Info: Civil War song? 1861-etc.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Mar 21 - 02:37 PM

Upthread in '04 was a brief discussion of "Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl" as a chantey.

The national popularity of “Johnny,” either filling the bowl or marching home, and the possibility of singing the stanzas and refrain in call-and-reponse form, made the song (or songs) easily adaptable.

Sailors hauling hand-over-hand on a vessel in New York Harbor in 1884 were heard to sing “We’ll all drink stone blind!” as well as “Yeo, hey ho, knock a man down!” (Daily Saratogian [Saratoga Springs, N.Y.], Oct. 20, 1884).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:52 PM

In deep-Southern speech, with the emphasis required by the song, "for bowls," "for balls," and "footballs" would sound virtually identical. What you hear is what you get, regardless of the original.

"For bales" most likely parodied one of these.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 10:23 PM

Q, drop everything and find that Army paper !

At Oxford in 1929, C. S. Lewis was assured, apparently by another don, that "Three German Officers," alias "Skiboo," was sung there as early as 1912. Lewis, a 1914-18 veteran, was much surprised.

I now agree with Malcolm (in spite of James Fuld's contrary opinion) that the "John Anderson" tune was almost certainly the direct inspiration for "WJCMH," either outright or, less probably, through unconsciously directing Gilmore's creativity. As Malcolm says, it's hard to imagine the melodic similarity to be mere coincidence. Gilmore, a professional musician, must have been familiar with "JA," which was celebrated as one of Burns's best songs. We'll never know what, if anything, Gilmore's "source" was humming.

Without documentary or at least first-person evidence, there is no good reason to put any trust in Sparling's early date for "Johnny, I Hardly Knew Ye." He was writing two-and-a-half generations after the supposed event, in an era whose skepticism when it came to claims about folklore was, in emergencies, readily suspended.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 06:48 PM

Andrew Kuntz (Fiddlers Companion) quotes O'Neill (Waifs and Strays of Gaelic Melody,1922) as follows:

"Classed as a street ballad in Halliday Sparling's Irish Minstrelsy, London 1887, the editor adds, in a note on page 366, 'Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye! This favorite old song is here for the first time given complete. It dates from the beginning of the present century, when Irish regiments were so extensively raised for the East India service.' "

Whether Sparling had any evidence to support his claim, I wouldn't know; nor whether the tune he had in mind (if any; he didn't print any tunes) was the same as, or similar to, Gilmore's. At any rate, John Anderson My Jo seems convincing enough as the melodic ancestor to When Johnny Comes Marching Home; it's much too close for coincidence.

Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966, 394-5) points out that that tune is "to be equated with I am the Duke of Norfolk" [or Paul's Steeple] "although its melodic line has undergone independent development". As has already been mentioned, William Chappell (Popular Music of the Olden Time, refs above), considered I am the Duke of Norfolk to be the older form; Alfred Moffat (Minstrelsy of Ireland, 3rd edn, nd, 136-7) is inclined to dismiss Chappell, but this turns solely on the date of the Skene MS, about which I think there is still some debate, and in which the tune 'Johnne Andersonne My Jo' first appears "in amateurishly notated tablature" (Simpson, p 394: the staff notation he prints is Dauney's 1838 'regularised' transcription).

The 'I am the Duke of Norfolk' lines quoted above don't invalidate the argument, as they probably don't belong to the original (lost) song: the verse is part of a Suffolk harvest tradition, and was originally quoted in The Suffolk Garland, 1818. Chappell made it fit the melody, but that doesn't prove anything in particular. The respective ages of the two tunes are moot, but there seems no reason to doubt their relationship. Chappell sometimes overdid things, but Simpson is pretty reliable. Cruiskeen Lawn, which is very similar to I am the Duke of Norfolk (and may well derive from it), doesn't appear in print until Coffey's Beggars Wedding (edition of 1731).

The SMM suggestion of a liturgical source derives from Percy, Reliques, Vol II part 2 number 2: he provided no specifics, and the proposition seems doubtful.

I'd be inclined to suspect Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye of being an ironic parody of When Johnny Comes Marching Home rather than the reverse, but the question of dates, as mentioned by Sparling, remains to be dealt with and I may be quite wrong on that score. At all events, there is no particular need for the tune to have been learned by Gilmore during his youth in Dublin, as O'Neill also speculated. That would be perfectly possible, of course; but John Anderson was well enough known in America at that time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 06 - 02:49 PM

Interesting speculations. Little evidence seems to be available, but the search may be productive.

While checking on British WW1 songs that persisted into WW2, I ran across an item (sorry, can't re-find) that "Skiboo" had been published in a local army paper in India about 1910. The suggestion was that it did date back to the early days of the Empire, or around 1800, but no more information showed up.

"Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" has been suggested as a precursor, but all records seem to be post-WJCMH.

I would not be surprised to find that the tune to WJCMH has European origins. Nothing particularly Irish about it. "Original traditional tune" preceding all of the lyrics- seems logical, and the rhythm is perfect for marching with just drums and perhaps fife.

