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BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis

GUEST 28 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 04 - 09:02 PM
DougR 28 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM
Metchosin 28 Apr 04 - 09:14 PM
Metchosin 28 Apr 04 - 09:18 PM
GUEST,TIA 28 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM
Metchosin 28 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Apr 04 - 09:32 PM
freda underhill 28 Apr 04 - 09:37 PM
artbrooks 28 Apr 04 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 28 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM
GUEST 28 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM
Amos 28 Apr 04 - 10:23 PM
Bobert 28 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM
Rapparee 28 Apr 04 - 11:12 PM
dianavan 28 Apr 04 - 11:42 PM
GUEST,peedeecee 28 Apr 04 - 11:59 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 29 Apr 04 - 02:17 AM
steve in ottawa 29 Apr 04 - 03:13 AM
dianavan 29 Apr 04 - 04:31 AM
dianavan 29 Apr 04 - 04:52 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 07:16 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 07:36 AM
George Papavgeris 29 Apr 04 - 07:43 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 07:54 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM
InOBU 29 Apr 04 - 08:01 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 08:07 AM
jacqui.c 29 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM
jacqui.c 29 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM
Peter T. 29 Apr 04 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 08:35 AM
artbrooks 29 Apr 04 - 08:55 AM
Amos 29 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM
Strick 29 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM
Little Hawk 29 Apr 04 - 09:09 AM
Rapparee 29 Apr 04 - 09:15 AM
jacqui.c 29 Apr 04 - 09:33 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 09:46 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 09:48 AM
Stu 29 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM
Rapparee 29 Apr 04 - 09:50 AM
Peter T. 29 Apr 04 - 09:55 AM
Amos 29 Apr 04 - 10:32 AM
Cruiser 29 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM
Little Hawk 29 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM
GUEST 29 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM
Rapparee 29 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

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Subject: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

Not surprisingly at all to me, tonight's deeply disturbing CBS 60 Minutes program put the truth to the lie that all American soldiers are honorable and worthy of our respect. Those photographs shown during the program are a pretty damning indictment of our troops' behavior in Iraq. Honor the troops? Not in my name, thank you very much.

US OUT OF IRAQ NOW!

Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Probed


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:02 PM

One striking thing in that story "... a U.S. soldier came forward with allegations and evidence of abuse."

The crucial thing is, would that be seen by most other soldiers as a heroic and admirable thing to have done, or as some kind of treachery towards comrades?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

Horse pucky!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:14 PM

given the criticism Kerry has garnered, I wouldn't be surprised if not only a lot of soldiers would view it as treachery, but a lot of the American public would view it that way as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:18 PM

DougR, I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM

Just curious...
Horse Pucky = "Didn't actually happen", or
Horse Pucky = "Did happen, doesn't bother me", or
Horse Pucky = ????


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:23 PM

and speaking of horses asses, as the old adage goes, you can lead 'em to water, but you can't make them drink


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:32 PM

And if what Metchosin said there is true, that would be pretty disturbing. It implies that it's not a question of a few bad apples, (which is perhaps inescapable in any organisation) but the other way round.

But from what we've seen of Guantanamo Bay...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:37 PM

Guantanamo Bay.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 09:47 PM

The proper thing to do, as a soldier, is to come forward and provide information on such gross violations of military regulations...and that is exactly what happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:19 PM

Well danged, this thing is a war, ain't it? So if we gotta do what we gotta do... Kill innocent women & children? Torture a few towel headed camel jockeys? Then do it! I'm with DougR on this one. Hey, let's just coral 'em all into a big area and nuke 'um, right? Hey, they don't understand no Christianity so what good is they? Nuke 'um... Hey, they'd nuke you, wouldn't they???... Might of fact, since them highbrow Europeans ain't gonna give us no support, nuke 'um, too!!! Heck, seein as them commie Californians ain't into supporting what we're trying to do for freedom and democracy, nuke them commies, too. Right, Doug? Nuke 'um'....

The "new and improved" Bobert...

p.s. We ain't takin' no crap from Little Hawk, 'er Amos on this thing 'er we're gonna nuke Canada and California together... Got it???Good... We're gonna have a quiz on it later....


