BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:35 PM

That's what the Aussies said yesterday!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM

Because it's April 18, 2004, and that will never happen again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:42 PM

I have to ask: "Why is this day different from all others?"

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM

Martin Gibson, you said "I don't give a rat's tushy if you believe in nothing but how far you can spew your wad, but your type seems to come around real quick when they are lying there dying or terminally sick." What the fuck are you talking about. What is my type, exactly?

To everyone else. Am I the only one who thinks Gibson (great jewish name, Martin!) is a little lacking in charm?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 02:19 PM

Bread and wine is all we need as Our Lord instructed at the Last Supper. Not passover but celebration of His ministry , death and resurrection. A symbol of our belief. "Do this in memory of me"

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 01:06 AM

One of the Jewish ladies I cleaned for had a brass seder plate. Every year before the holiday she'd take it down, get out the Brasso, and tell me to make it shine. Any fan of John Roberts and Tony Barrand will know the song I thought of while I was cleaning the plate. I never sang it of course, and I was quite ashamed of myself for thinking of such a song while I was cleaning a religious object.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:39 PM

Hi Martin,

You wrote: "You may want to believe your philosophy about Jewish kids wanting to participate in Hanukah to keep up with the candy and gifts their gentile friends get, but it just isn't so. Hanukah is truly a minor holiday that isn't observed as a convenience to appease kids during winter vacation so they don't feel left out. Like I said, there are no commercials blaring at you "only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah" even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods. Most kids accept token gifts, in most cases chocolate or small amounts of money. There is no gift fairy like Santa Claus."

I don't know how much (if any) of an age difference there is between us (I'm 45), but I'm wondering if that might account for the differences in our experiences of Chanukah celebrations.

You're right that there are no "commercials blaring at you 'only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah' even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods," but I think that's more due to the fact that the people who have ad budgets that cover the kinds of expenses involved in advertising on TV, radio or major newspapers are not too bothered about specifically targeting Jewish customers.

(I suppose the acid test would be to find out how commercialised (or not) Chanukah (and the other holidays) are in Israel, where the Jewish majority is likely to make it more cost-effective for advertisers to hype Jewish holidays. Do we have any Israeli Mudcatters who could give us the scoop on how things are over there?)

Anyway, although to say my parents' approach to passing on the Jewish religion &/or traditions was "relaxed" would be a vast understatement, we did celebrate Chanukah (and Passover, as well as a few other holidays) as I was growing up. But we didn't celebrate Purim, Sukkot, Shemini Atzeret, Simhat Torah, Tu Bishvat, Yom HaSho'ah, Yom HaAtzma'ut, Lag B'Omer, Shavuot or Tisha B'Av -- which are also minor holidays -- of about the same importance as Chanukah, I believe. Yet somehow Chanukah is better known than all these other "minor" holidays, and I suspect it is more likely to be celebrated by even not-so-observant Jews than the other "minor" holidays are.

As for "token" gifts, while in my family we did indeed receive dreidls and chocolate, and maybe a little "Chanukah gelt" (gelt=money, for those who might be wondering), I knew other Jewish kids who talked about getting one present the first night, two the second, three the third, etc... and these were not "token" gifts. My suspicion is that their parents were sort of trying to compete with Christmas, and show their kids that Chanukah (and, indirectly, Judaism) could be just as much "fun" as Christmas/Christianity. I also knew of families (in my parents' generation as well as my own) who had a "Chanukah bush". If that's not evidence of kids feeling a bit envious or left out of Christmas festivities... well, I don't know *what* is. (Although I will cheerfully concede that whether it's a "Christmas tree" or a "Chanukah bush", it's actually a pagan form of observance...)

I'm not trying to say that Chanukah has been commercialised to even a *fraction* of the extent that Christmas has -- and if it sounded like that, then I apologise. I was just trying to point out that (IMHO) Chanukah has not *entirely* escaped being affected by a certain amount of hype & commercialism, thanks to the fact that (by virtue of its date) it lends itself to being considered "the Jewish equivalent of Christmas". (Please don't take this the wrong way -- I *don't* mean it to be condescending -- but I think a lot of Christian parents probably end up saying to little Johnny something like "We celebrate Christmas, dear, and your friend Martin celebrates Chanukah".)

Martin, I hope you won't think I'm trying to disparage Judaism, and I apologise for a lengthy post that's not exactly on the original subject -- but I did want to try to explain things a bit better than I did (didn't?) the first time round. I do think that, to a certain extent, the main reason Jewish holidays have "escaped" commercialisation is that (in the US, and most other places), there are not enough Jews to make big business(es) consider it "worth" commercialising -- rather than that Jews are inherently more resistant to the commercialisation/corruption of our holidays than Christians are, 'cos the sad truth is that "Sturgeon's Law*" applies -- to us as well as everyone else.

Cheers,

YY

*Sturgeon's Law: "Sure, 90% of science fiction is crud. That's because 90% of everything is crud."

P.S.
BTW, I've just noticed the Google ads at the bottom of this thread:

Passover - All you need
Great selection of seder plates, matza plates, music, jewelry, gifts

and

Passover 2004
Passover 2004 in 8 magnificent resorts in the U.S & Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 12:05 AM

Actually, I think that is exactly what is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:38 PM

Maybe what is needed is mankind's next evolutionary step, as in Arthur C. Clarke's "Childhood's End"

Deep, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:20 PM

I understand your position on that, Martin. If you feel comfortable with the Jewish faith, that's your business.

I think there have been a number of Messiahs, Jesus among them, and that there are more yet to come...but they wouldn't necessarily meet the description of the Messiah as specified in the Torah.

You know, you can "lead" humanity toward peace and love...by showing them the example. Jesus did that. So did Buddha and Krishna. But...how can you guarantee that all humanity will follow the example when it is shown to them? In short, you can't. A few people follow it, most go their own way.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:05 PM

Yorkshire Yankee

You may want to believe your philosophy about Jewish kids wanting to participate in Hanukah to keep up with the candy and gifts their gentile friends get, but it just isn't so. Hanukah is truly a minor holiday that isn't observed as a convenience to appease kids during winter vacation so they don't feel left out. Like I said, there are no commercials blaring at you "only 3 more shopping days to Hanukah" even in the most Jewish of neighborhoods. Most kids accept token gifts, in most cases chocolate or small amounts of money. There is no gift fairy like Santa Claus.

georgiansilver, I do respect your wishes to pray to whomever you want. That is truly how we were brought up to think in America. Like I said, we don't need an intermediary person or statue to get through our prayers to God. We can talk through our own hearts.

Little Hawk, all ancient rleigions are based on some lore, some superstition, some hard fact and have passed through the ages. Much of the Jewish religions beliefs are based on the Torah, which ancient copies of do exist. The Torah is truly written the same through the ages, but it is true that how it is interpreted has different perceptions. I have chosen to accept like other things in life and even on this forum, what probably is probably a reasonable facsimile of the truth and what probably is bullshit.

The Jews simply reject Jesus as the messiah, plain and simple. Not the concept of the messiah, but we're still waiting for someone who really might lead humanity out of evil and wars, and truly enighten many more then who claim to be enlightened now.

As for you, Guest bastardlove,etc., I don't give a rat's tushy if you believe in nothing but how far you can spew your wad, but your type seems to come around real quick when they are lying there dying or terminally sick.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:29 PM

That could be true in some cases.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM

"And what is that reason? Narrow-mindedness!"

So what you're saying is that they're too narrow-minded to appreciate the full breadth of weiner dogs? Maybe it's just a lack of peripheral vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:59 AM

Okay. It's time to settle this once and for all. (Some) Christians don't celebrate Passover for the same reaons that (most) Baptists don't honour weiner dogs (dachshunds)! And what is that reason? Narrow-mindedness! Cultural isolationism! Pretensions of exclusivity! Superiority complex! Just plain obliviousness! They didn't think of it. Nobody told them to. Geez...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: LadyJean
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:40 AM

From the cleaning lady's perspective Passover includes a good deal of madness. To start with, observant Jews have to clean all the leaven out of the house. This can mean that the cleaning lady gets a free loaf of bread, or maybe a bag of cookies. It also means that the cleaning lady hunts crumbs from floor to ceiling. I also have the pleasure of cleaning the oven. When I started in this line of work, I had one steady client, a very nice orthodox Jewish lady. Two weeks before Passover, I broke my arm. Cleaning her oven became a joint effort. But we got the job done.
I also worked for a Conservative Jewish lady, whose daughters didn't come home for Passover, as good Jews are expected to do. It wasn't my fault, but she gave me HELL for three weeks before the holiday.   
Easter's a challenge for those of us in the cleaning business. But it isn't half as much work as Passover.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Gareth
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:17 PM

Lets get down to the real facts why we do not celebrate Passover.