"See the elephant" precedes the Gold Rush of 1850. Lighter, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," quotes it from 1835, equivalent to seeing the sights; it was also used in Kendall's "Santa Fe Expedition," 1842-1844.
(Wonder if vol. 3 of this useful compendium will ever be published).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 11:06 AM

And any version of "Cruiskeen Lawn" I've heard -- about three, I think -- aren't even close. I think Chappell was woolgathering on that one.

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 11:04 AM

Hi, Lighter, good to be talking with you once more. This digging is fun.

Yes, I agree on the fishiness of the German tie, although there were Hessians in American armies from the Revolution on, and certainly German mercenaries as well as American-dwelling Germans in the Civil War. Colcord's "Le Retour Du Marin," on p 112 of Songs of American Sailormen, is a nice song, but has no credible resemblance I can find.

Now, as to John Anderson, My Jo's melody being an ancestor -- which would throw the whole question into SCOTS as opposed to IRISH song history --

It's possible. How old is the earliest John Anderson tune we have? Anyone know?

Burn's melody, as published in the Scots Musical Museum, is much ornamented by someone, maybe his co-editor, Johnson. It is generally similar, but divergent. That's the earliest tune I can find; Burns' wiped any earlier version of the melody from the scene.

However, the original traditional tune, if simpler (not a foregone conclusion), could very possibly be the root of Snapoo, JIHKY and WJCMH as well as Skebaugh, Skiboo and so on.

In the Table of Contents, of all places, to Vol III of the Scots Musical Museum, Johnson and Burns include a note: "John Anderson, My Jo, John" -- this tune was a piece of sacred music in the Roman Catholic times of our country."

i.e. it all goes back to the Devil NOT having the best tunes after all? But then, the church hymnodists probably got it from secular sources in the first place.

Chappell, in Popular Music of the Olden Time, p 770, discusses the song "I Am the Duke of Norfolk, or, Paul's Steeple," said to be a variant, as follows.
"There cannot, I think, be a doubt that the Irish Cruiskeen Lawn, and the Scots John Anderson, My Jo, are mere modifications of this very old English tune."

But checking the Duke song on p 117 -- a big NO, IMO. Its scansion and lineation are the same as for "Dumb, Dumb, Dumb," which is not the same as for John Anderson, still less for Snapoo or WJCMH. Compare it yourself:

I am the Duke of Norfolk,
Newly come to Suffolk,
Say, shall I be attended, or no, no, no?
Good Duke be not offended,
And you shall be attended,
And you shall be attended now, now, now.

The mountain labors and brings forth a mouse. I don't think we can draw any firm conclusions from any of this -- unless someone can turn up an early "John Anderson, My Jo" tune that has a closer resemblance to our Snapoo tune family.

Granted the final line of John Anderson is a dead ringer for "When Johnny Comes Marching Home," though.

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 10:28 AM

Thanks for sharing the outstanding reasearch, Bob. I've finally started to put all my "Mlle. from Armenti'eres/ Hinky Dinky" notes together for a full-fledged tedious report, but it will still take a while. The connection with "WJCMH" needs to be explored.

I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that there is a historical connection between "Three German Officers" and the battle of Waterloo!
This idea - like so many - was floated originally as conjecture and has become more "established" with each retelling.

Robert W. Gordon deserves credit for observing, back in the '30s, that the "Mlle." tune is first cousin to "WJCMH." The relationship to the "Two Sisters" tunes is something I hadn't thought of.

Like Willima Edens's tune at the Max Hunter site, Moomaw's tune reminds us that just because a song's structure is clearly related to "WJCMH" the melody may sound quite different. Your observation about the role alcohol consumption plays in the "folk process" is well taken.

Ellen Stekert learned a version of the "1861" song from N.Y. lumberjack "Fuzzy" Barhight back in the '50s. He called it "Abe Lincoln Went to Washington"; the refrain is "For bowls ! For bowls !" The tune Barhight used was "WJCMH," and Stekert sings it on her Folkways album, downloadable from MSN music for a buck.

By attributing the tune to an African-American singer, Gilmore implies that, no matter what he may have done to it, it was in fact a folk melody. I forget the name of the authority on Irish music who dismissed the idea that there was anything "Irish" about the tune.

Much about this entire song/tune family remains to be untangled.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:20 AM

Following up on re the Cray reference mentioned above (some of this amplifies on things said upthread; I apologize in advance for any duplication):

Ed Cray in The Erotic Muse pushes the song back to the early 19th century at least. He says:

===

"Snapoo...started out in life either as a German poem or a French song; then Prussian officers, according to one authority, parodied the original song or poem to celebrate the fact that they had arrived in time to take part in the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. From there it made its way to sea, and for a hundred years was sung by crews of deep water sailing ships. During the Civil War, Union soldiers borrowed the tune and poetic form to create "When Johnny Comes Marching Home." Finally, "Snapoo," the sea song, served as the model for the original words and music of the song that was to all but drive it out of oral currency, "Hinkey Dinkey Parlez-Vous." "Snapoo" uses that same tune. ....