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:22 PM

I just saw the segment on 60 Minutes II. There were men and women soldiers involved with photos of naked male prisoners. Pretty sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:23 PM

I like your attitude, Bobert -- no flinch, no pallor, no qualm -- death unto the enemies wheresoever they may be found. Wow. Would we could have been so determined in Vietnam!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:40 PM

Well gol danged right, Amos! Ain't too late to nuke Vietnam! And China! And Somolia! And Indonesia. And the Phillipines. And California. Heck, where Hanoii Jane Fonda livin' these days. Nuke her, too. Heck, my neighbor right up the toad blowed his leaves into the road. Nuke him while yer at it. Ahhhh, maybe not him come to think about it.... But, hey, ain't Kerry from Massacuttes? Nuke it.

Yeah, and that's fir starters.

God bless America.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:12 PM

"I hear we're torturin' prisoners of war
But I don't believe that stuff no more
Torturin' prisoners is a communist game
And you can bet they're doin' the same
I wish this war was over and through
But what do you expect me to do?"

--Tom Paxton, about 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:42 PM

I just saw those pictures and I am appalled. The soldiers were actually enjoying their atrocities. They were having some kind of fun. What a way to liberate Iraq! What a way to fight terrorism!

I'm sure that this will only stregthen the terrorist movement. I would feel very nervous if I were living in the U.S. This just adds fuel to the fire. Our troops were unsafe before - what will it be like now?

Did anyone catch the bit about the army just trying to please the interrogaters by preparing the prisoners? ... and the fact that the interrogaters were not military personnel and therefore could not be tried by the military? What kind of a government would run a war this way?   

It does make you wonder who would volunteer to fight in this war.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:59 PM

Canada doesn't have a leg to stand on, in one sense. Our Canadian Airborne Division did the same kind of thing in Somalia, being photographed with a teenaged prisoner they were torturing. He, however, died from his wounds. I'm proud to say that the Canadian government actually disbanded this division, which had a mixed history of great heroism and utterly disgusting behaviour.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 02:17 AM

Not long ago in the Spokane Spokesman-Review there was an interview with a young sniper in Iraq. He said that sometimes he liked to shoot an Iraqi and let him scream a while before he finished him off, for the effect on the survivors.

What'll we do with that young sniper and the people in the CBS report when they come back home? Take them out behind the barn and hit them in the back of the head with a stick?

I suppose we could give them jobs in law enforcement....

These people are not isolated psychopaths; this is policy, starting at least as high as brigadier general. And ultimately the responsibility of the Commander in Chief. A terrible way to treat the Iraqis and a terrible way to treat our own soldiers.

How could any decent God bless this behavior, Mr Bush?

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 03:13 AM

There's an interesting movie based on the Stanford Prison Experiment called Das Experiment (The Experiment). Basically, it's an expose of how easily guards can come to be tyrants.

In the 60 minutes case, it's an example of how little forethought went into the occupation of Iraq. America's army can handily beat any army on earth. But it's a fighting army, not an army of occupation, nor an anti-insurgency army. In hindsight, this sort of tragedy seems predictable.

Canada, Belgium, and Italy all sent some of their toughest forces into Somalia. But mostly they were faced with starving locals trying to steal from them. Canadian airborne soldiers slowly beat one young would-be thief to death. The cover-up was pervasive enough that the regiment was disbanded; it's culture deemed too violent. The Belgians didn't do very much to their soldiers, even though a couple of paratroopers were caught on film swinging a Somali child over a blazing fire. However, two Italian generals resigned over the conduct of their troops.

As one Canadian journalist put it: http://www.banadir.com/the_shocking.shtml
"During my frontline reporting in one of the most dangerous places on earth, the terror of being surrounded by trigger happy Foreign Legionnaires, Belgian and Italian contingents of UNITAF, screaming racist slurs and obscenities at the starving population and shooting over the heads of journalists covering the "Big Profile" threw me into darker depression. Luckily many of us survived to tell the tales! But my colleagues, Hoss Maina, Anthony Macharia, Dan Eldon of Reuters news agency and Hansi Krauss of the American news agency Associated Press (AP) were not lucky enough to survive the carnage.

Surprisingly, the American Marines were the most disciplined force in Somalia until they were provoked by forces loyal to the late General..."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 04:31 AM

Steve - Canadian airborne soldiers slowly beat one young would-be thief to death. The cover-up was pervasive enough that the regiment was disbanded; it's culture deemed too violent.

Makes sense to me.

...and Clint

These people are not isolated psychopaths; this is policy, starting at least as high as brigadier general. And ultimately the responsibility of the Commander in Chief.

How do you disband the entire U.S. military, including the Commander in Chief?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 04:52 AM

Doug R - horse pucky???

