Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs

Subject: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,mollificent
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:13 PM

Hey all!

I'm working with a young woman who is doing a project on Celtic mythology and its influence on the modern musical tradition. She's looking specifically for songs that reference stories of the great mythological cycles--i.e. the Red Branch, the Children of Lir, etc. Well, I helped her find some ("Silent, O Moyle", etc.) but we're having trouble finding some of the others.

I have a hard time believing there aren't any songs out there about Cuchulain/Emer/Fand, the Cattle Raid of Cooley, etc. Anyone have any suggestions about sources? (We'd love to find songs that are being sung today, as opposed to ancient epic texts--she's looking for evidence of the continuing influence of these legends).

Any help is appreciated! You can post here or email me at [e-mail], or email her at (I think) [e-mail] (her name's Emily). I directed her to Mudcat, but as a first time user she was having some trouble navigating. :)

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Molly

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:27 PM

..."she's looking for evidence of the continuing influence of these legends"

I doubt you'll find many songs that fit your criteria -- folk songs have always been more about topical events of the day rather than about ancient legends.

But good luck with the search, and I for one would be interested in what you turn unp.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:30 PM

Another of Thomas Moore`s songs, !Let Erin remember" has a reference to The Red Branch Knights

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,mollificent
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:34 PM

Good grief, you all are fast! :)

Thanks...got the Thomas Moore song. We'll do a 'net search too...myths seem to be coming back, so maybe I'll find some stuff. Anuna has been a great source, actually. ;) But I think it might raise a red flag if half of the songs she references are composed by Michael McGlynn. *grin*

THanks again...

Molly

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Sabine
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

Hi,

not really belonging to Irish mythology but well... in a kind of...
"An Maighdean Mhara"
It's about the love between a seal-maiden and a mortal.
Not typical Irish, I know, but maybe of some help...

Regards

Sabine

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:13 PM

Long time no see, Molly!

Yeats of course did Song of a Wandering Aengus...and a quite a few other poems based on old stories...I think some one did do song about Deirdre...but I cannot remember who...what about writing your own?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: erinmaidin
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:40 PM

I believe The Gartan Mother's Lullaby might apply in this instance as in it are references to Eobhail and also the Green Man

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 10:21 PM

The Green Man and the Seal Folk are imports into Irish tradition, and don't belong in the earlier "classical" myth cycles. Most references in song to those "classical" Irish myth cycles are relatively modern, too. The poets of the Celtic Twilight went in for such things in quite a big way -Moore and A P Graves, for example- and they were followed in this by a good few more vernacular song-makers. Essentially this was a product of the Nationalist revival; most European countries seem to have rediscovered (and usually re-invented) their early mythic heritage during that period.

You'll find a fair bit of 19th century material, mostly by known professional writers; and a lot of modern songs, too; though the latter will tend to have been made mostly in the last forty years or so, the majority in the USA; many by "New Age" and "Neo Pagan" performers of the "mix and match" persuasion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 10:32 PM

Pat Kilbride's CD entitled "Rock and more Roses" has a wonderful song about the legend of Oisín and Tir na nog. The song is called Tir Na Nog. Great piece with a wonderful feel to it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Fear Faire
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:46 AM

The premise that there is an influence from Celtic mythology on modern musical traditions is a dangerous one and will not support research of much weight. As Malcolm Douglas has pointed out above, most references are neologistic and it should also be noted that the jump from mere reference to real influence is a large one.

At the level of reference, a true report of Irish song material over the last few centuries would declare that Helen and Venus are referenced much more often than Deirdre, who would be the most common native reference.

Whether Deirdre counts as a reference to myth is another point of doubt. The jump from legendary material to mythological material is also a large one, even where some of the legends have "mythological undertones".

I would be surprised if this research were to come up with any instances of direct and continued influence of mythology on Irish song. The few possibilities (and please note only possibilities) are a number of lullabies which contain repetitions of formulae seeking to protect the child from the Badhbh/Bodb or other mythological creature which might carry it away in the night. The composed and pseudo-learned reference to Aoibheall in the Gartan Mother's Lullaby is a calque on more genuine and authentic folk repetitions of this type of motif. One which survives and may possibly be genuine is in Habha ín mo leanbh which is easiest and most authentically sourced in recordings of Sorcha Ghuairim (Folkways one time, later re-issue by Cló Iar-Chonnachta; and, a separate issue from Gael Linn) . There are a few others of the same ilk. It is possible that a greater number have been "collected" in Scotland and Carmina Gadelica will provide many comparisons.

