BS: Bush's cowardice controversy

Subject: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:57 PM

http://www.jordansplace.net/politics/html/bushkerry_nam.html

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:13 PM

You can look at much more recent events for evidence of Bush's cowardice. His pre-war dealings with the UN and his failure to deal with the Valerie Plame leaker are good examples.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:35 PM

Five reasons for Rejecting GWB is an interesting page.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Peace
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 02:53 PM

If the American people are foolish enough to elect him (again or for the first time, depending on your view of things), I will be very surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

http://www.thiscenturysucks.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 03:27 PM

Brucie, The best odds you can get on Bush being elected again is 11/8 on, with William Hill in the UK.
So you can be sure the more bombs rain down on the defenceless population of Iraq, this magnificent orator will once again return to the podium to entertain us with his lighting repartee.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: beadie
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

Brucie:

Unfortunately, as was observed by H.L.Mencken, . . . "no one ever went broke because he underestimated the intelligence of the American public."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 06:18 PM

Not sure about that, beadie. As a quote, I keep turning up no one ever went broke because he underestimated the taste of the American public.

Mind you, I do rather like In Europe, aristocracy is founded upon land. In the United States, it is founded upon real estate, which is also one of his!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:02 PM

I am not a Bush fan---for sure. But---is this US bashing?   Let us face facts---Mr. Blair went along with all this subterfuge for war. He, at least, speaks well and seems believable.   In the end---people are dying for the personal interests and wealth of a few. The leaders, as always, are above it and ---as Bush are busy wacking weeds on his ranch showing his manliness---and Blair--well, I still don't understand his following the "leader" game. He seemed brighter than that.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM

If Blair is so "believable" then why is it that we keep hearing this 80% figure of Brits who are against the invasion of Iraq when we here in the US have the Liar of Century who can only muster 50% support, at best...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: beadie
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:57 PM

Raedwulf:

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:15 PM

Were you to display some evidence of your charge, Donuel, your charge might have more credibility. A website that promotes hate of GWB don't cut it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: beadie
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM

Raedwulf:

Sorry for the abbreviated reply post (spell that;

p-r-e-m-a-t-u-r-e s-u-b-m-i-s-s-i-o-n)

I, too, have seen the Mencken quote written as you cite, . . . as well as the other way. erhaps he made the similar observations on two different occasions . . . ?

Either way, it seems to fit in this context. After all, election choices are a matter of taste rather than an intellectual exercise for many Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM

What's the point Doug? If you saw a picture of Bush pitchforking a baby on Fox you'd say the same thing.

Its not a matter of credibility but of plainly illustrating established fact.

It sure looks like scanned images of Kerry's request to fight and Bush's request not to. Do you think that Bush actually wanted to go overseas? His father's history and family connections could have got him into a combat unit pretty easily I'll wager.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 01:12 PM

From the above site:

Kerry pointing out the obvious, in a era when the obvious often goes unreported (you know like "Bush is a idiot who thinks God is telling him to go to war when it is really just Cheney throwing his voice").


LOL!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM

I find it interesting that people excuse his behavior during Viet Nam with the whine that "that was 30 years ago" and neglect his cowardice on 9/11.

There are times that the leader is supposed to stand up and not worry about whether people are taking shots at him, no matter what his advisors say. That is what our structure of government is about--structural depth. Instead, he went to ground until the spin doctors got through rehearsing him in what he had to say to sound sincere.

If he were not a coward, he would not have felt the need to bully the UN to the point where most of the 'civilized world' refused to have anything to do with his assault on Iraq when and how he wished to have at it.

Now, he is losing face for us at a mad rate. Of course, since his only entry strategy was "go in and be welcomed after we knock over the Straw Man," he was completely unprepared for the disapproval of the Iraqi public and the fact that we are not wanted there.

Iraq is our tar baby and we are getting more and more stuck.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:42 AM

Doug R. - Most of the world hates Bush. He is a bully and now that we know more about bullies, we know that inside they are really cowards. You are like one of the little wannabes who stand around egging on the bully while he stomps on someone. People like you, support the bullies out of fear.

