Folklore: Travelers in America

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Janie
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:06 PM

Good work all.

Janie

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:44 PM

There is more than one big man here.

In the movie, Hondo, John Wayne said, "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness" Bollox! it's a sign of an asshole.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM

Dear Alaska Mike:

In the land of the polar bear and whale
lives a lad who we a wish good wassail
Who can be miffed a boyo who
is the first to put out the hand of peace to you

Hand taken, e-pints all around... Cheers friend.
Lasho Patragi (good easter)
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:46 PM

I can admit that sometimes I'm wrong. Just last year, in July I believe, I thought that I was mistaken.

but I was wrong.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:36 PM

Alaska Mike - I wish more people would admit that sometimes they make a mistake by voicing opinions that are hurtful. Its so much easier to "get on with it" when you respect one another. Hats off to you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM

I once told a Sax player that, to me, a sax sounds like a big kazoo. She said, "Oh, you are wrong"! That's what I mean by arguing with an opinion. To me, rock and roll is noise and your opinion of my opinion doesn't change anything. If you like rock and roll, fine, enjoy it, just remember, I'm condemning the noise, not you.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:41 AM

And, Mike is a very big man, in every sense of the word.
One can not really argue that an opinion is wrong, only that you don't agree with it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Mike, we all put our foot in it from time to time, and me more than most. But it takes a big man to apologise.

(Does anyone imagine George W Bush doing that?)

All is nice, pink and fluffy now, as my daughter says. Go on, InOBU, gizzasmile!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:24 AM

When I was 17, a group of itinerant Irish "Travelers" convinced my uncle Frank to let them re-roof his home. They estimated the job at $800, but ran into some structural problems which they "repaired" for an additional sum. When the job was done, they handed him a bill for $2,500 which he did not have. So my uncle borrowed the money from the bank, paid the bill and the roofers went along on their way.

Later that month, a summer rain storm came through and Frank found that his "new" roof leaked a bit. So he asked my dad to check out the problem. (Frank had been injured during WW2 and had trouble climbing ladders.)   For the next 3 weekends, my dad, my brother and I re-roofed my uncle's home. We estimated that the "roofers" probably spent no more than a couple hundred dollars at most and that they had damaged the roof in their efforts.

My uncle was one of many elderly or disabled individuals that were conned out of their hard earned money by this group of crooks. The experience left a long lasting impression on me.   I have no hatred of the Irish, fact is I am part Irish myself. But I have no use whatsoever for thieves and conmen. I apologize for any misunderstanding my original comment might have caused. It was an insensitive statement that I made without much thought.

Mike

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:10 AM

Almost forgot.

Happy Easter everyone!

CB

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:09 AM

Ahh if only the stealing of children had been true then maybe I could have gotten stolen by a traveller and been brought up in what I have recently found to be a dynamic and vibrant culture! It was hell being brought up in post-war Milwaukee, I'll tell you. I managed to escape at seventeen and have been "escaping" ever since. On the run, so to speak.

I was ignorant of (but not bigotted about) the travellers in the USA. My ONLY awareness of them was a recording of the song, The Travelling People.

I remember the incident of the parking lot video and being non-plussed when it was brought out that the mom and daughter were travellers! At the time I wasn't aware of any of the "issues" surrounding the incident or the lives and culture of these people.

My learning of them and my coming to appreciate them as well I attribute to InOBU's postings on the subject.

Thank you InOBU!

Perhaps Alaska Mike will take thoughtful consideration of your information into his heart and by doing change it. I imagine he is not truly klan but probably more affected by the long winters of his homeplace.

CB

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:31 AM

I agree, dianavan. Though I have not met Alaska Mike, reports from others who have met him do not indicate a person that would mean harm, I believe he was using the stereotype for an innocent joke, on his part.

As to the Roma sensitivity, that is hardly surprising, given our history of persecution. As we say "once burnt by hot milk, you learn to blow at yoghurt too!"

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:50 AM

Alaska Mike - What you said was "stereotyping." We all let it slip occasionally, the trick is recognizing it and realizing that what may have been a joke to you, can be extremely hurtful to others.

If someone potrtays my ancestors as "drunks", I am extremely offended. I wouldn't like it one bit of someone stereotyped them as "rip-offs" or "gyps"! Stereotypes are harmful to the image of any cultural group.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:06 PM

The first thing we could all usefully do is to acknowledge that we all, to a varying degree, carry the baggage of some prejudice, against this group or that, depending on our own background, upbringing, education, experience etc. Generalisations are usegul/easy, and they are often abused. Why - even "don't accept sweeties from a stranger" is a useful generalisation for parents teaching their kids. Nevertheless, even this lesson can often be wrong and is part of the armour we build around us for safety's sake. Unfortunately this armour also serves to separate us from one another.