Robert W. Gordon has suggested instead that "Snapoo" was probably derived from "Drei Reiter am Thor," a German folk song dating from the sixteenth century. Joanna Colcord instead prefers the French folk song, "Le Retour du Marin," as progenitor.

====
Cray tries to go into the origin of the tune, but thinks it may have been "Snapoo," which is set in the major, and if it came from a black man in New Orleans, thinks when "sung by a traditional Negro singer who flatted the third and seventh of the major scale in characteristic blues fashion, would sound minor to the formally trained Gilmore."

He then cites Cazden's Folk Songs of the Catskills (p 367-9) discussion cited above. Frankly that gets even woolier and less certain. Cazden does cite the Bronson tunes to "The Twa Sisters," Child #10, and it's been used for other Child ballads, notably the "Billy McGee McGaw" version of Three Ravens, but all this is modernish.

Whew. At best a qualified maybe, IMHO.

If we take the tune back to John Anderson My Jo, as Cazden does provisionally but skeptically while finding English (I Am the Duke of Norfolk) and Welsh (Yn Nuffrun Clwyd (the Vale of Clyde) variants, that just opens a whole other can o'worms, as "John Anderson" itself was a 16th-century song with a probable folk origin going back still further into the mists of time. Medieval Era, anyone?

Clearly we have to do with at least the possibility that this tune and song frame are among the more ancient roots of British, and maybe European, traditional songs. But I think some of the "resemblances" are too strained to stand. They remind me of Sigmund Spaeth's triumphant discoveries of similar song phrases from children's songs to classical...true enough, but fairly meaningless.

The Kitchener campaign, having taken place in in the 1880s, was of course a lot later and no doubt borrowed from all its predecessors. That was the one, Dolph says, that spawned the "Skiboo" variant.

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:47 AM

Looking back up the thread, I see that some of what I posted above had already been covered. You guys are way ahead of me! Sorry for the duplication.

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:45 AM

I feel a little dumb not to have mentioned "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye," the obvious precursor to which "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" was the published answer. "Hurroo, hurroo" may even be a trace of the original refrain, and thus of an earlier song.

My bet: there is a tune/song preceding "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye."

By the way, Willard Heaps in The Singing Sixties (a history of Civil War song) mentions, together with "For Bales," two other Civil War parodies: "We Are the Boys of Potomac's Ranks," to the "stone blind" chorus, and "When Abe Comes Marching Home Again," with a chorus "And we'll all be free when Abe comes marching home."

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 06:30 AM

As to the age of the song frame, it would be great to find early examples, pre-American Civil War.

Could it have been a minstrel song deriving from Irish tradition? Oddly William H.A. Williams' book 'Twas Only An Irishman's Dream doesn't seem to include it ... at least it's not indexed under Skiboo, When Johnny Comes Marching Home, or any other title I could think of.

I mention minstrel songs because parallel to the blackface shows there was a considerable tradition stemming from the early Irish music hall, and there were indeed "Irish minstrel shows," and also Irish acts within blackface minstrel shows. That's the way "The Praties / Over There" seems to have won popularity. But no sign of "When Johnny" or its predecessor(s).

Re "When Johnny Comes Marching Home," David Ewen's American Popular Songs credits it as "words and music by Louis Lambert, believed to be the pen name for Patrick S. Gilmore," written 1863 and rapidly popularized during the Civil War, but even more successful during the Spanish-American War,

===
"with which it is now most often identified. The first published sheet music stated: 'Music introduced in "The Soldier's Return March" by the Gilmore Band, words and music by Louis Lambert.' Nevertheless, there is good reason to believe that the ballad was the work of Patrick Gilmore, the celebrated bandmaster, while he served in that capacity for the Union Army; on one occasion Gilmore even hinted that he had lifted the tune from a traditional Negro song he had heard a Negro sing. The melody, however, sounds more Irish than Negro; as one unidentified cynic remarked: 'The Negro's name mus have been Pat Reilly." It is likely that Gilmore adapted his martial words to an old Irish air favored by soldiers in both camps during the Civil War.
      "The popularity of this song is pointed up by the fact that numerous parodies were written for it. One of the earliest was 'Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl.' [sic] The most popular was 'For Bales,' words by A.E. Blackmar, a New Orleans publisher; it was inspired by the unsuccessful Union attempt to seize the bales of cotton stored up on Red River. Blackmar's parody was published in New Orleans, the sheet music dedicated to 'those pure patriots who were affiliated with cotton on the brain and who saw the elephant.'"
=========

Me back again. "Seeing the elephant" was, of course, the Gold Rush-era phrase for seeing the nine wonders of the world; when you'd "seen the elephant," you'd seen everything.

