BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?

Subject: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Strick
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:23 PM

Apparently there's been a move in New York to allow non-US citizens the right to vote in local elections, the argument being that they pay taxes and should be due a say. The counter argument is that voting is one of the most important rights of a citizen. What do you think?

(Note, when I was watching this discussed on CNN yesterday, someone brought up the notion that any non-citizen who serves in the military should be allowed to vote. I'm with the counter argument to that. Anyone who serves the country honorably should be made a citizen, why stop at letting them vote?)

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:28 PM

That sounds fair to me, at the municipal level. More interesting would be the results of elections restricted to citizens of enemy countries. Who'd be president if Afganistanians voted on Republicans vs Democrats (candidates selected by their own party)?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 05:35 PM

Non-citizens are made citizens after a period of honorable service to the U.S.A.

If you aren't here as a citizen then I'd be opposed to them voting. Heck - the Demopublicans would import about 20,000,000 folks from outside the country to tip the election in their favor - and at our, the taxpayers, expense.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 10:27 PM

Well, I have a little history here in that I sold off my business to a kid from the Ukraine after taking him under my wing and teaching him the business. At the time of the sale I also had hired a Salvadorian...

My feeling is this. If someone is working here, paying taxes here and will make the efforts to learnt out history and become a citizen, then these folks ougtta be able to vote. But *all* of those conditions should be met.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:01 PM

The criteria for voting should continue to be citizenship, not taxes alone. The reason is that there are some criteria for good voting thathaving money and paying taxes just don't meet. Paying taxes does not make you infomred, orconscious of the issues, or give you any sense of the context into which you are voting. At least citizenship does a little of that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:05 PM

Nope....you must be a citizen....maybe a naturalised citizen...but a citizen nonetheless. I wouldn't expect to be able to vote in a foreign country if I was only living there on a permanent resident visa...no matter if I was paying their taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Apr 04 - 11:36 PM

Make it compulsory for citizens to vote. then you can discuss all this other nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:24 AM

There are a number of Canadians serving in the American Military. They join up, not because they have any particular abiding fealty to the US, but because they can earn more money and better perks, than they can garner from serving in the military in Canada. They are in effect mercenaries. You are welcome to have their vote, but if they vote in your country, they damned well shouldn't be entitled to vote here too.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:50 AM

Of course not!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:14 AM

When I left England, the military there did NOT have the vote. Their fealty is/was toward the Crown. All part of the checks and balances of the Westminster System.

I was allowed the vote here immediately as an official NZ resident, and of course, also still a subject o Queen Liz.

If I was American, I'd say no, citizens only. The taxes argument is a blind. You dont pay taxes to enable you to vote, you pax taxes so that you can live there and enjoy the protections that the state provides.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:29 AM

"Paying taxes does not make you informed, or conscious of the issues, or give you any sense of the context into which you are voting. At least citizenship does a little of that."

Really? So how come...

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:57 AM

No. Citizenship is any country, not just the US, confers voting rights.   Taxes pay for police protection, a water system, fire protection, a sewer system, a library, national defense, and the other essential services of a community or country. Everyone living in a country or a community shares these costs and benefits from them, citizen or not.

If I visit Ireland or England or Canada or Iceland, I don't forfeit clean water or a functioning sewer system or protection from an enemy attack because I'm not a citizen. Noncitizens residing in the US don't foreit these either. But by NOT being a citizen I may not be covered by the national health plan, either (and I hope I don't have to find out). All of these have to be paid for somehow, and what taxes I might pay while a visitor is cheap enough. If I chose to live there, however, I should either become a citizen and thereby have a voice in the nation's policies and enjoy FULL rights, or pay the taxes that fund the common services and stop complaining.

Citizenship isn't, or shouldn't be, something purchased with tax money. It should be more than that, a definite statement of commitment. I wonder how many native-born citizens of any country would opt for citizenship if they had to make an effort to obtain it?

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:13 AM

The reaction is really interesting (because it's surprising for me).

In Germany, nearly all the left voters (and not too few from the moderate right) are for the right of foreign citizens to vote in local elections if they live here for a considerable time.

If lets say a Turkish citizen works here since 20 years, she usually has more understanding of the issues of local politics here (which street to close, new busline or not, where do we need a playground) than in any Turkish town she still may have to right to vote for the local elections. The main idea just seems sensible to me, just the concrete conditions open to debate.

By the way, a similar idea has been introduced for a supernational election, namely to the European parliament. If you come from any country in the EU and work permanently in another you may vote there for the European parliament. Seems natural.

Just a question: If someone from lets say Hawaii moves to Maine, how long does she have to wait before being allowed to vote in Maine? And is there a test whether she has enough knowledge of the local issues?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

Whats the big deal? Non-citizens already vote! Just check the election results in California!

Mark

And in Illinois and Massachusetts, even the dead vote. None of this nonsense about giving up your rights just because you do not happen to be alive!

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

The sooner we get rid of this nonsense, where what matters is supposed to be where you come from rather than where you live and work, the better.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:35 AM

Get more than 12 % of people to vote in the US...   Then worry about who they are....

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM

Good thought, McGrath (let us apply that now to Israel/Palestine, sorry, wrong thread).

BTW, don't misunderstand, I'm totally serious here with the first three words.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM

Oh, I'd happily apply that to Israel/Palestine. With the added proviso that everyone has an inalienable right to go back where they come from, if they wish to do so.