The next thing we can usefully do is to engage logic, and cut our way out of the armour of prejudices to say "hi" to the next person.

And try hard to avoid passing on our prejudices to others.

Romania-origin Romanys abound in my homeland. And yes, they are persecuted and misunderstood there also. But because I am myself 1/16 or 1/32 Vlach, a sister race (but much smaller) to the Romanys, I have always sympathised with them. And my personal experience of them (one or two friends, some people that worked for us from time to time) have always been of a people that are fiercely and justifiably proud, hard working, with a rich culture to support them. My best Christmas ever was at the age of 10, when my grandmother was in her last hours, and I was sent to spend the holidays with the family of the Romany lady that was helping look after my gran, to avoid me having the "bad experience of death". While I now disagree with the logic of that move, the way that family and all the other families in their camp took me in, looked after me, showed me things and loved me as an innocent child of 10 will be always among my happiest memories.

My grandfather used to speak Vlach, but my mother only learned how to count from him. And I haven't even learned that, to my shame - I know it was similar to the Roma numbers, as I was recognising the words being used over a card game that Romany Christmas.

My view: I am the poorer for having lost that part of my background irretrievably. They are rich for having preserved theirs.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

It does kendall. Personal experiences with individuals from some ethnic group or other are never adequate grounds for making generalisations about the group as a whole.

When the personal experiences have been good ones, and the generalisations are favourable, maybe there's no harm in it. But there is harm when it's the other way.

I could introduce you to people from various ethnic groups who fit pretty well into all kinds of unfavourable streotypes of that group, and to others who'd be completely the other way. It's a serious mistake ever to allow our experiences of one person to colour our opinions of another.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

It is obvious that you two have very different experiences with the Travellers, and those different experiences color your opinions of them. That does not make either of you right or wrong.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:01 PM

On the fields of Poland the dust of our family is scattered
By racists who laughed as they butchered our kin
The death camps now empty, but the work carries on
We're sterilized and jailed and for the stain of our skin

And you who laugh and spread racist lies
ask us why our skin is so terribly thin
That we can't see the humor when invective flies
We should laugh and take it square on the chin

We're no longer your slaves no longer your tools
What you think we don't care a wit
Roma opre, we were never their fools
Let them laugh as they expouse their (fill in the blank)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 10:39 PM

Dear Mrrzy: You right...
"The Travelers got to the news here when a woman was caught on video absolutely whaling on her small daughter... and when she talked to the press and the cops, I think she was thrown out of the group, en plus. Poor things - both mom and daughter... " Every fact in your recollection, though supportable in the press, is wrong. She was not thrown out of her family or ethnic community, courts found she did NOT abuse her child, who is back with her, she is a friend of mine, and a good parent.
Alaska Mike, Happy birthday again. As to thin skin, a dear friend of mine is in jail, presently for being a "gypsy" in the US, an Irish Traveller, serving five years for a judge's bigotry. This is only one of many instances I live with every day. The ashes of 1/3 of the Roma community of Europe cover the fields of Auswitz and frankly, you prove your supporter who said you are not a racist wrong. I may be thin skinned about racism, better that than being a nazi.
Romale, shavale, arrack sa gyzhen, dikhes lende ando Mudcat.
Baxtale, Sar o Romale hai Sar o Gypsuria.
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 08:46 PM

InOBU is of the humorless class,
His sensitivity shatters like glass,
If he can't take a joke,
I suggest that he poke,
His head up his sensitive ass.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 08:07 PM

And Christy Moore and Johnny Doran and...........I could go on for a long time on this one.

Mick

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 08:00 PM

Mike is not a racist. He made a joke, lighten up.Some of these people were outed on 60 Minutes years ago. Whether or not they represent the whole culture is debatable, but the crooks among them are scum. Just like any other culture.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:35 PM

It's a lot better Mrrzy, to check out the facts in half-remembered stories, than just to recycle them, on the basis of oartially remmebered media reports that were partial (in both senses) in the first place.

"We had something in the papers, I seem to remember, here about some Jew/Asian/etc who was in trouble for..."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM

The Travelers got to the news here when a woman was caught on video absolutely whaling on her small daughter... and when she talked to the press and the cops, I think she was thrown out of the group, en plus. Poor things - both mom and daughter...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 02:40 PM

"The Los Angeles Police Fraud Detectives" - these being the "few bad apples" they always say you find in every police force?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 11:14 AM

Dear Dianavan:
Lovely story! I am mystified at the persistance of the child kidnap myth... it persists today still directed at Roma and Travellers even though there is not a single recorded case of a child kidnapped by "Gypsies" while governments all over the world including the US constantly threaten and do sometimes take children away from the nomadic peoples of their countries... go figure! As to their place in keeping alive the folk tradition, boy are you ever right! Where would Irish piping be today without the teaching of John Keenan, Paddy Keenan's late lamented father.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 11:46 PM

When I was a little girl, the travellers would come to our neighborhood to sell a pick-up truck of wooden lawn furniture, heaped to the sky. We would run after the truck chatting with the men who always joked, teased and laughed with us. It was great fun until my mother ended it by saying, "Don't you know they steal little children?" I can maybe understand the caution these days but back then it was nothing but fear of the unknown. Its probably the same now only more so.