Now, Ewen, a pop historian, is not always right about songs whose folk origins are established, but he's good on this entry. "Old Irish air" about fits the case, I think. How far back can we trace it? I checked in a bunch of books about songs, Irish and otherwise, from Sam Henry to Lomax, and it's amazing how vague the story of this song is.

Of course the "old Irish air" could have been called by literally any title. Anyone want to research it in Joyce or Cole's 1000 Tunes? And the preexisting song, if there was one, may have had any title, subject and lyrics. Needle in a haystack!

Still, can anyone trace the "old Irish air" to specific origins (especially with lyrics) that predate the Civil War?

Bob

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 05:50 AM

I feel pretty secure with the "skebaugh" = usquebaugh reference, since Mr. Moomaw was a member, and later president, of the Virginia Folklore Society, and knew his song origins perhaps best of any scholar-singer in the region at the time, apart from Arthur Kyle Davis.

However, that's not to say various other refrain words may not have been contemporary with, or previous to, "Skebaugh."

I'd say it's like many another song: the disyllable attracted several different words that fit the rhythm, and the song framework almost certainly goes back earlier than any of them.

Moreover, drinking songs heard on top of a bottle or two tend to come through fuzzy at best. So there's every reason to believe that from Year One on, some who sang the refrain didn't know what the word was, and sang it any old how.

Lighter, that's an interesting guess about "Mademoiselle" -- it does indeed sound something like a major-key version of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."

"Skebaugh" has an ABC as follows. You'll see it's not exactly "Mademoiselle," though it has points of resemblance.

Hope the notes arrive approximately on top of the syllables they represent.

What a great song this is. I've sung it periodically ever since '55, and its brawny fun never fails.

Bob

SKEBAUGH

.G   C    C    C    C      D   E E E
In eighteen hundred and fifty-one
.G    C          E   .G
Skebaugh, says I,
.G   C    C      C    C      D    E E E
In eighteen hundred and fifty-one,
.G    C          E   .G
Skebaugh, says I,
G    G      G       G G      E      F   F F
In eighteen hundred and fifty-one
D       E       E      E   C   D    D D
We licked the Yankees at Bull Run,
E       F       G       F      E       D   
And we'll   all   drink   stone blind,
C . B       C       D E    D    C
Johnny come fill up the bowl.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 12:21 AM

'In eighteen hundred and sixty one' is another that is hard to trace back before the 1860's (e. g. "Abe Lincoln Went to Washington" and examples above), although some have suggested antecedents.
It is reminiscent of versions of "Poor Paddy" (Paddy Works on the Erie, etc.) but the form is different and there seems to be no clear connection.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 09:23 AM

Q, it figures.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jan 06 - 12:23 AM

Levy Sheet Music has sheet music of "FOR BALES" The notes:

FOR BALES (1864)
An O'er true tale
Dedicated to those PURE PATRIOTS
who were afflicted with
"Cotton on the brain"
and WHO SAW THE ELEPHANT
Words-- anonymous
Music by Patric Sarsfield Gilmore, 1829-1892
(from "When John Comes Marching Home", 1863)
Arranged-- anonymous

New Orleans, La., Blackmar & Co., 167 Canal Street.
"We all went down to New Orleans,
For bales, for Bales;" etc.
The chorus, of course, is
"And we'll all drink stone blind,
John-ny fill up the bowl.

It does not have the 1861, etc., theme. The text and notes are also available at www.pdmusic.org/civilwar2/64fb.txt
I believe that the text already is in Mudcat; I will check tomorrow.

-----------
Dickinson University, "Son of a Gambolier:" The University website explains that the bell was acquired in the 1840's. It does not say that the song was sung at that time.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 10:09 PM

Interesting that more than one broadside indicates the tune as "JFUTB" rather than "WJCMH." Another hint that "JFUTB" had a pre-war existence ? Or merely that the printer was trying to sell two songs instead of just one....

Q. Washnburn's novel really was published in 1869, so its reference to "Gambolier" does predate slightly the sheet music at Levy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 09:43 PM

In some of the early versions "skiboo" appears as "snapoo" (see _The Erotic Muse_). That is getting farther from "usquebaugh" than I would like to be.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: Dress for success: wear a white penis. :||

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 09:09 PM

American Memory has several copies each of WJCMH and JFUTB (hmmm, saves wear on the fingers!), but most are undated or dated as late as 1863-1864. I think all this has appeared before, but a few notes.
One interesting song sheet (dated Jan. 1864) of "When the Boys Come Marching Home" (a variant on WJCMH) has the air noted as "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl."   

There are several sets of words to "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl." One has a final verse:
You'd better give up at once,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
And play no more the rebel dance,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
Then we'll extend a brother's hand,
And form again a happy land,
We'll all drink stone blind-
Johnny, fill up the bowl.
The air is given as "WHCMH.