Its plain old horse shit Doug. Real horse shit thats been wafting your way for a long time. Smell it? Don't deny it, its the real shit Doug. Don't deny it, Doug. Its not pucky.

Do you finally understand that this is real?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:16 AM

I believe the military mindset, regardless of which country they are from, breeds this sort of contemptuous behavior, and condones it until the soldiers are caught. Then the high ranking military offers up a few sacrificial lambs from the lower officer ranks, and it's back to business as usual.

We also aren't hearing much about the violence against the local population that aren't prisoners, but we can be absolutely certain it is happening, because this is the end result of the militarist model of governance by terror. As in our soldiers terrorize their civilians, because any treatment of the "enemy" is justifiable when they are the people shooting back at you.

So, where are all our gung ho Mudcat militarists to defend the honorable military now? Where's Teribus and Big Mick and all the vets who love to bully the forum with their "honor the troops" bullshit when this sort of thing comes to light?

I know one thing for sure, what men, and increasingly, women do in war is no cause for honor. That is just the militarist propaganda machine talking bullshit, to keep the cannon fodder enlisting, and to silence anyone who would dare tell the truth not just about the atrocities of our enemies, but of our own.

And please, don't give me that "war is hell" crap. I'm with you all the way Bobert. Sick and fed up and weary at all this gung ho war shit in God Bless America.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:36 AM

Today's NY Times article about last night's program goes into greater detail about what was on the program.

G.I.'s Are Accused of Abusing Iraqi Captives

Note that our patriotic media uses the word 'abuse' instead of the more damning and accurate word 'torture' to define the behavior. I couldn't even find mention of it in the Washington Post. CBS said at the end of the program that the Pentagon had asked that the story not be broadcast because our troops are under hostile fire circumstances, and CBS claims to have held the story for 2 weeks. Apparently, CBS has no problem covering up US atrocities in Iraq, if it might appear unpatriotic to do so. But, CBS explained, they decided to air the program when it came to light they were about to be scooped by other news outlets.

Makes you proud to be an American at the mercy of our patriotic media, who is apparently colluding with the Pentagon to cover up any and all wrongdoing by the Pentagon and the military and ESPECIALLY of our 'honorable' troops, who are showing Iraqis the kinder, gentler side of American compassionate conservative traditions in places like Falluja, Najaf, and Abu Ghraib.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:43 AM

"It is only a small minority...not representative of the US Forces in Iraq"... What kind of a miserable excuse is that? This is not one guy gone funny in the head - that might be excused. But here we are talking several perpetrators. Who are enjoying their crime, according to the pictures. Who have been encouraged, according to the reports. Whose only crime in the eyes of many (unfortunately) will be that they were caught.

But caught they were. Now, let's see - what did we do to the SS guards that did the same in concentration camps or to the Gestapo interrogators who tortured civilians? Why should these criminals receive a lighter punishment? Why should their families not be brought to shame? Because families that breed vermin have their own share to pay for. Damn them all forever.

And even this would not in fact heal the rift that these new atrocities have caused. Too late for that. The whirlwind is ours to reap. Boy, have we earned it - in spades.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:54 AM

I'm with you all the way El Greko. The "defense" of the behavior that most galled me, was when one of main guys who is up for court martial claimed the atrocities occured because they weren't "properly trained".

As human beings, apparently.

But here is the kicker--that same guy who claims the soldiers weren't properly trained, works for the State of Virginia prison system as a civilian. But you often see this same behavior and mindset from civilian police and prison guards. I believe there is a particular personality type, and not a very positive one, that gravitates towards these jobs where abuse of power is so often an issue.

Doesn't give one much hope for the human race.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

Oh, and I forgot to mention, his State of Virginia prison system colleagues all gave the guy glowing, positive reviews, as did his family and friends.

People sure are willing to go a long way to delude themselves about someone close to them, aren't they? Which is why the "honor the troops" propaganda is so powerful. It is directed at the families and friends and work colleagues of those serving, because in a dysfunctional, co-dependent system, it keeps everybody in line and lying to cover for each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:01 AM

Yesterday the headlines in n.y.c. read bombing blitz. apropriate. remember the first use of that term, germany's unprovoked war on humanity. we go to a war "just in case" led by the lies of our banal little guttersnipe leader and now we get exposed as torturers beyond the "acceptable" toture of war. I predict among the liberties being banned in this nation which once I knew, will be a ban against personal cameras for our storm troopers long before they ban torture.
larry


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:07 AM

I do pity the whistleblower. I don't think they need to worry about Iraqi fire as much as their own, shooting them in the back.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM

Horse pucky? Doug, I remember Me Lai and Lt. Calley. Was that also horse pucky?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:18 AM

That was kendall, not jacqui


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:26 AM

It is war. It is not remotely surprising. In wartime people do terrible things, especially young soldiers who are being shot at by people who are not playing by any rules themselves. Wars wreck rules, make people do terrible things, degrade people and countries.

