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Martin Said to His Man

DigiTrad:
WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN


Related threads:
Lyr Req: I know a Milk maid - Napoleonic folk song (10)
who's the fool now (33)
martin said to his man couplets (14)
Lyr Req: Martin Said to His Man (35)


Les in Chorlton 24 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Apr 04 - 04:42 AM
Morticia 24 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM
Les in Chorlton 24 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM
Kevin Sheils 24 Apr 04 - 05:37 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM
GUEST,MCP 24 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Charley Noble 24 Apr 04 - 07:39 AM
Lanfranc 24 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM
alanabit 24 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM
Kevin Sheils 24 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM
Kevin Sheils 24 Apr 04 - 08:44 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Apr 04 - 09:59 AM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM
MickyMan 24 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM
yrlancslad 24 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM
Once Famous 24 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM
Peace 24 Apr 04 - 09:04 PM
Lighter 24 Apr 04 - 09:20 PM
Once Famous 24 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM
Melani 25 Apr 04 - 01:19 AM
Peace 25 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM
Dave Hanson 25 Apr 04 - 03:57 AM
Les in Chorlton 25 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM
Kevin Sheils 25 Apr 04 - 05:53 AM
Once Famous 25 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM
Micca 25 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM
Peace 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM
Once Famous 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM
YorkshireYankee 25 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM
Once Famous 25 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM
GUEST 25 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM
The Walrus 25 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM
Dave Masterson 26 Apr 04 - 03:21 AM
s&r 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM
s&r 26 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM
Gurney 26 Apr 04 - 04:59 AM
pavane 26 Apr 04 - 07:06 AM
The Borchester Echo 26 Apr 04 - 07:26 AM
Dave Bryant 26 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM
Dave Masterson 26 Apr 04 - 07:59 AM
Once Famous 26 Apr 04 - 08:23 AM
Pied Piper 26 Apr 04 - 08:43 AM
Dave Bryant 26 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM
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Subject: Martin said to his man
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM

Fye, man fye
Martin said to his man
Who's the fool now?

What's that all about then?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:42 AM

Fill thou the cup and I the can

Seems to be a blokish thing about who gets to drink the most.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Morticia
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM

Kendall here. I believe it's a drunken lie contest among a group of soldiers. A sort of, "Can you top this"


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM

All good stuff. Is it dead old and full of strange meaning:

I saw thw man in the moon
clouting off St Peter's shoon

or is it just Victorian ramblings?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:37 AM

I used to sing it years ago with Don Bonito. Didn't worry about deep significance, just treated it as a standard drinking chorus song that was handy to get the audience joining in.

It's just a list of impossible things you might imagine you'd see when you've had a few.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM

Ah yes. Must have been where I first heard it, upstairs in the Enterprise, Chalk Farm.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM

See also Wha's Fu' in Digitrad, that (=who's had enough to drink) being a possible origin for who's the fool.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: GUEST,Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:39 AM

And there are more revelations to come that we should endeavor to put into verse.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Lanfranc
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM

I learned it originally from Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, but, coincidentally, I also used to sing it with Dom Bonito when we ran Saffron Walden FC together back in the 80s and early 90s.

Haven't heard it sung for ages - perhaps I'll essay a revival!

Never bothered to analyse it, just regarded it as a fun singalong.

Alan


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM

Where is Don Bonito? Is he still singing?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: alanabit
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM

I recall Stillwood of Reading doing it unaccompanied in the seventies. I remember one of them said that Tim Hart and Maddy Prior used to sing it together. Who knows more?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM

That was after Don & I sang together Lanfranc.

Countess, I last saw Don about 4 (?) years back at the Cellar Upstairs 25th birthday party. Well it was 25 years since Sheila started running the club anyway. He and I sang together again then having been old Cellar residents as well as the Enterprise. Come to think of it, maybe it was the 30th birthday party.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:44 AM

Just noticed that Lanfranc used Dom, whereas I used Don, for our old singing colleague. It's true that Dominic was his proper name but tended to call himself Don when I sang with him, maybe it sounded more "godfatherish" he being of Irish/Italian extraction :-). I guess he must have started using Dom later.

He was still living in Saffron Walden recently.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM

Wonder if he'll come down the M11 to Moreton Village Festival then?

June 11 - 13, everybody!


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:59 AM

It's allegedly an old Scottish song that the English stole, stuffed up the words, and now claim that it doesn't make any sense! The English thus claim that the song is about stupid fools.

The alleged original had as a chorus "Who's fu' the noo?" - literally "Who's full now?" meaning "Who's drunk now?" The English botched it to "Who's the fool now?".

When you look at this, the things traditionally sung as being seen are those a drunk traditionally sees, not a fool.

