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Subject: Origins: Martin Said to his Man/Who's the Fool Now From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:59 AM Traditional Ballad Index listing: Martin Said To His ManDESCRIPTION: The singer says s/he saw various animals performing various activities, some of which are impossible or unlikely (E.g. "Saw a crow flying low"; "Saw a mule teachin' school"). In some versions, the narrator(s) are drunk, competing to tell the tallest tale.AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1609 (Deuteromelia; registered as a ballad 1588) KEYWORDS: contest drink lullaby nonballad nonsense paradox talltale animal bug FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So) Britain(England,Scotland(Aber)) REFERENCES (19 citations): Kinloch-TheBalladBook XIV, pp. 50-54, "The Man in the Moon" (1 text) Greig/Duncan8 1703, "I Saw a Sparrow" (1 text plus a single verse on p. 401, 1 tune) Porter/Gower-Jeannie-Robertson-EmergentSingerTransformativeVoice #10, pp. 125-126, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (1 text, 1 tune) Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople 109, "Well Done Liar" (1 text) Randolph 445, "Johnny Fool" (2 texts) Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 text) Brown/Schinhan-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore5 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 tune plus a text excerpt) Hudson-FolksongsOfMississippi 128, p. 274, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text) Hudson-FolkTunesFromMississippi 41, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text, 1 tune) Wyman/Brockway-LonesomeSongs-KentuckyMountains-Vol1, p. 22, "The Bed-time Song" (1 text, 1 tune) Wolfe/Boswell-FolkSongsOfMiddleTennessee 78, pp. 126-128, "Johnny Fool" (1 text, 1 tune) Bush-FSofCentralWestVirginiaVol4, p. 27, "Blind Johnny Boo" (1 short text, 1 tune) Grimes-StoriesFromTheAnneGrimesCollection, p. 62, "The Liar's Song" (1 text, tune) Sulzer-TwentyFiveKentuckyFolkBallads, p. 22, "Nonsense Song No. 1" (1 short text, 1 tune, with a verse from this song although the rest might be anything) Richardson/Spaeth-AmericanMountainSongs, p. 97, "Hurrah, Lie" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-FolkSongsOfNorthAmerica 136, "Hurrah, Lie!" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell-PopularMusicOfTheOldenTime, p. 76, "Who's the Fool Now" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell/Wooldridge-OldEnglishPopularMusic I, p. 140, "Martin Said to His Man" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, HURRALIE* WHOSFOOL* Roud #473 RECORDINGS: Martha Hall, "Kitty Alone" (on MMOK, MMOKCD) Lizzie Higgins, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (on LHiggins01) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Gossip Joan (Neighbor Jones)" (theme) ALTERNATE TITLES: Old Blind Drunk John Fooba-Wooba John NOTES [616 words]: Referred to in Dryden's 1668 play "Sir Martin Mar-all, or the Feign'd Innocence" (act IV). It seems to have been very popular in the century prior to that. Hyder E. Rollins, An Analytical Index to the Ballad-Entries (1557-1709) In the Register of the Company of Stationers of London, 1924 (I use the 1967 Tradition Press reprint with a new Foreword by Leslie Shepard), p. 146, #1681, gives the Stationer's Register entry for this as "Martyn said to his man, who is the foole now," printed November 9, 1588 by Thomas Orwin. Rollins notes, in addition to Dryden's citation, that the title is used in Anthony Brewer's "Love-Sick King," Act III, and that someone named Collier in Notes & Queries, second series, XII, 143, connected this with someone by the name of Martin Skinck. The American versions can generally be told by their narrative pattern, "(I) saw a () (doing something)," e.g. "Saw a crow flying low," "Saw a mule teaching school," "Saw a louse chase a mouse," "Saw a flea wade the sea." The versions under the title "Kitty Alone" are sometimes a mix of this and "Frog Went A-Courting"; the first such text seems to have been in Gammer Gurton's Garland (1784), which has clearly a "Frog" plot but the form (and some of the exaggerations) of this piece. I'm sure there are some who have argued that the ancient English "Martin Said To His Man" is not the same as the modern American texts. But there is continuity of verses, believe it or not, and the theme never changes. And there is no way to draw a dividing line. There is a similar if not identical song that is even older than the "Martin" versions, which I was sorely tempted to lump with this. In the famous Richard Hill manuscript (Oxford, MS. Balliol College 354; see "MSRichardHill" in the Bibliography), folio 54 contains this lyric I sawe a stokfysshe drawynge a harow, and a-noder dryveng a barow, and a saltfysshe shoteyng an arow, I will have þe whetstone, and I may. It ends with this lyric: I sawe an ege etying a pye; Geve me drynke, my mowth ys drye; Yet ys not long syth I made a lye I will have þe whetstone, and I may. I.e. I saw an egg eating a [mag]pie. Give me drink, my mouth is dry, Yet [it] is not long since I made a lie, I will have the whetstone, and I may. References for this is song include: - Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, #471, p. 317, "(I saw a doge sethyng sowse)" (1 text) - Roman Dyboski, Songs Carols, and Other Miscellaneous Poems from the Balliol Ms. 354, Richard Hill's Commonplace Book, 1908 (I use a [crummy] Forgotten Books print-on-demand copy made in 2016), #92, p. 110 - Brown/Robbins-IndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse, #1350 DigitalIndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse #256 There is a discussion in David R. Parker, The Commonplace Book in Tudor London: An Examination of BL MSS Egerton 1995, Harley 2252, Lansdowne 762, and Oxford Balliol College MS354, University Press of America, 1998, p. 82. Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, p. 453, explains the chorus line about the whetstone by saying that it was the custom in the Middle Ages to tie a whetstone about the neck of a convicted liar when he was in pillory. Thus "I will have the whetstone, and I may" implies "I will earn the whetstone for telling the biggest lie." - RBW Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople throws a bawdy light on some verses. For "I saw a wren kill a man" it cites Partridge's A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Slang to make "wren" "a harlot frequenting Curragh Camp, military 1869" [did the Women's Royal Naval Service -- Wrens -- of the World Wars escape this slang?]. For "I saw a maid milk a bull Every stroke a bucket full," "one of the meanings of 'milk' in the same source is 'cause sexual ejaculation'." - BS Last updated in version 6.2 File: WB022 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2023 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN (DT Lyrics) Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now I saw the man in the moon, fie, man, fie I saw the man in the moon, who's the fool, now I saw the man in the moon, Clouting of St. Peter's shoon Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, fie, man, fie I saw the goose ring the hog, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, saw the snail bite the dog Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, fie, man, fie I saw the hare chase the hound, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, Twenty miles above the ground Thou hast well drunken, mn, who's the fool, now I saw the mouse chase the cat, fie, man, fie I saw the mouse chase the cat, who's the fool now I saw the mouse chase the cat, Saw the cheese eat the rat Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, fie, man, fie I saw a flea heave a tree, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, twenty miles out to sea Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, fie, man, fie I saw a maid milk a bull, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, at every pull a bucket full Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now Printed in Popular Music of the Olden Time, Chappelle Licensed in 1588 to Thomas Orwin. The Scots sing Wha's Fu' Noo; Seems like a reasonable predecessor, but reason leads folklorists aft agley. RG @drink @animal @plant @talltale filename[ WHOSFOOL TUNE FILE: WHOSFOOL CLICK TO PLAY sung by John and Tony on Spencer the Rover and by Hart and Prior on Old England SOF
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Subject: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM Fye, man fye Martin said to his man Who's the fool now? What's that all about then? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:42 AM Fill thou the cup and I the can Seems to be a blokish thing about who gets to drink the most. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Morticia Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM Kendall here. I believe it's a drunken lie contest among a group of soldiers. A sort of, "Can you top this" |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM All good stuff. Is it dead old and full of strange meaning: I saw thw man in the moon clouting off St Peter's shoon or is it just Victorian ramblings? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:37 AM I used to sing it years ago with Don Bonito. Didn't worry about deep significance, just treated it as a standard drinking chorus song that was handy to get the audience joining in. It's just a list of impossible things you might imagine you'd see when you've had a few. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM Ah yes. Must have been where I first heard it, upstairs in the Enterprise, Chalk Farm. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,MCP Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM See also Wha's Fu' in Digitrad, that (=who's had enough to drink) being a possible origin for who's the fool. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Charley Noble Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:39 AM And there are more revelations to come that we should endeavor to put into verse. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lanfranc Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM I learned it originally from Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, but, coincidentally, I also used to sing it with Dom Bonito when we ran Saffron Walden FC together back in the 80s and early 90s. Haven't heard it sung for ages - perhaps I'll essay a revival! Never bothered to analyse it, just regarded it as a fun singalong. Alan |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM Where is Don Bonito? Is he still singing? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: alanabit Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM I recall Stillwood of Reading doing it unaccompanied in the seventies. I remember one of them said that Tim Hart and Maddy Prior used to sing it together. Who knows more? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM That was after Don & I sang together Lanfranc. Countess, I last saw Don about 4 (?) years back at the Cellar Upstairs 25th birthday party. Well it was 25 years since Sheila started running the club anyway. He and I sang together again then having been old Cellar residents as well as the Enterprise. Come to think of it, maybe it was the 30th birthday party. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:44 AM Just noticed that Lanfranc used Dom, whereas I used Don, for our old singing colleague. It's true that Dominic was his proper name but tended to call himself Don when I sang with him, maybe it sounded more "godfatherish" he being of Irish/Italian extraction :-). I guess he must have started using Dom later. He was still living in Saffron Walden recently. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM Wonder if he'll come down the M11 to Moreton Village Festival then? June 11 - 13, everybody! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:59 AM It's allegedly an old Scottish song that the English stole, stuffed up the words, and now claim that it doesn't make any sense! The English thus claim that the song is about stupid fools. The alleged original had as a chorus "Who's fu' the noo?" - literally "Who's full now?" meaning "Who's drunk now?" The English botched it to "Who's the fool now?". When you look at this, the things traditionally sung as being seen are those a drunk traditionally sees, not a fool. Of course, a drunk may be a fool too, I suppose... Robin |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM It's quite old as these things go, and was licensed to the publisher Thomas Orwin in 1588, though no broadside copies survive. It appeared in Thomas Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia (1609): Freemens songs of 4 Voices. ...and in various publications during the 17th century. A different tune, with the "wha's fu' now" refrain, appeared in Henry Playford's Original Scotch Tunes (1701); this seems to be the earliest version we have from Scotland, where it also appears in a number of guises. Ann Gilchrist (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, IV (3) 1942, 118-121) quotes examples from England and Scotland, and remarks on "...a confusion between 'fool' and 'full' (fou'=drunk) on one side or other of the Border", but draws no conclusions as to any "national" origin for the song and its relatives, pointing instead to the occurrence of similar songs and themes throughout Britain and Ireland, in most of the languages spoken here. |
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Subject: RE: Tim Hart and Maddy Prior From: MickyMan Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM Yes, Tim Hart and Maddy Prior definately used to sing it together on their immortal "Folk Songs Of Old England" recording (I think that was the name). This is an absolutely wonderful recording. Simply done with beautiful harmony singing. Before all of their rock influenced stuff. Is it available on CD? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM I'm led to believe that Martin's 'man' is in fact his master. Martin being the servant and taking the piss once his man has had a few too many. Can't remember where I heard that though... I saw a maid milk a bull every stroke a bucket full... Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: yrlancslad Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM I've been singing it so long I can't remember where I got it from, maybe Hart & Prior way back when. I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant). I saw a maid milk a bull Every SQUIRT a bucketfull..... is the way I have it, much more sugestive |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM I just want you to know I never said this to any man. First of all, Chicagoans never say the word "fye" "Fry" yes. I have said that many times as they go quite well with a hot dog. I would not ever even consider saying "fye" to a woman, either. Thank you for reading this. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:04 PM Montreal (specifically the Province of Quebec) makes the best fries. (Martin don't you even THINK of startin'. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lighter Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:20 PM Both volumes of Hart & Prior's "Folk Songs of Olde England" plus the equally great "Summer Solstice" are all currently available on ONE CD from the UK. A Google search should turn it up. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM Hey Brucie Do they make fresh cut fries (not the frozen variety) that are not at all greasy and are a little crunch at the ends? These are the best I have found. Also a Chicago phenomenon is cheese fries, where auality hot melted cheddar, usually like the spreadable kind that comes in a plastic tub is pured over the fresh cut fries. Cheese fries, done right are divine. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Melani Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:19 AM We sing it at Ren faires. Elizabethans thought really silly, impossible stuff was funny (especially when drunk). |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM Hey, Martin. The fries I mean usually come from small stands by the sides of highways in Quebec. The stands are called 'casse croutes' (sp?) and they are cut from potatoes like right there (or at least within the past hour. They are deep fried to a medium-dark brown and served with salt and vinegar. Ambrosia, sheer and utter. (That is not steer and udder.) Sometime in the future, you and I will have to get loose in Chicago AND Montreal to do the taste tests. However, it's beginning to seem to me that Chicago dogs would go very well with Quebec fries, and steamies with Chicago fries. Man, I am getting hungry. Later, buddy. Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:57 AM They are NOT fries, they are called CHIPS and only we English know how to make them properly. eric |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM Thank you Malcolm, most helpful. How do you feel about what Jinky Wells and friends thought they were upto dancing them starnge dances? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:53 AM I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant). Whilst this seems a reasonable interpretation DtG's posting above with it the other way round seems more likely to me, now that I read and think about it. On reflection in another use of the word "Man', in Lou Reed's "Waiting for The Man", it's obvious who the "boss" in that relationship is. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM Fries are not chips. Potato chips are chips. If frys are chips, what are chips? Start getting used to calling it fish and frys. Chips come in a bag. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Micca Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM what Americans call "Chips" are actually Crisps!