"CIRCUMCISION"

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:25 PM

Well, GUEST, you remain a piece of work.

A few folks here might remember from frequent statements on another forum that I'm reluctant to discuss religious matters on public forums because it makes many posters uncomfortable. I normally save that for a Christian forum I frequent. I'll defend religion in general, but don't like going as far as quote scripture and the like as we did here. There are lots of good reasons for it, I don't need to go into them.

If no one minds, fire away. Feel free to respond to what I said and not go where ever it was you were going with that last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

That's not strictly true. There are a handful of people who have heard of Harry Lee Wigley. Namely, myself, Khandu, and most of the individuals who have posted to the Mother of All BS Threads and a variety of other silly threads on this forum. Harry Lee Wigley may in fact be the Messiah, the Promised One. Or he may not. But he's special, count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:05 PM

Perhaps because no-one ever Heard of Harry Lee Wigley.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Strick "I'm ... and no doubt others are bored or offended by the very exchange, but ... ".

I now don't think you want to get it, so what purpose would there be in further wasting time stating that two plus two equals four?Besides you are now appealing to some aundience - wondering who or what that might be -which will somehow support your blindness?

But whatever - will you now call the Mudcat guard to have me arrested? perhaps a little flogging next? then drag my digital cross to some hacker website where I will be crucified? And all that for daring to defend the Law of G_d!

Truely I feel great sorrow for the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua that he should have been believed to have given his life for such! I feel pain that the Loving G_d should be insulted by abominations in people using the name of anyother thing to pray by. Cannot you see that if you hide from G_d, he cannot find you!

You can still be a good Christian and learn the old ways, the ways the Yeshua taught ... he taught you to pray thus ' Our Father etc' and never did, nor could not, pray to some other thing - as you today do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:52 AM

And WHY has no one here mentioned the Gospel of Harry Lee Wigley?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:22 AM

"'Drive Carefully

But which side of the road must I drive upon?'

Therefore your Yeshua could not have intended the Law to be summarised into 'that' short form IF the person did not already know the 10 Commandments."

I'm not sure I follow, and no doubt others are bored or offended by the very exchange, but maybe this will help. Love, agape or brotherly love, is the guiding priniciple.

Let me use a more relevant example: drinking alcohol. There's nothing particularly wrong with drinking per se, so help yourself. Unfortunately it gets complicated fast, because of the effects of drinking. Drink what you will, but if you're with a friend who's an alcoholic, maybe you should have a drink later, when he won't be tempted. Think of your friend and try to understand his needs. Love would argue against drinking and driving because the risk drunk drivers pose to others. If drinking impairs your judgement, you're more likely to commit a crime or cheat on your wife, whatever, you shouldn't. If you abuse your family when you drink, you shouldn't. If you drink to excess and harm even yourself, threatening your job, putting your health and life at risk, you shouldn't. Basic guideline for me? Couple of beers watching the game? No problem. Couple of beers and you start smacking your kid around? Problem. It can get more complicated than that, but you rarely fail if you err on the side of love.

See, here's the thing. There's nothing in the Law, either in the 10 Commandments or the extended scriptural and extra-scriptural rules most first century Jews considered the Law, that addresses drinking at all. The Bible's silent on it; Jesus and the Apostles drank. There's plenty in the "greatest commandment" that does, but it's not a hard and fast rule. The line between sinning, if you'll forgive me using that word, and not sinning is thin is thin here, but if you think about it in a case like this, you know where it is even if no one's written what you should do down for you.

Note my understanding of "sin" maybe different from yours, too, but as I said, people are probably already bored with this...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:48 AM

As a non-practicing Deist, perhaps someone who knows could tell me the difference between a Christian and a CHRISTian? Besides being an affront to my fourth grade English teacher, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,the 2nd
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

"In addition if the person did not know not to steal, lie, adulter etc how on earth could they be held to account"

Little thing called ORIGINAL SIN

Ye're fucked from the word go with these guys

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

Because they don't have Jewish mothers !

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

Strick, ok you have your point but, what about this one,

'Drive Carefully

But which side of the road must I drive upon?'

Therefore your Yeshua could not have intended the Law to be summarised into 'that' short form IF the person did not already know the 10 Commandments.

Besides he says as much in the NT. 'Do not call me good ... 'etc

In addition if the person did not know not to steal, lie, adulter etc how on earth could they be held to account?

Seems obvious to me!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:59 AM

Mark Clark: t's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

Yes and no...
I think it's true that for the most part, Jewish holidays have not become so commercial & secularized as Christian holidays. I suspect this could be because there's less money to be made targeting Jewish holidays for commercial purposes -- there are SO many more Christians (in the US at least).

However, I don't think Jewish holidays have entirely escaped this phenomenon. Chanukah (I believe) was originally one of the more minor Jewish holidays -- received much less emphasis & attention than it does today. I think this is in large part a response to all the Christmas hoopla; if you're a Jewish parent and your kids go to school with kids who are looking forward to Christmas for weeks & months, singing Christmas carols in the school's Christmas program (prolly doesn't happen much these days, but it certainly did 30+ years ago) and -- after Christmas -- talk with each other about all the Christmas goodies & presents they received, you may worry that your kids could be feeling a bit left out; may feel a certain amount of pressure to show your kids that Christians aren't the only ones who are having fun this time of year. Thus what was a minor holiday but happens to be the same time of year as *THE* big Christian holiday gets transformed into a major Jewish holiday -- which is beginning to suffer some of the same materialism/commercialism as the Christian holidays.

The other Jewish holidays seem to have escaped this kind of transformation, so far...

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:29 AM

Martin Gibson, the reason I don't ask God is because he does not exist, therefore, I cannot ask him; but since you seem to believe in the primitive superstitious backward barbaric nonsense that constitutes the old Testement, I thought I would ask you. So Martin Gibson, why is your God a jealous God if he is the only God; why does he commit acts of atrocity; why.....oh, a million other questions that a rational man would never be able to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:45 AM

Martin G....You may not recognise Jesus as the Messiah promised in Isaiah but I do...that is the simple truth. You have to choose your path as do I and I respect that but I get answer to prayer by the Holy Spirit, through Jesus to God as Jesus in NT directed us. "The only way to the Father is through me". Also have to say that the way I came to know the Lord Personally is in my testimony which is in the aforementioned website. You at least believe something..when I came to know the Lord it was by complete surprise..shock even as I knew nothing apart from the stories told of OT and the NT when I was a kid. I was in my 40's when I was shaken to the toes by the truth...I perhaps still am shaking. Please indulge me my belief as it is founded on more than just strong personal experience and study. I have no reason to doubt what I believe and no-one has shaken it in any way since my introduction to it. You have the choice of what you believe and I respect that but would urge you to keep seeking as it could affect your whole life as it has mine.
Please forgive me if you find anything I say offensive but I live for the Trinity.The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....the Holy Spirit being what guides me and probably what you think of as conscience.
May the Lord Bless you all. Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:12 AM

You asked who we consider our ancestors, Martin. The whole human race are my ancestors, Martin. And that includes the tribes of Israel.

Why do you necessarily accept the specific version and interpretation of Jesus that was passed on to you by other people in the Jewish faith, when there are any number of other possible interpretations about the life of Jesus?

Nobody told me what he was. I have tried to figure that out by myself, consulting all available sources, instead of tieing myself down to one religion's unalterable orthodoxy.

How do you have such confidence in the architects of your particular Jewish tradition as to be so sure that they are right? They might be half right. They might be a quarter right. How do you know? You realize that you are merely taking the word of someone who took the word of someone else who took the world of someone else who took the word of someone else...and trace that all the way back to Abraham. Or is it the Book? And if it is, what makes it the ONLY correct Book? The word of someone who took the word of someone who took the word of someone....yadda, yadda, on back again to Abraham.

This is how the misconceptions of the fathers are passed on to the sons, yea, even unto the 77th generation. :-) And therein lie pride and prejudice.

