Origin of Morris Dancing

Subject: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:01 AM

Ok it's Saturday morning and we are of to see the fine women of Chorlton Green Morris dance on Chorlton Green.

Simple question, no mucking about......

Did any of the dancers of the late 19C early 20C claim pagan, pre-christian, fertility or related stuff? Or were they just dancing and that stuff was added by Folk Society people?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:17 AM

I've seen a couple of very early photo's of morris men and mummers, and judging from the expressions, they weren't doing it for fun.
Maybe some-one had put a curse on them.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:27 AM

Good point but is this thread drift already? Perhaps the very presence of the photographer changed the purpose of the occasion?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Jean Phillips
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:07 AM

Here's some Morris origins info. Hope it helps.


Origins of Morris dance:
Three origin theories have been proffered:

1. It is derived from pre-Christian "fertility" dancers. A late 19th century theory based on a rationalization of the dance form (comparative studies of ritual and myth by the likes of Sir James Frazer and supported by Mary Neal, Cecil Sharp, and D'Arcy Ferris). (e.g. Handkerchief ward off evil, high jumps make crops grow, etc.).

2. It derives from Spain or the "Moors", hence Morisco or Moorish dancing. A theory dating to at least 1730 or earlier, but no evidence to support this, it seems to be just be a link in names.

3. It is from France or Flanders and was introduced during the reign of Edward III (1327-1377) or Henry V or VI, when many English lords and soldiers were in those countries. The first reference to this idea is in the mid 1800s.

Read more here: http://www.kichu.com/kemp/morris.html

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:15 AM

Thanks Jean that's quite concise.

Any record anywhere from the dancers as to what they were up to?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: BanjoRay
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 06:47 AM

Gurney was right - someone had put a curse on them. It's still there.
(either that or pewter poisoning)
Ray

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Fiolar
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:50 AM

In addition to Jean's posting I found the following in "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable". "...A dance, popular in England in the 15th century and later, in which the dancers often represented characters from the stories of Robin Hood and Maid Marian. Other stock characters were Bavian the fool, Malkin the clown, the Hobby horse or a Dragon and foreigners, probably Moors or Moriscos. It was commonly part of the May games and other pageants and festivals and the dancers were adorned with bells."

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:22 AM

Recently I was reading a book about England in Elizabethan times which included a 16th century painting of a Tudor palace with costumed dancers in the forground. One of the dancers was wearing a skirted horse costume & I can't remember what the others were wearing. I could try to get the book from the library again

There's probably a technical Morris term for the costume/dancer & I await information from a Morris dancing Mudcatter cos I know nuffin' about Morris dancing.

sandra

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM

Dictionary definitions are nice, but he wants it from the horse's mouth... ;-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 02:02 PM

Mmmmmmm ! I is reminded about the "Estedffordd" (SP) revival of the 1870's.

My Ladies Bute and Tredegar (Wives of Coal Owners) playing at Welsh Culture.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM

I like the pewter-poisoning/curse theory(!), but if you're really interested, check out "The History of Morris Dancing, 1458-1750", by John Forrest. This is a highly interesting & exhaustive scholarly look at this most fun & endearing (really!) of cultural customs.

D.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

See also Mike Heaney's Morris Dancing bibliography at EFDSS:

http://www.efdss.org/morrisbib.htm

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM

The closest we have in America, from a cultural
standpoint, is Square Dancing. Square Dancing is
closely tied in with folk music as well.

In Square Dancing, four mixed couples take part,
or any number of such groups, and a "caller"
sings out the steps they are to take.

Square Dancing originated with English or Scottish
country-dancing, and is popular throughout the U.S.A.

I have thought Morris Dancing was for Men Only,
but I suppose nowadays the ladies take a turn.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

At any rate, it seems like a good opportunity
for drinking beer.

Love, Johnny

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:02 AM

We always did ' Ford Cortina ' dancing when ah were a lad.
eric

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:43 AM

Dictionary definitions are nice, but he wants it from the horse's mouth... ;-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Thanks Becky.

Does any record exist of what the dancers and muscians of Bampton and Heddington Quarry thought was the origin and purpose of the dancing?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:38 AM

They reckoned they did it for the money.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:45 PM

Yes, out on the new year because they were hard up. Did Sharp and his palls tell they were really fertility dances? And if so what did they say?