One mentions "the conscription act now is passed," indicating that the sheet was printed after March, 1863.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 05:58 PM

"Skiboo" (Skebaugh) harks back to at least the Sudan Campaign with Kitchener, in the song "Skiboo," ancestress of "Mademoiselle from Armentieres," or "Hinky Dinky." It probably is much older. The tune is ideal for marching with drums, and its origin seems to be lost.
Whether it has anything to do with "Usquebaugh" is problematical. My guess is that it is in imitation of a drum sequence.

Oh, landlord, have you a daughter fair,
Skiboo, skiboo,
Oh, landlord, have you a daughter fair,
Skiboo, skiboo,
Oh, landlord have you a daughter fair,
With lily-white arms and golden hair?
Skiboo, skiboo, skiboodley-boo, skidam, dam, dam.
From "Sound-Off!, Soldier Songs," 1929, E. A. Dolph, p. 82.

Also from "Tommy's Tunes," 1917, F. T. Nettleingham, p. 22-23:
Two German officers crossed the Rhine,
Skiboo, skiboo, and etc.
"A well-purged and diminutive version of a famous heirloom of the British Army; in its original state consists of about forty verses."

See threads on these soldier songs.

The 1870 sheet music of "Son of a Gambolier," at American Memory, is the oldest copy of this song that I have found, except for unverified statements such as those at the NOAA site. The composer (I would guess lyrics only) is given as "L. M.," Washington Rock, June 29, 1870. I haven't been able to identify him.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 10:03 AM

Thanks, Bob. You mentioned the "skebaugh" refrain on the "Mlle. from Armentieres" thread, and I'm still impressed ! "Usquebaugh" is as good an explanation as any : if it isn't true, it ought to be !

Wouldn't the "major-key variant" of "WJCMH" be more or less indistinguishable from the "Hinky Dinky Parley Voo" tune ?

Q, I'd certainly be skeptical of that 1850's date for "Gambolier." We need more reliable confirmatory sources than NOAA.

Subject: LYR ADD: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 08:57 AM

"Football" is an American recasting / misunderstanding of the Gaelic "usquebaugh" (sp?), meaning whiskey. There were a good many native Irishmen and other Gaelic speakers fighting in the Civil War.

I think I may have provided this in another thread, but it's worth repeating. I collected a version called "Skebaugh" from Ben C. Moomaw near Hot Springs, VA 1955, as follows, to a tune that's a major-key variant of the minor-key When Johnny Comes Marching Home tune:

SKEBAUGH

In eighteen hundred and sixty-one,
Skebaugh, says I,
In eighteen hundred and sixty-one,
Skebaugh, says I,
In eighteen hundred and sixty-one
We licked the Yankees at Bull Run,
And we'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny come fill up the bowl.

In eighteen hundred and sixty-two...
We licked the Yankees through and through...

...sixty-three...
Old Lincoln set the darkies free...

...sixty-four...
I said I'd fight this war no more...

...sixty-five...
We thanked the Lord we were alive...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM

Several old College songs with "fill the flowing bowl," including one from Dartmouth, printed in 1859 ("Jubilate") but none that I have found resembles "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl."

Digression!
NOAA (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) says "The old English (or ...Scottish) drinking song, "The Son of a Gambolier," has inspired a number of American college songs...." "In the 1850's, Dickinson College in southern Pennsylvania modified this song to include a reference to its college bell:
I wish I had a barrel of rum,
And sugar three hundred pounds,
The college bell to mix it in,
The clapper to stir it round:"
and substituted rake for "wretch.""

The line "I'm the rambling rake of poverty," in the sheet music of 1870 is in these versions, but- should we believe NOAA? Some of their predictions have missed the mark. Could their dates have added age?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

Q observed that "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" seemed to be dated to 1863, seemingly earlier than "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."

However, Norman Cazden (in Folksongs of the Catskills) reports having unearthed two songbook printings of "WJCMH" from as early as 1861.

The field recording available at the Max Hunter site is fascinating. Of course the singer was not old enough, even back in 1960, to have learned his version during the Civil War, but his singing style could be described as "unaffected by later developments." His tune is *not quite* "WJCMH." Sooooo maybe Gilmore heard some unrecorded "prehistoric" version of "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" and put *that* into the minor. We'll never know. No one has yet reported a text of "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" with words that even appear to be older than the Civil War.

The hint of a possible exception may be found in an 1869 novel called "Fair Harvard," by William T. Washburn. It has a Southern student singing the line, "We'll all drink stone blind" in the 1850's. Unfortunately, Washburn says nothing more about it. Born in 1841, Washburn was just old enough to be at Harvard in 1858 or '59, though I don't know if he was. Whatever the case, he evidently believed that a song containing that one line, at least, existed prior to 1861.

Which tells us absolutely nothing, particularly since he also believed that "Son of a Gambolier" (represented by the single line, "I'm the rambling rake of poverty") dated back to the same period. (It seems not to. See the thread on that song.)