Spirituality is based upon actual living experience and personal change and development. Religion is learned by rote. The former can produce enlightenment. The latter produces robots who practice organized religions. They frequently get involved in wars against other robots who practice a different organized religion, sometimes with some of the same founding prophets or leaders! (such as Abraham and Moses)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:02 AM

McGrath forever! Only sensible one in the bunch!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM

Dear Guest,

Using the term "G_d" is nothing but an affectation. Use YHWH if you like, "G_d" is mere silliness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:17 PM

"Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?"

The Law as you call it is more than the 10 Commandments, remember? If you really want what Jesus said about the how the Law was being twisted you might want to read Matthew 23. The Law was being elaborated on, used to by some people to put themselves above others and became an obstacle to reaching God. The point is, as I said before, Jesus said out you could get all 10 of the Commandments (plus Noah's 7 if you look) from the two He quoted. They sum up the Law, the way God has asked us to live. Living by the spirit of the Law is much harder than expecting to have it all written down for you as the teachers of the law tried to do, but that's what we've Jesus said to do. That's what Jesus and Paul both are talking about.

BTW, GUEST, you can find that chapter of Matthew at The Bible Gateway where the major translations of the Bible are available online free. There are some other free sites, that's my favorite due to the breath of translations and the quality of it's search tools.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:35 PM

The idea that Paganism is from hell is a belief just like any other belief. It is held by some people, but not others.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM

But rarely do I see the OT pushed at people in the same way!

Notice too that while 'Torah' is provided free as a zipped text file on several sites the NT is on the web but for a price.

The people here who continue to use the NT as a source of alleged utterances of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua are being misled. See the Hamadi texts for a start.

Perhaps ignoring the rest of the text of the Law where it says ' I am a jealous G_d, put not before me anything...' is a good idea if you want to pray to something else.

But what I do is bad becuase I turn your heads towards the Law that Yeshua commanded you to keep?

The Noahide Law is indeed valid and stands on its own. But it is a shortened version of the full Law. FYI the complete Commandments number 613, but these are not intended for all mankind only Jewish people. I once heard a comical account of this fact by a wit who should have been a Rabbai, he said the Jews could not keep the simple rules ( Noahide law )so G_d came back with a 100 times the burden of Law to teach them a lesson.

And I do not know of anybody who COULD get away with preaching to Xtians that they don't have to keep the 10 commanments.

Final comment - already noted above - the name Jesus is a cover for something far more interesting. In the time Yeshua lived this sound was Ha Zeus, which is pagan. So when you keep praying to G_d in the name of Zeus, who or what do you think is granting you wishes... warm haw ... hot maybe ... but it is still comming from hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

Georgiansilver

Just to remind you, to us Jews, Jesus is not God or a diety. A fine man, yes. But not one who we feel hasn't the right to re-write what was divinely given to our people on 2 tablets on Mt. Sinai.

Keep this in mind, GS. New testament bible spouting can be found on many cable channels at any time of the day by a whole cast of characters.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:17 PM

except that, that's how they do things in the USA

LOL McGrath. It looks like you think we're all the same (all 270 odd million of us).

*G*

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM

One phrase that keeps cropping up here is "I am the fulfillment of the Law". In a lifetime of observing public religion in the United States, I have not seen any detailed concensus of what this means. As a matter of fact, right wing speakers tend to trot it out to defuse any Old Testament citations that go against their arguments. While quoting the OT whenever it pleases them. The average person is bound to be a little confused.

Also, referring to Jesus as Yeshua is proper, I suppose, that being the original form of the name. But why not use the modern English version and call him Joshua? That should confuse everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for answering, Georgiansilver.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

Carol...Happy to reply to your question. There are many thousands of people all over the world who call themselves Christians but tend to forget the CHRIST bit of CHRISTian. He told us to keep HIS Commandments not the ten...these can be found in Matthew chapter 5. They do not include keeping the Sabbath, as Jesus BROKE the Sabbath with His disciples by picking grain(working)This not working on the Sabbath was Old Testament law and not relevant today.. Jesus...as was pointed out by a learned colleague in an earlier writing...broke many laws of the OT because He brought with Him the NEW Testament. The New Covenant..the New law was to -do all the thing concerned with loving each other as He loved us and to living a righteous life - John 15-12 was what Jesus added to the Commandments he brings to fulfilment from the OT in Matthew 5. The whole New Covenant is about doing Right..not wrong things...which is really covered in Jesus one Commandment..John 15-12...says. "This is my Commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you". Do you not think that the total of that one Commandment..if taken on board by everyone in the world...would bring world peace...and love...and understanding..and wisdom...and compassion. and..should I go on???
Hope this clarifies things a little or a lot.
Best wishes and God Bless. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:40 PM

GUEST - It's not that the ten commandments are irrelevant. I understand that the law culd not be changed.

But Christians believe that Jesus (Yeshua?) fulfilled the law by his death and resurrection. Jewish law was split into three basic categories: Ceremonial, moral and religious. Jesus fulfilled two of these categories, meaning that the Jewish ceremonial and religious laws no longer had to be observed.

The Passover was symbolic (Christians believe, and IMMHO) of the crucifixion (slaughter of the lamb saving God's people). Once the Crucifixion occured, such ceremonies were no longer necessary.

Jesus placed the two most important commandments above the original confining ten. This frees Christians by letting them do what is right, rather than what stringent religious law dictates.

Georgiansilver, I think I may have repeated what you said, much more eloquently, previously, so my apologies. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread.

I don't know if you're including my posts in this statement of yours, McGrath, but if you are, you couldn't be more wrong.

As far as my question to Georgiansilver is concerned, since I live in the US, and Martin Gibson lives in the US, and since we are both impacted by the actions of people who try to promote the practices of certain religions over others here where we live, this is most certainly a legitimate question.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Why should anyone draw any kind of general conclusions from anything that happens in the USA, except that, that's how they do things in the USA? That isn't meant in an unfriendly way, just a reminder that the USA is just a small part of a big world.

At one point this was a thread about people being curious about how things were done differently in other religions, and how far they were pretty similar sometimes under the differences. But now it seems to have turned into a bash-the-other-fella's-religion, and a put-the-worst-possible-construction-on-any-differences-without-making any-effort-to-understand-them sort of thread. Is this really such a good idea?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:07 PM

So maybe you can answer Martin Gibson's question, Georgiansilver. If the 10 Commandments of Moses have been replaced, why are so many Christians so adamant that they be a part of secular life in the US today?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:06 PM

Except, GS, those who don't accept the NT aren't bound by the NT and, I for one, wouldn't even begin to try to force it on them. Nor would I try to force the dictates of the OT on anyone, or the teachings of the Buddha or Mohammed or Lao Tzu or anyone else.

In general:

I'll settle for you being a decent, responsible human being. If you feel the need to be saved, save yourself; I've got enough trouble of my own. If you feel the need to preach, I know of several open fields where you won't disturb anyone and the mountain lions won't disturb you. If you feel the need to save me, I suggest a top-notch protective vest.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Hey Rapaire, at last someone who knows what they are talking about and hey...to the others...I tried to explain that the ten Commandments have been replaced in my last little foray into these pages...please read my previous writing on this and see which of the Commandments still exist by the word of Jesus the CHRIST in CHRISTian.
His Commandments are the ones that count..
OLD Testament..NEW Testament..OLD Covenant...NEW Covenant...get it????
We have changed from the Old to the NEW by the Grace of God through Jesus death and resurrection..as foretold by John the Baptist and prophesied in the Old Testament in Isaiah 52.
Followers of the CHRIST....who is JESUS...are CHRISTians. As such they follow His words and His Commandments.
Best wishes and God Bless, Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 03:23 PM

This is what the Wikipedia site has to say about it:

All denominations of Jews hold that gentiles are not obligated to follow Halakha; only Jews are obligated do so. Judaism has always held that gentiles are obligated only to follow the seven Noahide laws; these are laws that the oral law derives from the covenant God made with Noah after the flood, which apply to all descendants of Noah, i.e. all of mankind. The Noahide laws are derived in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 57a), and are listed here:

1. Murder is forbidden.
2. Theft is forbidden.
3. Sexual immorality is forbidden.
4. Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden.
5. Belief in, and/or prayer to idols is forbidden.
6. Blaspheming against God is forbidden.
7. All gentile societies must establish a system of legal justice to administer these laws.