The fact that they hang on the fringe of society, that they prefer travelling and that they "keep to themselves" makes it easy to blame them for just about anything.

Later on, I was in Ireland and met some travellers. I heard their language, their stories and their songs. I sometimes wonder if there would be any Irish folk tradition if it hadn't been protected and kept alive by these folks. It was an honour to spend time with them.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:45 PM

No one asked me if they did a good job on the barn roof.

My only reason for commenting was that I had personal knowledge of a specific incident. I was answering the original question.

(I would not hire them (this particular contact), but my husband would.)

This specific incident is far too complex to be used as an example of discrimination (yea or nay) or of a larger culture. If the discussion is about discrimination, urban legends, or culture, then so be it. But my comments don't belong in that discussion.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:23 PM

I don't play games, InOBU. I am sure I am just as ignorant as most people with regard to Travellers. My prejudices (and I strongly suspect those of many others,) are purely the result of what has been presented in the media on this subject and should not be confused in any way with racism on my part. Hell, I was barely aware that any of them claimed to be of any nationality whatsoever. I am totally prepared to accept new (to me) information such as has been presented here thus far, that may serve to alter my perceptions.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM

Well Alan... let's look at the danger of stereotyping.... one out of every ten Black American males are currently in jail, somewhere near 70% of those who go to jail for selling drugs or using drugs are Black, though they are about 22% of the American popluation, however the vast majority of those who sell or use drugs are white... begin to get the danger of the game you are playing on this board? The fact is for a minor breach of contract or for nothing more than a manufactured commplaint, a Traveller is charged with a felony, where non-Travellers go to civil court.
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Allan C.
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:43 AM

Here is yet another instance in which a few bad apples have reinforced the stereotype.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM

Thank you Larry, for keeping the beacon focused. Travellers and Romani are arguably the most victimized ethnic/racial group in the world. I am amazed by the number of people I run into who consider themselves to be "enlightened" and "progressive" but seem to have saved all their stereotypes and biases for these people, as if they are the final bastion of permissible discrimination.

I appreciate your speaking out on this issue and responding to the red lights that flash when people make innoccuous comments. So many people fell themselves to be free of racism only because the days of segregation and KKK lynchings are over. Those were only the tip of the iceburg. We all need to take time to explore our inner workings and understand racism, and learn how to discern it in ourselves.

Once again, Thanks!
Bill Carlsen
Lompoc, CA

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM

Beacon of light - with occasional flashes of darkness...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:51 AM

By the way folks... when I say here, tired of dealing with this here, I mean Earth, not Mudcat... which I hope is a beacon of light ...
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:29 AM

I suppose when you think about those kinds of lies about travellers are a category of urban legend, and therfore a branch of folklore. They probably go back thousands of years, and have been used about all kinds of groups who at various times have been marginalised.

And, as with all all urban legends, sometimes real things happen that match the stories in some way, and help keep them going, - but even without that they have great staying power.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 06:12 AM

Hi Mary:
A very good description of Traveller culture. Often Travellers have painted for the same families for generations with great pride in their work. But, after centuries of discrimination, oppression and genocide, they are a very reclusive culture. In Honesdale PA. the same judge who sentenced the Long Island highschool rapists to four months in Youth camp, sent a young Traveller to prison for five years for showing up in town. He was charged with three misdimenors, all without a complainant, after a racial profiled stop. He has been in jail for over a year now and turned down for parol on the idiotic belief that his ethnicity is proof of both criminial intent and belonging to a criminal syindicate... his ethnic group. All the experts who have done field work within the community agree that this is pure myth. However, judges go on the advice of the National Association of Bunco Investigators, a racist hate group with NO members qualifed to speak about race and ethnicity. In fact, in every other nation, such as Canada, such organisations of police enthusiasts have been disbanded after law suits. The theory they work on has been abandoned in Ireand and Briton over twenty years ago.
Frankly I am a tired man, dealing with this age old prejudice here.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

I talked to one last week. It's my impression that he prefers not to talk to many people, especially ones he doesn't know. The family has painted our barn roof...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 09:32 PM