What is it about Bush that you like?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:55 AM

Simple. Bush is Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:21 AM

Ebbie, Bush is a simple Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: John P
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:40 AM

I don't care that Bush didn't serve 30 years ago. I do care that he has tried to whitewash the situation now. What would be so bad about standing up and saying, "Yes, I had an opportunity to serve the country without getting shot at. I took it. Deal with it."

Bush's modern cowadice is shown by his testimony before the 9/11 commission yesterday. His conditions: Cheney at his side. No oath. No recordings. In other words, he's not willing to stand up by himself and speak for the record and for the public to hear. I'd say that the buck stops somewhere else, except for the fact that so many of his rich friends are getting so much richer during his residency.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:25 AM

If Bush is a coward for not fighting, and Kerry was brave for fighting, than I assume that all of you voted for Bob Dole when he ran against Bill Clinton.   After all, Dole was a war hero and Clinton was an objector who fled the country.

If you did not support Bob Dole against Clinton, you are now a hypocrite in your position.

PS:    Kerry ssid on the Senate floor that we shouldn't judge a person by whether they served in the military of not.   So why is he bringing up Vietnam and questioning Bush's record in the national guard every chance he gets?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:50 AM

My recent Bush toons

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushfalluja.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/ovalawful.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushflight31.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:14 AM

I can tell you that Dianavan is right when he says "most of the world hates Bush" , people I know who were supporters of the US have now turned againt it wuth a passion.
The pictures on out TV from Iraq are stomach-turning, do the US citizens really believe that terrot tatics and slaughter of innocent civilians, will win hearts and minds?,.
What the US is doing now in Iraq is leaving a legacy of hate that will come back to haunt them.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:16 AM

Larry Keiffer, comon, Clinton went to Oxford on a scholarship.

You should have been so lucky/smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

PNAC and the MIC worked very hard replacing the old cold war adversaries with new ones. Problem is, the new ones have nothing to lose, and are therefore more dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

My brother-in-law stayed out of Vietnam on a student deferrment. Does that make him a coward?

Bruce Springsteen tells a story of how he and several friends got fucked up the night before their Army physicals so they'd have a better chance of failing. Are they cowards?

Bill Clinton took a lot of flak for protesting the Vietnam War while he was in another country, AND getting student deferrment. That don't mean squat to me - but does that make him a coward?

How many of you who might have served during that time, didn't? Does that make you cowards too?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:37 AM

Would you folks from across the pond please remember that Bush lost the popular vote by a landslide? Most of the folks I know (military and civilian) don't like the war in Iraq. The truth will out at the next election (unless something impeachable turns up). We don't sit around and blast the UK because Blair went along for the ride. You wan't to blast the Pres. that's ok but don't broad brush "Americans".
This has to be the worst case of a divided America since our Civil War!

I always thought that Clinton at least did what he believed in the same way the Bob Dole did what he believed in so it really wasn't an issue to me. The Pres. has said he served but didn't want to go to vietnam (don't blame him) but he sidestepped the issue by getting into (with some help supposedly) the Nat'l Guard and then dissed them as well. Kerry did what he believed was right in serving and then giving voice against the war. To me that trumps the pres. service.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:03 PM

CC, Hope you are right about the next election, I have my doubts, Bush is still favourite to win.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:52 PM

I didn't. I got a ministerial exemption and kept on pursuing my own life. I don't think that was a matter of cowardice. I just had no time for a violent solution, because I believed that better solutions were to be had.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM

Amos- You're not the one who's a lame duck - incumbent bashing you're oppponent's service, awards, protests, etc. I don't necessarily think that Bush is a coward. But there's a certain amount of selflessness that I expect out of my presidents. They're supposed to be serving the citizens of the United States (not just the people who got them elected). To say that he took the Nat'l guard as his service would be fine if he had fulfilled his service agreement (which he didn't by deciding not to fly regardless of what he did afterward). To say the he stood up for what he believed in and protested against the war would be fine as well in my eyes. I believe he has been groomed for political office for years and the route he took allowed him to avoid both getting killed in Vietnam and being seen as a radical. Things are so black and white for him until it comes to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:16 PM

You are a wise man Amos, The kind of cowardice in Bush is not accepting respondsiblity for anything except starting a war.

