective commonality that insists on the subjective experience (or at least its interpretation) and not the other way round.

I do not doubt individuals have experience of UFOs - likewise ghosts & fairies etc. if it comes to that; I know I certainly do, as do most other people I've talked to - but it is the interpretation of that experience that is the interesting thing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:22 AM

Yes, the interpretation is the most interesting part.

But what makes you absolutely certain that there ARE no AFOs visiting Earth...or that there ARE no Angels visiting Earth for that matter? ;-) From what does your faith that there are none of these derive? It's mere assumption on your part.

I've known cases of modern people who saw UFOs (AFOs, I mean, in all likelihood) AND who have seen an Angel or Angels...and they made no common connection whatsoever between those separate phenomena. That is, they were fully aware that they were observing 2 utterly different phenomena on different occasions...one of a technological sort, the other of a spiritual sort.

So what accounts for the complete difference in their interpretations of the separate phenomena? Not their beliefs...but the actual completely obvious differences IN those phenomena.

Now, when I saw what I certainly took to be AFOs (in all probability, I mean) (or possibly they were secret military craft...but I doubt it)...at that time I had NO belief in AFOs at all. My view on that, however, changed radically following that experience.

I know people who've seen other things that THEY had no belief in at all...until having a direct encounter. Some of those things were spiritual phenomena. Some were AFOs (technological phenomena of an apparently alien sort) A complete disbeliever in spiritual phenomena or in AFOs can have his viewpoint changed forever after such an experience.

If there were AFOs visiting the Earth in pre-technological times, as I think is very probable, then it is not surprising that people did not interpret them on a technological basis at that time! ;-) They had no prior technological experience of their own which would have allowed them to even think in those terms. So naturally, they usually interpreted what they saw on a spiritual basis...thinking they were seeing gods, devils, angels, demons, spirits, sky chariots, or whatever they could relate to. Thus, if they HAD seen a high-technology vehicle they would either have been completely baffled and unable to explain it in any way...or they would have given it a spiritual explanation of some kind...because those were the terms of reference that they were accustomed to.

We are now able to come up easily with both spiritual AND technological theories about some of the unusual things we see...and we do...depending on WHAT we see...and how we interpret it. Seeing an Angel would, I think, be an utterly different experience from seeing a saucer-shaped, hovering, obviously high-tech vehicle. The first would be seen as a spiritual being. The second would be seen as an intelligently created flying machine making maneuvers, probably under the control of a pilot or crew.

There would be no difficulty whatever for the modern observer in distinguishing the two as very different phenomena.

There is no particular reason why you should be 100% sure that there are no such phenomena, just because you yourself haven't seen them yet. ;-)

Nothing, that is, except blind faith in what you already believe and don't believe about reality...based on your own necessarily quite limited experience, and based on the commonly stated views of most of the official authority figures of your time (who first of all don't know everything...and secondly don't always tell us everything either). All of us have, necessarily, quite limited personal experience to fall back on. That's a fact. Still, we have our opinions, don't we? How inflexible they are is an individual matter.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 06:09 AM

But what makes you absolutely certain that there ARE no AFOs visiting Earth...or that there ARE no Angels visiting Earth for that matter?

Can you prove that elves don't exist, or orcs? That bears don't talk to little boys and get their heads stuck in jars of honey? That the elephant's trunk didn't develop because a child full of satiable curtiosity got his nose stretched by a crocodile on the banks of the great grey-green greasy Limpopo River? That there ISN'T a bogey under the bed?

So why pick a few unevidenced things to believe in, out of all the wonderful possibilities?

As has been said before, whether UFOs exist or not, they can't land and we can't know what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 07:27 AM

I can't prove that a specific thing does not exist, no. ;-) Nor can you. We can simply have opinions about it regarding its probability of existing, correct? And those opinions need some backing up, hopefully.

After one has seen a given thing...any given thing...one tends to feel that the probability of it existing has gone way, way up, to say the least. One who has not seen it, however, simply has his old opinion to fall back on, doesn't he? And that's all he has. His old opinion is quite satisfying for him, but perhaps not for someone else. That's how it is with opinions. They're highly individual.

I have as yet met no one who has seen or who claims to have seen most of your unevidenced examples. Not one person. They're amusing! ;-) But since I've met absolutely no one who claims to have seen:

"elves or orcs"..."bears that talk to little boys and get their heads stuck in jars of honey"..."an elephant's trunk that didn't develop because a child full of insatiable curtiosity got his nose stretched by a crocodile on the banks of the great grey-green greasy Limpopo River" or "a bogey under the bed".....