Is our friend in Alasaka a racist, was my comment a personal attack? Well, let's face it, racism comes out of ignorence, and frankly if you make a racist comment, you are a racist and have an obligation to educate yourself. Do I dislike our friend for being a racist, not a bit of it. So, here is the first lesson for both Alaska Mike and his supporter Allan.
The article linked above, by Allan, uses as its source Don Wright, an "expert" on Irish Travellers. How did he become an expert, did he get a Ph.D. as did Dr. Ruth Andersen or Dr. Ian Hancock, who would call the above comments clearly racist? No, he writes travel books for RV owners. To my knowledge, he has not been published on the topic of law or culture and his other authors credit is How To Buy an RV and Save Thousands of Dollars. I presume that motor homes are his foremost qualification, but perhaps not… I offer the following quote, with heartfelt thanks to Tony Austin, a tourist from the UK, who followed advice from Mr. Wright and posted this quote to a web travel diary on his American journey:
… Don Wright should be strung up for his Free Campgrounds book, it is the most inaccurate publication I have *ever* seen. He doesn't know East from West, he puts 5 miles when it is 15, some camp grounds haven't existed for years and he thinks that Lake Powell is near Cedar Breaks - they're 100 miles apart, plus there are loads of typos. And that's just a selection of the errors which *we* have found with our limited use. We glanced through his book on How To Buy a Used RV in Camping World and were staggered that there was a whole chapter full of racist remarks about the Irish and Scots. He would have had to face legal action if he had tried to publish *that* in UK. I haven't seen his book about Scams yet, but I can guess.


        Yet, time and again, Mr. Wright is cited as an "expert" on Traveller culture. For example, CNN interviewed Don Wright on September 22, 2002, at which time he stated that he had "…never met a Traveller who was not a con artist, and I have been associated with them for years now." and yet, he is still called on as an expert on the culture.

Lets look at some other quotes instead... Fort Worth Weekly:
Tarrant County prosecutors said they have seen no pattern of cases to suggest that the Irish Travellers are responsible for more crime than any other group. Proponents of the Travellers said the group's reputation of criminal activity is based upon their lifestyle, not fact.
"They have been here for years, and we've seen no noticeable problems," said White Settlement Police Chief David Place. "They are mobile and nomadic and have no permanent address. But they've been fairly decent residents here. Whenever anyone starts claiming they're scamming people all the time, I think about how some people think all Gypsies are crooks. You can't say someone is a crook just because you disagree with their lifestyle."

Let's stop the medievil myth. Romani people and Irish Travellers have been the victims not the victimisers... unless of course you believe that there is such a thing as guilt by ethnic associaiton.
Grow ... its more fun.
Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM

If you look for Travellers' with 2 L's you will find more.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Allan C.
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:59 PM

No need for a personal attack, InOBU. Alaska Mike was merely pointing out the well deserved reputation of a number of Travelers in the USA. I am somewhat convinced by what has been written above and elsewhere that the reputation of Travelers in the USA has been sullied by a few "bad apples". I suspect I would very much enjoy meeting Travelers of the other kind.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

Musicmic:
Hey shem, PM me, I know travelling people in the US, old families, and know Paddy Keenan as well, one of the great men of our times. To contact Alaska Mike, look in the phone book under KKK.

Yes, there are many Travellers in the US, and most as fine folks as Paddy.

Manya louie, shem

Larry

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: musicmick
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:22 PM

The travelers are like Gypsys but they are not Romany. They are Irish and have been for many centuries. Paddy Keenan is, indeed, of their number. I knew Paddy and his family when I lived in Bray, back in the late 60s. Finbar and Eddie Fury were from a Traveling family. I knew them and their father, Ted. We all used to hang at O'Doneghue's on Merion Row. The Keenans lived in an encampment just north of Dublin, out toward the airport. I know that the Traveling people have an unsavory reputation but, like most generalizations, this should be taken cum grano salis.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 04:05 AM

isn't the well-known Paddy Keenan of traveller stock?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:53 AM

This has been discussed at great length on Mudcat before. A search on "Travelers" should bring you a lot of information.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:39 AM

I think most of those are of the so-called Gypsy persuasion, not Irish.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM

Check the Yellow Pages under, "Fraudulent Roof Repair".

Subject: Folklore: Travelers in America
From: musicmick
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 01:14 AM

I am told that there are quite a few Travelers in America. I am referring to the itinerant Irish families who were called Tinkers and Traveling People. I knew some fine musicians among them when I lived in County Wicklow. I often played sessions with family bands like the Pavies and I spent some time in their camp. They were very kind and hospitable to me. I know that they have a bad reputation but my experience was nothing but positive. A friend tells me that many Travelers have migrated to America and I would love to contact some of them. They are a wealth of folklore and folksong and they are always willing to share their songs and stories.
Has anyone here had contact with them?