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/bushblame.jpg

Subject: My Secret Thoughts about Bush
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:56 PM

I am an American, or, to some of you, a Yankee, to others, a Damyankee. By Alaska standards, I'm a flamin' liberal, which means I have less than seven guns in my house (three that work, including an air rifle which has never harmed a living thing).

But I digress.

Herman Wouk, who wrote some tomes in the 80's, wrote a relatively thin novel and a play in the 50's. The book was called The Caine Mutiny, and the play was called The Caine Mutiny Courtmartial. The two were turned into a flick with Van Johnson, Fred McMurry, and a famous supporting role characterization by Humphrey Bogart as Captain Queeg. The story was about a U.S. Navy minesweeper being captained by a fairly unsteady type, who impressed his crew as a chickenshit officer, a chickenshit being somebody who is both ineffective and domineering at the same time. During a tropical storm in which the ship is almost lost, a coterie of officers take over the ship. In the resulting courtmartial they seem to be about to lose their case (which is potentially a capital one) when their lawyer, a slick one well aware of his own capabilities, puts their captain on the stand and leans on him so hard that some of his nervous traits appear (the famous ball bearings). The judges are swayed by his obvious instability to let off the officers. (It's a great movie from the B & W era).

The officers are celebrating their good fortune when their slick lawyer shows up having tied one on and very angry with everyone. He lets them have it. His message, and the author's, is: You guys had a choice. You knew you had a weak leader. But, you could have sucked it in and helped him as best you could, and played a part in the war effort against the real enemy. Instead you let pride and a poor knowledge of psychology lead you to creating a dangerous legal mess and a drain on your country's resources. The lawyer felt sorry for the men because there was an additional character who had egged them into it, yet escaped being charged by the court.

George W. has his faults. He doesn't shine in debate, and he has a garbled way of expressing himself in public. I disagree with much of his domestic agenda and the folks he was working it. I personally think he does not have a deep background in foreign affairs.

But he is the leader of the U.S. and the free world at a time when we have a real enemy out there, and he deserves support no matter what we think of him personally. If our European allies out there were a bit less self-centered (and, yes, a bit more gutsy), they could have led us to a more cooperative effort that brought us under U.N. jurisdiction and it would have been better for everyone.

W is not a bad person. He is not a stupid person. He is no coward. He has a moral center. He is someone we can work with. That is the message that is not getting out, although I suspect that that could be Blair's perception of him and the situation, and the PM has been IMHO courageous and brilliant in putting the British into the fray on our side.

I think we will find out that France and Russia had their own more selfish Iraqi agendas. I think we are already finding out about major corruption in that paragon of ethics and upright standards, The United Nations.

The reality of the world is that it isn't just what you stand for but the way you stand. So the U.S. is up for justifiable criticism. But the U.S. also deserves some help. Accusing W of being a worse menace than (fill in here) is just not on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM

Bad? Staring a war because God said so may not be bad to you but it distresses me.

Since Bush is severly developmentally challenged in his 50's the prognosis is grim.

Its what he says and how he says it.

Today he said... (official quote from White House website)
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/nyminute.jpg

Mighty white of him, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Nerd
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

Ha. What makes me laugh about Larry K's post

If Bush is a coward for not fighting, and Kerry was brave for fighting, than I assume that all of you voted for Bob Dole when he ran against Bill Clinton.   After all, Dole was a war hero and Clinton was an objector who fled the country.

is that it exactly describes the hypocrisy of the right. You didn't hear Clinton saying that Dole's medals weren't real or he did or didn't throw them, or his being shot down was really his own fault, or any of this garbage that they are now saying about Kerry. I've seen people saying that his taking his swift boat back to save a wounded comrade was a violation of standing orders, so he should have been court-martialed, that his wounds were really superficial and he didn't deserve his medals, etc. This is the same machine that was claiming four years ago that McCain had been driven insane during the war and was too unstable to be president.