That is why they should be taken more seriously by people who propose to get into them.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:35 AM

Except the soldiers who are guilty of these atrocities WEREN'T being shot at. They were safely ensconced inside an American prison. Which makes it all the more disturbing.

And as I said, I will not take on the apologists' "war is hell" mantle. That just excuses the military, and leaves the wall between military "values" and civilian intact, unchallenged, and easily redeemed by the military propaganda machine.

Maybe it is time we held ourselves to the actual standard the propaganda machine claims for it's 'honorable' soldiers, and the troops AND the military AND the politicians accountable.

Wouldn't that be the American thing to do?

Naw. Time for another dirty, sleazy cover-up. An election is on the horizon, and we have two pro-war candidates running the nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:55 AM

"Torture" is an exaggeration, since threatening harm isn't the same as inflicting it, but the actual CBS article certainly recounts illegal abuse of POWs. The military spokesperson, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, said that "I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand that is not the Army. The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect my army."

This is the second time that members of an Army Reserve unit involved in PW control have been cited for gross failure to follow regulations. While relief of the unit commander for neglect of duty and filing criminal charges against those actually involved, which happened the first time and appears to be happening again, is a necessary first step, it appears obvious that both training and oversight are lacking.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM

What cover-up? Apparently these things happened. Now what?

If it were a civil court, perhaps the soldiers involved would be charged with crimes against people. And perhaps they would plead insanity.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Strick
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM

Well, we have 6 guys being court marshalled and their commanders relieved of duty and under investigation. The military is throwing the book at them. No doubt everyone in the theater knows what's happened and is working their tails off to avoid any appearance of similar behavior. No doubt the way this is being handled confuses the Iraqis who are used to Uday getting away with much worse behavior for years.

Sounds appalling (I didn't see the report), but what ever gave you the idea that if you round up 130,000 people and send them anywhere you aren't going to have the usual percentages of the best and the worst of them?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:09 AM

In virtually every war there are incidents of soldiers on both sides behaving in a brutal and unjustified way to enemy soldiers who are taken prisoner...as well as executing them in an illegal fashion.

Like political shenanigans and dishonesty (which happens all the time) it only becomes news occasionally. When it does, those who have an axe to grind make a big deal out of it...from whichever angle suits them. Those who are against the war yell and scream about it, because it bolsters their anti-war position. Those who are for the war say brilliant things like "Horse pucky!" :-)

Grow up, people. American soldiers have brutally treated prisoners (on occasion) in just about every war they have ever fought...and so have Russian, German, Japanese, British, French, and all other soldiers. Most of the time you just don't hear about it, that's all.

This is a case of getting upset about what should be bloody obvious: war is an immense crime against humanity. It is a failure in common sense and civilized behaviour. Pre-emptive war is illegal aggression. Aggressor powers are criminals. Their soldiers are ordinary folks placed in a horrible position, and some of them go a bit crazy under the strain. The blame should be placed on the political commanders who sent them to war, more than on the soldiers, but it is appropriate that the soldiers should be disciplined for mistreating prisoners.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:15 AM

I just read the AP report, which seems to be the same as what appeared in the NYT. I think that making a blanket condemnation of the entire military because of the actions of a few is akin to saying all African-Americans are vicious drug addicts because a very few are.

During the Second World War (and I'm not getting into the rightness or wrongness of it here), the vast majority of the German troops did not gas Jews or destroy Ourodur or massacre prisoners at Malmedy. Those who did have been and are being sought out and punished, in some cases executed. Rightly and justly so.

Those in the military of any nation who abuse the power given to them -- hell, anyone who abuses other by the power given to them! -- should be sought out and punished. And those involved in this seem to be.

Prison guards have long had the ability, and some have had the inclination, to abuse the prisoners in their control. That most do not speaks well of humanity. That a few do speak ill of it. Those that abuse should, at least in my opinion, find out what it was like for those they abused....


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:33 AM

Kendall...Kerry is not pro war.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:46 AM

If Kerry is very pro this war, and says so every chance he gets.