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM One people divided by a common language. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM No, potato crisps are not potato chips. The product called Pringles are potatoe crisps. Pringles originally tried to pawn themselves off as potatoe chips, which are described by The Potato Chip Institute (yes, there is such a thing and it is a powerful organization that regulates quality in snack food) as slices of potato cooked in oil. Potato crisps are potatos, mashed and then machine formed and then cooked in oil. Every potato crisp is the same size and shape. The Potatoe Chip institue actually made Pringles change the name of their product. Case closed. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: YorkshireYankee Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM Case closed indeed, Martin... as long as you don't find yourself in England. I can guarantee you that if you come over here and ask for "chips", you will *not* get a bag containing very thin slices of potato cooked in oil -- regardless of what The Potato chip Institute has decreed. Also... if you ask for "egg roll", you will get... a fried egg -- placed between two halves of a bread roll! Cheers, YY who has been there, done that & decided *not* to get the tee-shirt |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM I'm bot planning on going. I'll just stay here where 250 million people know how to talk English. And an egg roll can be followed by some kung pao chicken. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM If you go to Poland 'chipsis' will get you crisps and if you want what we English call chips you ask for 'fritkis'. Don't know why I told you that. Anyway, as we invented them, we can call them what we like - as can Americans, even though they are wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Walrus Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM GUEST (04:08) You're Belgian? Ducking and running very very fast. Walrus By the bye, to make the best chips (yes real British chips, not those anaemic monstrosities made from re-processed dehydrated potato substitute that get sold as 'fries'), the freshly cut potato should be soaked in clean running water for about an hour (or two to three hours in still water changed frequently). |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM Walrus, that is too much time, money and equipment to expend in making something that's not even good for people. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM Real chips are double fried. The first deep frying seals the outside. They are then cooled, then the second deep frying cause the moisture to expand, giving you a crisp outer, with a moist soft delicous centre. The double frying also ensure that the temperature of teh oil does not drop, but is kept very high. Real chips are deep fried in Lard. If it is done right, very litle fat is absorbed, because firstly the high fat temperature seals the outside in the first deep frying too rapidly for the fat to be absorbed. The chips are then removed, allowing the fat to regain high temperature. The chips can then be kept for some hours, nowadays they even deep freeze them. The second frying, especially if they are deep frozen, produces magic light brown chips. There are slight modifications for chunky, normal and straw chips. Oven Bake chips are a different game. The right type of potato is essential too - the big fast food chains have actually spent heaps of money to get the right sort of potato. Robin (A Foodie!) |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Masterson Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:21 AM Desperately trying to get thread back on course.......... It was very popular with Hartley Morris sessions back in the 70's. One extra verse added was: "I saw a snail drive a nail, faster than the British Rail." No change there then! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: s&r Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM still on thread: we always sang "every pull a bucket full" with a nice internal rhyme. Off thread my dictionary says that American is the English spoken in America. What are kettle chips??? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: s&r Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM still creeping - this is in another thread vive le difference stu |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Gurney Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:59 AM Back to the thread. It isn't fye, it is fie. Like many old words in English, this has several meanings. (1) True. (ie True, man, true) (2) Predestined. (3) A fairy. Don't quote me if you intend to sing this meaning in an UK pub. (4) A facetious exclamation of disapproval (ie Crap, man, crap) The Dict. of Archaic Words (1-2-3) and Collins (4) I've always understood that I'm singing (4) but after a few pints (1) also works. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: pavane Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:06 AM Thread Uncreep: The Dransfields - Rout of the Blues, 1970, I think |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:26 AM Yep. But Robin and Barry recorded it as 'Who's the Fool Now?' |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM I like the verse: I saw the Ale drink the Man . . . . . . . . by the bucket and the can. But I object to the verse that Hartley Morris used to sing that started: I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . . |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Masterson Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:59 AM Come on Dave, cough up... what was the second line! (If anyone want to pm me, I'll tell them! tee-hee...) |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:23 AM French Fies? Then there is kettle cooked chips, my favorite, like those Cape Cod ones. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Pied Piper Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:43 AM Maris Piper makes the best Chips with the double frying technique above. This variety was developed in the UK were we cook things rather than pulverise extrude and process in the cheapest oil to keep 100 million Americans morbidly obese. PP |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM OK - I suppse that I'm thick-skinned enough. I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . . . . . It was too bloody loud and too bloody long ! Mind you, in some ways that's out of kilter with the other verses which are all about unlikely things - it's never been difficult getting me to sing ! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM Actually Pied Piper, it is allegedly a (French) Chef who was trying to cook potatoes for his Lord & Master. He boiled them, but due to some misunderstanding in the kitchen, they were well underdone and cold, and it was almost time to serve, but long enough for them to finish, so he cut them up, and deep fried them, then presented them as a special dish, the great ceremony allowing the extra few minutes to prepare them. Another good story is that a 19C Chinese gentleman got on the wrong boat, and ended up in England instead of the USA. He made a living by using his wok to deep fry small fillets of fish and sliced potatoes (both were cheap for him to buy!) and selling them in the street, thus was born the great English craze. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:12 AM I've always wondered who the brilliant person was who composed this verse: I saw a butterfly flutter by... Saw a dragonfly drink a flagon dry... We learned it from Chez Watts of Bristol. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Schantieman Date: 26 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM Since potato chips are pieces of potato cut into cuboids and deep fried, kettle chips must be pieces of kettle.... I'll get my coat S |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:13 PM In an attempt to re-join the split topics: I saw a spud fry the oil - fie man, fie. I saw a spud fry the oil - who's the fool now. I saw a spud fry the oil - before it was pulled from the soil. Thou hast well drunken man - who's the fool now. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM I guess it's the kind of song you can verses to forever. I don't know about the rest of you but enough has been said about chips te al. Thanks again |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:28 PM Let the chips fall where they may. And back to my musical origins question: "I've always wondered who the brilliant person was who composed this verse: I saw a butterfly flutter by... Saw a dragonfly drink a flagon dry... We learned it from Chez Watts of Bristol." Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Andrew Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:44 PM I saw a flea heave a tree Half way cross the Irish sea or maybe I saw the Villa win the cup And Walsall they did go up.. Andrew |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:19 PM One for Kevin: I saw the Spurs win at home Which really made Arsenal's day hehe! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:21 PM Bugger, got that wrong didn't I? Meant to say "Spurs win away" Not that it matters as they're not likely to do either... |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:54 PM I saw a potato chip in a bag but alas, it was crushed. A crushed potato chip is not a loss, alack, it is now many. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Hanson Date: 27 Apr 04 - 02:23 AM I saw the ' commons ' on Tv, fie man fie, I saw the ' commons ' on TV, who's the fool now, I saw the ' commons ' on TV, I won't renew my license fee eric |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 27 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM There are quite a few morris side verses: I saw the Squire buy a round - Fie Man, Fie, I saw the Squire buy a round - Who's the fool now, I saw the Squire buy a round - Saw the Bagman turn one down, Thou hast well drunken man - who's the fool now. I saw ***** dance a jig - Fie Man, Fie, I saw ***** dance a jig - Who's the fool now, I saw ***** dance a jig - He looked just like a drunken pig, Thou hast well drunken man - who's the fool now. and for the ladies: I saw a lass dance Shepherd's Hey - Fie Man, Fie, I saw a lass dance Shepherd's Hey - Who's the fool now, I saw a lass dance Shepherd's Hey - Halfway through her bra gave way, Thou hast well drunken man - who's the fool now. And of course you could even have one for a I saw old Spaw hold his wind - Fie Man, Fie, I saw old Spaw hold his wind - Who's the fool now, I saw old Spaw hold his wind - When he let it out, God how he grinned, Thou hast well drunken man - who's the fool now. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: alanww Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:23 AM As Malcolm Douglas says, it is a very old song. William Chappell in his "Popular Music of the Olden Time", published in 1855-1859 gives the 1588 and 1609 references that Malcolm quotes and also says that:- "... it is alluded to in Dekker's comedy, Old Fortunatus, where Shadow says: "Only to make other idiots laugh, and wise men cry 'Who's the fool now?' " which is the burden of every verse. It is thought to be a satire upon those who tell wonderful stories." And there are still a few of such people about today! "I saw the man in the moon ...!" Alan |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Pied Piper Date: 27 Apr 04 - 06:38 AM I saw PP being un-sarcastic I saw PP being un-sarcastic I saw PP being un-sarcastic And wearing trousers without elastic |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Kate Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM I just wanted to thank Lighter for mentioning the compilation CD of Folk Songs of Old England and Summer Solstice. It's called Heydays and is available from Amazon.com. I've ordered it and happily anticipate its arrival! Yay! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 27 Apr 04 - 04:51 PM Ok, I love this song and maybe it's longevity and renewell and evidenced here, chips, fries or whatever |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Barbara Date: 27 Apr 04 - 08:04 PM Charley, I don't know about the provenance of that verse, though I could suspect yourself as the author, sounds just like your kind of silliness, and it doesn't scan. Or at least you really have to work to get three sylables per note. It is fun, though. Possibly if you drop the "Saw" off the dragonfly part, you don't end up sounding like your mouth is quite so full of feathers. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:20 PM Barbara, I sympathise with you. The SCA (when I was involved) used this song as a base to sing in public many impromptu verses about events and people that happened during its regular gatherings. Robin |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lil Dog Turpy Date: 28 Apr 04 - 12:35 AM Funny, this almost became my theme song when I started singing it about 6 months ago. Calls of "the martin song!" Here's a few verses I've added I saw ***** drink a sprite, He stays sober every night I saw ***** miss a note My mistake, of course (s)he won't I heard ***** sing a song But the lyrics were so suggestive I couldn't possibly sing them for you here .... (yes I know it doesn't scan) What is that goaty smell With ****'s bodhran around we sure can tell and as a Brit who's now in Quebec I can vouch for the Qubec Chip (fry). They make a fine quality product here, but then insist on covering it in curd cheese and the most disgusting gravy you've ever seen and calling it Poutine! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Melani Date: 28 Apr 04 - 01:52 PM For the guy in our Ren faire guild who thinks it's funny to run up and down the parade grabbing at rear ends: I thought I saw a six-foot goose, Look out, Marty's on the loose. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Charley Noble Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:31 PM Barbara- I can't take credit for the "Saw a dragon fly drink a flagon dry." At one point I ran across a reference to the lines appropriately enough in a column by Richard Lederer, a reference that dated to the mid 19th century, but the column has gone astray. Another verse that probably came from the same source was: I'd rather have a bottle in front of me... Than a frontal lobotomy... There's a term for this kind of word game. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: LadyJean Date: 29 Apr 04 - 12:59 AM The traditional version says "I saw a snail drive a nail from Penzance up to Hale" I was delighted to discover, when we were in Cornwall, that Hale is the next town on the line after Penzance. Though I didn't see any snails driving nails. I heard a speech from a Bush fie man fie I heard a speech from a Bush, who's the fool now. I heard a speech from a Bush. Every word made me blush. Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Bentley Date: 29 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM I sometimes sing this one and often add a verse or two relating to an article of topical news.e.g. I saw Prince Charles on the dance floor;repeat;repeat;dancing with a Brazilian whore.Get the idea? |
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Subject: lyrics required..please From: GUEST,Ann Brady Date: 30 Jul 04 - 10:51 AM Hi, there is a song driving me mad....... I need to know if I have all the words. I know 3 verses but am sure there are more. I have heard it sung many years ago here in ireland, but feel it may be of english origin. Any info. lyrics, recordings etc appreciated. This is how it starts;
Old Martin says to his one who's the fool now? Old Martin says to his wan(one) fill up a cup and I'll have some, Thou art a drunken fool who's the fool now. I saw the flea hurl the tree............ 45 miles out to sea thou art a ....... I saw the maid milk the bull......... Fill up a cup til it was full, thou art etc. Happy singing!! |
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Subject: RE: lyrics required..please From: muppett Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:11 AM A couple of verses I sing in this song, I saw a Bull milk a maid ............... Should have heard the commotion they made .......... I saw a man dead in bed .................. Cause he'd bin supping Watney's Red .................. |
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Subject: RE: lyrics required..please (Martin said to his man..) From: Leadfingers Date: 30 Jul 04 - 01:55 PM If you put Martin Said To His Man in the search box you will find all the verses that matter . Then Add Muppets couple and this one :- I saw a Butterfly Flutter By And A Dragonfly Drink a Flagon dry And you have more than enough for one song , even in Ireland . |
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Subject: RE: lyrics required..please (Martin said to his man..) From: Rozza Date: 30 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM I rather liked the verse that went: I saw a bottle in front of me Fie man fie I saw the bottle in front of me Who's the fool now? I saw the bottle in front of me Better than frontal lebotomy! Thou has well drunken man Who's the fool now |