So after nearly two years of potentially exciting developments, we don't know much more than we did in 2004.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:46 AM

Found the chantey in Eckstorm and Smith, "The Minstrelsy of Maine."
No sequencial date with reference to the other Johnnys' can be assigned to it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 11:40 PM

Acc. to The Traditional Ballad Index, "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" seems to be the earliest dated printing (early 1863). Unless someone has unpublished data on a broadside or two, no answer is evident. There is nothing in the on line material at American Memory or Levy Collection that helps.

Where did Eckstrom and Smyth get the sea chantey?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 10:52 PM

Ferrara, I for one have seen nothing that would contradict your chronology.

Eckstorm & Smyth are the only collectors to offer "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" as a sea shanty. Obviously, though, the tune was ideally suited. I don't have my copy handy, but I remember (pretty distinctly) that only a stanza or so was given and that the quoted lyrics were dismally uninteresting.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Ferrara
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

I believe I confused "For Bales" with "The Battle of the Kegs," which I NOW "remember" as being sung to tune of Yankee Doodle.

Far as I can tell "For Bales" refers to the Red River campaign. 1864?

Still believe "For Bowls" was a toast & referred to flowing bowls as in "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl," and that "Footballs" was a corruption. Randolph's comment about a sea chantey would work with this interpretation.

Here's a possible chronology (all theory of course):

1. When Johnny Comes Marching Home
2. Sea Chantey mentioned by Randolph, "Johnny Fill Up The Bowl." IMHO if it could be found, this would be the one I was looking for, the basis for the later versions.
3. "In eighteen hundred & sixty-one," however the refrain went.
4. "For Bales."

Are there facts, publication dates etc that contradict this?

Rita Ferrara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,Rex on the work 'puter
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Durn, I'm jumping in late to this spirited discussion. As Lighter said and then Q found, I have heard the refrain as "for bales". I just figured they were cotton bales. In fact I got the title to this as "For Bales".

Rex

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 11:52 PM

Gee, I thought I had something with the O'Neill date. I guess the 1903 date quoted for the American edition is close to its first printing. Oh, well, should be an interesting book with all those tunes. I should have guessed; there is nothing in Sam Henry's "Songs..."

The British were in Ceylon for a long time. I agree that the name means little with regard to the song. Bored British soldiers stationed there in peace time would complain about duty in 'Siloam' 'Siloon,' long after the rebellion of 1817 and that could well show up in songs of later date (Seems to me that, discussed recently, there is another song entirely in which that name shows up- ??- can't remember).

The Bodleian copies of "Johnny I hardly knew ye" are poorly dated (one is est. 1850-1899, hardly helpful) and are Manchester and London broadsides (even though they sound Irish). There seem to be no copies at American Memory.

Someone always wants to trace songs to black origins, usually with no evidence. The name applied by the press to the Dvorak Symphony, "New World," was a joke among Czech musicians; the section of Prag with wine, women and song at the time was called the "New World." No remotely similar tunes of prior date have been found.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

O'Neill's books were all published in early 20th century; "1850" refers to the number of tunes rather than the date.

It is generally accepted that Union Army bandmaster Patrick Gilmore wrote (under the pseudonym of "Louis Lambert") both the words and music to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."

At some point, Gilmore claimed that he'd learned the tune from a black singer in New Orleans. Irwin Silber suggests that the tune could have been that of "The Crawdad Song," which Gilmore revised into the minor mode.

Most American versions of the Child Ballad of "The Three Ravens" are rather surprisingly sung to Gilmore's tune, so maybe they came first.
There is a hint of musical resemblance in the opening bars of Frank Kidson's English version of the raven song, which his informant claimed to have learned around 1830, IIRC.

The belief that "Johnny I Hardly Knew Ye" predates "When Johnny" is poorly supported. Known Irish printings of the former stem from after the American Civil War. Its reference to the "Island of Sulloon," evidently Ceylon (Sri Lanka) (where British troops fought in 1802) is of no probative value as to the date of the song's origin. Furthermore, the melody printed with the formal sheet-music edition of "Hardly Knew Ye" (ca.1869) is NOT the familiar Gilmore tune!

The "John Anderson" tune, however, is both authentically 18th century AND close enough to "When Johnny" to have provided Gilmore with possibly unconscious inspiration. The same may be said of "When Johnny" vis-a-vis the post-WWII hit, "Ghost Riders in the Sky."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 06:09 PM

The Bluegrass Messengers have put several of the lyrics, including "For Bales," on their website.
There are errors in the DT "For Bales."
Third verse- baggage for bagging.
Failure to put some words in quotes- "Ring," "soap." A few other word differences are unimportant. The sheet music is at the Levy Collection website.

O'Neill's "Music of Ireland," 1850, has the title and tune "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl." I don't believe that any lyrics are there; it may have been just a dance tune. I should have a copy of the book in a few days (paperback reprints available used cheap) and will be able to check. In any case, except for lyrics, the title and tune are pre-Civil War.