I can't tell you why Christians follow the Commandments from Moses rather than Noah, except that maybe they consider that to be a logical extension of the origins of their religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:58 PM

Carol C., that's kind of bullshit that the 10 Commandments were to apply for Jews only. If that is the case, why was there all that big hoopla recently about that judge way down there in your neck of the woods carrying on about having the 10 commandments in the courthouse and all of those rightous Christians carrying on when it was ordered removed?

I can assure you, as one who practices and observes Judiasm, that there is never any "laws to Noah" ever refered to in any services from any prayer book, nor is there little, if any reference to these so called Noah laws in the Torah. Noah was really a pretty minor character in the scheme of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

As I said before, I'm neither a Christian nor a Jew, but this thread got me curious about the differences in how Christians and Jews view the Old Testament.

I spent a few hours wandering around in the Wikipedia on-line encyclopedia yesterday, seeing what people had to say about it in there. It was a fairly interesting few hours. One thing I learned, that I did not previously know, is that there was supposed to have been a set of commandments that preceded the ones given to Moses. Those were the ones given to Noah, and those were supposed to apply to all of mankind, since (according to the Wikipedia site), the Old Testament holds that all of mankind is descended from Noah. According to the entries in the Wikipedia site, the commandments given to Moses were supposed to only apply to Jews.

So apparently there is a tradition in the Old Testament of people getting new sets of commandments from God and applying them to new religious paradigms as they are purported to be given to people from God, as would have happened in the case of Moses getting the new set of commandments that were to apply only to Jews.

In fact, I noticed that it was a fairly frequent practice for people to get new sets of instructions from God (G*d), and then take their followers in all kinds of new directions as a result. So it looks to me like it would have been in keeping with prior Jewish practices for someone like Jesus to say that he had received new instructions from God (a new covenent, as someone else said here), and for him to anticipate that the whole of the Jewish faith might follow him in this new direction. I'm guessing he wouldn't have anticipated that, rather than taking his established faith in a new direcion, he would have been starting an entirely new faith.

Anyway, here's a link to the page in the Wikipedia site that talks about Jewish Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:30 PM

As Mr Gibson asked about the other holidays perhaps I have to restate the glaringly obvious point in yet another way.

When Yeshau kept all of them why do Christians not keep any Jewish holidays? And if you think that the OT is irrelevant I want you to think about this one, Yeshua left no written records, so all that you read is third hand or worse. Why would you reject the Laws given you by the creator directly and take a sidestepping way around the Law then to live an evil life?

Ask yourself this - how could you safely drive your car if you did not know the rules of the road. So loving people is not enough, you have to know right from wrong to do that. The Commandments provide the rules, you need to know them in order NOT to commit crimes against your neighbor.

If it helps, do love the neighbor as well, but if you move into my 'hood' I would love you a lot more if I knew you kept G_d's Law.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:04 PM

The wisest statement I've run across in some time is this:

"Beware of finding a Jesus congenial to you."

Yeshua was not a lawbiding person -- he ate with tax collectors and prostitutes and was damned for it by the Pharisees and Sadducees. He stated flat out that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath." And if he brought a new covenant to people, he brought a new law: love God, love your neighbor. Seems to me that if someone is says that they are Christian then they must accept Yeshua's teachings and reject the ones he, in Christian teachings, fulfilled -- i.e., the Old Testament is fulfilled by the New, so the Old is irrelevant to Christians.

Even Peter had this brought home to him on the rooftop when he was told (in no uncertain terms) "What I have made clean you do not call unclean."

As for the controversy about the date of Easter, I posted a link to a discussion of it earlier, and here's another discussion of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 01:29 PM

Mack/misophist, I think we talked about the date thing in the Good Friday thread. I appreciate your additional comments. Really the two threads should be linked.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM

The oester hare is a pagan god, from what I've read, and as others have pointed out, many pagan images and symbols were encorporated into early Christian holidays and ceremonies. Bunnies is fertility symbols, par excellance. Eggs is what babies come out of.

Like many symbols that have been copped for the Christian faith, new enterpretations have given a Christian meaning. I've heard pastors give sermons on the egg as a symbol of Christ in the tomb, with his resurrection compared to the new life springing out of an egg.

My best advice is not to get too lost in symbols and their origin. I don't care if a symbol is from outer space. It's the meaning that is important to me.

Come to think of it, maybe Easter eggs are really representatives of space ships that visited this planet.

OOOOOOOWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:38 PM

Ok Mr Strick ... your sidestepping the point.

Your guy Yeshua said 'keep the Law'. Why do you or the other word wobblers here want to get out of that?

Seems fairly simple to me

"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."

If lovig the neighbor as well helps go do it, but HEY - frist know and keep the Law!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Mack/Misophist
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:24 PM

One aspect of the original question that hasn't been touched on yet is the date of easter compared to that of passover. The obvious answer is that Jews keep a lunar liturgical calendar and Christians don't. But it's more subtle than that. In the middle ages the calculation of the date for easter was a divisive issue. The only important Christian group that celebrated easter on the passover date was the Irish church. Since they also rejected the authority of the bishop of Rome (the pope), and for other reasons, their suppression became an important goal. The institutionalized anti-semitism that characterized much of Christian history is probably the main cause of the rest of the differences. It's worth noting that a pope gave the English king dominion over Ireland to 'correct' practices in the Irish church.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:39 AM

FYI:

Passover is the ONLY holiday that the Jehovah's Witnesses observe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM

I am not the type to knock other peoples beliefs but I have to say that:- I believe myself to be a true CHRISTian, which is exactly what it implies. A follower of Christ and His teachings. We follow Jesus'Commandments which may be found in chapter 5 of Matthew and although refreshed from the Old Testament are not the OT ten! also Matthew 23-37-40 tells us the Two great Commandments. Jesus also gives HIS NEW Commandment to us, which covers everything we need to practice in John 15-12. Being a CHRISTian means unswervingly following the words of Jesus. He did not tell us to celebrate the Passover but he did tell us to take bread and wine in remembrance of Him.. an instruction given at the Last supper..which hopefully...if you are Christian..you do! He did not tell us to keep the Sabbath which someone kindly pointed out, has not moved from Saturday to Sunday..merely been confused with it. From time immemorial there have been two factions on earth...Good which is given by God and bad which comes from the devil....I was in the grip of the latter until 1991 when I smoked heavy, drank heavy, womanised, fought often and was generally a pretty awful sort of guy. Since then my life has changed beyond regognition...I fall short of the Glory of God...as the Bible puts it... but I believe and you have to believe before you can begin your understanding..not the other way round. I say to all of you, keep seeking the truth..yes I said the truth..because satan will lead you up the garden path and back again to stop you finding your salvation in Jesus Christ.
I was lost but now I'm found...was blind but now I see....My suggestion to you is..get a Bible with Jesus words in red..or highlighted...read them and then make your mind up....I know that some of you(just by the things you have written already) are not ready to find Jesus...that's up to you..but I won't knock your belief so please don't knock mine.
My website should you wish to visit to view what has happened to me to change me so drastically is http://groups.msn.com/allforourlordjesus Please check out my Testimony and my healing.
Best wishes and God Bless you all. Georgiansilver

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Here is a link to an article discussing the Mary Magdalene story. Though the story describes an ancient event, it is—as the article indicates—a fairly modern extra-biblical legend. We do color eggs red (the dye comes from Greece) and they are distributed at the end of the Paschal Liturgy. I've heard many different legends rationalizing eggs as a Christian symbol and I have no way to validate or invalidate any of them. I strongly suspect, though, that eggs crept into Christian practice through efforts by the Church to coopt spring fertility observances of the pagans. Christians often adopted elements of pagan celebrations in order to turn pagan praceice into Christian practice. Christmas is a prime example of this.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:28 AM

I think that is one of those Only-In-America stories, WYSIWYG...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:26 AM

Guest bastardlove,etc

Hey, if you question why God does things, don't ask me, ask Him. He just might answer you. As you yourself, said "excuse me for not being up on the bible, etc"

Do you always participate in conversations with strong opinions on topics you claim you know so little about?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM

"Flogging the bunny" sounds likes something teenage boys do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Kim C
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:07 AM

I'm a little late on this conversation, but I too have often wondered why Passover wasn't more recognized in the Christian church. I don't know that anyone ever answered me to my satisfaction, either.
I did see that at least one local Christian church here in Nashville was holding a Passover seder.