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Subject: RE: lyrics required..please (Martin said to his man..) From: Padre Date: 30 Jul 04 - 11:21 PM An old verse from the FSGW Getaways: I saw [here fill in the name of a person at the session] buy a round Saw [yet another name here] turn it down Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST,barely barley Date: 14 Feb 07 - 09:38 PM Can anyone help me with the chords to this tune? |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: CapriUni Date: 09 May 10 - 03:10 AM Refreshing this thread after a coon's age, I know. The tune to this song (as gathered from the midi in the DT) was in my head early, as I was just waking from a dream. ...It's been stuck there as an earworm, ever since. One could certainly have a much worse fate. Elizabethans thought really silly, impossible stuff was funny (especially when drunk). I've been witness, on several occasions in my life, to drunken 20th and 21at Century Americans (and Brits), and can say with confidence that the same holds true for them, as well. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Leadfingers Date: 09 May 10 - 06:16 AM Very true C U - Why be sensible when you have a chance to be VERY silly |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Phil Edwards Date: 09 May 10 - 08:52 AM This is probably of no interest to anyone but me, but this was the first folk song I ever learned from another singer. The year was 1976, the singer was this guy called Rob who was a mate of my friend Steve & ran a close-harmony unaccompanied équipe with the awful name of Eyesteel Span, and I picked up most of the tune OK but had terrible trouble getting the extra drop down to drun-ken, man. That did for my career as a young folkie - that, and my inability to sing harmony, and the fact that he wasn't actually auditioning me so much as filling in time before Steve turned up. The following year punk happened, and I cut my hair and forgot all about the Eng. Trad. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 09 May 10 - 08:58 AM I seem to remember it was the first or possibly second song you sang at the Beech - and a grand song with great choruses rang out L in C# |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Phil Edwards Date: 09 May 10 - 05:48 PM Indeed 'twas. I'd never heard anything like it, never mind started anything like it. A very fine night, & the first of many for me. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST Date: 09 May 10 - 06:28 PM Memories of the Horse and Jockey, Waddington (near Lincoln) in the early 1970's. It became almost a tradition that the guest of the night would do this as their final encore with the floorsingers adding verses. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Howlett Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:43 AM I'm thinking of reviving this at my local folk club. The new landlord is called Martin, and last Friday he got drunk and landed on his a**e. It usually takes them a few months to settle in before they do that, but he's only been in the job a week! Anyway, the way I interpret the words is that Martin is telling his servant to fill the cup with wine, while he p1sses in the can in the corner. I may even do a gesture suggesting this. After all, the song dates from 1609, when folks were lewder and songs were ruder. Contemporary satirical verses are always welcome: I heard Ms Theresa May Saying that she's here to stay. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: sapper82 Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:07 AM The Oyster at Butley, near Woodbridge in the summer of 1972 comes to mind. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Shaw Date: 16 Jul 17 - 07:53 AM In another recent thread I was reminded of my very first experience of folk singing, as a student at the Buck Inn, Malham, in 1970. This thread has reminded me that this was another of the songs sung there. Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Lighter Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:01 PM > 1609, when folks were lewder and songs were ruder. Probably not true. See any collection of rugby songs. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST,Senoufou Date: 16 Jul 17 - 01:20 PM 'Clouting' means 'mending'. So the Man in the Moon was mending St Peter's shoes. 'Fie' is an expression of disgust or disapproval. I'd translate, "Fie man, fie!" as "Don't be so bloody daft mate!" We hollered this song out in the folk club in Edinburgh in the early sixties. Everyone was a Scot, but we definitely sang, "Who's the fool now?" and not "Wha's fu' the noo?" I did often hear the word fu' (meaning drunk), especially among those from Fife. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:24 PM Similar 'impossibilities' songs and rhymes have been common in all ages since the 16th century and probably well before that. 'Paddy Backwards' is another which has been running for nearly 3 centuries. They overlap somewhat with nonsense songs. Rhymes like 'I went to the pictures tomorrow'. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GMGough Date: 16 Jul 17 - 03:52 PM > Clouting' means 'mending'. > So the Man in the Moon was mending St Peter's shoes. If the Man in the Moon was Henry VIII, then does "clouting off" mean dissociating with the catholic church; or does it mean mending the church in order that it will accede to Henry's demands. Some years ago I asked Maddy Prior about this verse after a Steeleye Show. Maddy said come back later. The band and audience stragglers including me adjourned to the bar. Later in a more quiet moment I asked again. Maddy said that it referred to Henry VIII and the Pope. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Jul 17 - 06:25 PM Or not! Interesting piece of conjecture but the 4 standard verses are all simple impossibilities. Chappell thought it simply 'a satire on those who tell wonderful stories' (possibly about Henry and the Pope) and this is more likely to happen when the storyteller is a drunken fool. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Greg F. Date: 16 Jul 17 - 09:36 PM Think you'll find that "can" or "cann" is an 18th century term for a tankard-like drinking vessel but without a lid. Nowt to do with pissing in the corner. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Snuffy Date: 17 Jul 17 - 05:25 AM "Come put your wine in glasses, put your cider in an old tin can, put John Barleycorn in a nut-brown bowl and he'll prove the strongest man" |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: vectis Date: 17 Jul 17 - 06:19 AM This verse is seldom sung The red rose he went to France To teach the lily how to dance. I think it refers to either Crecy or Agincourt. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Snuffy Date: 17 Jul 17 - 06:51 AM If the rest of the song refers to Henry VIII, then that verse could well refer to the Field of the Cloth of Gold in 1520 |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jul 17 - 09:22 AM BUT, the rest of the song doesn't refer to Henry VIII. The original song might well have had political referents but as it came down to us it's just a bit of fun. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Tootler Date: 17 Jul 17 - 09:31 AM My Aberdonian grandmother sometimes used to refer to clothes as "clouties" (pronounce "ou" as "oo") and where my wife comes from there's a saying "Ne'er cast a clout till May be out" In both cases "clout" basically means cloth so the reference to Field of the Cloth of Gold seems quite feasible. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jul 17 - 09:45 AM In previous centuries along with riddle competitions, singing competitions, drinking competitions, lying competitions were common forms of entertainment. Nowadays we put the whole lot together and just call it politics. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 Jul 17 - 09:47 AM Century! |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST Date: 17 Jul 17 - 10:51 AM i just sing it for fun! Learned it from Pete Quinn back in the old "Tipperary Pub" days in Detroit. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST,CJB Date: 17 Jul 17 - 12:17 PM I saw a ram butt a dam - fi man fi I saw a ram butt a dam - whose the fool now? I saw a ram butt a dam - and a bee swim in jam Thou hast well drunken man - whose the fool now? ==== I saw a whale chase a snail ... Faster than by British Rail ==== I saw a sheep shearing corn ... And a cuckold blow his horn ==== |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: BobL Date: 18 Jul 17 - 02:44 AM This will probably be lost on anyone under 50: I heard a swan loudly call Channel one-four, wall to wall And again a touch of history: I saw **** buy a round and get change from a pound |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Lighter Date: 18 Jul 17 - 01:53 PM Saw a hare chase a bear, Twenty miles in the air. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Jul 17 - 02:50 PM Saw Great Harry smoking dope, Said his dealer was the Pope. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST,CJB Date: 18 Jul 17 - 04:09 PM Saw a hare chase a hound ... 50 (or 20) miles above the ground ... === Saw the man in the Moon ... A cloutin' of St.Peter's shoon ==== Saw the cheese eat the rat ... And a mouse chase a cat ... === |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Lighter Date: 18 Jul 17 - 07:03 PM CJB, my hare/bear couplet is clearly an ex. of the "folk process," furthered by me,since I was trying to recall something I'd heard decades ago. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST,Phil Edwards Date: 19 Jul 17 - 06:37 AM I saw Les Jones debate with Diane Easby, Saw Malcolm Douglas correct them both... I can't actually make out Les's voice, but he's in here somewhere (as is Ged Gaskell, who left us last year). Absent friends... https://philedwards.bandcamp.com/track/whos-the-fool-now |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Phil Edwards Date: 19 Jul 17 - 06:47 AM Oops - blue clicky gone weird. How's this? Who's the fool now? |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: GUEST Date: 05 Nov 19 - 07:21 PM Hmm... What does, "Fill thou the cup and I the can" mean? What's the significance of cup versus can? Is "the can" a drinking vessel or is "the can" a toilet, as in, "fill thou the can" means "go take a piss"? |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Dave Hanson Date: 06 Nov 19 - 02:36 AM ' the can ' is a toilet in the USA, Martin Said To His Man is a traditional English drinking song, get it ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Gordon Jackson Date: 06 Nov 19 - 03:57 AM Hmm ... given that 'can' for 'toilet' dates back to the 1950s (www.alphadictionary.com) and the song is found printed in a 1609 songbook, I don't think that theory holds water (pun intended). I don't think song is simply about 'impossible things' per se, like, say, The Derby Ram. Rather, I see it as being about hallucinating while drunk. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: JeffB Date: 07 Nov 19 - 01:36 PM A cup is rounded and has a handle, a can is straight-sided and doesn't have a handle. I don't know what is significant about the difference as far as the song is concerned, except that a cup was probably higher class. That would be in line with the song's running joke, which is that gentleman Martin is getting drunk with his servant. But see Steve Howlett's post of 16 Jul 17 above for a more imaginative interpretation. Cans are occasionally mentioned in songs involving drink; e.g. The Hsarvest Horn The master brings the can, he's a jolly-hearted man,/ "Come my lads and take a pull of the best" etc ..... The earliest record of the song was when it was registered by a Thomas Orwyn in 1588, so it has some history. |
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Subject: RE: Martin Said to His Man From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 Nov 19 - 03:03 PM Looking at some old 15th/16th century manuscript songs these 'impossibilities' songs were fairly common then and were referred to as 'burlesques' which is of interest to me as the meaning and usage of the word 'burlesque' seems to have altered by about 1600 to mean a satire on a serious piece of work like a ballad, play, story or even a whole genre. This meaning persisted until the end of the nineteenth century when it was recycled again to also mean smutty performances in the Music Hall. |
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