Saw some excellent Northwest yesterday from Chorlton Green, Ringhey, Fylde, Newbrough and Poynton Jemmers and some really exciting Border from Powder Keg (Whalley Bridge). Northwest seems to have something of simple working class celebration in the face of the hard life of mills and mines at laest in its 19C history.

How old is the oldest Northwets?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:57 PM

And, Johnny, there's plenty morrising here in the US!

Allison

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: mouldy
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:52 AM

I've just acquired a print of about 1858 - "Morris Dancers at Crystal Palace" - which is showing mixed couples. The girls are dressed in shorter versions of the normal crinoline type skirt, and the men are quite becoming in open necked shirts with a knotted hanky round the neck, straw hats and knee-breeches. They each carry a slim beribboned stick in one hand. The music is provided by a military brass band. Is this a version of NW morris? It's from the Illustrated London News, I think.

I have also seen a report from the 1850s of morris dancers from Nottinghamshire - both male and female - coming to dance in Doncaster.

I personally believe that the late 19th century style of NW morris was a development of an earlier form, adapted over time to fit with the new urban lifestyle of the dancers. These brought a tradition of ritual dance with them when they moved from the countryside for a "better" life. You can't tell me that there was no tradition of ritual dance in the North West before the industrial revolution! I have always presumed the garland dances are a vestige of the rural tradition of May garlands.

Are there any unique NW dances still surviving that are particular to rural villages, rather than through absorbtion into the industrial areas?

Andrea

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:14 AM

"I've seen a couple of very early photo's of morris men and mummers, and judging from the expressions, they weren't doing it for fun.
"

You wouldn't be laughing either if you had to stand there for hours due to the exposure times of early photography!

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,T-boy
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:04 AM

I reckon Jean Phillips' second theory is closest. It was a royal court fashion in the 16th Century to dance 'al morisco', i.e. in the moorish style. No-one pretends it was meant to be an exact or even close replica of Moorish dancing, whatever that was. Just having drums, whistles and bells was probably enough.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:09 PM

Some interesting points from mouldy.

I think I raised this ages ago but when did iron shod clogs appear? They seem to be at the heart of Northwest. Are they another product of the Industrial Revolution?

I seem to remember some research about the spread of Morris across the northwest being clearly related to railways. The Dances of (Crew?) traveling to villages across Cheshire and Lancashire to dance at events. This sometimes being followed by the appearance of new sides in those railway towns and villages. I think Southport Swords researched the appearance of clog morris in Southport.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:59 PM

Well all that may be true but mine was a Minor and it would not dance except on a ploughed field. I think the term comes from the day Maurice got p***d and danced on the flower pots in the beer garden but what would I know about it.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM

Sorry I have drifted off into origins of Northwest when what I asked originally (sorry) was did any 19C dancers (as opposed to collectors) think they were involved in ancient and or fertility rites?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

I suspect not Les - like many morris men today they were probably just having a day out with alcohol!

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:57 PM

Fair enoughski Mrs Duck.

So who put all that stuff about sex about, so to speak?

Gruff women and men of the Northwest may do stuff in vests but they don't mention it in a morris connection.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:00 PM

>From: Animaterra - PM
>And, Johnny, there's plenty morrising here in the US!
>Allison

Allison, this is the first I've heard of it.
Where do they dance? I'd like to see it!

Love, Johnny

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:01 PM

them dirty minded collectors

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: pavane
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM

There are many references in Shakespeare to the elements of Morris dance, e.g. 'The fool and his ladle', indicating that the 16th century origin is probably not true. It was already so well known when he was writing that he didn't need to explain the facts.
Also, I believe there is at least one 15th Century reference.

The Morisco theory was abandoned long ago.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:49 PM

Ok, I'm fit for fools with ladles, so to speak, and I really want morris to be dead old, and spare me the car jokes, but is their any evidence from 19C dancers thought they they were involved in anything other than ................ well dancing about, being blokes and collecting ale money?