The right's position in 1996 was: Dole is a war hero, Clinton didn't serve, so Dole should win. Now it's: Kerry wasn't really a hero, and Bush kinda served, and Kerry's actions after the war were cowardly, and he threw his medals, or his ribbons, or someone else's medals, or something, so Bush should win. It's sickening.

My position: let the Bush side and the Kerry side stop attacking each other's wartime experiences. Let them each talk about their OWN leader and what HE did during the war, and shut up about the other guy.

Guess what? Kerry would talk up a storm, and his old navy buddies would support him, and Bush would shut the f*ck up.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:48 PM

Someone please tell me what purpose it serves in being hateful toward the president. Maybe I'm missing something.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:56 PM

Donuel, I suggest that that quote rather supports my point. You seem to want to make Bush de-facto racist and stupid rather than honest and plain-spoken (in his own way). If you'd like to expand in your own words on what's so terrible about Bush's words (thus taking the same risk he does) I'd like to see what you have to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

Kim:

I can't speak for others, but when I am "hateful" toward George W. Bush, it is because I am extremely upset with him for lying to me.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:32 PM

Disagreeing is all right. I'm talking about all the name-calling, finger-pointing, and out-and-out hatred I've been seeing, here and elsewhere. It's possible to express disagreement without resorting to juvenile means.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

Good ol boys down here would say that it was very white of George to say what he did. It seems robo would agree.

Who except a racist would have a perspective that less than white nations are seen as inately inferior by many/most people.

Bush was speaking of the Iraq culture which undoubtedly has religious and racist/tribal hostilities not unlike many nations but Iraq was a high Arab culture that is now in ruin as the direct result of the blood feud with the Bush family over the last 22 years.

If one wants to point at African nations I would like to point out that undoing white colonialism and slavery takes hundreds of years.
The legacy lasts for thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:38 AM

Robo - There's a difference here. One, that was a movie, the reason the lawyer said what he did was because it was in the script. It was fiction!

In the real world if Captain Queeg had actually existed he would have been helped overboard in the night by the crew (and yes, it has happened). His character placed the ship and crew in danger and their was really nothing the crew could do except disobey his orders which leads everyone in the crew to follow suit. Supporting the skipper is not about doing whatever he wants to do, it's about following orders made by competent authority which queeg plainly wasn't.

The pres. was not elected by the people of the U.S. The results of the Florida election were questionable regardless of how far to the right you are. He was more or less selected to run the country by the supreme court. Once there he should have done his best to bring the country together. Instead his domestic agenda seemed to focus on further dividing the US by giving massive tax brakes to the wealthy and boldly dismantling dozens of environmental laws which mostly negatively affect the "small folks" and benefit the wealthy. Then came 9/11 and we all became one in our determination to find those responsible and bring them to justice. What should have been his shining moment and guarantee of re-election was squandered by his unilateral decision to go after Saddam. It's becoming apparent that he didn't even bother asking some of his top cabinet members about going to war, just decided he already knew how they thought about it. He dissed the UN, and some of our strongest allies. He strong armed or otherwise threatened many weaker countries into supporting us and then invaded Iraq, pulling resources away from the continuing search for Bin Laden and other Al Quaida as well as the stabalization of Afghanistan. Almost all of the reasons that the Pres. gave for going to war have so far (I'm willing to give them more time to find the weapons or nuclear items) proved to be erronious at best and perhaps out right lies at worst. With every discovery that the given reason had been faulty the administration would come up with another reason. They seem to have settled on "the world is better off without Saddam in power" (how that is, I have yet to see) and as far as I know has never been a reason for launching a war on a sovereign foreign state. By doing so the pres. has also managed to inflame the hatred of the muslim community that for the most part were as astonished by 9/11 as we were. He has also alienated the rest of the world community. We also seem to have no exit strategy in Iraq. And all the while the bodies pile up and the national debt just keeps on growing and growing.