The Easter Egg tradition supposedly comes from the early Orthodox Christians, and a legend that Mary Magdalene turned an egg red as a miracle for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:04 AM

Then WHAT ABOUT THIS?

:~)

Human beans-- gotta love 'em!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:56 AM

"Because we're not Jews!"

Depends on definitions - in a sense Christianity is a version of Judaism (as a religion), and Christians do celebrate Passover; but there's been a lot of divergence, and different rituals are observed.

The Easter Bunny stuff and much of the Christmas stuff is a pretty modern invention, driven by commercialism. I don't think you see many Easter Bunnies round church celebrations at Easter.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

Mark, I am sorry to say that for some Anglicans, symbol has become far more real than Truth, even in the Eucharist, as some of our seminaries have become more liberal, less Orthodox, more influenced by gnostic cultural influences (small g).

Christ and Culture is a great study by Niebuhr on the various paradigms for considering Christ and Culture-- such as Christ as being OF culture, Christ as being AGAINST culture, and Christ as TRANSFORMER of culture. What emerges in this study is that people wrangling about WHO Christ is, who may be so bitterly opposed over it, still tend to have an unexplored agreement on the paradigm from which to look at the issue. They tend to be satisfied with the illusion of reaching an answer. It's part of what drives the argument that goes like this, "No, you're wrong, it's THIS way," vs. "No, YOU'RE wrong, it's THIS way." By not exploring the underlying paradigm, we get to feel a sense that we are defending some essential trueness, when actually we are as far from truth as a hog is from the moon. Polarity is the harvest, not understanding.

In the US (I know nothing of the English church today), as a denomination we have seen an erosion of the willingness to contemplate mystery, the discipline to attend to our personal prayer lives, and the right relationship with God that would lead us to accept all the grace offered to us... many of my brothers and sisters look instead for personal knowledge and understanding, a liturgy that makes us feel good, and personal power and control over what we think is our world.

Beyond our doors, the rigid Rightwing fundies pay for and get all the press (except when we elect a gay bishop). We waste our time arguing with them and with the determinedly non-churched about whether to see Christ as being OF culture or AGAINST culture. We argue among ourselves over it as well.

To consider Christ as transformer of culture (starting with ourselves), we would need to admit we are not already everything we want to say we are... we would need to ask ourselves far more often, "Is God more powerful than we, and if so, what might that open up for us if we lived like we knew it?" Perhaps you might pray for us, that we be restored to that right relationship, in our own lives.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: jaze
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

Actually, Guest, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi Scrolls are outside the Bible but both discuss Jesus and his teachings.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:33 AM

Elen, I think you've said very eloquently exactly what I'd intended to say in a few words. Why don't Christians celebrate Passover? Because we're not Jews! We have our own rites and practices. If we celebrated Jewish festivals and followed Jewish practices, wouldn't that make us Jews? Or am I too simple-minded?

Before anyone accuses me, I have nothing against Jews, or for that matter followers of any other religion. They do their thing, we do ours - same God, different form of worship. No problem. At All.

Maybe another, equally important question, touched on earlier, is 'Why have Christians allowed their Holy Days to be hijacked by the media and the big-business money-machine, to be turned into 'Holidays' - celebrations of the worst kind of human excess, whilst Jews have managed to keep theirs pure?".
Just wondering.

Peace.
Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 02:25 AM

Ellen, Thanks for adding additional perspective to the discussion. You are probably correct in saying that no Christian group formally observes the Jewish Passover in the same way that Jews do. Still, Christian Pascha (the New Passover) includes all three meanings of Passover: saving the firsborn of Israel and freeing Israel from bondage, the Passover of Christ, and the opportunity for saving all mankind through the Blood of the Lamb.

We don't set a cup for Elijiah but we do honor Elihiah in the ancient Liturgy—The Liturgies of St. John Chrystostom and of St. James—and there is an Icon of the Prophet Elijiah on our Iconostasis, just to the north of the northern deacon's door. Christians do (or should) understand the Exodus story since the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” mentioned in the Nicene Creed holds itself to be the New Israel. We don't need to set a chair for Elijiah because all of heaven and earth (Elijiah included) celebrate the Liturgy and Eucharist with us, praising God and asking for His Mercy.

The Orthodox Church does not reenact the last supper as a symbolic act. There is nothing symbolic about our Liturgy or the Eucharist. I think Roman Catholics and Anglicans, at least, will tell you the same thing.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: bflat
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

Mark Clark, your earliest post is as my understanding after having some discussion with a theologian and two scholars of world religions.
I would like to add that, Jesus was in Jerusalem because of the Passover. I understand that observant Jews would, if possible, gather there for offering and sacrifice in the Temple. For Christians, Jesus' sacrifice by his death on the cross is the replacement of those sacrifices in the Temple. Jesus became the sole sacrifice as the Christian faith was in it's formation stages. I know of no Christian Church that actually embraces the Passover. It is my belief that modern Christians, seeking to understand their Savior have looked at the Passover as a source, as a document might be, to the night before Jesus was betrayed, with a seaching for the experience of Jesus. Christians recognize that it was as this Seder, that they were given the elements and symbols of a new covenent, today it is known as the Sacrament of Communion. As such, this is not a celebration of the Passover but a reenactment of a Seder for the symbolism. For Christians to celebrate Passover, they would need to understand the Exodus Story and know the word of God which told the Jews what to eat i.e. bitter herb, unleavened bread and that they should remember to keep this service every year in the month of Abib. And that they would set a chair for Elijiah and follow a hagaddah. This does not exist in the liturgy of the Christian Church. That does not mean that Christians do not appreciate what preceeds their faith, it is just not theirs. IMHO.

Ellen

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:42 PM

Martin Gibson. Excuse me for not being "up" on my knowledge of the bible - although n truth I don't really give a shit what is in that superstitious pile of nonsense. However, God still behaved like a murdering thug. If God was just, he would have struck down the people who were responsible for the slavery of the Jews, not the indescriminate slaughter of the first born - and what sort of sick bastard are you that you so approve of this action? If the Old Testament God was human and did what he did today, he would have been tried as a war criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 PM

It was a good holiday here, too. Family got together, the youngest boy participated in his last Easter Egg hunt, we played games and watched movies together.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:35 PM

Martin, no bunnies or yard crapola here. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM

"Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st."

Dear GUEST, that's odd because the two parts of the "Greatest Commandment" actually quote Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:40 PM

Well, Rapaire I hope you had a good holiday, also. I know that there are Christians of great faith, ones who know the real meaning of their faith.

Are they though the ones who have giant Easter Bunny cut-outs on their front lawns and still have a string of Christmas lights up at the roof lines of their homes in mid-April?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM

Martin, as I said, I hope that your Passover was joyous, as it should be considering what it celebrates.

Yes, I've also been to Purim and other celebrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:32 PM

Guest, Shlio

No one is arguing with you that it isn't great that people can celebrate what they want to.

But Mark Clark is right. The Jews have nothing close to an Easter bunny or countdowns to shopping days til Christmas. We don't have candy shaped like baby chicks for Passover. We join our friends and family around a dinner table and re-tell an ancient story for our young ones to hear and learn for the next generation.

The hypocrisy is shoved so much down our throats. All over, libraries are closed for Easter. Public schools were closed for Good Friday. Now why should that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:16 PM

Gets confusing with these nameless GUESTs dishing out messages of hate from different directions, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:20 PM

Ok Strick you want it ... your quote

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

You got it, here you go

Nope he could not have uttered such nonsense since 'I love myself by eating loads of corn products', but to my neighbor that would be poison, besides Yeshua also said you cannot add one iota to the Law!

Therefore I know your quote is made-up or mistranslated from the 10th commandment and the 1st. You may add to that the burden of the following; you are behaving like Scribes and Pharasees; now falls upon your shoulders by taking out of context passage/s from some make-believe account of a person you call Ha Zeus - hey its your choice ! - to show that the Law is not valid, is secondhand, is not primary, is irrelevant so long as you follow some script which does not even mention the very things we are commanded not to do. Ok lets all have a sinnin time of it because we NO LONGER KNOW right from wrong.

Let me ask you this, if the Law was as simple as the liars insist why then could not the Creator have said so on the Tablets given Moses? or do you think the Creator some kind of idiot?