As an Irish citizen, who has always therefore had the right to vote in all elections in the UK, maybe I have a different angle on this from some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:51 PM

Wolfgang:

Residency in a State (for voting purposes) simply requires one to show that one is living and paying utility bills or some other proof of having an address in a given town or county. And for those purposes, where the issues center around the logistics of the local community, I am incvlined to support the notion of residency being sufficient basis for voting.

But for national issues, I believe citizenship should be a requirement, opreferably educated citizenship.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Strick
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

"If lets say a Turkish citizen works here since 20 years, she usually has more understanding of the issues of local politics here (which street to close, new busline or not, where do we need a playground) than in any Turkish town she still may have to right to vote for the local elections. The main idea just seems sensible to me, just the concrete conditions open to debate."

But why in heaven's name would anyone live in Germany "temporarily" 20 years? Why not just admit you've migrated and become a citizen? Is this something special to Germany?

In the US immigrants are encouraged to gain citizenship, it's a great priviledge. If someone who had lived in this country for 20 years wanted to vote, I'd drive them to the post office and help them fill out the citizenship forms.

"Just a question: If someone from lets say Hawaii moves to Maine, how long does she have to wait before being allowed to vote in Maine? And is there a test whether she has enough knowledge of the local issues?"

No test, usually just the requirement that they live in the state a minimal period of time which varies from state to state and that they register to vote. The main problem is convincing someone who moves to another state to register since then they'll be expected to re-register their car which can be quite expensive, particularly if you move into California.

There is a huge difference, though. The people I'm talking about are alreadly US citizens. The differences between the various states were part of the impetous to abandon the Articles of Confederation and adopt a more uniform Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:50 PM

Many expats (including American ones) do not wish to give up their citizenships...which may be a requirement of becoming a citizen of that country, especially if things go sour they could always go back. For many people a permanent resident status is more than enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:55 PM

So on anything to do with issues like Civil Rights, which count as national issues, people who might be affected by that should have no say?

It not very logical in the UK. Any Irish citizen resident here can vote in all elections, local, national or European. All citizens of European Union nations resident here can vote in European elections, either here or in their country of origin, though not in both. The same applies for Commonwealth Citizens. And they can vote in local elections but not in the national elections, and that applies in all EU countries. (But not for Commonwealth Citizens living in other European countries generally.)

On the other hand in Belgium, for example, anyone legally resident
can vote in local elections.

I don't know what the rule is going to be for this referendum they've said they'll have in the UK on the European Constitution. No doubt the politicians will decide as a matter of principle to support whichever voting rules best suit the side they want to win...

I'm all for anyone legally living in any place having full voting rights in all elections. Can't really understand the logic of doing it any other way. If there are to be any kind of tests as to whether you are well informed enough to vote, they should apply to everyone - however in the light of the way those kind of tests have been misused by racists and so forth, I think they are a pretty suspect idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:17 PM

Strick, I believe in Germany you have to have been a resident for 15 years before you may apply to be a citizen by naturalization. I think the Green Party has been advocating for a shorter 8 year period.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:00 PM

The UK requires five years here legally, with at least one year living here as a permanent resident, before someone can apply for naturalisation. And a sufficient knowledge of English, Welsh or Scottish Gaelic.

One point - every now and again people start rabbiting on about how British people are subjects and not citizens, and making out that's highly significant; in fact when people are naturalisaed, they are specifically naturalised as British citizens, which is actually what all the natives are anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Gypsy
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:19 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm........sometimes i question if CITIZENS should be allowed to vote. ( i live in California, can ya tell?) This is a good question, to which i have no answer

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:36 PM

I lived on an island of 350 residents and the only people who were allowed to vote on local issues were the landowners. That was pretty sad. It was finally changed. This was in Canada. Just goes to show that people will get away with just about anything until they are stopped.

I have questions to add. Do you think if I am a citizen of more than one country I should have a vote in each country? What if I am a citizen of one country and reside in another, should I have two votes?

Seems to me that one person should have one vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:24 AM

But why in heaven's name would anyone live in Germany "temporarily" 20 years? Why not just admit you've migrated and become a citizen? Is this something special to Germany? (Strick)

That has several reasons, some of them special for Germany. I name some:

(1) One of our heritages from the longest twelve years of our history is the idea that 'blood' (of course, we now use a word that is more decent: descent) and not belonging to our culture determines who is German. So we get lots of immigrants from Russia or other countries in East Europe who immediately get a passport for one their great-grandmothers was German. They do not even speak German. A young Turk, who hays been born in Germany, knows Turkey only from holidays, speaks fluently German, a bit of English, and can say goodbye and hello in Turkish, that's a different problem. You see, no German blood...Bottom line: Immigration is really difficult for people without German descent.

(2) Germany for a long time has not acknowledged double nationalities. So many people who didn't want to lose the old nationality (close relations still living there) and those who couldn't (there are countries that never let a person give up the birth nationality) were not allowed to become Germans (including their children born here!).

(3) In some countries you lose rights (one instance: to inherit something) when you get another nationality. For these people becoming German would mean a loss of a lot of money.

(4) Germany has the draft and only drafts Germans. Why should you want to become German unless you are above drafting age?

Some good and a lot of bad reasons contribute to the situation in Germany.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Should Non-citizens Be Allowed to Vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:29 AM

The Irish rules specifically say that an Irish citizen can be a citizen of another country as well.