This doesn't stop the origins from being all kinds of weird stuff but what does it say about current dance sides?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:14 PM

In the 80s was in the Silurian Morris Dancers of Ledbury Herefordshire. There I learned that the main purpose of Morris Dancing is to get a lot of free beer. For if you dance at a pub the landlord traditionally stands you a round of best. Unfortunately that didn't help my dancing. The lads said 'Just have another one Dave and you'll get it right'; but they'd hottle-back and I'd hottle-forward. So they eventually gave up on me and put me in the Yeckle: the fool in costume who prances around and collects donations. But the hard work of all that drinking was so exhausting that in fact I had to retire after a few enjoyable years.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: davidkiddnet
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 07:17 PM

I believe that the "Moorish" style of line-dancing came back with the troops from the Crusades. In fact I once saw a movie set in Arabia and off to one side you saw two lines af Arabs doing a Morris dance that I recognised. Whether the producer put them in as historicaly correct or whether he just wanted some more beer I don't know.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Johnny in OKC
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:18 PM

So now, have they got Morris dancing in Australia?
What about India?

Love, Johnny

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

Les in Chorlton

While you were watching Jemmers etc last Saturday, I was watching KR 1-3 (Flowers of May, Whitethorn and Benskins) in Aylesbury, and remembering watching Jemmers dance there in 1974. I think Ann Mettam still has the postcard she got from Julian Pilling when she was researching dances for Poynton Jemmers and (somewhat naively, given that this was about 30 years ago)thought he might help. The postcard said something on the lines of "I do not believe that women should emulate men in either education or morris dancing". This was such a great incentive for Jemmers that they were booked to dance at Sidmouth the following year!

John Forrest has been invited to stage a presentation recreating early morris dancing at Sidmouth festival this (50th celebration)year. As far as I know, this is going ahead.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM

There are explicit references to payment being made to morris dancers for Whitsun & other holiday activities in the late 1400s. By Shakespeare's time it was already considered a somewhat quaint (and I don't mean in the Middle English sense!) custom...he has the Dauphin in "Henry V" note that the French should pay no more attention to the English king's preparations for war than they would to the English preparing for "a Whitsun morris dance". And of course there's the Shakespearean clown, Will Kempe, & his famous "Nine Daies Wonder", in which he danced all the way from London to Norwich (or was it the other way round...?), wearing his bells & garters, & accompanied by a fellow playing pipe & tabour.

D.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: IanC
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:59 AM

I seem to recall a recent EFDSS journal report to the effect that an early reference (?1430s) to Morris Dancing had been shown to be a valid reference to payment for a dance by cross referencing 2 documents. This would take it back 50 years or so from the previous earliest verified record ...

... getting earlier!!!

:-)

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Morris-ey
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 05:00 AM

To answer the original question, I don't believe the dancers that Sharp collected from claimed any pagan origin for the morris. They did it to get beer money - just like today. The pagan/fertility bit is a fairly recent invention to blag the punters - oh, and the we're collecting for charidee scam.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:45 AM

Johnny in OKC, they certainly do have Morris Dancing in Australia. Here is the website of my favourite bunch, the Sydney Morris Men:

The Sydney Morris Men I plan to be at their dawn Mayday celebration on Saturday morning. We start off in the Botanic Gardens at Mrs Macquarie's Chair, and work our way round to The Rocks where we have breakfast at the Lord Nelson pub, followed by more dancing, more drinking and more pubs. This can go on all day.

Some of the musicians in this group form one of my favourite bands, the famous Wheeze and Suck Band They play at my folk club on a fairly regular basis, and are lovely people and good friends.

Jenny

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: JennyO
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:50 AM

I forgot to mention - if you look at the links on these websites, you will notice there is a link to the Mudcat Cafe - like I said, lovely people!

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Green Man
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:40 AM

I have an old print of a Mouresca danced in spain where one line of dancers is dressed in white tabards with crosses and the other line is dressed as moors.

It was a stick dance and the music was all percussion. Not a malodorous odeon in sight.

Dancing in the street outside a Crusader chapel...

Probably got nothing to do with Morris dancing..

GM

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:54 PM

Thanks Kitty, Julian Pilling has maded some interesting comments perhaps tongue in cheek, perhaps just stupid.