Your claim is then an abomination! Shame on it and those who spit upon the Law with such trickery!

If it were a Highway Code then you could substitute love instead of 'yeild to the driver already in the junction'. Yeah love the motorist as you drive throuh his car in your truck then ask to get forgiven because of the death of one you call Ha Zeus.

No wonder the world is so screwed up.

Let Yeshua! rest in peace by learning the Law and then living by it, that is after all what the Rabbai said.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:16 PM

Ah, now GUEST,Shlio has put me in mind of something I've always found interesting. It's my impression (and only an impression, I've no factual basis for it) that it's the Christian holidays that, in western cultures, always seem to be hijacked and turned into great commercial extravaganzas. Jewish Holy Days seem to have been kept and cherished as purely religious celebrations observed quietly in homes with family and at Temple. Am I suffering from a misconception?

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,Shlio
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

Then, Martin Gibson, reveal the name of the Guest and get on with the discussion.

Like Christmas, the religious festivals at this time of year have had their significance reduced by the commercialism (and, like Christmas, some accuse Christians of taking the date of a Pagan festival for their celebration)

I think it's great that people can celebrate which festival they want, whether it's Jewish, Pagan or Christian.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

No, not really. And you are so ignorant, it wasn't a whole people that was massacred, it was the first born of every Egyptian. No women, no girls. And only a scum bag like yourself would stick up for a people who kept others in captivity. You are a combination of pond scum and crystalized smegma.

And yes, for keeping the Jews in slavery for 400 years, and after being asked a dozen times the age old question of "Let my people go," those rat bastards got exactly what they deserved. Do you think they will ever try it again, you anti-semetic douche-bag of a regular poster who hides behind Guest status? I know who you are, it's so obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM

Martin Gibson, didn't your original contain this: "why don't Christians also celebrate the holidays of the old testament such as Passover, Purim, Chanukah,etc." And my answer was that no-one but a complete and total bastard would celebrate the massacre of a whole people. Oh yeah, and here is the word fuck for you. Satisfied now?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:41 PM

Hey Guestbastardlove,etc

I don't care what you celebrate you idiot. And if you mean for fucks sake, don't say f*cks, rectum breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:22 PM

"Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him."

Paul was of a different opinion. See Acts 9:1-19. Peter had a similar experience. See Acts 10:9-16.

As for the commandments, a surprising number of Christians don't know them for a simple reason. Jesus says you can derive commandments from the following when He was asked what the greatest commandment was:

Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

In Mark, the expert of the law agreed with Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:09 PM

Who exactly is g_d, guest? If you mean God, then for f*cks sake, say God!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,BastardlovegrandchildofBacallandBogart
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

So Martin, you want us to celebrate the massacre of Egyptians by your thuggish God, do you? Count me out on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM

Happy Easter to you, Mark Clark

Those 10 rules seem good enough to me. They came from the Big Daddy of them all.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM

Replies attempt to shoot my comment down.

Strick writes

"Jesus routinely broke or challenged elements of the Law at least as it was being practiced at the time. Paul, another rabbi, speaks at length about the why Christians should move away from the the Law and eventually convinced Peter and other members of the early church to stop requiring cicumcisions or kosher dietary practices. I also seem to remember that Paul had considerable help changing Peter's mind on this from no less than the resurrected Jesus."

You should also have read the passage where the Rabbai tells a person asking what to do in order to be saved - saying "Good Sir what must I do to be saved", to which Yeshua replies " do not call me good for THERE IS NOTHING GOOD but G_d, you KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS to be saved"

Yeshua could not have done otherwise because he was too learned in the Law. Sure he made fun of those who pressed the letter of it while eagerly breaking the spirit of the Law. Look about you today and you can easily see that nothing has changed.

In fact I many a time meet Xtians who are trying to save me with their Paulist nonsense; but, on asking them to recite any random Commandment it has been my sorrow to find they not know the answer. IOW kill, rape, steal and lie all you can; go to jail for it and when you get out become a Preacher believing that the blood of an executed Jewish Rabbai has washed away your sins WHILE still not knowing the Law? Naw.

Besides there were milions of innocent Jewish CHILDREN abused, brutalised and murdered in the most disgusting way that we 'could' imagine during WW2 - why should not we believe thier blood not as valuable to the creator?


Paul as you already know never met the Rabbai, never talked with him, never ate with him. Thomas OTOH did, which would you believe? Seems a no brainer to me.

To me the writings of Paul are fanciful rubbish made up for whatever reason which bear absolutely nothing of value to the study of the life of the Jewish Rabbai Yeshua etc etc

The acid test that usualy applied to the matter was the statement that Yeshua was a son of G_d. Sure .... well he taught his followers to pray 'Our Father etc' According to that everybody is a child of G_d.

Missiah? naw, prophet maybe but not a Messiah. And those reports that state he did claim to be 'the' Messiah are to me nothing more than fanciful lies. After you read Thomas you can easily see why this cult could have begun.

Yeshua was not a TV preacher with a mansion and a hareem in Ozarks! These gentlemen provide the nearest thing today to what the NT referred to as Scribes and Pharasees in age of Yeshua. Remember to a Jew - and therefore to Yeshua - they believe in the Bible BECAUSE G_d told them IN PERSON to do it, *A*N*D* to the modern Christian this is back to front since they believe in G_d because the Bible told them to do it.

Today the Rabbai would ask some to stop worshiping statues and others to stop worshiping a book! There are 10 laws which are commonly cited as the guide for good men and Jews as a sort of shorthand easily remembered rule book.


"I am the Lord your G-d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery"


"You shall have no other gods but me"


"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"


"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"


"Honor your father and mother"


"You shall not murder"


"You shall not commit adultery"


"You shall not steal"


"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"


"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."




My two cents!

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:31 PM

“…Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews.”

Of course, Martin. That's what I've assumed. I was only trying to answer questions, not change anyone's belief system. The reminder and the recommitment that Jews experience at Passover is often deeper and more meaningful than what many Christians get out their Easter celebrations. I hope your Passover was a joyous one.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

Some good answers and responses, though a bit of tap dancing by some.

But I can only say that if Christians do find some meaning to themselves of what Passover is about for the Jews and relate to it as being part of their religion, that is fine.

What Christians have had trouble dealing with and I am sure still do, is that Good Friday and Easter are basically meaningless to Jews. That is not to be said out of disrespect. Enjoy these days for what they mean to you. That Easter ham for dinner has no meaning to us, and although probably quite delicious, is not Kosher.

We'll be going out to a Chinese restaurant instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM

I just went beack to the thread you mentioned and I didn't see where anyone explained to me what I was asking about. Now, I must admit that I didn't re read all 200+ posts, so if you have the answer, I'd like to hear it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM

I disappeared? explain.

And, how does asking a question indicate an agenda? Anyone who knows me also knows that I say what I think. Soketimes I don't know what to think, so I ask. What is your problem there Cwatch.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:57 AM

As to Sorefingers comment about the New Testament not overturning the Law from the Old Testament;
Christ rebutted to some extent the law about observing the Sabbath:
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? Matthew 12

The OT law was also "an eye for an eye" and this Jesus replaced in the NT with "turn the other cheek"

I was also in church for Maundy Thursday where the passover supper was remembered, and the priest washed the feet of some of the congregation, as did Christ at "The Last Supper"


Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 10:06 AM

"According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?"

Interesting, Kendall. It was on TV I admit, but I've seen Hebrew graffiti carved by slaves who were forced to work in opal mines by Eygptians. The city of Ramses they were supposed to have built in captivity has been found, made of mud brick as described. Slaves wearing what look like Hebrew garment have been found drawn on tomb walls. There's even some evidence for Joesph. How much to expect to be found about slaves 3,500 years after the fact?

GUEST, Joesphus's reference to Jesus is found in the earliest texts. It is clear that it was elaborated by a scribe in later years, but it was there. Joesphus even mentions John the Baptist and cites his treatment as the reason Herod came to a bad end. Here's the version with the additions in ALL CAPS. What you see between them is hardly that unsual for a devote Jew to have written, nor does the the amount of text seem unreasonable for what must have seemed like one more failed Messiah to Joesphus. On the other hand, if Christians had added the whole thing, it would have a completely different tone and, I assure you, have been much, much longer. Read St. Augustine's work. It's interminable.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
(Antiquities 18:63-64)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:57 AM

Christianity views the acts and life of Yeshua of Nazareth as the fulfillment of the promises and prophecies made to the Chosen People in the Old Testament. The writings attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John chronicle that fulfillment.