As to the charge that these sorts of behaviors should be "expected" because this is "war" is bloody inexcusable. And so is the claim that this is just a few bad apples. That sort of logic flies in the very face of what people committed to ending the atrocity of war AND war's atrocities, work for each and every day. Those brave people are the human beings who have brought us things like the Geneva Convention.

Or are we going to just cover our eyes, look away, and read the next book in the 'Left Behind' series here?

No, I don't accept that this behavior can be so easily dismissed. This is a behavior that is encouraged by militaries around the world, including our own. The facts of this case SHOULD trouble the calm waters of the military propagandists and apologists, many of whom are now chiming in.

I ain't buying it. There are human beings around the world that see this sort of thing for what it is. A chance to sacrifice a few grunts to the media circus, and continue on with business as usual.

Throwing the book at them, is it? Well, that suggests it won't happen again because throwing the book at them is a deterrence, right? Isn't that how the military logic goes? Treat the sacrificial lambs harshly, while the same old thing keeps happening. When you train and reward human beings to be vicious, to kill innocents, to torment 'the enemy' this is exactly where the road leads. To a veneer of control over human slaughter, and calling it 'honorable' behavior.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:48 AM

And Amos, it is clear you didn't see the program, so how about you just quit talking out your ass about things you know nothing about?

You didn't see the photograph of the Iraqi prisoner presumed beaten to death, all wrapped up like a Christmas present, apparently. Not an atrocity? I suggest you don't know the meaning of the word.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Stu
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:49 AM

This was bound to happen, given the way soldiers in the US army seem to be taught to treat people in countries they occupy. They dehumanise them by giving them names like 'gook'. This makes them easier to kill and mistreat (the Nazis did the same thing with the Jews and Russians).

The fact that the US military doesn't care about Iraqi civilians and is happy to fire into residential areas and shoot people dead who look like they're up to no good (regardless of evidence one way or another) means when their soldiers are put in charge of prisons, they don't see the people inside as human.

This is the real irony of the Iraq debacle - the most powerful nation becoming more like the enemy they profess to despise.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:50 AM

GUEST, you are an unthinking puppet of John Ashcroft.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peter T.
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 09:55 AM

You don't have to be shot at to be influenced by having people in your own army being shot and killed and blown up by un-uniformed people who do not play by any rules except they want you gone.

Armies eventually mimic their enemy. De Gaulle talked about this -- in the end he left Algeria because he did not want to lose France. You are dragged down into inhuman behaviour over time. It is a constant and terrible struggle to remain remotely decent in war. It is not just the soldiers: the home front degrades as well (there is lots of evidence of this). Things become acceptable that weren't when you began.

yours,

Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:32 AM

I think you missed, Guest...maybe your hand was shaking.   You -- having seen 60 minutes -- are now an authority on the atrocity of war, no doubt. My question is -- what is it you think should happen? No court martial? Summary execution? Relieve them of their uniforms?

I can promise you is much -- whatever you saw on 60 Minutes, the soldiers in question have seen far worse.

I think you and I agree on one thing -- they should not be there, and they should be taken out of there.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Cruiser
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 10:54 AM

I've always considered women a bit more moral than men. Maybe it was a result my early southern upbringing. To see women involved in this action chips away at that perception.

The times ARE changing...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM

One of the most unfortunate things that has happened in society in the last few decades is that women have been actively and tacitly encouraged to take on the most unhealthy and disfunctional negative behaviours which used to be seen as appropriate only for men...

This amounts to enslaving women in the same destructive nonsense that men have been enslaved by for centuries, and it is not a step forward for either females or humanity in general.

The Sy$tem knows no shame.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:20 AM

I think women are every bit as vulnerable to manipulation through the desire to be "one of the guys" and nowhere is that more evident than in a culture like the military that so strictly enforces conformity.

PeterT, I don't disagree with anything you say. I know your writing style to be concise, but your comments are coming across to me as a being emotionally distant to the point of appearing complacent about this. I find it difficult to believe that would be your intent.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

There was a lot of evidence surfacing in reports out of Iraq last summer that this was going on. But back then, everyone was still all gung ho and patriotic about things, and utterly dismissed the mere suggestion of American troops engaging in such dishonorable behavior, don't forget. And no institution has been more gung ho patriotic than the American media. To the shock and consternation of the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:42 AM

What do you want, Judas goat? People say that abusing others is right? A column of lock-step robots you can lead to your master, John Ashcroft?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

Photos with article.


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