I guess Preston Royal (was that his side?) were carrying on a tradition just as much as the women of the Northwest. I remember a couple of quotes from his letters to ED & S, that one of the commonest aspects of morris was revival and that it is largely an urban event in that most morris sides were from small towns with an industrial base rather than tiny agricultural villages. The logic is clear - only places of a certain size could generate enough dancers and then provide enough audience to provide beer money. This seems particularly true in the Northwest.

I danced with Gorton Morrismen some years ago and the feeling I got was of a celebration of working class life. I think that is clearly associated with the times during and after the Industrial Revolution. What ever the origins of Northwest may have been it really grew out of the social life, such that it was, of working people in those small poor industrial towns based on mills and mining.

Morris Dancing isn't much like Country (Social) dancing. When it is it doesn't really work. It is dramatic, all that banging, ringing and stick whirling even better with a big mixed band. Jemmers had a sax last saturday and all manner of things.

For drama Gorton were as good as it gets. 8 men on the pavement between a pub and a chippy, in the dark and rain in November in Openshaw. 3 melodeons, 2 drums, banjos and Ash Latham in full cry. Scared the daylights out of the locals.

Who needs to claim a link with the pre-christian or fertility rites?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 06:47 PM

Really only the people who have trouble accepting women doing it, I suspect. Julian Pilling has done some very good research in the past, but he can't seem to get over the "men only" syndrome, which is a pity.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 07:22 PM

On reflection, it was me and Ann Mettam (then Franklin) watching Herga dancing Cotswold in Aylesbury in 1974 - Jemmers danced there on a tour with Herga later. Julian Pilling danced with Colne Royal.

To state the bleeding obvious, women dancing look different from men dancing. North West seems to have had a tradition of men's sides, women's sides and children's sides, but there are some movements in Cotswold that look as if they were intended to be performed by men rather than women...

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 05:07 AM

IMHO, some Morris dances do look better when done by people wearing skirts, while others look better when done by people wearing trousers. The anatomy underneath (in this context, though not in some others of course) is of secondary importance.

On this topic, William Kimber is on record as saying (to the Morris Ring around 1950) something like this: "why shouldn't they dance ... some of 'em dances a darn sight tidier than half of you do." I'm quoting from memory, but it's in Derek Schofield's booklet with the "Absolutely Classic" CD.

And if it's all right with William, it's all right with me.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Michelle
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 06:06 AM

I hope it is OK to do this - I am writing an essay so can I ask a question that hopefully someone will know the answer to.......... what is the origins of morris dancers using handkercheifs??? Do you know why they use them?

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM

MikeofN

No, I think it is the anatomy, not the clothing - possibly to do with how weight is distributed around the body rather than gender. There is a difference between men's dancing and boys' dancing, for example. And although I danced North West for years I never considered dancing Cotswold, because even in trousers it wouldn't have looked right for someone of my build....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:42 AM

Michelle - I was always told it was to 'bring down good luck'. Likewise, the bells are to 'scare away evil spirits'. In my opinion a good dancer does not throw their handkercheif up/out, but casts it out and pulls it back again. I hope your essay goes well.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:37 AM

Michelle,

I don't buy the bringing down good luck theory regarding hankies.

I am of the opinion that hankies emphasise the hand movements better than just hands!

But others WILL disagree.

Steve

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: Fiona
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:04 AM

I don't know how relevant it is to the origins but I've seen Morris Dancers in Lancashire 'beating the bounds' of the parish, they weren't especially dressed up just big hulking farmers with waistcoats and hats with flowers.

As far as I know in ancient times this 'beating the bounds' was to drive out evil spirits. They used bundles of birch or willow twigs as these were supposed to have cleansing properties. I know it's been appropriated by the church in some places but I think it's an older custom than Christianity.

Subject: RE: Origin of Morris Dancing
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:29 PM

In the late 16th C, proto-Puritans ("if I thought that, I'd beat him like a dog!") were referring to customs like morris dances & Whitsub ales & similar as "heathenish"; by the 18th C many people had the idea that these quaint old-fashioned practices were somehow based in pagan fertility rites or similar, but there really isn't anything concrete to support this idea. Personally, I prefer the beer money explanation!

I'll be dancing in the May in Cambridge, MA at 5am tomorrow; should probably be in bed already!

D.