If you do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, as the Chosen One, then the NT is irrelevant to you. You still await the Messiah. On the other hand, if you accept Yeshua as the fulfillment of the OT promises and prophecies, then why still revere the now-irrelevant (to you) Old Testament?

I was taught that the early Christian Church moved their day of worship from Saturday to Sunday to distance themselves even more from the Jewish faith.

For a discussion of the date of easter, see here.

As for the physical existence of Yeshua, I find it hard to reconcile the 18th and 19th Century views of Paine and Ingersoll -- correct in their time -- to the 20th Century discoveries at Nag Hamadi, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, and others such writings. I suppose that, in the end, it's a matter of what you want to believe and what you're comfortable with.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 09:26 AM

Hi Ho! I celebrated this Maundy Thursday at a Christian Seder. Our conference minister(UCC), Sheldon Culver, put it together and we enjoyed her commentary as well as the liturgy she presented. Having attended many seders, both in the reform and conservative traditions, I was impressed and gratified at how the evening went.

Our small congregation is wonderfully inclusive of many "non-Christian" (we are historically a German Evangelical Free Church). I hope that we will include a Moslem based celebration someday soon.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

Well Kendall, outside of the bible, there's also no evidence that Jesus ever existed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Middle East: Solutions
From: kendall - PM
Date: 18 Mar 04 - 08:53 AM

I don't mean to "drop a clod in the churn" here , but let's discuss this phrase, "Israel's right to exist" Where does this right come from?

You dropped that clod into the churn and promptly disappeared from the thread. Then today, in this thread, you said:

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?

It seems like your agenda is emerging.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 07:30 AM

According to Joseph Campbell, there is not one scrap of evidence, outside of the Bible, to prove that the Jews were ever slaves in Egypt. Any thoughts here?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:59 AM

"You say Passover, and I say Pascha
You say Hanukah, and I say Christmas..."

Christos Anesti, all! A day of goodwill and love to all.

Even to unnamed GUESTs...

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 06:00 AM

Martin Gibson,

You say Passover is the freeing of the Jewish slaves from ancient Egypt. It is more remembered, than celebrated as the benign effect of the 10th plague on the first born of the Jews.

Yet in the 'Good Friday' thread you say As a non-believer in new testament superstition

Are you saying that the old testament is true while the new is merely superstition?

Don't get me wrong here, I am not a great follower of either. I am just wondering on what basis you choose to dismiss the teachings of one faith as superstition while quoting from the far earlier and, to some, stranger doctrines of another?

How do would you describe the Koran or the Vedas?

If you are showing respect for one set of scriptures please have the decency to do the same for others. I am sure you are not a bigot and have no wish to insult the faiths of other people, even if you don't believe in them yourself. That's how wars start!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome (That is my religion as well as description btw:-) )

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:07 AM

Er call me a Devout Athiest who should not really know but as a fully paid-up smart-ass what was Palm Sunday all about? or do we pass over that one?

I'll get my coat (of many colours..............)

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 04:05 AM

I'll need to recheck this but I'm under the impression that Christians did not move the Sabboth to Sunday. They began celebrating the Liturgy and the Eucharist on Sunday because it is the Day of Resurrection not because it is the Sabboth. Modern preachers commonly refer to Sunday as the Sabboth but I'm not sure that is historically accurate.

The Apostle Paul was not a rabbi, he worked for the Romans helping to persecute Christians. He didn't become a Christian until some time (years?) after the crucifixion. He never met Jesus.

For Christians, the Jewish Passover was subsumed by Pascha, the New Passover so there was no need to celebrate twice.

Now what I want to do is get with Spaw and help celebrate Passout. <g>

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Strick
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:42 AM

"A reading of the NT can show one that A there is no recommendation to stop the old practices and B absolutely no reason to stop following the Law. In fact that was one of the central themes of the message."

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I remember a number of books in the New Testament discussing this very issue. Jesus routinely broke or challenged elements of the Law at least as it was being practiced at the time. Paul, another rabbi, speaks at length about the why Christians should move away from the the Law and eventually convinced Peter and other members of the early church to stop requiring cicumcisions or kosher dietary practices. I also seem to remember that Paul had considerable help changing Peter's mind on this from no less than the resurrected Jesus.

I do think the discussion of Passover transitioning into communion in Christianity makes sense, though I've never really seen much written on it. Passover celebrates the deliverance of the Children of Israel from slavery, communion the deliverance from sin.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:17 AM

Martin Gibson wrote "If you don't know what is going on in the picture of The Last Supper I can only go............. Huh?" By which I presume you mean that the supper in question was a Passover meal, a seder. But you seem not to realize that that very same meal was (or at least is held to have been) the institution of a new observance, or a new "reading" of the Passover observance, namely what most Christians regularly observe under names like "Eucharist", "Lord's Supper", "Holy Communion". Historically, most Christians have seen the TaNaKh largely as a typological presaging, a foreshadowing or even a fore-enacting of the saving/liberating life and death of Jesus. Thus, every eucharistic celebration (and virtually all Christian assemblies have them) can be seen as, in a sense pertinent to Christian theologizing, a Passover celebration.

I have, by the way, no idea whether any of my direct ancestors were in Egypt in the second millennium BCE, nor (if they were) "which side they were on".

Haruo

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 01:05 AM

Martin, I think that over time they forgot what the message was about and so lost it! Good example is the Sabbath, which was moved from the correct day - our saturday - to sunday.

A reading of the NT can show one that A there is no recommendation to stop the old practices and B absolutely no reason to stop following the Law. In fact that was one of the central themes of the message.

BTW I always think of the man as a Rabbai, not a Christian preacher which I am certain would appear very strange to him... lol.

About the rest of humanity and the Jewish people, I read that they are descended from Noah and as such have their own unique laws and ways.
Abraham OC came out of Uruk where he lived, which today is Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM

Far too complex for those of us with below average intelligence and even lower interest levels. For those in my group, I suggest we all get good and drunk and celebrate Passout instead.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:16 PM

It might be interesting to note that in the Eastern Orthodox Church (the oldest surviving Christian tradition) the Liturgy is structured roughly on the model of those first Christians. Everything is chanted, either by the Priest, the chanters (cantors) or the a capella choir, and the service begins with Psalms and Old Testament readings that would probably sound very familiar to Orthodox Jews. Following the Psalms and Old Testament readings and prayers, the Christian (New Testament) part of the service begins. It's much the way the earliest Christians might have done it.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Franz S.
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:37 PM

As has been said Christians do celebrate Passover. I had my bris, but was raised more or less a Quaker, married to a Catholic. Etc., etc.

I've attended many seders over the years, A majority were in the Jewish family tradition, but a significant minority were among Christians of various denominations, the most recent Catholic. To my surprise, some of the Christians ones even had their own liturgies, rewritten more or less extensively to accomodate a different theology. My impression was that they werecomfortable with assimilation and syncretism as long as it was others assimilating to them. I don't doubt their sincerity. But it's sort of like the time I attended mass with a small group of Catholics in a hotel bar. The priest, about as liberal as they come, wondered later why I didn't accept communion.   The idea that if he was generous enough to offer communion to a non-Catholic I shoudn't be grateful enough to accept it was something he didn't seem to be able to comprehend.   The same flavor has infused most of the Christian seders I've attended. The ritual has been adapted to Christian theology, with a common assumption that that is a noble concession on their part.

Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:31 PM

That's an excellent response, Mark..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:00 PM

Hi, Martin, Perhaps I can answer your question.

Christians (excepting Susan and Hardi <g>) have mostly forgotten that what we celebrate is Passover. The word Easter [A.S. Eastre] is the name of a pagan goddess of spring and has no roots in Christianity. Easter is probably where we get the eggs, bunnies and other fertility symbols. The Christian name for the Feast Day of the Resurrection is Pascha, a Greek word meaning Passover. To Christians, Pascha is the new Passover. (Greek was the lingua franca of the Near East at the time of Christ and most of the New Testament was originally written in Greek.)