Other than that area, I am afraid the influence is not of Celtic Mythology but of the mythology of Celtic mythology. The researcher should set her computer to quick-type neo-, pseudo- and quasi-.

FF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:10 AM

Tir na Nog is truly beautiful, but quite recent I'd say.

Even more recent is 'Uncle Nobby's steamboat' (post in some old thread) using name droppings from Irish legends in a modern form.

'Coolin' (D. Behan?) might also be of interest.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:10 AM

If you're happy to take contemporary workings, then Horslips based (at least) two CDs on this theme "The Tain" was the soundtrack for a stage version of the Cattle raid of Cooley and "The Book of Invasions" on various myths and legends of the Tuatha de Danaan. Modern compositions but with many traditional tunes and influences.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHITE SWANS
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:27 AM

White Swans
(tune: In The Pines)

chorus:

White swans, white swans, children of Lir,
Swimming upon the lough
Play the tune, sing that song
The true magic of the sidhe

I walked by the Lake of the Oaks
Strolling along the shore
The music lilted in the morning air
I looked and found four white swans

chorus:

The first swan cried and spoke to me:

"We were cursed by my father's wife
For nine hundred years we swim the seas
Singing the songs of our father's land
Singing the songs of the sidhe"

Chorus:

The second one wept and spoke to me:

"Three hundred years spent on the lake of Oaks
Three hundred on the stormy Straits
Three hundred more in Inis Gluaire
Before we can return home again"

Chorus:

The third swan grieved and sang to me:

"Though the years may turn stones to dust
We must wait wait for the newborn God
Ringing his bell across the land
Calling to carry us home"

Chorus:

The fourth swan mourned and called to me:

The Children of Danu have left the land
Forced by an invader's hand
Their forts are gone, no more they'll sing
Nevermore will their laughter ring

Chorus:

I walked away from the four white swans
Weeping as I walked home
Their lullaby lingered in the air
The last song of the sidhe

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM

The Scéalta Fíannaíocht and the Red Branch Cycle were spoken rather than sung; there are poems extant which are traditionally held to have been written by Fionn, Oisín and Oscar, like A hOisín, Ró-Fhad Do Shuain, but I've never heard them sung, and don't suppose there's music for them.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:57 AM

Adding to what Kevin said, Horslips (Irish folk-rock abnd of the 70s) produced two whole albums, the Tain and Book of Invasions. All the songs on these are used to tell the story, and so are 'modern mysical tradition'. Not only that they are superb albums by a brilliant band, among my favourites of years. If your friend is interested, she can get hold of them here.

horslips


Les

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:28 AM

Yeah, Wolfgang old friend, I did not mean to imply that it was an old song. Just that it covered the type of subject she was looking for. I am aware it is of quite recent vintage. Quite frankly, I wish there were more of these modern treatments of the old fables. It is such a rich source of great stories. If they could all be done as well as this, it would be great listening.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:32 AM

By the way, have any of you worked out an arrangement of this?

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Fear Faire
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

As regards the "Fenian" poems mentioned by JTT, music does exist for a small number of the Laoithe Fiannaíochta/Fenian Lays. Again, more examples were collected in Scotland than in Ireland (it is the same material) but the few examples that were recorded are important in offering a glimpse of the type of music which probably accompanied the bardic metres before they were totally usurped by song metres by the 18th century. The work of Professor Breandán Ó Madagáin (now retired) is probably the most current in this area while perusal of periodicals such as Scottish Studies and Scottish Gaelic Studies will turn up many discussions and some staff notation of the Hebridean material.