The troops need our support. THe administration seems to need adult supervision.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:29 PM

Donuel - My daughter tells me that there was acturally more to that racist remark. Bush went on to say that he didn't want to put words in the mouth of Canadian's prime minister, but he was sure that Paul Martin would agree with him.

What a stupid ass Bush is! He has finally realized that Paul Martin is somebody he wants on his side. Americans should learn more about Martin. I don't like him much but he is at least equal if not superior to Bush. Martin is at least a thinking human being and a very smart businessman.

My daughter has convinced me that Kerry should be the next president because Kerry and Martin would be a good team. What would really be scary is Bush in the States and Harper in Canada. A match made in hell! Nader and Layton would be just too good to ever happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:53 PM

Gee, it is refreshing to see so many posters on this forum so concerned about who served overseas, and who did not. I guess it's safe to assume that you (said posters) either volunteered as Kerry did, or what? Perhaps it is not still too late. The coilition forces could certainly use some help in Iraq.

Any volunteers?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:03 PM

I'll volunteer to accompany the non-PResident to Basra if it will get him out of the White House any sooner. I doubt he'd survive -- too many widows and orphans think he had something to do with this war being started...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: dianavan
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:59 PM

Doug R - Volunteers? Are you crazy? Who would volunteer with a commander in chief like Bush? Who would volunteer to serve in a war that only helps the rich get richer? Who would volunteer to serve beside untrained, contract personnel?

Oh wait a minute. Maybe it will be the criminals who go to court and are given the choice between jail time and enlisting. Thats where you will get your volunteers. Or maybe some will volunteer because they can't find any work at home and can't afford university. Others may volunteer because they are illiterate. Still others will volunteer because they are psycopaths and might get the opportunity to torture and maim.

Who else might volunteer?

I'll volunteer if the Bush girls volunteer. Oh wait - I take that back. They might volunteer in a drunken stupor.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:47 PM

Robomatic - Interesting posts. I appreciate the thought you put into them. In my case, I'm opposed to Bush because I think his policies are wrong (mistaken, I mean) and because I think he's under the influence of some other people, such as Cheney and Wolfowitz, who have a destructive agenda in mind that predated 911 and simply used 911 as an excuse for taking military action...in search of oil and strategic postioning in the Middle East and the Caspian region. I'm not against Bush because I hate him. I don't hate him at all, matter of fact. He has some likeable qualities.

I think the "War Against Terrorism" is extremely unwise, because it's attacking the symptom, not the disease. It's ignoring the real causes of the disease.

I think the war against Iraq was unjustified aggression, launched on spurious justifications...but I also think that Bush himself may have believed in those justifications.

We'll see how it all unfolds. I agree with you that there's no point in hating the man...but that's the effect that partisan politics has on people. They grow to hate "the other party's guy". Then they see everything through the lens of that emotion. This does not benefit democracy, it damages it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Bush's cowardice controversy
From: dianavan
Date: 02 May 04 - 01:05 PM

robomatic - But he is the leader of the U.S. and the free world at a time when we have a real enemy out there, and he deserves support no matter what we think of him personally. If our European allies out there were a bit less self-centered (and, yes, a bit more gutsy), they could have led us to a more cooperative effort that brought us under U.N. jurisdiction and it would have been better for everyone.

You are delusional. Since when was Bush the leader of the free world? This a bit "self-centered" don't you think? As to "guts" - guts without reason and responsibility reduces one to the status of "bully". When the U.N. and Canada said, NO - it should have been a clue. What is it about NO, that Bush doesn't understand? Co-operation is a two way street. I haven't seen Bush demonstrate co-operation with anyone but his war-monger pals.