Listened to several midis, etc. of "John Anderson..." - I dunno whether it is a forebear or a coincidence of tunes. The Olsen site has the earliest versions- 1744, 1768 (first with a tune) in their Scarce Songs 2.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Apr 04 - 05:16 PM

Thanks for the lyrics, Q. My own guess is that the "earthier" refrain was "Balls! Balls!"

There was also a topical cotton-related broadside called "For Bales."
Haven't had a chance to check American Memory.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 07:30 PM

I think it is English in origin, but 'fuck all' is the earthier word that comes to mind

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 06:31 PM

Parody with furballs? :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM

A few more versions in Levy Sheet Music Collection.
Which came first, "Johnny Fill Up The Bowl," of "Johnny Comes Marching Home"? They seem to be contemporaneous.

Johnny Fill Up The Bowl
1st. verse:

Jeff Davis is a stupid fool,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
He thinks he can the Union rule,
Hurrah! Hurrah!
He never went a day to school,
And is as stubborn as a mule
We'll all drink stone blind-
Johnny, fill up the bowl!

(Wasn't Jefferson Davies a West Point graduate? I need to look that up- lost my history!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 05:15 PM

So far, after looking through American Memory, Levy, the Bodleian and some song books, like Lighter, I can find nothing prior to the American Civil War. Unless the name is so different I haven't tried it.

Three I found, in addition to the ones posted above, are:
Johnny Fill Up The Bowl, New Version. Anderson, Philadelphia
1st verse:

Up Freemen, up and volunteer,
Hurrah, hurrah!
And crush Rebellion out this Year,
Hurrah, hurrah!
Up-hoist our Country's glorious flag,
Down with the Confederate rag;
And we'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny fill up the bowl.

Johnny, Fill Up The Bowl!
1st. verse:

Abram Lincoln, what yer 'bout?
Hurrah! Hurrah!
Stop this war; for, it's played out-
Hurrah! Hurrah!
Abram Lincoln, what yer 'bout?
Stop this war: it's all played out!
We'll all drink stone blind-
Johnny fill up the bowl.

White Stars!
Tune- Johnny fill up the bowl

Of the Second Division my rhymes do sing,
White Stars, white stars,
Of the Second Division my rhymes do sing,
White Stars say I.
Of the Second Division my rhymes do sing,
Who with victorious shouts make rebellion ring.
Boys fill up the bowl,
And drink to White Stars.

Randolph has the basic song "In Eighteen Hundred and Sixty-one (vol. 2, pp. 284-287), with this note:
"There's a similar refrain in the sailor's chantey "Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl" which Eckstorm and Smith (Minstrelsy of Maine, 1937, pp. 241-242) heard on the Maine coast. The tune is that of "Johnny Comes Marching Home," which was written by Patrick S. Gilmore (pseud. Louis Lambert) in 1863 and revived at the time of the Spanish-American War. Jean Thomas (Ballad Makin', 1939, p. 54) reports three stanzas from Kentucky with the line "We'll all drink stone wine...."

"The Football Song"
Randolph reports a "curious variant" sung by Mr. Booth Campbell, Cane Hill, Arkansas, 1942. "He insists that this piece has been well-known at Cane Hill since the 80's to his personal knowledge, and was never called by any other name than "Football" or "The Football Song."

Sally Neeley came to Pine Bluff, Arkansas, and may have picked up the variant there. However, the viewpoints of the two singers are not the same.
Here is the version from Randolph:

Lyr. Add: The Football Song

Eighteen hundred and sixty-one,
Football, football,
Eighteen hundred and sixty-one,
Football says I,
Eighteen hundred and sixty-one
And that's the year the War begun,
And we'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny come fill up the jug.

Eighteen hundred and sixty-two, etc.
And the Rebels was puttin' the Yankees through,
And we'll etc.

Eighteen hundred and sixty-three, etc.
And Lincoln set our niggers free,
And we'll, etc.

Eighteen hundred and sixty-five, etc.,
And there wasn't a ninety-day Yankee alive,
And we'll, etc.,

Eighteen hundred and sixty-six, etc.,
And the Southern States in a hell of a fix,
And we'll, etc.

(1864 missing). Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, vol. 2, pp. 286-287, No. 227B.






"Manassa Junction" and "The battle of Bull Run" (Randolph Ozark Folksongs) begin with the line "In eighteen hundred and sixty-one, but are about the battles, and are unrelated.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 08:03 AM

Pre-Revolutionary? All versions I've seen over many .appear to be from the Civil War. Tune is always "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."

There is a discussion in Irwin Silber & Jerry Silverman, "Songs of the Civil War" (1961), with comment on the apparently common "footballs" refrain. (Satisfying "For bowls" explanation not given, IIRC. Good show!).

Silber reports, via Ellen Stekert, that as often sung, "footballs" is often replaced by (I'm paraphrasing here) something earthier.