And I mean, NO one I've ever known has claimed to have seen those things...because of that, I'm not very impressed at the probability of any of those things existing. Clear?

On the other hand, I am quite impressed at the probability of things existing which literally thousands or by this time hundreds of thousands of people claim to have seen, including Jimmy Carter, a former minister of the Canadian defence establishment, professional pilots, and leaders of various other countries, indeed professionals from every walk of life, including some scientists, plus many, many ordinary people I've met personally....now THAT impresses me as imbuing the idea with a great deal of probability! See what I mean.

It is not in the same category as your Elves, Orcs, Winnie-the-Pooh, and other such fanciful stuff which is found only, I think, in entertaining books of fiction....so I can only wonder why you would even bother bringing up such unlikely and flimsy examples to back an argument?

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 11:31 AM

LH...buried in the middle of your post above is: "... as I think is very probable,..."

and what a discussion we could have over just that qualifying phrase.

I can't even imagine how to assign degrees of probability to such an idea. "very"? "kinda"? "extremely"?

There are other possible ways to explain why sane, honest, responsible people 'see' UFOs, AFOs and such...and why some report being abducted by them...etc. Since we are still trying to cope with many thousands of sightings and NO clear pictures or hard evidence, I'd think it would behoove us to investigate a bit harder what we can study...ourselves. I don't mean we should quit looking for hard evidence of AFOs, just that we need to be more open to the 'possibility' that our very complex minds can create false or altered memories in some cases.
We KNOW this does happen...ask any one who has interviewed 6 witnesses to the same traffic accident....or who has had an intense dream that felt 'real'..(I have had two)
I don't mean to denigrate the seemingly clear, intense memories of honest people who are trying to cope with real experiences....but there ARE several possible explanations for most of them, including "it was real, but made here on Earth".
It is quite a jump to say, "I saw it, it didn't fit patterns I am familiar with, therefore I will posit creatures who can violate the laws of physics as we know them, and who 'found' us in a universe of trillions of galaxies, and are able to keep us from really identifying them."
   Yeah..I have to admit...that IS one possibility. *shrug* I just think Occam's Razor leads me...so far...in other directions.

YMMV

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 11:36 AM

Art, art, art. But then those guys and gals were always strange . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 12:29 PM

The skull is due to head rapping with cloth from childhood.
This is how they raised little demogoges that would be the next generation of aristocrats. Extreme today even next to body piercing.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 12:33 PM

It's interesting to see the logic from people who poo-poo UFOs (meaning alien spacecraft as in 'out of this world') yet argue that statistically there must be intelligent life elsewhere because there are gazillions of stars, many of which have plentes, and ipso facto. Folks, the same logic should then hold for at least some of those folks to be able to travel. Stats work in lots of directions.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:26 PM

No problem, Bill. ;-) I merely said that I think it's "very probable", based on my own personal experience and my knowledge of many other people's stated accounts of their experiences, etc...

That doesn't mean that you or someone else should necessarily think it's very probable. We all have our own individual outlook when it comes to thinking about stuff like that.

When someone is deeply interested in a subject, they tend to hunt out a lot of information...and they more they find, the more it tends to support their interest. That's natural. Most people who are not inclined to believe in something also do not go looking for much evidence regarding it. Thus their habit of usually ignoring it supports their chosen disbelief.

(There is, however, the occasional quite rare person who becomes a professional debunker of such things as AFOs...and even makes a career out of it. If so, he WILL search out a lot of info on the subject, simply for the joy of attacking it and proving he's right, dead right...and the believers are all wrong. Such people are interesting examples of a certain psychological condition...but I'm not going to go into that.)

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 01:34 PM

Oh, and that wasn't a swipe at you, Bill. Just thought I'd better add that.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM

I'm always a bit puzzled by the mental processes of those folks who cannot seem to live with unanswered questions.

I can certainly undestand the desire to have questions answered. But there are questions where we simply do not know the answers yet and have to be patient until such a time as the answer is forthcoming. And there are also questions, the answers to which it is doubtful that we will ever know.

Yet, there seems to be a certain percentage of the population whose mental processes are such that they can't tolerate an unanswered question and insist on providing one on the basis of their own predilection and prejudices. Once they have done so, based on no genuine evidence, they often insist that others agree with them and sometimes savagely denigrate those who either hold another hypothesis or who are willing to suspend judgment until further evidence is in.

Such is the nature of the UFO controversy.