Remember that Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. The Jews were (are) expecting a Messiah. Those Jews who believed Jesus was the Messiah didn't stop being Jews, they thought it was just the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. They would go to Temple on Friday evening along with everyone else but would stay after the usual services to offer additional prayers and chants that were being developed to honor the Messiah.

In the original Passover, the firstborn of Israel were saved from the Angel of Death by the blood of the lamb that was sacrificed for the purpose of marking the doors of the houses of Israel. In Christian theology, Christ is the Sacrifice—the Lamb of God—and it is through His blood that Christian believers are also “saved from death” through the promise of salvation. You recall that the Last Supper was thought to have been the last Sader of the Jewish Passover. The Christian Feast of the Resurrection is called Pascha (Passover) because it gives a renewed (Christian) meaning to the ancient Feast Day but the new meaning is very close to the original meaning, salvation from death through the Blood of the Lamb.

When the Apostle Paul came along, he evidently found it was pretty tough attracting converts if they first had to be circumcised as Jews. And since many Jews did not accept Jesus as the Messiah, Christianity developed the idea that the Christian Church was the “New Israel.” Over time, Christians stopped celebrating the Jewish Passover altogether, keeping only Holy Pascha, the New Passover in its place.

As far as I know, there is no reason why Christians couldn't also celebrate the Jewish Passover today; at least those Christians who still feel some connection with Judaism. The term Christianity is now applied to groups with widely divergent beliefs and sadly, as we've seen, some of them are even anti-Semitic.

Hope this helps.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:54 PM

I have a relative who is a member of the Worldwide Church of God (the Herbert Armstrong variety, in case that means anything to you). I believe they observe all or at least most of the Jewish holidays.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:40 PM

I forgot to say-- you are right, Martin, we don't actually and authentically celebrate the Jewish holidays. I'll ask Hardi why we don't, and when and why the Church stopped observing them way back whenever it was.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:38 PM

Hey, Martin: Of course I know the representations of the Last Supper... even though they are a European visualization of a meal that was not eaten sitting in chairs at a table. And as has been pointed out, references to Passover are interwoven in the Holy Week observances.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:16 PM

The last Supper is not exactly representative of how people actually sat at table in those times, is it? It's art, not a newspaper photo. :~)

Martin, many Episcopal Churches organize seders. I suppose we don't quite recognize Passover in the official church calendar, except as it relates to the events of Holy Week.... but the Episcopal Church, when it left the Roman, went back to Jewish traditions, theology, and liturgy and then came forward in time, through the early church fathers, for continued develolpment of its theological underpinnings. Our theologians wove in from the Greek sources too.

I'm very frustrated trying to address your current and recent questions, because they are good ones, but I feel so poorly educated in these basic matters. It's a failing of our denomination, which my husband (a true scholar) and I (a true student) are trying to address in the adult ed and ministry prep classes we teach. But anyway, you might be surprised at the extent to which our churches are built on a foundation you might well recognize as familiar in some ways.

In one class we co-teach (EFM, or Education for Ministry), the material on Liturgics makes a lot of reference to early temple practices and describes how we retain much of these in today's liturgies. Similarly, some commentaries we commonly use open a window on the Jewish forms of worship to give a wider view of what we do today in our churches, and why, and I often rely on this kind of informative help when exegeting a Scripture text.

And, just as Jewish culture is more than religion, or as religion is more than religiosity and includes culture for many Jews, I find that the best commentaries for the Bible are those that are faithful to the word-pictures and shadings of meaning in the original languages.... to shed light on the worldview of the first Christians (Jews) and on the flavor of daily life, whether specifically religious in content or not, is fascinating to me. I'm still transfixed by the translation in my Pentateuch, for God creating the earth and His breath on it, for instance.

We are immersed in the OT in public and personal devotions. Every Sunday communion service includes readings from the OT and the Psalms, and these inform the sermon and how we look at the week's Gospel and Epistle lessons. Clergy and many other folk use morning and evening forms of prayer from the monastic tradtion, and an OT lesson is included daily.

The Episcopal Church has a long tradition of looking deep, going beyond whatever translation of Scripture one might happen to use as a reference. Thus we avoid a literal, fundamentalist understanding of Scripture, and hope to encounter the mind of God as He would have us know it.

How do we do this? In addition to going back to original languages to expand our understanding when we can, or to the degree one's individual state of learning and reference materials allow, we look at Scripture in the light of both form and source criticism. ("Criticism" is used here in the sense of study.)

In source criticism, we look at what can be known from understanding who wrote the text and why, and when, and what it might have signified in its time. For the OT this is very much with Jewish culture and history in mind.

In form criticism, we look at the literary form used for the portion of text in question, and we understand that some forms reflect a message meant to be taken literally and some indicate a poetic message meant to be taken as metaphor, symbol, image... and so forth. Some passages are Law, or history; some are stories told to build us up or inspire us to think on certain things.

I participated for a time in a Torah study group, and I love how the studies I can do today are a lot like the Torah group in terms of process, respect for commentary, and constant attention to application of the text to our lives today-- learning for living one's life, not learning for the sake of learning.

I hope to get better and more articulate about responding to your questions. I might not always have a useful answer when you ask, but I keep thinking about questions people have raised, and you never know, I might eventually have something useful to pass along.

I very much appreciate what I think is the spirit in which you ask your questions. I would enjoy worshipping with you.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:05 PM

As you've noticed Martin, the Last Supper is a Passover Meal, and the Last Supper is central to Easter services. And as I indicated, Easter Services include Old Testament accounts of the first Passover, and make numeous references to the events.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:00 PM

I was invited to, and attended, seder last year.

My ancestors came from the Celtic/Germanic areas of Europe, as far as I know.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

My post was in answer to this question of yours:

Hey, if it wasn't your ancestors also who were freed from Egypt, just who were your ancestors?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM

I do not practice or belong to any form of organized religion myself, but I do have Christian ancestors. Their ancestors (Gauls, Kelts, and various Germanic and Nordic peoples of pre-Christian Europe) were of the "Old Religion". That was the religion (a form of Paganism) that could get you burned at the stake by Christians in Europe and in the colonies of the New World. Many of the Christian holiday traditions were copied from this religion, the Christmas tree being one example.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

McGrath, I don't get your analogy.

Passover is the freeing of the Jewish slaves from ancient Egypt. It is more remembered, than celebrated as the benign effect of the 10th plague on the first born of the Jews.

It has nothing at all to do with the death of Jesus and his alleged resurrection from the dead, other than this event coincided with the Passover event that had happened, I assume, generations before in a different place.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:47 PM

Jerry

If you don't know what is going on in the picture of The Last Supper I can only go............. Huh?

Anyone else who is a bit more mainstream please, and does not want to answer my questions with a tap dance of more questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:44 PM

Easter is Passover, in principle. Readings about the Passover are included in the services, and there are numerous references to it throughout the liturgy I'm familiar with.

Of course it'd make a lot of sense if a common date could be agreed so that the dates always coincided, to bring that out. Logical thing would be for everyone to agree to adopt the Jewish date, however that's worked out. Maybe that'll happen sometime - trouble would be getting different varieties of Christians to agree on that. And I imagine there might be some Jews who didn't really like the idea either.

Subject: RE: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM

More Christians celebrate the Jewish Holidays than you realize, Martin. That's probably true more of Hannukah than Passover, though. For much of my life, I've celebrated Hannukah, and because we have two Muslim sons, we've become more familiar with Ramadon and respect the dietary limitations of our Muslim family members. It may be my ignorance, but there seems to be more visually familiar aspects of Hannukah than of Passover. Even Hannakuh cards and a lot of attention in the media.

I'd appreciate it if you would share more of how you celebrate Passover, Martin.

Educate me.

Jerry

Subject: BS: Why don't Christians Celebrate Passover?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

I appreciate the trys by all to explain to me some things in the Good Friday thread, but it got me thinking more about it all.

As is the case with most Jews, there is not a lot of use for the New Testament. We are quite happy with the Old Testament and the teachings of the Torah. What I do not understand is if most Christians are very quick to point out Jesus was a Jew, Christian events like Good Friday being based on the Jewish calender, the "Father" in the holy trinity being God (as in the God of the Hebrews), and the old testament being part of the Christian religion, why don't Christians also celebrate the holidays of the old testament such as Passover, Purim, Chanukah,etc.

Hey, if it wasn't your ancestors also who were freed from Egypt, just who were your ancestors?