FF

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:57 PM

Oops it was me that posted that song up above...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:15 PM

Heather Alexander's Deirdre's Lament is a good song about Deidre.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM

Bonny swans by Lorena McKennitt.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:05 PM

Again, that relates to Scandinavian, not Irish, myth; though there is a chance that the swan in the refrain of that particular version is an Irish touch, swans being a popular motif there. The song was quite widespread in Scotland and England (and later in America) from at least the second half of the 17th century, but has only rarely been found in Ireland; though part of McKennitt's text is from a set noted by Frank Kidson from an Irishman in Liverpool around a century ago. McKennitt appears to have got the song from Roy Palmer's Everyman's Book of British Ballads, where the fragmentary 'Kidson' text is augmented from other sources, chiefly Scottish. Her arrangement follows exactly the same pattern, with the usual trivial changes in words and word-order. It's hard to be 100% sure, though, as she seems rarely to bother to acknowledge her sources. I think she made up her own tune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:39 PM

Actully the project is Celtic legends on Celtic songs.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:52 AM

I echo Les from Hull's comments about Horslips. One of the finest Rock/Folk bands ever, and Charles O'Connor, their fiddler/singer is such a nice bloke as well. I would recommend Horslips records as fine music whether you wnt the mythology connection or not.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:34 PM

just bumping this up..

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:52 PM

I would like to know where I can find the story behind The Bonny Swans and The Cruel Sister.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 07:25 PM

Macha -- both songs have been discussed here. Search the forum!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Fiona
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 09:52 AM

I don't know if it's quite what you're looking for but on Malinkys 'Three Ravens' album there's a song called 'Thaney'. It's written by Karine Polwart and tells the dark tale of St Mungos mother Thanew, who's more commonly known as St Enoch. I had always thought St Enoch was St Mungos father, St Mungo is Glasgows patron saint and there are many tales about him but till I heard this song I'd never heard of the rape and banishment of his mother, well worth a listen. Karine Polwart is a fine storyteller as well as a wonderful singer.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:56 PM

Back to Horslips - a couple of years back there was a thread requesting lyrics from The Tain. This was before Charles O'Connor had his own website. I recall that there were some Blickies to Fan-Sites containing lyrics. A quick forum search should unearth the information.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM

would an english lnaguage setting of Si Beg Si Mhor count?

and Brian Leo's lyrics set to 'Brian Boru' as 'Brian the King'?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:54 PM

It would really help if there was an englaish setting of Si Beg Si Mhor. Thank you so much this really helps with my project.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM

Si Bheag Si Mhor/Fairy Hills

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:05 PM

Thank you!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Kathleen in Va.
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:56 PM

I think Mary McLaughlin's version of the Children of Lir is one of the nicest I've ever heard..sad and very much a lament.

It has a chorus that goes: I am Finnoula, the Daughter of Lir
                            Condemned to die for 900 years
                            These are my brothers; all three are here
                            A plaintive song falls on helpless ears

Can't remember the name of the album she recorded it on as a solo. I heard it when she was travelling with Anne Lister as Anonyma.
I still get a chill thinking about that legend, one of my very favorite Irish stories.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM

The songs I need can be influenced by themes (the plot), Values (what makes a good person and such) and symbols (example: harp, spear, sword and such).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Ossian
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 03:53 PM

Solas. They did a song about a mythological person. Sorry I can't remember the title.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,Maryrrf
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:22 PM

Are you interested in recently composed songs dealing with Irish Mythology? I have a friend who has written several.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

Yeah, that would be really nice.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:13 PM

Is it lyrics you're looking for, or the songs on CD?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:08 PM

if you wish to use that song I poste above...you may...if not that's ok...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM

Which song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM

Have you tried going to the offical web site of any celtic singers? Sometimes they have their lyrics listed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM

White Swans

that one ;)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:02 PM

Thank you so much I will use it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:58 AM

There is a nice song composed by Padraigin Ni Uallachain calledTHE WILLOW TREE. I have the words but not with me right now.

Brian

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM

Any songs on the Selkie Legends would be most helpful.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:11 AM

There is a song called the Selkie Queen

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:52 AM

Thank you so much.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 04 May 04 - 12:08 PM

Coo...I was just wondering how the project is coming?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Irish myth in folksongs
From: Macha
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:06 PM

I am done with the rough draft and waiting to get it back.