During World War II, pilots, American, British, and German, flying over France and Germany, saw bright objects, described as looking like large balls of glowing gas, following them and seemingly pacing them on their missions. None of the forces, American, British, or German, knew what they were, and all three were apprehensive about them, fearing that they may be some enemy weapon, and were duly reported. During dogfights, these objects seemed to stand off and observe, but did not participate, so the combatants lost their fear of them. But they still had no idea of who or what they were. American pilots dubbed them "foo fighters" (even though they didn't fight). So–what or who were they?

Then, in 1947, there were the nine objects that private pilot Kenneth Arnold saw flying past Mount Rainier in Washington State. Arnold's description of them as "saucer-shaped" was picked up by the news media, and the term "flying saucer" was born. Arnold was a business man flying his private plane from Chehelis to Yakima in Washington State, and assumed that they were some new kind of jet aircraft. He had no reason to perpetrate a hoax, and merely reported what he had observed. So—what did Arnold see?

I'm not about to go through the whole list of presumed sightings (!!). Some of the later ones—indeed, the vast majority of them—are blatant hoaxes and publicity stunts. But there are some—enough—to raise legitimate questions.

For example, a fellow I knew back in the mid-Fifties by the name of Maury Stilwell. Maury had worked at the White Sands Proving Ground (now, White Sands Missile Range) testing German V-2 rockets that had been captured at the end of World War II (he knew Wernher von Braun), and later, testing the U. S. Navy's Viking rockets. Maury told me that after the first few launches, every time they had another test-launch, a couple of these "objects," which he described using terms that sounded like the American fighter pilots' descriptions of the "foo fighters," would appear, intercept the launched V-2 or Viking, and following it up, apparently pacing it and observing it closely. He said that "whatever the hell they were, they picked them up on radar and other missile tracking gear, so we weren't just 'seeing things.' They were really there. And nobody knew what they were!"

And Maury was no flake. He was a trained observer. And you know that "rocket scientist" it doesn't take to understand something? Well, Maury was a rocket scientist.

I've had other people tell me that they've seen UFOs, but only a couple of them were 1) credible stories told by b) credible people. Usually in the nature of "I saw this thing, and I don't know what the hell it was!"

Have I ever seen a UFO myself? Only what I described in a post above. Nothing I would be willing to assert was an alien spacecraft.

So I'm not going to write it all off as a collection of Froot-Loops on a rampage. Ninety-nine and forty-four one-hundredths percent of it, yes! If someone tries to tell me that he or she has met the Ambassador from Arcturus 12, that person will receive a well-deserved fish-eye unless they can provide incontrovertible proof of what they say. But I'm not about to write all of it off.

And as to the possibility of life on other planets and possibility of extraterrestrials visiting earth, let me refer you to what I posted above. Anyone who categorically denies this possibility simply doesn't know enough science (astronomy, biology) to know what they're talking about.

I'd like to know. But my curiousity is not such that I have to leap to some unfounded conclusion and then defend it with my life.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:15 PM

Sounds sensible to me, Ron. What you said, I mean.

I am also puzzled by people who simply MUST have a definite "yes" or "no" answer for every darned thing under the sun that one might happen to mention. I don't know what their problem is, but it might be the fear of uncertainty itself, I suppose.

Another area of controversy that's quite interesting is the various tales and incidents involving what are purported to be Bigfoot or Yeti-type creatures. Most of those incidents have occurred in mountainous or heavily forested and remote areas.

They could be sightings of bears or other known animals. They could be sightings of something else, not yet confirmed. Some of them are surely hoaxes...but I doubt that all of them are.

And yet, I'm sure you can find a host of people who will simply INSIST that there's no truth to any of it and that there CAN'T be any truth to any of it! Where they get such rocklike faith in their blithe assumptions, I don't know...but it rivals the faith of born-again Christians or Islamic Jihadists, in that it is based on KNOWING something without benefit of any evidence, experiential or otherwise...but merely on the basis of hearsay, and personal preference. That's a form of religious faith, not an impartial or informed opinion about something.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:16 PM

naawww,LH...I don't take it personally. We juggle this on a sorta regular basis. I have no interest in making a serious hobby of debunking folks theories....just in being sure all points of view are represented and showing why it's risky to take too big of a leap.

Like Don F., I feel no particular need to HAVE answers to every mystery. It would be nice to have some of the more interesting ones 'solved', but with so many 'what ifs' involved, I ain't gonna make any silly bets.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:41 PM

Yeah. ;-) And just think if we got EVERYTHING mysterious answered in a final and conclusive manner!

What the heck would we all do after that? It could get kind of dull.

Subject: RE: BS: UFOs do not exist!
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jan 08 - 03:48 PM

Well, this thread has gone from 'UFOs of alien origin might exist' from 'don't be so silly'. That's something, anyway.