Of course, a drunk may be a fool too, I suppose...

Robin


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM

It's quite old as these things go, and was licensed to the publisher Thomas Orwin in 1588, though no broadside copies survive. It appeared in Thomas Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia (1609):

Freemens songs of 4 Voices.

...and in various publications during the 17th century. A different tune, with the "wha's fu' now" refrain, appeared in Henry Playford's Original Scotch Tunes (1701); this seems to be the earliest version we have from Scotland, where it also appears in a number of guises.

Ann Gilchrist (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, IV (3) 1942, 118-121) quotes examples from England and Scotland, and remarks on "...a confusion between 'fool' and 'full' (fou'=drunk) on one side or other of the Border", but draws no conclusions as to any "national" origin for the song and its relatives, pointing instead to the occurrence of similar songs and themes throughout Britain and Ireland, in most of the languages spoken here.


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Subject: RE: Tim Hart and Maddy Prior
From: MickyMan
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Yes, Tim Hart and Maddy Prior definately used to sing it together on their immortal "Folk Songs Of Old England" recording (I think that was the name). This is an absolutely wonderful recording. Simply done with beautiful harmony singing. Before all of their rock influenced stuff. Is it available on CD?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

I'm led to believe that Martin's 'man' is in fact his master. Martin being the servant and taking the piss once his man has had a few too many. Can't remember where I heard that though...

I saw a maid milk a bull
every stroke a bucket full...


Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: yrlancslad
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM

I've been singing it so long I can't remember where I got it from, maybe Hart & Prior way back when. I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant).
I saw a maid milk a bull
Every SQUIRT a bucketfull..... is the way I have it, much more sugestive


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

I just want you to know I never said this to any man.

First of all, Chicagoans never say the word "fye"

"Fry" yes. I have said that many times as they go quite well with a hot dog.

I would not ever even consider saying "fye" to a woman, either.

Thank you for reading this.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Peace
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:04 PM

Montreal (specifically the Province of Quebec) makes the best fries. (Martin don't you even THINK of startin'.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:20 PM

Both volumes of Hart & Prior's "Folk Songs of Olde England" plus the equally great "Summer Solstice" are all currently available on ONE CD from the UK. A Google search should turn it up.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

Hey Brucie

Do they make fresh cut fries (not the frozen variety) that are not at all greasy and are a little crunch at the ends? These are the best I have found. Also a Chicago phenomenon is cheese fries, where auality hot melted cheddar, usually like the spreadable kind that comes in a plastic tub is pured over the fresh cut fries. Cheese fries, done right are divine.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Melani
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:19 AM

We sing it at Ren faires. Elizabethans thought really silly, impossible stuff was funny (especially when drunk).


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM

Hey, Martin. The fries I mean usually come from small stands by the sides of highways in Quebec. The stands are called 'casse croutes' (sp?) and they are cut from potatoes like right there (or at least within the past hour. They are deep fried to a medium-dark brown and served with salt and vinegar. Ambrosia, sheer and utter. (That is not steer and udder.)

Sometime in the future, you and I will have to get loose in Chicago AND Montreal to do the taste tests. However, it's beginning to seem to me that Chicago dogs would go very well with Quebec fries, and steamies with Chicago fries.

Man, I am getting hungry. Later, buddy.

Bruce M


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:57 AM

They are NOT fries, they are called CHIPS and only we English know how to make them properly.
eric


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM

Thank you Malcolm, most helpful.

How do you feel about what Jinky Wells and friends thought they were upto dancing them starnge dances?


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:53 AM

I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant).

Whilst this seems a reasonable interpretation DtG's posting above with it the other way round seems more likely to me, now that I read and think about it.

On reflection in another use of the word "Man', in Lou Reed's "Waiting for The Man", it's obvious who the "boss" in that relationship is.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM

Fries are not chips. Potato chips are chips. If frys are chips, what are chips?

Start getting used to calling it fish and frys. Chips come in a bag.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Micca
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM

what Americans call "Chips" are actually Crisps!!!!


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Peace
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM

One people divided by a common language.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM

No, potato crisps are not potato chips. The product called Pringles are potatoe crisps. Pringles originally tried to pawn themselves off as potatoe chips, which are described by The Potato Chip Institute (yes, there is such a thing and it is a powerful organization that regulates quality in snack food) as slices of potato cooked in oil. Potato crisps are potatos, mashed and then machine formed and then cooked in oil. Every potato crisp is the same size and shape. The Potatoe Chip institue actually made Pringles change the name of their product.