Has anyone actually heard this "earthy" refrain sung?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Apr 04 - 01:03 AM

I recorded this on an album I did for Kicking Mule Records (KM-148) about 1975. It's long out of print. The entire American Civil War is caught in the 5 verses.


In 18 hundred and 61,
For bowls. for bowls,
In 18 hundred and 61,
For bowls says I,
In 19 hundred and 61
Abe, he went to Washington,
And we'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, fill up the bowl.

In 18 hundred and 62
Abe, he put the rebellion through...

In 18 hundred and 63,
Abe, he set the Africans free...

In 18 hundred and 64,
Abe, he called for a million more...

In 18 hundred and 65,
John Wilkes Booth took Lincoln's life,
And we'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, fill up the bowl !!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM

Found it in Max Hunter. "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl,"
Also known as "In eighteen hundred and sixty-one." Randolph and Brown.
Johnny, Fill Up the Bowl
Sung Real Audio by William Edens, Arkansas.

In the DT as "Abe Lincoln Went to Washington."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM

Thanks, Ferrara! Your posting gives me a starting point. It does look like an old song revised for the Civil War.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Ferrara
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 07:14 PM

There are a couple of political songs ("Battle of the Kegs" in the Revolutionary war, that I know of) to this tune/format.

The refrain has been distorted in the version you heard. The folk process at work! Originally it was "For Bowls," or "For Bowls, Says I" and it refers to a drinking bowl, as in "landlord fill the flowing bowl until it doth run over." Last line usually is just "Johnny fill up the bowl."

Another format for the verses is this:

In eighteen hundred and sixty-one
For bowls, for bowls;
In eighteen hundred and sixty-one
For bowls, says I;
In eighteen hundred and sixty-one,
That's the year the war begun
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, fill up the bowl.

The tune I know is the tune to "When Johnny comes Marching Home."

I've been convinced for a long time that the ORIGINAl song, pre revolutionary war, was a tavern drinking song that is lost now. Dick? Anyone? Do you know what the earliest version might be? I've been curious about this for a while....

Rita Ferrara

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 05:24 PM

Have you got the original song? I would appreciate seeing it. How does 'for bowls' fit in?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM

The phrase is usually rendered as "For bowls"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:37 PM

Thanks, Mmario. That could be it as well.
When reading the WPA interviews, it seems necessary to search for the 'narratives.' Some material will come up in searches for songs, separated from the body of the interview. Stick with 'narratives' and the entire interview comes up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM

or that the war would be done "by fall" - just as WWII slogan was "HOme by Christmas"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:32 PM

Just found the original interview. Sally Neeley was a slave.
I think a verse in the interview explains "Football."
One verse of the song in the interview:

The Yankees are comin' through
By fall sez I
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny come fill up the bowl.

It seems to mean that the Yankees will come in the Fall.

Slave Narratives From the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1938.
Arkansas Narratives.
Interviewers rarely asked about songs, and seldom requested content if the subject mentioned one. They concentrated on slavery conditions and type of work.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM

I'd probably use "fill the bowl" in place of football. or possibly "full bowl"

Subject: Lyr Req: Civil War song? 1861-etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 03:09 PM

In American Memory, going through interviews with old people, I found this song, which is familiar but I can't quite place it.
Sung by Sally Neeley, age 90, to interviewer Bernice Bowden in the 1930s. There is a mondegreen that the interviewer couldn't figure out.

In eighteen hundred and sixty-one
Football (?) sez I;
In eighteen hundred and sixty-one
That's the year the war bagun
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill up the bowl.

In eithteen hundred and sixty-two
Football (?) sez I;
In eithteen hundred and sixty-two
That's the year we put 'em through
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny. come fill up the bowl.

In eithteen hundred and sixty-three
Football (?) sez I;
In eithteen hundred and sixty-three
That's the year we didn't agree
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill p the bowl.

In eithteen hundred and sixty-four
Football (?) sez I;
In eighteen hundred and sixty-four
We'll all go home and fight no more
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill up the bowl.

In eithteen hundred and sixty-five
Football (?) sez I;
In eithteen hundred and sixty-five
We'll have the Rebels dead or alive
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill up the bowl.

In eighteen hundred and sixty-six
Football (?) sez I;
In eithteen hundred and sixty-six
We'll have the Rebels in a helava fix
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill up the bowl.

In eighteen hundred and sixty-seven
Football (?) sez i;
In eithteen hundred and sixty-seven
We'll have the rebels dead and at the devil
We'll all drink stone blind,
Johnny, come fill up the bowl.

The "Football" has me flummoxed. Also meaning of "the year we put 'em through," "the year we didn't agree." Probably references to the progress of the War.
Interviewer- football- "Sally seemed to think it was the right word." "Sally is a very wicked old woman and swears like a sailor, but she has a remarkable memory. She was 'bred and born' in Rusk County, Texas and says she came to Pine Bluff when it was 'just a little pig."
"Says she was sixteen when the Civil War began."

http://memory.loc.gov/mss/mesn/025/191186.gif