Case closed.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM

Case closed indeed, Martin... as long as you don't find yourself in England. I can guarantee you that if you come over here and ask for "chips", you will *not* get a bag containing very thin slices of potato cooked in oil -- regardless of what The Potato chip Institute has decreed.

Also... if you ask for "egg roll", you will get...
a fried egg -- placed between two halves of a bread roll!

Cheers,

YY
who has been there, done that & decided *not* to get the tee-shirt


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM

I'm bot planning on going.

I'll just stay here where 250 million people know how to talk English. And an egg roll can be followed by some kung pao chicken.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM

If you go to Poland 'chipsis' will get you crisps and if you want what we English call chips you ask for 'fritkis'. Don't know why I told you that. Anyway, as we invented them, we can call them what we like - as can Americans, even though they are wrong.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Walrus
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM

GUEST (04:08)

You're Belgian?

Ducking and running very very fast.

Walrus

By the bye, to make the best chips (yes real British chips, not those anaemic monstrosities made from re-processed dehydrated potato substitute that get sold as 'fries'), the freshly cut potato should be soaked in clean running water for about an hour (or two to three hours in still water changed frequently).


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM

Walrus, that is too much time, money and equipment to expend in making something that's not even good for people.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM

Real chips are double fried. The first deep frying seals the outside. They are then cooled, then the second deep frying cause the moisture to expand, giving you a crisp outer, with a moist soft delicous centre. The double frying also ensure that the temperature of teh oil does not drop, but is kept very high.

Real chips are deep fried in Lard. If it is done right, very litle fat is absorbed, because firstly the high fat temperature seals the outside in the first deep frying too rapidly for the fat to be absorbed. The chips are then removed, allowing the fat to regain high temperature.

The chips can then be kept for some hours, nowadays they even deep freeze them. The second frying, especially if they are deep frozen, produces magic light brown chips.

There are slight modifications for chunky, normal and straw chips.

Oven Bake chips are a different game.

The right type of potato is essential too - the big fast food chains have actually spent heaps of money to get the right sort of potato.

Robin
(A Foodie!)


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:21 AM

Desperately trying to get thread back on course..........

It was very popular with Hartley Morris sessions back in the 70's. One extra verse added was:
"I saw a snail drive a nail, faster than the British Rail."

No change there then!


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: s&r
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM

still on thread: we always sang "every pull a bucket full" with a nice internal rhyme.

Off thread my dictionary says that American is the English spoken in America. What are kettle chips???


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: s&r
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM

still creeping - this is in another thread vive le difference

stu


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Gurney
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:59 AM

Back to the thread.

It isn't fye, it is fie. Like many old words in English, this has several meanings.

(1) True. (ie True, man, true)
(2) Predestined.
(3) A fairy. Don't quote me if you intend to sing this meaning in an UK pub.
(4) A facetious exclamation of disapproval (ie Crap, man, crap)

The Dict. of Archaic Words (1-2-3) and Collins (4)

I've always understood that I'm singing (4) but after a few pints (1) also works.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: pavane
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:06 AM

Thread Uncreep: The Dransfields - Rout of the Blues, 1970, I think


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:26 AM

Yep. But Robin and Barry recorded it as 'Who's the Fool Now?'


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM

I like the verse:

I saw the Ale drink the Man . . . .
. . . . by the bucket and the can.


But I object to the verse that Hartley Morris used to sing that started:

I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . .


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:59 AM

Come on Dave, cough up... what was the second line!

(If anyone want to pm me, I'll tell them! tee-hee...)


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:23 AM

French Fies?

Then there is kettle cooked chips, my favorite, like those Cape Cod ones.


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Pied Piper
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:43 AM

Maris Piper makes the best Chips with the double frying technique above.
This variety was developed in the UK were we cook things rather than pulverise extrude and process in the cheapest oil to keep 100 million Americans morbidly obese.

PP


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM

OK - I suppse that I'm thick-skinned enough.

I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . .
. . . It was too bloody loud and too bloody long !


Mind you, in some ways that's out of kilter with the other verses which are all about unlikely things - it's never been difficult getting me to sing !


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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:05 AM

Actually Pied Piper, it is allegedly a (French) Chef who was trying to cook potatoes for his Lord & Master. He boiled them, but due to some misunderstanding in the kitchen, they were well underdone and cold, and it was almost time to serve, but long enough for them to finish, so he cut them up, and deep fried them, then presented them as a special dish, the great ceremony allowing the extra few minutes to prepare them.

Another good story is that a 19C Chinese gentleman got on the wrong boat, and ended up in England instead of the USA. He made a living by using his wok to deep fry small fillets of fish and sliced potatoes (both were cheap for him to buy!) and selling them in the street, thus was born the great English craze.

Robin


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